A Visit to the Tax Office

[NoDisplayName]

Had the wife call the tax office yesterday, need to update my TIN card (moved from Bangkok to Korat) and have questions about 2023 tax.  Visited the district tax office this afternoon (12:30, no waiting).

 

TIN.  Since I have a pink ID card, I do NOT need a TIN or TIN card.  I am to use the number on my pink ID card when filing taxes.  That requires having my ID card number registered in the system, something the local office could not do.  Office lady called the Korat office to have my number registered, and the old TIN invalidated.  I "should" be able to log onto the tax system within a week to file taxes.  I was allowed to keep the old TIN card, if ever needed as documentation.

 

2023 TAX.  I brought most of the documentation needed to file tax if needed, with the exception of a bank interest statement.  Thai dividend receipts (1300 baht), details of Thai bank interest received (4900 baht), remitted funds (310,000) baht.  She asked if the remitted funds were pension or salary.  We replied from personal savings.  Office lady said we don't need to file, and explained the new remittance rules.  We asked if any documentation was needed to show origin of funds.  Not necessary, self determination.  No mention was made of deductions or exemptions as the remitted funds were ruled not assessable.

 

Office lady said I could file to have tax paid refunded, but that would require a 3-hour+ trip to the bank for an interest statement, another hour or so at the tax office to file in person, pay a late filing fee, net result:  ~600 baht.  Pass.

 

We asked about filing online, and what documents would we need to upload.  Office lady said no upload required, just fill in the tax form.  No dividend or interest statements, no foreign bank/transfer documents.  Enter amount of remittance and check "savings" as source of funds.  We would be contacted in the event more documents required.

 

We're good for this year at this tax office with this official, and don't expect any problems next year.  Self-determination of funds remitted is acceptable so far, at least for the amounts received.  We'll simply keep remittances in 2024 to my account below 320,000 baht to be safe. 

 

We're thinking about filing a 2023 return online next week to test the system.  See if we can file without uploading documents, see if we can set up direct deposit of refund check.  If no bank interest statement needed (I have all the numbers in the passbooks), might as well try.

 

New remittance rules are manageable for now, although bringing in US$20K to purchase a car may require a bit more effort.  As long as they don't move to enact worldwide taxation, tax residency should not be a major issue.

 

YKMV

 

 

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 12:32 PM by NoDisplayName

[NoDisplayName]

In case anyone was wondering, we did ask about the worldwide taxation proposal mentioned by the head of the TRD.

 

Office lady knew nothing about it, and said it was just somebody talking about some idea.  This office will follow the new 2024 remittance rule.  Ignore rumours until a new law is approved.

 

The only phrase I caught between my wife and office lady was "Big Boss."  Not sure if they were referring to me.

[Ben Zioner]

1 hour ago, NoDisplayName said:

Had the wife call the tax office yesterday, need to update my TIN card (moved from Bangkok to Korat) and have questions about 2023 tax.  Visited the district tax office this afternoon (12:30, no waiting).

 

TIN.  Since I have a pink ID card, I do NOT need a TIN or TIN card.  I am to use the number on my pink ID card when filing taxes.  That requires having my ID card number registered in the system, something the local office could not do.  Office lady called the Korat office to have my number registered, and the old TIN invalidated.  I "should" be able to log onto the tax system within a week to file taxes.  I was allowed to keep the old TIN card, if ever needed as documentation.

 

2023 TAX.  I brought most of the documentation needed to file tax if needed, with the exception of a bank interest statement.  Thai dividend receipts (1300 baht), details of Thai bank interest received (4900 baht), remitted funds (310,000) baht.  She asked if the remitted funds were pension or salary.  We replied from personal savings.  Office lady said we don't need to file, and explained the new remittance rules.  We asked if any documentation was needed to show origin of funds.  Not necessary, self determination.  No mention was made of deductions or exemptions as the remitted funds were ruled not assessable.

 

Office lady said I could file to have tax paid refunded, but that would require a 3-hour+ trip to the bank for an interest statement, another hour or so at the tax office to file in person, pay a late filing fee, net result:  ~600 baht.  Pass.

 

We asked about filing online, and what documents would we need to upload.  Office lady said no upload required, just fill in the tax form.  No dividend or interest statements, no foreign bank/transfer documents.  Enter amount of remittance and check "savings" as source of funds.  We would be contacted in the event more documents required.

 

We're good for this year at this tax office with this official, and don't expect any problems next year.  Self-determination of funds remitted is acceptable so far, at least for the amounts received.  We'll simply keep remittances in 2024 to my account below 320,000 baht to be safe. 

 

We're thinking about filing a 2023 return online next week to test the system.  See if we can file without uploading documents, see if we can set up direct deposit of refund check.  If no bank interest statement needed (I have all the numbers in the passbooks), might as well try.

 

New remittance rules are manageable for now, although bringing in US$20K to purchase a car may require a bit more effort.  As long as they don't move to enact worldwide taxation, tax residency should not be a major issue.

 

YKMV

 

 

 

 

But nobody would believe you can live with 310k a year...

[Lorry]

1 hour ago, Ben Zioner said:

But nobody would believe you can live with 310k a year...

It's easily possible (especially if it's one person,  living rent-free in  Issarn).

I m not so sure if the TRD would believe it.

 

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, Ben Zioner said:

But nobody would believe you can live with 310k a year...

 

House is paid off, pickumup truck is paid off.  That leaves 25,000 baht/month for food and utilities.  Also drawing down some Thai savings accounts instead of remitting more cash.

 

But we don't want this to turn into a "I can live on 10,000 baht per month in Bangkok" thread.

[Lorry]

2 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

But we don't want this to turn into a "I can live on 10,000 baht per month in Bangkok" thread.

I agree. 

But sometimes I wonder what the TRD is going to believe we can live on.

Does every farang have to pay taxes on remittances of 65,000 monthly? 

Not so in Korat, that's very nice to hear and gives hope. 

 

BTW In my home-country, it's common to pay taxes on fictitious income as the revenue service states that it is not possible to live on your (truthfully)  stated real income. 

[Ben Zioner]

7 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

But we don't want this to turn into a "I can live on 10,000 baht per month in Bangkok" thread.

Neither would I, the borderline between subsistance and having a life gets blurred for too many in LOS.

 

But I'd like to make two more comments.

 

a) The wise thing to do would have been to transfer savings prior to Jan 1, 2023 during 2023 and then transfer all your 2023 income on the first business day of 2024.

 

b) The lady you met at the tax office was helping you to make your tax return, so she responded on the basis of the information you gave her, lies or not she didn't care. She wasn't auditing you, but you will have to provide proof once you get audited.

[Lacessit]

Very interesting the Thai pink ID card doubles as a tax card, thank you.

[Lacessit]

23 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Neither would I, the borderline between subsistance and having a life gets blurred for too many in LOS.

 

But I'd like to make two more comments.

 

a) The wise thing to do would have been to transfer savings prior to Jan 1, 2023 during 2023 and then transfer all your 2023 income on the first business day of 2024.

 

b) The lady you met at the tax office was helping you to make your tax return, so she responded on the basis of the information you gave her, lies or not she didn't care. She wasn't auditing you, but you will have to provide proof once you get audited.

Why should it matter when pre-2024 savings are transferred, when remittances from them are tax-free?

 

2023 income transferred in 2024 IMO would be taxable. AFAIK it's not if transferred in 2023.

Edited Wednesday at 12:34 AM by Lacessit

[CharlieKo]

12 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

We'll simply keep remittances in 2024 to my account below 320,000 baht to be safe. 

 

I think you will find you would need to remit over 600,000 baht before you would pay any taxes here in Thailand. As after deduction of all allowances the balance would fall below a taxable amount.   

[jayceenik]

6 hours ago, Lorry said:

I agree. 

But sometimes I wonder what the TRD is going to believe we can live on.

Does every farang have to pay taxes on remittances of 65,000 monthly? 

Not so in Korat, that's very nice to hear and gives hope. 

 

BTW In my home-country, it's common to pay taxes on fictitious income as the revenue service states that it is not possible to live on your (truthfully)  stated real income. 

I'm living in LOS but I have to file an income tax return to the Belgian RD because of my Belgian pension. It's a joint filing with my Thai wife. She has no income other than my ATM and I declare zero income for her. Still the Belgian RD assumes a small fictitious income for her.

[Lorry]

3 hours ago, CharlieKo said:

 

I think you will find you would need to remit over 600,000 baht before you would pay any taxes here in Thailand. As after deduction of all allowances the balance would fall below a taxable amount.   

How do you arrive at 600,000?

 

For a single tax payer (not filing together with wife):

60,000 personal deduction

150,000 tax rate 0%

So, 210,000 are really safe.

If you are over 65, add 190,000, that allows you to remit 400,000 without paying taxes. 

If your (remitted?) income is a pension,  you can add up to 100,000, and everything else is more complicated and depends on your individual circumstances. See the tax guide.

 

Question at @Mike Listeror whoever knows it: the 100,000 tax free because it's a pension - is this only possible if this pension has been remitted?

[JohnnyBD]

3 hours ago, Lacessit said:

2023 income transferred in 2024 IMO would be taxable. AFAIK it's not if transferred in 2023.

I believe the TRD has stated that all pre-2024 income (ex., 2023 income remitted in 2024) is tax exempt. Any assessable income that was remitted in same year it was derived (ex., 2023 income remitted in 2023) was always taxable. Going forward, both the previous year's income (ex., 2024 income remitted in 2025) and the same year's income will be taxable.

Edited Wednesday at 03:57 AM by JohnnyBD

[Mike Lister]

23 minutes ago, Lorry said:

How do you arrive at 600,000?

 

For a single tax payer (not filing together with wife):

60,000 personal deduction

150,000 tax rate 0%

So, 210,000 are really safe.

If you are over 65, add 190,000, that allows you to remit 400,000 without paying taxes. 

If your (remitted?) income is a pension,  you can add up to 100,000, and everything else is more complicated and depends on your individual circumstances. See the tax guide.

 

Question at @Mike Listeror whoever knows it: the 100,000 tax free because it's a pension - is this only possible if this pension has been remitted?

It's 50% if remitted pension income, up to 100k. Yes, it must be remitted otherwise it's not income. Yes, the allowance is because it is pension income, there is however a corresponding allowance for non-pension income earned from employment, as I recall.

 

EDIT TO ADD: I think the earlier poster included the 150k zero rated band in his total.

Edited Wednesday at 04:12 AM by Mike Lister

[NJHOUSE]

23 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

I believe the TRD has stated that all pre-2024 income (ex., 2023 income remitted in 2024) is tax exempt. Any assessable income that was remitted in same year it was derived (ex., 2023 income remitted in 2023) was always taxable. Going forward, both the previous year's income (ex., 2024 income remitted in 2025) and the same year's income will be taxable.

Correct. Look up Por. 162/2566 Lacessit is wrong.

[Ben Zioner]

5 hours ago, Lacessit said:

2023 income transferred in 2024 IMO would be taxable.

Nope, remittances are taxables if earned and remitted after Jan 1, 2024.

[NoDisplayName]

2 hours ago, Lorry said:

How do you arrive at 600,000?

 

For a single tax payer (not filing together with wife):

60,000 personal deduction

150,000 tax rate 0%

So, 210,000 are really safe.

If you are over 65, add 190,000, that allows you to remit 400,000 without paying taxes. 

If your (remitted?) income is a pension,  you can add up to 100,000, and everything else is more complicated and depends on your individual circumstances. See the tax guide.

 

Question at @Mike Listeror whoever knows it: the 100,000 tax free because it's a pension - is this only possible if this pension has been remitted?

 

We need clarification on the deductions.  @Mike Lister

 

As a SINGLE filer under 65 with no pension, I can claim 60K for myself, 60K for wife, 25K for health insurance premium paid for self, and the first 150K is taxed at 0%.  That's 295,000 baht for certain.

 

There is a separate line for wife 60K deduction, and separate lines for parents' health insurance premium paid on the tax form, but NO separate line for wife's premium paid.  Are there different versions of the form for filing single or married?

 

How and where would I claim wife's health insurance deduction?

 

Is the deduction tied to whether the health insurance premium is paid to a Thai company?

 

If we file married, does this change the bracket for the 0% tax rate (as on US tax rate charts)?

[NoDisplayName]

5 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

a) The wise thing to do would have been to transfer savings prior to Jan 1, 2023 during 2023 and then transfer all your 2023 income on the first business day of 2024.

 

Due to nationality, I must take actions based on both Thai tax residency and US global tax hegemony.

 

My first and main responsibility is to faithfully follow the rules established by my masters in Mordor.  Regardless of where my meatbag physically resides, there is forever and always

"One Tax Code to rule them all, One Tax Code to find them, One Tax Treaty to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them^"

Transferring ANY savings or income must be done in the context of how my masters will view my temporary stewardship of what they believe to be their property.

[NoDisplayName]

6 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

b) The lady you met at the tax office was helping you to make your tax return, so she responded on the basis of the information you gave her, lies or not she didn't care. She wasn't auditing you, but you will have to provide proof once you get audited.

 

Under the new 2024 tax law, I intend to keep annual remittances in the 300-350K range.  Add to that already taxed Thai dividends and interest.

 

Hardly worth the effort of an audit, where if ALL remittances are determined to be assessable income, will result in at most 2,000 baht tax (plus small fine?)

 

Who conducts the audit?  District office or Provincial office or Bangkok?

[Mike Teavee]

17 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

We're thinking about filing a 2023 return online next week to test the system.  See if we can file without uploading documents, see if we can set up direct deposit of refund check.  If no bank interest statement needed (I have all the numbers in the passbooks), might as well try.

As you're already past the 2023 filing date I wouldn't recommend "Poking the Bear" by filing a late return but I am considering testing out the online system next year by filing a return (for 2024 obviously). 

 

FWIW I'm limiting my remittances to 235K for me (60K personal allowance, 25K health insurance & 150K 0% tax) & 210K for the GF (60K personal allowance + 150K 0% tax) using savings already in Thailand to make up shortfall, I estimate this should mean that they owe me approx. 8K in withheld tax which even allowing for some tax being due on it, should mean a refund of around 7K.     

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 06:29 AM by Mike Teavee

[Ben Zioner]

12 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

FWIW I'm limiting my remittances to 235K for me (60K personal allowance, 25K health insurance & 150K 0% tax) & 210K for the GF (60K personal allowance + 150K 0% tax) using savings already in Thailand to make up shortfall, I estimate this should mean that they owe me approx. 8K in withheld tax which even allowing for some tax being due on it, should mean a refund of around 7K.     

Well simple math would indicate that your "savings already in Thailand" must be quite large..

[NanLaew]

12 hours ago, Lorry said:

I agree. 

But sometimes I wonder what the TRD is going to believe we can live on.

Does every farang have to pay taxes on remittances of 65,000 monthly? 

Not so in Korat, that's very nice to hear and gives hope. 

 

BTW In my home-country, it's common to pay taxes on fictitious income as the revenue service states that it is not possible to live on your (truthfully)  stated real income. 

 

How about the RD not caring about what we claim we can live on?

 

Tax assessment, like in most other countries, will be on a calendar year of remittances, not on a monthly basis.

 

If the RD needs any guidance, they can always check with Immigration, who still reckon THB400,000 a year is enough if you're married or THB800,000 a year if you're retired (and still shopping for Mrs Right).

[Lorry]

8 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

How about the RD not caring about what we claim we can live on?

 

That's what I fear.

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

We need clarification on the deductions.  @Mike Lister

 

As a SINGLE filer under 65 with no pension, I can claim 60K for myself, 60K for wife, 25K for health insurance premium paid for self, and the first 150K is taxed at 0%.  That's 295,000 baht for certain.

 

There is a separate line for wife 60K deduction, and separate lines for parents' health insurance premium paid on the tax form, but NO separate line for wife's premium paid.  Are there different versions of the form for filing single or married?

 

How and where would I claim wife's health insurance deduction?

 

Is the deduction tied to whether the health insurance premium is paid to a Thai company?

 

If we file married, does this change the bracket for the 0% tax rate (as on US tax rate charts)?

One step at a time.

 

If you're a single filer you can't claim your wife;s deductions. Are you married and if so, are you filing single or jointly?

 

Bur yes, the health insurance premium must be paid to a company in Thailand.

[Lorry]

1 hour ago, Ben Zioner said:

Well simple math would indicate that your "savings already in Thailand" must be quite large..

Now we arrived at the question "how much can you live on?"

Of course, one can live in Thailand on 235,000 a year - many Thais do.

If you live in Issarn and rent-free, it's actually easy. 

But it doesn't matter at all whether Mike Teavee can do it or Ben cannot - it matters what the  TRD thinks. And this we don't know. 

 

BTW "quite large savings" is very relative. I know farangs here who think 200 B is a lot of money. I also know farangs who have 5 or 10 or more MB in their Thai bank.  

Edited Wednesday at 07:44 AM by Lorry

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, Lorry said:

1 hour ago, NanLaew said:

How about the RD not caring about what we claim we can live on?

 

That's what I fear.

 

You fear that the RD will do the same as your 'home country' with regard to "fictitious income"?

 

That's irrational fear. I was audited by the IRS but it wasn't because they didn't believe me. I had made an honest miscalculation on allowances that I had claimed.

 

I am not confident that the RD's tax legislature is mature or robust enough to start randomly auditing people. But who knows, maybe they've always been legally bound to do audits on their 'customers' and, like in the case of this not-so-new tax law, the rules are already in place, but they haven't been told by a seated Prime Minister to start enforcing them?

 

BTW, you can tell us what your home country is. It's all anonymous here.

Edited Wednesday at 09:17 AM by NanLaew

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

Bur yes, the health insurance premium must be paid to a company in Thailand.

 

I was just joshin' when asking if the deduction only applied to Thai health insurance.

 

I didn't think even the Thais would do that.

 

I gave them too much credit.

 

 

[RupertIII]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Bur yes, the health insurance premium must be paid to a company in Thailand.

Does this include the Gov't, social security, run health insurance, (pakun sang kom?)? Only THB432 pm but every little bit helps!

[Mike Lister]

7 minutes ago, RupertIII said:

Does this include the Gov't, social security, run health insurance, (pakun sang kom?)? Only THB432 pm but every little bit helps!

All payments made to the Social Security fund are tax deductible.

[Mike Teavee]

5 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

Well simple math would indicate that your "savings already in Thailand" must be quite large..

Whoops, simple maths is beyond me as I completely messed up how much Withheld Interest I'll be able to claim back & it's more like 60K not 8K (a little over 3.5M on deposit at 1.7 %) so now I will be filing a Tax Return for 2024. 

 

NB. Not trying to "Show Off" here, I'm 19 months away from receiving a pension & whilst I do have passive income in the UK, I don't like to have to rely on it ( https://home.barclays/content/dam/home-barclays/documents/investor-relations/IRNewsPresentations/2020news/20200331-Barclays-Dividend-RNS.pdf 3 days before it was due to pay me enough money to live on for 3 months) so when I moved to Thailand full time in Feb 2020 I moved 6 years living expenses over with me to last me until my pensions kick in.

 

Very Stupid as the SGD is 20% stronger now than when I moved it, but seemingly smart now as it means I don't have to remit any money for the next 3 years if I don't want to, but by sticking to 435K remittance (my & GF's) tax free numbers) it will last me 4 years - I only need it to last me 19 months.  

 

I know all about the 1Million Bank Guarantee but IMHO if Bangkok Bank ever did go bust the THB would take such a nosedive I'd probably be much better off financially even if I lost 2.5Million THB so not worried about that at all.

  

 

Edited Wednesday at 12:14 PM by Mike Teavee