Poll: Do you feel sympathetic to Putin? Did he really have no choice?

[Denim]

Putins argument is that Ukraine is full of Nazis. These nazis want closer ties with the west. This represents a threat to Russian security so an invasion was justified.

 

Some on here agree with this.

 

Would they then agree that :

 

North Korea is full of communists led by an autocrat. They want closer ties to other autocratic states like Russia and China. This represents a security threat to South Korea and its allies therefore an invasion of North Korea is justified.

 

Let us be quite clear. Ukraine did not invade Russia. Russias invasion of Ukraine has caused previously neutral countries to apply for the protection of NATO membership. Exactly what Putin does not want.

 

So how is Russia better off now than it was before the war ?  It could have lived it peace with its neighbours as it previously had but instead Putin chose an unneccessary war.

 

 

[simple1]

On 5/13/2024 at 7:36 AM, Pique Dard said:

During the Second World War, Stepan Bandera, a Ukrainian who served as a senior officer in the dreaded SS division, which represented the very essence of Nazism, was made a national hero of Ukraine by Zelisnky

 

he was not recognised as a 'national hero' by Zelenskyy, but by a  previous President, Viktor Yushchenko.

Edited May 18 by simple1

[candide]

On 5/17/2024 at 2:53 AM, Denim said:

Putins argument is that Ukraine is full of Nazis. These nazis want closer ties with the west. This represents a threat to Russian security so an invasion was justified.

 

Some on here agree with this.

 

Would they then agree that :

 

North Korea is full of communists led by an autocrat. They want closer ties to other autocratic states like Russia and China. This represents a security threat to South Korea and its allies therefore an invasion of North Korea is justified.

 

Let us be quite clear. Ukraine did not invade Russia. Russias invasion of Ukraine has caused previously neutral countries to apply for the protection of NATO membership. Exactly what Putin does not want.

 

So how is Russia better off now than it was before the war ?  It could have lived it peace with its neighbours as it previously had but instead Putin chose an unneccessary war.

 

 

Putin needs a war in order to hide the fact that he's an incompetent leader. Russia's GDP is at the level of Italy's GDP. And it's only because energy prices are currently high! 😆

[Gweiloman]

13 hours ago, candide said:

Putin needs a war in order to hide the fact that he's an incompetent leader. Russia's GDP is at the level of Italy's GDP. And it's only because energy prices are currently high! 😆

No matter how incompetent you think Putin might be, he can’t be worse than the previous two and future American presidents.

 

America’s blundering president has emboldened the axis of evil in its quest to destroy the free world

 

No, not from RT News. From British media, the Telegraph 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/05/15/putin-xi-handed-terrifying-victory-by-gutless-biden/

[candide]

5 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

No matter how incompetent you think Putin might be, he can’t be worse than the previous two and future American presidents.

 

America’s blundering president has emboldened the axis of evil in its quest to destroy the free world

 

No, not from RT News. From British media, the Telegraph 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/05/15/putin-xi-handed-terrifying-victory-by-gutless-biden/

No matter how much you're like to believe it, it's not corroborated by facts.

The current GDP level in Russia is at around the same level as in 2013. Do I need to show the GDP evolution of the U.S. since 2013?

https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/RUS/russia/gdp-gross-domestic-product

 

Putin has been unable to develop the economy and the wellbeing of Russian citizen. That's why he needed a war.

Edited May 19 by candide

[jayceenik]

I've followed the Ukraine events since 2014.

I respect Putin. I see him as a great statesman and who has put Russia back on its feet since he took power.

I'm on his side 100%. I wish Russia success in that US against Russia war by Ukrainian proxy.

The US should push their marionette Z to accept that Ukraine should not be a Nuclear missile NATO threat at the border with Russia and start peace talks with Putin.

And the US should call it quits. They have failed to destroy Russia but have succeded in weakening Europe (a long held goal) and making it a client for their expensive eco-disaster LNG by blowing up the pipelines that were bringing much cheaper and better Russian gas to Germany.

One has to be awed by how successful US propaganda has been in painting Putin as a madman (orc?) who wants to recreate some tsarist Empire of yore.

Man alive! A WWII SS received a double standing ovation in the Canadian Parliament recently. Babi Yar, anybody?  

That SS was lauded admiringly by all these Canadians because he had fought against Russia in WWII and was thus a hero to be applauded.

Insulting those brave Canadians who died on Juno Beach in Normandy. Russia was on our side in WWII against the Nazis. you know...

 

 

 

Edited May 20 by jayceenik

[Gweiloman]

18 hours ago, candide said:

No matter how much you're like to believe it, it's not corroborated by facts.

The current GDP level in Russia is at around the same level as in 2013. Do I need to show the GDP evolution of the U.S. since 2013?

https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/RUS/russia/gdp-gross-domestic-product

 

Putin has been unable to develop the economy and the wellbeing of Russian citizen. That's why he needed a war.

GDP is but one measure of how a country’s economy is doing. In many respects, it’s a flawed measurement as it takes into account government spending, interest rates, borrowings, financial services etc. There are plenty of videos by qualified economists explaining this. By this measure, Xi Jin Ping is the most competent leader in the world and most of the European leaders fare among the worst.

 

Leadership is subjective and qualitative. It’s about navigating the challenges faced and how well they are dealt with. It’s about what the population wants and expects and how these are met. It’s about how the leader is viewed on the global stage. It’s about how feared he/she is among his/her adversaries. No one fears a weak opponent. It’s only strong and competent leaders that are feared by their enemies.

 

Imo, Putin ticks a lot of the above boxes, as does XJP.

[bamnutsak]

The question is, what happens after Putin dies?

 

I watched this film over the weekend, awesome: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KWg2nTYmk8

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Gweiloman said:

It’s about how feared he/she is among his/her adversaries. No one fears a weak opponent. It’s only strong and competent leaders that are feared by their enemies.

 

This reminds me of the Monty Python skit "Spanish Inquisition".

[VBer]

32 minutes ago, bamnutsak said:

The question is, what happens after Putin dies?

There is an opinion if the Putin dies then there is a chance that the more harsh guy could come to power. Using tactical nukes and mass bombing to Ukrainian cities, with much more deaths. This could lead to growing current war to WW3 and the end of the world. So better to keep soft leader Putn alive 😀.

[JoseThailand]

6 minutes ago, VBer said:

There is an opinion if the Putin dies then there is a chance that the more harsh guy could come to power. Using tactical nukes and mass bombing to Ukrainian cities, with much more deaths. This could lead to growing current war to WW3 and the end of the world. So better to keep soft leader Putn alive 😀.

 

Not gonna happen. In Putin's circle, all they care about is money. They don't need this war, they all want their children to live in Europe and the US, they buy properties there, open bank accounts. When Putin dies, they all will be happy to get all this back and the war will be over.

[VBer]

16 minutes ago, JoseThailand said:

they all will be happy to get all this back and the war will be over.

Everybody in Russian politics understands that this is not going to happen, at least for the next 20-30 years. Before the war there been a knowledge that the right of private property in Europe and US is fundamental. But the West quickly proved that it been a myth, quickly confiscating property by just passport color, not bothering to know are these people have connection to the state or not. Immunization aganist keeping money and properties there will work for some decades at least.

[JoseThailand]

44 minutes ago, VBer said:

Everybody in Russian politics understands that this is not going to happen, at least for the next 20-30 years. Before the war there been a knowledge that the right of private property in Europe and US is fundamental. But the West quickly proved that it been a myth, quickly confiscating property by just passport color, not bothering to know are these people have connection to the state or not. Immunization aganist keeping money and properties there will work for some decades at least.

 

Hahaha in Russia they confiscate your assets and put you in jail if you publicly say anything against the war. Freedom of speech, private property? Forget about it in Putin's Russia. And I am Russian, I know this first hand

[VBer]

1 minute ago, JoseThailand said:

Hahaha in Russia they confiscate your assets and put you in jail if you publicly say anything against the war.

West confiscates property not because you said something or did something, but just because of your nationality.

[JoseThailand]

2 minutes ago, VBer said:

West confiscates property not because you said something or did something, but just because of your nationality.

 

Complete nonsense. They confiscated (froze, to be exact) only property of sanctioned individuals. I have Russian friends living and working in Europe and US, nobody confiscated anything from them.

[VBer]

8 minutes ago, JoseThailand said:

Complete nonsense. They confiscated (froze, to be exact) only property of sanctioned individuals.

 If you never heard about something, that doesnt means it not exists. There are a lot of private investors at Russia who been holding foreign (mostly European and US) equities with Euroclear as the depository. All these assets are frozen now, just by passport color.  Moreover, one the stock Russian exchanges (Spbexchange) been sanctioned and thousands usual people who been holding US, European, and moreover, China assets got all their funds frozen.

[JoseThailand]

8 minutes ago, VBer said:

 If you never heard about something, that doesnt means it not exists. There are a lot of private investors at Russia who been holding foreign (mostly European and US) equities with Euroclear as the depository. All these assets are frozen now, just by passport color.  Moreover, one the stock Russian exchanges (Spbexchange) been sanctioned and thousands usual people who been holding US, European, and moreover, China assets got all their funds frozen.

 

You don't have a clue. Euroclear froze the assets of Russian financial institutions, all according to official sanctions. They don't even work with private customers, only institutions. 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 20 by JoseThailand

[VBer]

2 minutes ago, JoseThailand said:

Euroclear froze the assets of Russian financial institutions, all according to official sanctions. They don't even work with private customers, only institutions. 

That's absolutely right. People been buying European and US assets through brokers. There are dozens of brokers with millions customers accumulating assets, some maybe using infrastructure of bigger brokers. At end the end of this chain was Euroclear, freezing all assets. Whatever mechanism it is, people who have no any connection to state facing their investments to West frozen, and this will work as a vaccine to do not invest there in future.

[JoseThailand]

11 minutes ago, VBer said:

That's absolutely right. People been buying European and US assets through brokers. There are dozens of brokers with millions customers accumulating assets, some maybe using infrastructure of bigger brokers. At end the end of this chain was Euroclear, freezing all assets. Whatever mechanism it is, people who have no any connection to state facing their investments to West frozen, and this will work as a vaccine to do not invest there in future.

 

If you keep your money with Russian banks or institutions, you bear all the risks involved. 

[candide]

4 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

GDP is but one measure of how a country’s economy is doing. In many respects, it’s a flawed measurement as it takes into account government spending, interest rates, borrowings, financial services etc. There are plenty of videos by qualified economists explaining this. By this measure, Xi Jin Ping is the most competent leader in the world and most of the European leaders fare among the worst.

 

Leadership is subjective and qualitative. It’s about navigating the challenges faced and how well they are dealt with. It’s about what the population wants and expects and how these are met. It’s about how the leader is viewed on the global stage. It’s about how feared he/she is among his/her adversaries. No one fears a weak opponent. It’s only strong and competent leaders that are feared by their enemies.

 

Imo, Putin ticks a lot of the above boxes, as does XJP.

GDP is not a perfect indicator, but it is the main one. The 'quality' of GDP is also relevant. In this respect, it's also a fail for Russia, as natural resources represent around 60% of its GDP. A bit like some African countries....

 

Of course the population number must also be factored in, as your remark about China indicates. With 144 million inhabitants, Russia is at the same GDP level as Italy with 59 million. And Italy has few natural resources.

 

Considering its natural resources, as well as the quality of its human resources (in particular in S&T), Russia should be like California. Putin is a complete failure.

 

The comparison with China is eloquent, not because of the raw GDP number  but because of its growth (quantitatively and qualitatively). Russia used to more developed than China, and now it's a laggard compared to it. Yes, unlike Putin, the successive Chinese governments have been quite competent in this respect.

[Gweiloman]

23 minutes ago, candide said:

GDP is not a perfect indicator, but it is the main one. The 'quality' of GDP is also relevant. In this respect, it's also a fail for Russia, as natural resources represent around 60% of its GDP. A bit like some African countries....

 

Of course the population number must also be factored in, as your remark about China indicates. With 144 million inhabitants, Russia is at the same GDP level as Italy with 59 million. And Italy has few natural resources.

 

Considering its natural resources, as well as the quality of its human resources (in particular in S&T), Russia should be like California. Putin is a complete failure.

 

The comparison with China is eloquent, not because of the raw GDP number  but because of its growth (quantitatively and qualitatively). Russia used to more developed than China, and now it's a laggard compared to it. Yes, unlike Putin, the successive Chinese governments have been quite competent in this respect.

Most countries used to be more developed than China. If I’m not mistaken, until the 70’s, China was one of the poorest countries in the world.

 

In my view, China’s meteoric rise in the world is primarily down to its system of governance. One party, promotions based on merit, no outside influence. One does not become a leader in the CPC without having proven themselves over and over again, from grassroots level, XJP included. If China had been a democratic country, it would probably be where India currently is. Developing countries need strong leaders with vision. LKY is one such leader.

 

Putin inherited a very weak Russia from Yeltsin. It’s going to take many more years for Russia to rank among the biggest economies in the world. Considering the fact that the west’s Cold War mentality towards Russia never truly went away, he hasn’t done too bad a job, in my opinion. It’s GDP may not be among the highest but it is universally accepted as one of three superpowers in the world today.

[candide]

6 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Most countries used to be more developed than China. If I’m not mistaken, until the 70’s, China was one of the poorest countries in the world.

 

In my view, China’s meteoric rise in the world is primarily down to its system of governance. One party, promotions based on merit, no outside influence. One does not become a leader in the CPC without having proven themselves over and over again, from grassroots level, XJP included. If China had been a democratic country, it would probably be where India currently is. Developing countries need strong leaders with vision. LKY is one such leader.

 

Putin inherited a very weak Russia from Yeltsin. It’s going to take many more years for Russia to rank among the biggest economies in the world. Considering the fact that the west’s Cold War mentality towards Russia never truly went away, he hasn’t done too bad a job, in my opinion. It’s GDP may not be among the highest but it is universally accepted as one of three superpowers in the world today.

Don't forget that its political system was the reason why China was a poor country in the 70s. It started to develop when it became less autocratic, and in particular less dependent from a "leader". Had China been democratic from the start, it would likely be more developed than now (just have a look at what other Chinese people have achived in Taiwan, HK or Singapore).

 

Also don't forget that, while the Chinese have been quite smart in catching-up, they have done so by tapping into the knowledge base created by democratic countries.

 

About Putin, there is no rule which says that a country with plenty of natural resources and well qualified human resources must need 40 years to develop its economy. There is also no rule which says it is not a very bad performance when the current GDP is at the same level as in 2013. Which other country has fared so bad since 2013?

 

Putin is incompetent, he failed to develop the Russian economy, he failed to develop the well-being of its citizen, he even failed to preserve the size of the Russian population.

That's why he needs a war.

[VBer]

2 hours ago, JoseThailand said:

If you keep your money with Russian banks or institutions, you bear all the risks involved

It is not Russian financial institutions who frizzed assets of usual people, it was Euroclear. Assets invested locally through the same financial institutions remain fully accessible and safe. Well, lesson about property rights at West is learned.

Edited May 20 by VBer

[JoseThailand]

1 hour ago, VBer said:

It is not Russian financial institutions who frizzed assets of usual people, it was Euroclear. Assets invested locally through the same financial institutions remain fully accessible and safe. Well, lesson about property rights at West is learned.

 

It was Russian financial institutions that got sanctioned, and rightly so. Ordinary people suffer because of the actions of their government.

 

I myself had to leave Russia long time ago because I don't wanna bear the risks associated with living in Russia and keeping my money there. And now I understand how right I was!

 

 

Edited May 20 by JoseThailand

[BobBKK]

4 hours ago, JoseThailand said:

 

You don't have a clue. Euroclear froze the assets of Russian financial institutions, all according to official sanctions. They don't even work with private customers, only institutions. 

 

 

 

 

 "official sanctions" made up as they went along? The trust that was banking is GONE and will never return - it is STEALING, and you know it.

[BobBKK]

26 minutes ago, JoseThailand said:

 

It was Russian financial institutions that got sanctioned, and rightly so. Ordinary people suffer because of the actions of their government.

 

I myself had to leave Russia long time ago because I don't wanna bear the risks associated with living in Russia and keeping my money there. And now I understand how right I was!

 

 

 Do you think things were better before Putin? Seriously? I first went to Russia before Putin, and it was chaos. I went many times after Putin—not perfect, obviously, but ordered and structured. 

[JoseThailand]

10 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 Do you think things were better before Putin? Seriously? I first went to Russia before Putin, and it was chaos. I went many times after Putin—not perfect, obviously, but ordered and structured. 

 

You think I remember how things were before Putin? That was 24+ years ago, I was a kid

[Gweiloman]

4 hours ago, candide said:

Don't forget that its political system was the reason why China was a poor country in the 70s. It started to develop when it became less autocratic, and in particular less dependent from a "leader". Had China been democratic from the start, it would likely be more developed than now (just have a look at what other Chinese people have achived in Taiwan, HK or Singapore).

 

Also don't forget that, while the Chinese have been quite smart in catching-up, they have done so by tapping into the knowledge base created by democratic countries.

 

About Putin, there is no rule which says that a country with plenty of natural resources and well qualified human resources must need 40 years to develop its economy. There is also no rule which says it is not a very bad performance when the current GDP is at the same level as in 2013. Which other country has fared so bad since 2013?

 

Putin is incompetent, he failed to develop the Russian economy, he failed to develop the well-being of its citizen, he even failed to preserve the size of the Russian population.

That's why he needs a war.

Let’s agree to disagree. At least we had an intellectual discussion without the usual trolls jumping in with cries of propaganda and apologists and communists (this last description is the favourite of one particular poster who shall remain unnamed).

[MicroB]

On 5/13/2024 at 4:36 AM, Pique Dard said:

During the Second World War, Stepan Bandera, a Ukrainian who served as a senior officer in the dreaded SS division, which represented the very essence of Nazism, was made a national hero of Ukraine by Zelisnky

 

He actually spent most of WW2 first in a concentration camp, Sachsenhausen in 1942, then house arrest by 1944. Early in the war, he was certainly a collaborator, but the Germans arrested him as they feared  revolt. Right at the end, he was part of the Ukrainian National Committee, that was trying to extricate Ukrainian units from German command; presumably he thought the Nazis were finished, and he wanted to contunue the fight in Ukraine. He was a Right Wing Nationalist, and a bit of a thug, but never served in any of the SS Divisions (the SS consisted of many Divisions, most of which were little different by War's end from regular army) with any kind of rank, let alone a "senior officer".

 

On the otherhand, Putin is very interested in rehabilitating Stalin, and this started long before Russia's seizures of Ukrainian territory.

 

Nazi sympathies seem to be common in that part of the world, not just confined to Ukraine. The Russian army is full of them, judging from tattoos (which the Russians were using as a measure to identify so-called Ukrainian Nazis). I would put that down to people of Putin's generation who taught their youth a twisted history of WW2. leading to political immaturity. Putin might think in his head he's another Peter the great (though it seems his real hero is Czar Nicholas 1), but in reality, he's a racist, homophobic thug , with views that are indistinguishable from German Nazis, with the added touch that he's out to financially rape Russia. He doesn't have a political ideology that genuinely seeks to better the lot of the Russian people, hence he's quite happy to depopulate the Russian far east of its menfolk in his mincemeat tactics. He holds the average Russian in contempt, a serf, in the same way the Czars did.

 

Russia, Belarus and Ukraine are politically immature. The idea of political opposition that doesn't involve thumping each other over a disagreement hasn't yet take root. A good article:

 

https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/ukraine/2023/01/ukraine-stepan-bandera-nationalist

 

Thanks to people with mindsets like Putin, the non-Russian former Soviet States are denied a legitimate history. In wartime, people do look to historic heroes, even anti-heroes. Many countries do this; some of the leaders of the Irish uprising had some shady views. Subhas Chandra Bose is venerated as a hero of India, even though he chose to actively side with Nazi Germany and Japan, and recruited Indian soldiers into his army to fight other Indian soldiers, who had taken a different oath. Indian National Army veterans received a pension but WW2 Indian Army veterans did not

 

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GGJpbTDW0AAyt33.jpg:large

 

[Pique Dard]

"but never served in any of the SS Divisions"

wrong! but Wikpedia has deleted all the concerned pictures. that said, i respect your opinion but i totally disagree with you because the link and you write is exactly a reflection of mainstream mass media, which don't even bother to inform their readers that this war began in 2014. 

i say it again! if "the politicians" wanted people to know the truth, they wouldn't have banned news from Russia. i, too, condemned Putin, as do CNN CBS,BBC and so on, until a friend gave me access to russian television. since then, i've understood... 

[Gweiloman]

4 hours ago, Pique Dard said:

"but never served in any of the SS Divisions"

wrong! but Wikpedia has deleted all the concerned pictures. that said, i respect your opinion but i totally disagree with you because the link and you write is exactly a reflection of mainstream mass media, which don't even bother to inform their readers that this war began in 2014. 

i say it again! if "the politicians" wanted people to know the truth, they wouldn't have banned news from Russia. i, too, condemned Putin, as do CNN CBS,BBC and so on, until a friend gave me access to russian television. since then, i've understood... 

Excellent points. Another thing about Wikipedia is that anyone can “contribute” to it. Guess which country has the resources and desire to skew views by means of Wikipedia articles.