New Tax Rules for Expats in Thailand Spark Concern

[garzhe]

17 hours ago, Excogitator said:

More tax treaties are needed, like the ones Thailand has with the Scandinavian countries, to avoid double taxation.

 

Thailand already has dual taxation agreements with 60 countries. These agreements differ in their scope and specifics. How Thai  Tax authorities can deal with this remains to be seen.

 

Australia Austria  Bahrain Bangladesh Belarus  Belgium Bulgaria Canada Chile China Cyprus Czech Republic Denmark Estonia Finland France
Germany Hong Kong Hungary Iceland India Indonesia Ireland Israel Italy Japan Korea Kuwait Lao Luxembourg Malaysia Mauritius Myanmar
Nepal Netherlands New Zealand Norway Oman Pakistan Philippines Poland Portugal Qatar Romania Russia Seychelles Singapore Slovenia
South Africa Spain Sri Lanka Sweden Switzerland Turkey Ukraine United Arab Emirates United Kingdom United States (limited treaty) 

Uzbekistan Vietnam

[UKresonant]

8 hours ago, VBF said:

So anyone with savings, can make their remittances from their savings, even  if they happen to also be earning new income outside Thailand? 

I do know that one does not need to be officially retired to get a retirement extension.

Keeping the pre-2024 principle without interest co-mingled might take a bit of attention to detail.

 

Also not being able to create new similar savings, unless from the income stream whilst not Thai tax resident...

[aldriglikvid]

If I assume the DTA's will be honored and interpreted in a resonable way, I will continue to pay my fair share of tax back home and none over here. 

 

My concern, however, is the translation and acceptance of my national filings here in Thailand. Not to mention the comingling of funds: all my capital gains and dividends are sent to my main account.  

 

What I'm trying to say here is that, I'm not overly concerned about the new taxes per see - but very much concerned for the actual implementation. 

[Jack1988]

run farangs, run! Jokes aside, the smartest thing to do is to spend less than 180 days in thailand and end of the story, very easy, don't think too much! Like me for example, came with a 60 days tourist visa, extend it 30 days and then do a border run 30 days plus 30 days extension, another border run is optional if i want, so i would stay here less than 180 days, maybe 170 days haha, more than enough for me to live here. And repeat the process next time when i want to return to the country

[ChasingTheSun]

20 hours ago, 10baht said:

Let's say I earn $100k in 2024 but have 5 million in the bank (outside Thailand) at the end of 2023. How do they know which money I am bring into Thailand?  5000000/100000 = 50 years of earnings before 2024!!!

You need to keep your statements from dec 31 2023 to show you already had the capital prior to the new tax las.

[Mike Lister]

14 minutes ago, ryandb said:

 

 

Why am I nutjob? Because I don't believe in theft at the threat of imprisonment?

 

Go on give me the necessary things that need to be funded by taxation that could not be done by private companies at either better value or quality? Remember the government has zero incentive to do things well when they hold the monopoly on certain services and every politician fails upwards eventually.

 

Why do you believe you couldn't use all that money better than the government?

An interesting aspect but the subject is tax collection, not tax expenditure, please stay on topic.

 

Further off topic posts removed, do not discuss further.

 

I have decluttered the thread and removed several other off topic posts

[Mike Lister]

I have removed a scaremongering and inaccurate post that was unsubstantiated, along with replies to it. Any further posts along the same lines will be removed without warning and action taken. I have also removed the reasonable replies to those posts.

[Gknrd]

You guys better be careful. I went through the legal end of it in South America a while back. Consulted with a tax attorney. No tax treaty here but, SS benefits were what they were after.  And I checked every avenue possible. Not worth it for me. 170 days and I leave. And, these guys are not NEAR as save as Thailand if you can believe that. Allot of it gets unreported here with no consequences.  Thailand, I would not even think about it until the smoke clears and don't listen to the armchair tax experts here. 

Thailand is only after one thing money...

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, Gknrd said:

You guys better be careful. I went through the legal end of it in South America a while back. Consulted with a tax attorney. No tax treaty here but, SS benefits were what they were after.  And I checked every avenue possible. Not worth it for me. 170 days and I leave. And, these guys are not NEAR as save as Thailand if you can believe that. Allot of it gets unreported here with no consequences.  Thailand, I would not even think about it until the smoke clears and don't listen to the armchair tax experts here. 

Thailand is only after one thing money...

Tax treaties are different for every country, no two are the same. What happens in South America is not even remotely relevant to what happens in Thailand. Furthermore, a tax treaty does exist between Thailand and the US and for the very last time, it very clearly states that US SSc is taxable only by the US. We know those things to be true because several people, including US CPA's have reviewed those treaties which are explicit and unambiguous. Furthermore, some of us who have filed Thai tax returns here for many years and who also receive US SSc, such as myself, have been instructed by the TRD to exclude that income from our Thai tax returns. 

 

This is the end of this exchange, this aspect is closed, unless any future post is accompanied by supportive evidence from an official source (not a blog).

[J Branche]

16 minutes ago, Gknrd said:

You guys better be careful. I went through the legal end of it in South America a while back. Consulted with a tax attorney. No tax treaty here but, SS benefits were what they were after.  And I checked every avenue possible. Not worth it for me. 170 days and I leave. And, these guys are not NEAR as save as Thailand if you can believe that. Allot of it gets unreported here with no consequences.  Thailand, I would not even think about it until the smoke clears and don't listen to the armchair tax experts here. 

Thailand is only after one thing money...

False, Misinformation.

 

The US/Thailand Tax Agreement is as of May 30, 2024 still Enforce.  Per PDF Page 30 Article 31 Termination

6 Months Notice MUST be provided by USA or Thailand through Diplomatic Channels prior to the Agreement being terminated.

 

Social Security Benefits/Pensions PDF Page 23 and 24 Article Pensions and Social Security Payments.

These are only Taxed from the Source country which would be USA.

 

Almost everybody will Not need to worry about PDF Page 24 Pensions

b) However, such pension shall be taxable only in the other Contracting State if the
individual is a resident of, and a national of, that other State.

My Opinion (Verify with proper authority) this statement is confusing but a National would be someone with Thai Citizenship Most will be Thailand Tax Residents but NOT Citizens.

 

[thesetat]

It is my opinion that if i am having to pay taxes, then i should not foreigner charged for buying or doing things. If you are a tax payer then the country should treat you as one. Not treat you as an extended stay tourist. Are we not paying enough already being overcharged just because we are foreigners? I know for sure the extra costs we incur are surely more yearly than any tax i would need to pay. 

This article sheds no new light on any rulings we need to know about as a long staying foreigner. As of now, nothing has been settled as to the standard we must follow. However, I think the government should consider the facts about what we actually pay by living here. The additional expenses that NON-Taxpaying citizens and the few tax-paying citizens enjoy with cheap prices. I have been considering buying an air machine from the government hospital. They told me as a foreigner I would need to pay 25% more than the listed price. That is almost 20,000 baht more than the cost for it simply because I am a foreigner here. Ridiculous. 

[Speedhump]

On 5/30/2024 at 5:59 AM, Danderman123 said:

Ummm...

 

The point of the new rules is to make the money you bring into Thailand from your home country taxable, such as bank transfers, ATM withdrawals, and the like.

The point of the new rule is to catch both Thais and farang bringing large amounts of money into the country bringing large amounts of money into the country. Farang pensioners and others on low income (by western standards) will certainly be involved in headache and probably expense to explain their income, even if it falls below the tax threshold.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, thesetat said:

It is my opinion that if i am having to pay taxes, then i should not foreigner charged for buying or doing things. If you are a tax payer then the country should treat you as one. Not treat you as an extended stay tourist. Are we not paying enough already being overcharged just because we are foreigners? I know for sure the extra costs we incur are surely more yearly than any tax i would need to pay. 

This article sheds no new light on any rulings we need to know about as a long staying foreigner. As of now, nothing has been settled as to the standard we must follow. However, I think the government should consider the facts about what we actually pay by living here. The additional expenses that NON-Taxpaying citizens and the few tax-paying citizens enjoy with cheap prices. I have been considering buying an air machine from the government hospital. They told me as a foreigner I would need to pay 25% more than the listed price. That is almost 20,000 baht more than the cost for it simply because I am a foreigner here. Ridiculous. 

Hospitals here are legally allowed to charge non-Thai's in accordance with a table of costs approved by the government, there are four levels, native Thais, ASEAN members,tourists and expats. Each level is charged more but it is at the discretion of the hospital whether they do so or not. Most hospitals in non-tourist areas do not.

 

Having addressed your point, let's get back on track with the topic, which is tax, not dual pricing and not the rights of foreigners..

 

[steve187]

On 5/30/2024 at 7:25 AM, HappyExpat57 said:

NOT nonsense! Immigration doesn't care how many days you spend in Thailand - if you are filing for an annual extension, they will probably be instructed to require the retiree to file a tax return for approval. Add to that how every immigration office follows their own interpretation of the rules and you have a recipe for the perfect cluster kcuf.

scaremongering 

[Excogitator]

8 hours ago, garzhe said:

 

Thailand already has dual taxation agreements with 60 countries. These agreements differ in their scope and specifics. How Thai  Tax authorities can deal with this remains to be seen.

 

Australia Austria  Bahrain Bangladesh Belarus  Belgium Bulgaria Canada Chile China Cyprus Czech Republic Denmark Estonia Finland France
Germany Hong Kong Hungary Iceland India Indonesia Ireland Israel Italy Japan Korea Kuwait Lao Luxembourg Malaysia Mauritius Myanmar
Nepal Netherlands New Zealand Norway Oman Pakistan Philippines Poland Portugal Qatar Romania Russia Seychelles Singapore Slovenia
South Africa Spain Sri Lanka Sweden Switzerland Turkey Ukraine United Arab Emirates United Kingdom United States (limited treaty) 

Uzbekistan Vietnam

Thanks for that one, garzhe.

Yes, it remains to be seen how this will all work out in real life. With so many differing tax-agreements, it sounds like a recipe for confusion...

[Flink]

So the net result for me will be that I will have to declare my income from my pension in the UK, which falls below the tax threshold there, so I can be taxed on it here in Thailand? Well, that seems fair......NOT!

[oslooskar]

I'm not worried, because as far as I know my social security, which I live on, is not taxable. That having been said, if things develop here in Thailand to my disliking, I can simply pack up and leave.

[black tabby12345]

On 5/30/2024 at 4:47 AM, Hawaiian said:

Not sure how much expats contribute to the economy.  I am no economist, but I think the end result will be less revenue collected 

At the end of tax year, the revenue department will find out what a waste of their time and energy to tax on foreign retirees.

Creating useless paper works for nearly nothing.

 

[black tabby12345]

6 hours ago, Jack1988 said:

run farangs, run! Jokes aside, the smartest thing to do is to spend less than 180 days in thailand and end of the story, very easy, don't think too much! Like me for example, came with a 60 days tourist visa, extend it 30 days and then do a border run 30 days plus 30 days extension, another border run is optional if i want, so i would stay here less than 180 days, maybe 170 days haha, more than enough for me to live here. And repeat the process next time when i want to return to the country

If you are on tourist visa, you are not affected by this 

[lordgrinz]

12 minutes ago, black tabby12345 said:

At the end of tax year, the revenue department will find out what a waste of their time and energy to tax on foreign retirees.

Creating useless paper works for nearly nothing.

 

 

Remember, in the new technology age, Immigration still insists on 100's of copies of paper, and an army of workers to sort through it all. It's Thai way of employing useless drones, just create "useless paper works" at the expense of Foreigners.

[Old Croc]

Questions:  Apologies, likely already been asked and answered in the tsunami of posts in the various threads on the tax subject.

 

Qualified as a tax resident under the 180-day in country rule.

No tax owed because nil remits or under limits after allowances (self-assessed)

 

Do you legally have to obtain a tax number?

Do you legally have to lodge a return? 

 

 

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, Old Croc said:

Questions:  Apologies, likely already been asked and answered in the tsunami of posts in the various threads on the tax subject.

 

Qualified as a tax resident under the 180-day in country rule.

No tax owed because nil remits or under limits after allowances (self-assessed)

 

Do you legally have to obtain a tax number?

Do you legally have to lodge a return? 

 

 

Hmmm, legally you should file, if you want to play strictly by the rules but not having any tax to pay means your liability is limited to a 2,000 baht fine that doesn't seem to be imposed on anyone.

[Old Croc]

Just now, Mike Lister said:

No and No.

Thankyou.

 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Old Croc said:

Thankyou.

 

Wait, I changed my answer :))

[Old Croc]

Just now, Mike Lister said:

Wait, I changed my answer :))

I'll withdraw my thankyou until I can re-assess!  😛

[Old Croc]

4 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Hmmm, legally you should file, if you want to play strictly by the rules but not having and tax to pay means your liability is limited to a 2,000 baht fine that doesn't seem to be imposed on anyone.

Ok, again thanks. That helps explain why millions of Thais don't bother to lodge.

[Old Croc]

In an earlier post I explained my planned course of action, but possible whistleblowing actions by other agencies against Temporary Residents (Immigration category), was a worry. 

I'll do as the locals.

[lordgrinz]

I would guess the first year of these changes will be a mess, by the second year things will get hammered out, so by the summer of 2026 we should finally have a really good picture of things. Until then, if you brought money in before Jan 1st 2024 and can make it to 2026 without any more needed remittance, then feel lucky. I wish I remitted about B1-2 million more, but for now I'll just go cheap Charlie for a while. At least the money left in the US can grow while waiting.

[4MyEgo]

21 hours ago, brianthainess said:

Agree I find this fear mongering when most won't have to pay any Thai tax.

 

According to my circumstances and calculations, that's about 3.95% on a million baht, not bad at all, that said, they aren't going to get anything from me for at least 2 years the way I will be doing things and that works out to a saving of about 80,000 baht.

 

Better in my pocket than there's, all legit of course 🤑

[wealthychef]

On 5/30/2024 at 4:47 AM, Hawaiian said:

Not sure how much expats contribute to the economy.  I am no economist, but I think the end result will be less revenue collected because of the multiplier effect of retail spending. 

 

The equation would be:  revenue increase = (new tax revenues collected) - (number of people who leave because of taxes) * (amount of fees and taxes, especially VAT collected per person leaving).  So if enough people stay, income outweighs the leavers.  Furthermore, one might argue it probably improves Thailand by reducing the number of fat white bellies on beaches.  LOL