New tax regs and how will they affect me here with a low income and with retirement visa.

[notrub]

I am 76, retired UK national with an income of about 25,000 baht a month income and 1M Baht on deposite in a thai bank.  How will the new tax laws affect me please?  I am married to a thai woman and live in a house that I built and paid for.  I have no debt.  Thanks for any comments.🙏🏼🙂

[Sheryl]

Moved to the finance forum as not really visa-related.

 

The "new laws" you refer to are a proposal that has yet to be made into law.

 

At the moment, the only tax implication is for money you remit into Thailand (money already on deposit in the bank doesn't matter other than the interest it generates).

 

Your monthly remittances may be assessable in Thailand depending on their source and the terms of the UK-Thai Dual Tax Agreement (DTA). Offhand, I know that state pensions (life the old age pension) and private pensions are assessable in Thailand but not  government pensions (military etc). Savings from earnings on income received pre-2023 are also not assessable in Thailand.

 

If you pay any UK tax of this money, can claim a tax credit for it on your Thai return or vice versa.

 

There are a number of threads in the finance forum on this and with details of the deductions allowed on Thai taxes, and tools to help you calculate your tax

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1324294-introduction-to-personal-income-tax-in-thailand/

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1327622-thai-gov-to-tax-remitted-income-from-abroad-for-tax-residents-starting-2024-part-ii/

 

 

The new proposal, which has a way to go before becoming law (if it does), would also tax income not brought into Thailand (income, not savings) subject to the same considerations as above: whether the source of the income is exempted under the relevant DTA, anbd credits to avoid double taxation.

 

Under both current rules and the proposed tax law change, you are only a tax resident if you are here 180 dfays of the year.

[notrub]

Thank you Sheryl.  With any luck I will be dead b4 the new laws come into effect.🙂🙏🏼

[notrub]

Excuse me Sheryl.  Sorry, I actually think that we foriegners who live here should contribute through the tax system or somehow.  I meant that I did not want to have to try to figure outwhat i owe and how to pay and all the complications that may come with new regulations, not the actual payment.🙏🏼🙂   

[JohnnyBD]

1 hour ago, notrub said:

I am 76, retired UK national with an income of about 25,000 baht a month income and 1M Baht on deposite in a thai bank.  How will the new tax laws affect me please?  I am married to a thai woman and live in a house that I built and paid for.  I have no debt.  Thanks for any comments.🙏🏼🙂

You can probably take your financial information to the local RD and ask them to figure your taxes for you. They may even help you file your tax return. Are you referring to new tax laws that don't exist yet?

Edited June 9 by JohnnyBD

[Ben Zioner]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

Moved to the finance forum as not really visa-related.

 

The "new laws" you refer to are a proposal that has yet to be made into law.

 

At the moment, the only tax implication is for money you remit into Thailand (money already on deposit in the bank doesn't matter other than the interest it generates).

 

Your monthly remittances may be assessable in Thailand depending on their source and the terms of the UK-Thai Dual Tax Agreement (DTA). Offhand, I know that state pensions (life the old age pension) and private pensions are assessable in Thailand but not  government pensions (military etc). Savings from earnings on income received pre-2023 are also not assessable in Thailand.

 

If you pay any UK tax of this money, can claim a tax credit for it on your Thai return or vice versa.

 

There are a number of threads in the finance forum on this and with details of the deductions allowed on Thai taxes, and tools to help you calculate your tax

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1324294-introduction-to-personal-income-tax-in-thailand/

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1327622-thai-gov-to-tax-remitted-income-from-abroad-for-tax-residents-starting-2024-part-ii/

 

 

The new proposal, which has a way to go before becoming law (if it does), would also tax income not brought into Thailand (income, not savings) subject to the same considerations as above: whether the source of the income is exempted under the relevant DTA, anbd credits to avoid double taxation.

 

Under both current rules and the proposed tax law change, you are only a tax resident if you are here 180 dfays of the year.

Sheryl, with 25k a months (300k a year), he will pay zilch. Being 74 he can claim 190000 for being a senior which leaves 140000, 10000 under the threshold.

[MangoKorat]

42 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Sheryl, with 25k a months (300k a year), he will pay zilch. Being 74 he can claim 190000 for being a senior which leaves 140000, 10000 under the threshold.

I'm not sure that is correct. The basic allowance is 60,000 + another 190,000 for over 65's.  If his wife isn't earning there is a further 60,000.

 

I also think you are looking at it the wrong way.  My understanding is that you take your total income, in this case 300,000, then take your allowances off - the remainder is taxable so in the example you give, he would have 140,000 of taxable income.

 

He would actually get 250,000 of allowance (+ possibly another 60k for his wife), so his taxable amount would be 50,000 and taxed at 5% so without any further allowances his tax would be 2500.

 

At least that's the way I read the way the system works in Thailand. I could be wrong.

 

There are also various other allowances.

Edited June 9 by MangoKorat

[Ben Zioner]

5 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

he would have 140,000 of taxable income

Indeed, but taxed at 0%. The man OP has nothing to pay. Have a second look at the rules.

Edited June 9 by Ben Zioner

[Raindancer]

13 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

I'm not sure that is correct. The basic allowance is 60,000 + another 190,000 for over 65's.  If his wife isn't earning there is a further 60,000.

 

I also think you are looking at it the wrong way.  My understanding is that you take your total income, in this case 300,000, then take your allowances off - the remainder is taxable so in the example you give, he would have 140,000 of taxable income.

 

He would actually get 250,000 of allowance (+ possibly another 60k for his wife), so his taxable amount would be 50,000 and taxed at 5% so without any further allowances his tax would be 2500.

 

At least that's the way I read the way the system works in Thailand. I could be wrong.

 

There are also various other allowances.

The allowances are simple and have been published several times by Mike lister:

 

Personal Allowance for self (PA1) - 60,000

b) Personal Allowance for wife (PA2) - 60,000

c) Over age 65 years exemption (OAE) - 190,000

d) 50% of pension income received, up to 100k (PD) - 100,000

e) In addition, the first 150,000 of assessable income is zero rated and free of tax (ZR

Total allowance 560000

 

So the OP should not have anything to pay.

 

 

[connda]

3 hours ago, notrub said:

I am 76, retired UK national with an income of about 25,000 baht a month income and 1M Baht on deposite in a thai bank.  How will the new tax laws affect me please?  I am married to a thai woman and live in a house that I built and paid for.  I have no debt.  Thanks for any comments.🙏🏼🙂

You're not going to be affected at all.  Your tax exemption threshold at your age is something like 560,000 THB of income. You are way under that with 300K income. If they end up forcing us to file taxes, then claim all of the tax they take out of interest payments on your bank account.  You'll end up making more money.  

[connda]

50 minutes ago, Raindancer said:

The allowances are simple and have been published several times by Mike lister:

 

Personal Allowance for self (PA1) - 60,000

b) Personal Allowance for wife (PA2) - 60,000

c) Over age 65 years exemption (OAE) - 190,000

d) 50% of pension income received, up to 100k (PD) - 100,000

e) In addition, the first 150,000 of assessable income is zero rated and free of tax (ZR

Total allowance 560000

 

So the OP should not have anything to pay.

 

 

Somebody already did that for you.  If your wife is over 65, then add another 190K to the exemption threshold. 

[SingAPorn]

If you can, start to consider other countries like India, Malaysia in the Asean and sell off your property in Thailand. Of course for those who can.

[Raindancer]

13 minutes ago, connda said:

Somebody already did that for you.  If your wife is over 65, then add another 190K to the exemption threshold. 

post deleted by user

Edited June 9 by Raindancer

[KhunHeineken]

2 hours ago, connda said:

You're not going to be affected at all.  Your tax exemption threshold at your age is something like 560,000 THB of income. You are way under that with 300K income. If they end up forcing us to file taxes, then claim all of the tax they take out of interest payments on your bank account.  You'll end up making more money.  

I mentioned in a few other posts, for many, maybe it's like the Certificate of Residence.  It's supposed to be free, but you pay 300 baht for it. 

 

If you have to pay tax, then you pay tax, but if you don't have to pay tax, I would not be surprised if you have to pay 300, 500, or 1000 baht for a document from the TRD for your annual extension.  Of course, there will be no receipt issued for that payment.  I'm sure you know what I mean. 

 

So, they make money from the taxed, and money from the untaxed. 

 

This is small money for each foreigner, even a pensioner, but a nice backhander for the TRD, in the same way immigration get the backhanders for the Certificate of Residence, and through agents for people who don't have the 800k.  . 

 

Is it little wonder the TRD want to put their snout in the trough in the same way? 

 

Maybe we are all reading too much into it, and that's all the system will be.  Pay X amount for the TRD document in order to get your extension. 

 

For high net worth Thai's, they may actually apply the law. 

[MangoKorat]

3 hours ago, Raindancer said:

e) In addition, the first 150,000 of assessable income is zero rated and free of tax (ZR

Total allowance 560000

So what you are saying is that you deduct all your allowances and the remainder is your assesable income.  Then the first 150,000 of that income is not taxable?

[Raindancer]

18 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

So what you are saying is that you deduct all your allowances and the remainder is your assesable income.  Then the first 150,000 of that income is not taxable?

Yes, i suppose thats one way of interpreting it. Or you could interpret it as I  said and further explained below.

 

 The 560000 baht per annum I listed, includes the first 150000 of annual income that counts towards your " tax free" allowance, before any additional income might be taxed.   That of course is depending upon this proposal being enacted by the TRD.

 

Simple example:

UK State pension max is around 11 to £11500 per annum.  If that is multiplied by the current exchange rate, it is still under the 560000 thai baht of ( let's call them tax allowances) before any further assessable income is considered taxable.

 

Finally, so that there is no misunderstanding of my post;

 

The allowances I have posted are based upon:

 

A person over 65 with income and with a wife.  Hence the two separate allowances of 

 

60000 baht for the western pensioner and

60000 baht for the wife or husband if the pensioner is a woman. 

 

I am allowing for the pensioner to be male or female.  Hopefully that will stop any unnecessary comments from those who might choose to do so.

Edited June 9 by Raindancer
Amendment

[bg53]

Please also note that pensions may be exempt under Thai Double Taxation Agreements. Check your particular DTA. 

[MangoKorat]

3 minutes ago, Raindancer said:

That of course is depending upon this proposal being enacted by the TRD.

I thought that foreigners earnings were always assesable and the only change was that the loophole of earnings from the previous tax year was the only thing being changed?  It was my understanding that that became law on 1st January 2024.

 

(not talking about the new 'Global Income' proposals)

[Raindancer]

9 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

I thought that foreigners earnings were always assesable and the only change was that the loophole of earnings from the previous tax year was the only thing being changed?  It was my understanding that that became law on 1st January 2024.

 

(not talking about the new 'Global Income' proposals)

Sorry,  I'm not going to get into that.   It's been beaten to death and Mike Lister has explained that numerous times.

 

Yes foreigners income has always been assessable.  But has never been fully implemented.  Hence the TRDs proposal of tightening up an already existing law.

 

I hope that clarifies it. 🙂

Edited June 9 by Raindancer

[Ben Zioner]

14 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

So what you are saying is that you deduct all your allowances and the remainder is your assesable income.  Then the first 150,000 of that income is not taxable?

Yeesssss

[Everyman]

23 hours ago, notrub said:

I am 76, retired UK national with an income of about 25,000 baht a month income and 1M Baht on deposite in a thai bank.  How will the new tax laws affect me please?  I am married to a thai woman and live in a house that I built and paid for.  I have no debt.  Thanks for any comments.🙏🏼🙂

 

There are no new tax laws. Only a gigantic amount of hysteria. 

[Moonlover]

23 hours ago, notrub said:

I am 76, retired UK national with an income of about 25,000 baht a month income and 1M Baht on deposite in a thai bank.  How will the new tax laws affect me please?  I am married to a thai woman and live in a house that I built and paid for.  I have no debt.  Thanks for any comments.🙏🏼🙂

@notrub, do you recall how all this kerfuffle started and when? It was on the 18th Sep 2023 in an article in the Thai Enquirer which was copied here in ASEAN NOW.. You can go and read it if you follow this link.

 

https://www.thaienquirer.com/50744/thai-government-to-tax-all-income-from-abroad-for-tax-residents-starting-2024/

 

And when you've read that go on to read this article in Siam Legal's website

 

 https://www.siam-legal.com/thailand-law/relationship-between-the-new-thai-tax-law-retirement-visa-holders-and-long-term-residency/

 

Not convinced yet? Well try this one by BTI solutions.:

 

https://btisolutions.co/will-you-be-impacted-by-thailands-revised-tax-code/

 

Or this one from Thai Examiner:

 

https://www.thaiexaminer.com/thai-news-foreigners/2024/05/28/some-expat-foreign-residents-face-base-tax-bill-of-71k-baht-a-year-and-must-file-by-march-2025/

 

I could go on there are more, but importantly I have not yet found a single article that indicates anything that contradicts notion that retirees on pensions will not be affected by this new law.

 

The only place that suggests otherwise is right here in ASEAN NOW. IMO this is nothing more than a home grown rumour,

 

Relax notrub and stop worrying. And for heaven's sake ignore the doomsayers.

[topt]

1 hour ago, Moonlover said:

but importantly I have not yet found a single article that indicates anything that contradicts notion that retirees on pensions will not be affected by this new law.

Unfortunately the articles you quoted contain many generalisations. However did you bother to read that last link you quoted?

Quote

Based on this level of income or ฿780,000 a year, the average foreign resident could possibly face a tax bill of ฿71,000.

Anyway their calculation is flawed but so, in my opinion, is your continual commenting that DTAs will mean no change......

 

Possibly if from the US this may be true (depending on income sources) but for others not necessarily so. This has also been commented upon in past replies to you so it should come as no surprise.

 

The issue of individual RD offices being able to deal with DTA's consistently is yet another issue.

 

Where I am in agreement is in not panicking until things become clearer.

(The poster you replied to should have no issues as his income appears to be below his TEDA anyway).

[Moonlover]

4 hours ago, topt said:

Unfortunately the articles you quoted contain many generalisations. However did you bother to read that last link you quoted?

 

4 hours ago, topt said:

Quote

Based on this level of income or ฿780,000 a year, the average foreign resident could possibly face a tax bill of ฿71,000.

Yes of course I read this part of the linked article as my own remitted income is somewhere in this bracket. But I was addressing the O/P's situation, not my own, so I did not consider it relevant.

 

But since you mention it. If someone is remitting such an annual sum into Thailand and it has not been taxed at source, then yes, they could well be liable to a large tax bill. But I am addressing and always have been, the issue of retirees remitting their already taxed pensions and that's a different matter altogether.

 

Every article that I linked above suggests that such persons will not be subject to taxation once again and until someone comes up with any information that suggests otherwise, I'm sticking to my guns!

[KhunHeineken]

23 hours ago, Everyman said:

 

There are no new tax laws. Only a gigantic amount of hysteria. 

They said that about the new cannabis laws as well.