New Tax Rules for Expats in Thailand Spark Concern

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Ben Zioner said:

You mean those ridiculous 190000 ? 

Yes Ben, I mean the 190K over age 65 allowance, which may be ridiculous to you but is very important to others.

[Rimmer]

A double flame has been removed

@Geordieabroad

[atpeace]

32 minutes ago, VBF said:

How?  If they have their money sent to a non-Thai account, and then tell the Thai tax dept that remittances are from savings earned a long time ago.

This doesn't affect me but I really don't see how it can be enforced unless and until it's tied in with visa renewals.

If you reported the income to your home country, you are correct.  If you are dodging taxes you are taking a minimal risk.  If the tax rev department audits your return and ask for your home country's return to verify the income was reported, it would end badly.  This is what revenue departments do and taxes and penalties would be due.  Odds of this happening? Even in the USA an audit is rare but the consequences can be dire.  I just pay what is required like an honest citizen and have no worries.  I have done many questionable things but tax avoidance is not one of them.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, atpeace said:

If you reported the income to your home country, you are correct.  If you are dodging taxes you are taking a minimal risk.  If the tax rev department audits your return and ask for your home country's return to verify the income was reported, it would end badly.  This is what revenue departments do and taxes and penalties would be due.  Odds of this happening? Even in the USA an audit is rare but the consequences can be dire.  I just pay what is required like an honest citizen and have no worries.  I have done many questionable things but tax avoidance is not one of them.

Tax evasion, not avoidance.

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, atpeace said:

same thing:) Maybe not 

Tax avoidance uses legal measures to reduce tax.

 

Tax evasion involves any illegal steps to not pay tax and is a crime.

 

It's a very important distinction.

[atpeace]

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Tax avoidance uses legal measures to reduce tax.

 

Tax evasion involves any illegal steps to not pay tax and is a crime.

 

It's a very important distinction.

Thanks and I agree.

[VBF]

9 minutes ago, atpeace said:

If you reported the income to your home country, you are correct.  If you are dodging taxes you are taking a minimal risk.  If the tax rev department audits your return and ask for your home country's return to verify the income was reported, it would end badly.  This is what revenue departments do and taxes and penalties would be due.  Odds of this happening? Even in the USA an audit is rare but the consequences can be dire.  I just pay what is required like an honest citizen and have no worries.  I have done many questionable things but tax avoidance is not one of them.

I disagree inasmuch as the income may have occurred many years ago and if you're using savings derived from that original income you're not breaking the rules. I'm only familiar with UK tax rules but in your home country you're well within the rules and wouldn't even have to show that money on your tax return. (I'm ignoring any interest element as it's irrelevant for this discussion)

 

So in the (IMO) unlikely event of the Thai authorities asking for your home tax return you'd still be in the clear.

[Trevor Collins]

Does anyone think this peasant present government is going to last forever? Sooner or later the ordinary Thais are going to rise up against these dinosaurs and sweep them away. Then they will have a government that can do joined-up thinking and realise ex-pats make a significant contribution to the Thai economy through passive taxation and support of their wives and children. Don't bite the hand that feeds them and supports businesses in the LOS. BTW all my income will be derived from a state pension and a small occupational pension; no work permit, no tax, not currently based in Thailand.  

[atpeace]

7 minutes ago, VBF said:

I disagree inasmuch as the income may have occurred many years ago and if you're using savings derived from that original income you're not breaking the rules. I'm only familiar with UK tax rules but in your home country you're well within the rules and wouldn't even have to show that money on your tax return. (I'm ignoring any interest element as it's irrelevant for this discussion)

 

So in the (IMO) unlikely event of the Thai authorities asking for your home tax return you'd still be in the clear.

Your post I was replying to was in regards to digital nomads.  If a tax return was audited and a home country return asked for to  to show taxes were paid on income it would be easily verifiable if taxes were paid.  Can you lie and claim no income to both countries - yes.  The odds of being caught are probably slim but not impossible.  I personally wouldn't do it but up to you.  It is harder these days not to leave digital evidence of income made throughout the world but I'm sure those in the know have good methods to evade taxes.  

 

 

 

 

[VBF]

13 minutes ago, atpeace said:

Your post I was replying to was in regards to digital nomads.  If a tax return was audited and a home country return asked for to  to show taxes were paid on income it would be easily verifiable if taxes were paid.  Can you lie and claim no income to both countries - yes.  The odds of being caught are probably slim but not impossible.  I personally wouldn't do it but up to you.  It is harder these days not to leave digital evidence of income made throughout the world but I'm sure those in the know have good methods to evade taxes.  

 

I see - on that you're probably right but of course a digital nomad might have old savings that (s)he could show as their source of remittances to Thailand, but I take your points. 

[atpeace]

Odd thread! You have people that should be paying taxes but are not and  trying to verify if they can still get away with not paying taxes.  Many of the other posters that at worst will have to file a tax return but pay no taxes haven't even skimmed the new regs and somehow have drawn hilarious conclusions based on what?  The search for answers has only increased the anxiety level of xpats.   

[atpeace]

1 minute ago, VBF said:

I see - on that you're probably right but of course a digital nomad might have old savings that (s)he could show as their source of remittances to Thailand, but I take your points. 

I agree. Easy avoidance or or evasion 🙂 depending on your perspective.

[atpeace]

Smokin Joe said:

You should watch the video. You wouldn't have made this stupid comment if you had.

atpeace reply:

You seem like the type that loses it over small altercations.  Chill dude - I simply disagree. 

 

There were at least 4 bouncers and two Farangs.  Should have they separated and chose two bouncers to confront the Farangs? Have you ever been in the middle of a violent brawl?  This was not that bad. When you have  extra limbs to throw they are much more likely to connect with the faces of the disadvantage party.   From what I see it ended OK and the Farangs are probably out drinking already. Maybe they moved on to another bar the same night.

 

========================================================

 

My reply to Smokin Joe's silly post from the original thread that was closed.  Nailed that prediction - 555.  The man told police it was no big deal and they were at another bar down the street soon after.

[Autonuaq]

14 hours ago, motdaeng said:

the big open question is, will the new tax law be enforced by the tax revenue department?

 

 

They can enforce this easy, for example to show that you have paid your taxes when you have a visa renewal or at other applications the Government is involved with. They can do this when you are leaving the country or entering, there are many ways to enforce this in an easy comfortable way for the Government.

[Srikcir]

5 hours ago, Presnock said:

showing the tax forms from his/her country in order to stay another 5 years

Did that for application for the visa. Not an issue for extension other than you must not redact anything in submitted forms. As for application and 5-year extension, there is no return for current year but I can get online for current year a personalized statement of retirement benefits (from federal government in my case) that will provide details about your monthly pension.

[Rimmer]

A post containing not one but two forbidden sources has been removed.

 

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[Mike Lister]

38 minutes ago, Autonuaq said:

They can enforce this easy, for example to show that you have paid your taxes when you have a visa renewal or at other applications the Government is involved with. They can do this when you are leaving the country or entering, there are many ways to enforce this in an easy comfortable way for the Government.

I have enough money in Thailand to live on without remitting funds from  overseas, my assessable income is zero so I don't need to file a tax return. How do I prove I have paid my taxes?

[Mike Lister]

35 minutes ago, Lorry said:

They are not

Stop it, they are!

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/65308.html

 

NB @Expat68

[bubba]

12 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

A foreign credit/debit card transaction has a large footprint. The merchant has a record, the merchants bank has a record for settlement purposes, Visa/Mastercard has a copy and the central bank gets a copy.

If using a virtual payment such as Apple Pay (which does work in Thailand), there is no card information exchanged - only an anonymous, randomized token and a one time security code. That’s the security advantage of using such a system and it prevents anyone in the middle from collecting any personal details from users or tracking them. 

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, bubba said:

If using a virtual payment such as Apple Pay (which does work in Thailand), there is no card information exchanged - only an anonymous, randomized token and a one time security code. That’s the security advantage of using such a system and it prevents anyone in the middle from collecting any personal details from users or tracking them. 

**Apple Pay is not available locally in Thailand.

 

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/255320389?sortBy=best

[bubba]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

I have enough money in Thailand to live on without remitting funds from  overseas, my assessable income is zero so I don't need to file a tax return. How do I prove I have paid my taxes?

I would assume you would file a personal income tax form showing zero assessable income. 

[Lorry]

7 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Stop it, they are!

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/65308.html

 

NB @Expat68

Sorry, my mistake.

What is not in English is the online tax filing.

[Mike Lister]

Just now, bubba said:

I would assume you would file a personal income tax form showing zero assessable income. 

You would assume incorrectly! The Thai Revenue Code states that only those who exceed the minimum assessable income threshold shall file a tax return.

[bubba]

Just now, Mike Lister said:

**Apple Pay is not available locally in Thailand.

But it is if you have Apple Pay linked to a foreign card. You simply use it with your iPhone or your Apple Watch at any contactless card reader. I’ve been using mine that way for years. 

[kickstart]

15 hours ago, ukrules said:

Nonsense

 

Many people don't spend 180 days a year in the country and what if your extension is in December just before the end of the tax year - how they gonna get around that?

 

I could be wrong, but I know that government departments they tax year ends, end of September, it was announced as the op said, last October, start of the new financial year.

[Mike Lister]

Just now, bubba said:

But it is if you have Apple Pay linked to a foreign card. You simply use it with your iPhone or your Apple Watch at any contactless card reader. I’ve been using mine that way for years. 

What can I say, maybe Apple is confused!

 

 

"Apple Pay is not active in Thailand so you will not succeed in adding a card for that purpose.

 

Nobody has any knowledge about if or when Apple Pay might be available in Thailand. Continue to look at the page Places that support Apple Pay, and no debut you will see items in your local news sites in the event that Apple Pay is made available".

 

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/255320389?sortBy=best

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, kickstart said:

I could be wrong, but I know that government departments they tax year ends, end of September, it was announced as the op said, last October, start of the new financial year.

You are wrong! The tax year is the calendar year. The government budget/financial year ends September

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, bubba said:

 What can I say? I have no reason to lie about it. I’ve added more than one foreign credit card to Apple Pay and it has worked at contactless card readers in Thailand for years. That includes large merchants such as Central. 
 

 

I'm sure you are correct and that some form of anomaly exists. I don't know anything about AP but I do know it will have to have permission to operate within Thailand borders, that means obtaining permission from BOT as a payments vehicle. AP says this:

 

And when you use Apple Pay with credit, debit, or prepaid cards, Apple doesn't retain any transaction information that can be tied back to you. Your transactions stay between you, the merchant or developer, and your bank or card issuer.

 

So, AP may not keep any record of the transaction but the merchant and the card issuer does because the merchant must be paid and the transaction must be reconciled and settled.

[vangrop]

I won't pay any satang. I only bring in cash. If I need new, I will go refuel in Cambodga, Laos, Vietnma.... No income trace in Thailand

[garzhe]

16 hours ago, Robbie2618 said:

I would gather that most expats that have incomes outside of Thailand are not working for a company that's going to report the income to the Thai taxing authority and if your earning wages outside of Thailand then you would very likely have a non-Thai bank account. The only income the Thai authorities would know about is what's in your local bank account that you show on visa renewal. 

Except that Thailand joined the CRS last year (common Reporting Standard)