2 minutes ago, Hummin said:

We have to manage China and India, so they still want and need us for coexisting trading between our differences. 

 

As long we benefits each other, the conflicts will not go out of hands like poking the Russian bear for to long. 

 

 

 Agreed - we need PEACE - all this war for nothing

12 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

That is an arguable point - it was agreed NO NATO expansion eastwards.

This is nothing but Russian propaganda.  

 

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/115204.htm

 

 

2 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 That, with respect, is ABSURD

You are nothing but walking talking Russian propaganda machine. 

Just now, JBChiangRai said:

That is a moot point.

 

Yeltsin agreed to not invade Ukraine in return they gave up their arsenal of Nuclear weapons.

 

Putin told Clinton in 2011 he wouldn’t honor Russia’s agreement because it wasn’t made with him, Clinton said he knew in 2011 Russia would invade Ukraine.

 

If Putin refuses to honor Russia’s written agreements, why should NATO honor verbal discussions with someone other than Putin?

 

You know very well that France and Germany have admitted that the 20214 agreement was a sham to allow Ukraine to build up its forces. The CIA were behind the overthrow of Yanukovich - I was in Kiev in 2014 with my Uncle who lives there.

1 minute ago, TedG said:

You are nothing but walking talking Russian propaganda machine. 

No, I am an educated guy who holds, as many, many thousands do, a view different from yours. Have you been to Russia?  Ukraine? Worked there?  Please bear in mind where you get your information from. 

6 minutes ago, Hummin said:

We have to manage China and India, so they still want and need us for coexisting trading between our differences. 

 

As long we benefits each other, the conflicts will not go out of hands like poking the Russian bear for to long. 

 

 

No one is poking the Russian bear.  Putin decided to invade Ukraine for no reason and West is helping Ukraine defend their borders. 

Just now, BobBKK said:

No, I am an educated guy who holds, as many, many thousands do, a view different from yours. Have you been to Russia?  Ukraine? Worked there?  Please bear in mind where you get your information from. 

I’ve been to Ukraine and I’ll never travel to Russia.  Where do you get your info from?  Russian propaganda sources.  I don’t know anyone can defend Putins actions in this war.

1 minute ago, TedG said:

No one is poking the Russian bear.  Putin decided to invade Ukraine for no reason and West is helping Ukraine defend their borders. 

 That is one way of looking at it Ted - but it is thoroughly incorrect from Russias point of view.

1 minute ago, TedG said:

I’ve been to Ukraine and I’ll never travel to Russia.  Where do you get your info from?  Russian propaganda sources.  I don’t know anyone can defend Putins actions in this war.

Russia's a beautiful country. I had a delightful girlfriend in St Petersburg, who was stunning. It's all about perspective, Ted. I should be on Ukraine's side as I have family in Kiev - but I know too much about the whys and wherefores to ignore the obvious. Yanukovich was democratically elected and removed by the CIA and right-wing nationalists. It's a fact.

2 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 Agreed - we need PEACE - all this war for nothing

You change your tune pretty quick, don't you? Suddenly the war is pointless. Whereas the Russian playbook narrative is, it's a totally legitimate response to Western aggression, as Fat Boy Kim will tell you. Truth is, it's far worse than pointless. 1 million lives destroyed. How many wounded and disabled? If it was you having to live the rest of your life with a leg amputated, blind in one eye, or both, an arm shot off, your entire family blown to bits, would you feel quite so supportive of the instigators of this disgusting war? Families shattered. Communities ruined. This is a crime of enormous proportions. Yes, it's pointless. Always was. So why don't you speak out against the murderous sociopath who started it? And please, don't tell me it was Zelensky, or NATO, or the global north etc etc.

12 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 

You know very well that France and Germany have admitted that the 20214 agreement was a sham to allow Ukraine to build up its forces. The CIA were behind the overthrow of Yanukovich - I was in Kiev in 2014 with my Uncle who lives there.

I don’t know that at all, nonsense.

1 minute ago, bradiston said:

You change your tune pretty quick, don't you? Suddenly the war is pointless. Whereas the Russian playbook narrative is, it's a totally legitimate response to Western aggression, as Fat Boy Kim will tell you. Truth is, it's far worse than pointless. 1 million lives destroyed. How many wounded and disabled? If it was you having to live the rest of your life with a leg amputated, blind in one eye, or both, an arm shot off, your entire family blown to bits, would you feel quite so supportive of the instigators of this disgusting war? Families shattered. Communities ruined. This is a crime of enormous proportions. Yes, it's pointless. Always was. So why don't you speak out against the murderous sociopath who started it? And please, don't tell me it was Zelensky, or NATO, or the global north etc etc.

 I agree it should never have happened - the USA has blood all over its greasy, slimy hands. Just like Afghanistan, Libya, Vietnam, Syria, Gaza, Iraq (WMD, where are you?) - nothing can be trusted, and some of us have to tell the truth - I'm sorry it grieves you, you are defending the wrong side not out of maliciousness but out of simple ignorance.

2 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I don’t know that all, nonsense.

 you don't seem to know much

According to former German Chancellor Angela Merkel, the Minsk agreement served to buy time to rearm Ukraine. “The 2014 Minsk agreement was an attempt to give Ukraine time,” Merkel told the weekly Die Zeit. “It also used this time to become stronger, as you can see today.”

11 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 That is one way of looking at it Ted - but it is thoroughly incorrect from Russias point of view.

 

The Russia view is delusional.  That’s what happens when a country like Russia is run by a sociopath.

9 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

Russia's a beautiful country. I had a delightful girlfriend in St Petersburg, who was stunning. It's all about perspective, Ted. I should be on Ukraine's side as I have family in Kiev - but I know too much about the whys and wherefores to ignore the obvious. Yanukovich was democratically elected and removed by the CIA and right-wing nationalists. It's a fact.

Russia is nothing but gas station. 

1 minute ago, BobBKK said:

 I agree it should never have happened - the USA has blood all over its greasy, slimy hands. Just like Afghanistan, Libya, Vietnam, Syria, Gaza, Iraq (WMD, where are you?) - nothing can be trusted, and some of us have to tell the truth - I'm sorry it grieves you, you are defending the wrong side not out of maliciousness but out of simple ignorance.

You love to describe any opposition as ignorant. Why? You think you're the only well informed commentator? There you go blaming the US. Pathetic cop out whataboutist argument. You credit yourself with telling the truth, like it's some sort of white man's burden, it's so painful and difficult, but these ignorant people must be set on the path to enlightenment. What are you? An Essex evangelical? What's your real point?

1 minute ago, TedG said:

 

The Russia view is delusional.  That’s what happens when a country like Russia is run by a sociopath.

And what about a country that is run by a Dementia patient? It's only delusional because you reject it instead of trying to understand it.

2 minutes ago, bradiston said:

You love to describe any opposition as ignorant. Why? You think you're the only well informed commentator? There you go blaming the US. Pathetic cop out whataboutist argument. You credit yourself with telling the truth, like it's some sort of white man's burden, it's so painful and difficult, but these ignorant people must be set on the path to enlightenment. What are you? An Essex evangelical? What's your real point?

Misquote - I was being kind and you twist it into an insult - very trollish. I said defending the wrong side out of ignorance not that the poster IS ignorant - please stop the twisting and embellishments. Thank you.

57 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

YouTube has removed 9,000 channels and 70,000 videos

Try Rumble,Odysee or Bitchute instead.

7 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

And what about a country that is run by a Dementia patient? It's only delusional because you reject it instead of trying to understand it.

Oh yeah. What about what about? If you'd only accept Russian victory, you'd feel so much better. In fact, you wouldn't feel a thing. The pain will go away once you surrender.

24 minutes ago, TedG said:

Putin decided to invade Ukraine for no reason

He has stated his reasons  and IMHO they are valid.

6 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

Misquote - I was being kind and you twist it into an insult - very trollish. I said defending the wrong side out of ignorance not that the poster IS ignorant - please stop the twisting and embellishments. Thank you.

You weren't being kind at all. You were being condescending and patronising. We're not your pupils, nor your congregation. We're not kids. We don't need enlightening. If people reject your version of the truth, it's not out of ignorance. It's because they see it differently.

8 minutes ago, johng said:

He has stated his reasons  and IMHO they are valid.

What could possibly validate a million deaths?

11 minutes ago, bradiston said:

What could possibly validate a million deaths?

 USA hegemony 

25 minutes ago, bradiston said:

Oh yeah. What about what about? If you'd only accept Russian victory, you'd feel so much better. In fact, you wouldn't feel a thing. The pain will go away once you surrender.

 
Whataboutism is not always an invalid form of argument or a fallacy (in contrast to many other answers). As an informal fallacy, using a “What about… ?" point of reference can be pertinent to the context or content of an argument. 

Example "Putin killed thousands"

Answer "what about Bush"?

A perfectly structured and valid contextual argument.

21 minutes ago, bradiston said:

You weren't being kind at all. You were being condescending and patronising. We're not your pupils, nor your congregation. We're not kids. We don't need enlightening. If people reject your version of the truth, it's not out of ignorance. It's because they see it differently.

 Right so stop attacking me for raising a different point of view.

1 hour ago, bradiston said:

Agreed by whom? And wasn't it agreed, by US, UK and Russia in the Budapest Agreement, no attacks on Ukraine in exchange for them giving up their enormous ex Soviet nuclear arsenal? Russia has and is expanding on at least 2 fronts. South in Crimea, east into Donbas, and possibly west into Transnistria in Moldova. Seems the pro Russian lobby is blind in one eye.

Dont need to be pro Russian, to see and understand the pressure and economic war against Russia had been post cold war, and understand why eventually Russia moved on and annexed Crimea out of strategic reasons. 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, BobBKK said:

 Agreed - we need PEACE - all this war for nothing

On the other hand, it is still the fight for the resources and economic growth, which again staying in power means security for our security and wealth. 

 

Accepting Russia and China more Resources and economic growth on our behalf? 

 

 

36 minutes ago, johng said:

He has stated his reasons  and IMHO they are valid.

What are the valid reasons? 

18 minutes ago, bradiston said:

What could possibly validate a million deaths?

@TedG  said Putin invaded for no reason.

 

I said Putin has stated his reasons,the fact many don't agree with his reasons  doesn't mean that there are no reasons...I think his reason are more valid than the ones we were given for both Iraq wars and Afghanistan  which turned out to be total fabrications.

 

The loss of life,carnage and mutilation on both sides is horrible...but hey lets have a "peace" conference without inviting all warring sides to the table.