Oklahoma Mandates Bible Teaching in Public Schools

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

"We began by asking our 18- to 20-year-old respondents (82.4 percent of whom reported attending public schools) whether they had ever been taught in class or heard about from an adult at school each of six concepts—four of which are central to critical race theory."

 

A survey based on an blatantly flawed methodology since the questions suggest an answer. The proper questions would have been an open ended one:  Where did you learn that etc...?

 

Says you, do you have anything apart from your opinion, like a link to disprove this study?

 

Did you notice all the other elements and questions after your first sentence you quoted? After they had begun what did they do?

 

"For instance, 93 percent of respondents reported either being taught (85 percent) or hearing from an adult at school about at least one of the eight listed concepts, with an average of 4.3 concepts; 90 percent reported either being taught (80 percent) or hearing about at least one of the five CRT-related concepts, with an average of 3.0 concepts; and 74 percent reported either being taught (54 percent) or hearing about at least one of the three gender-related concepts, with an average of 1.3 concepts. While these figures are for the sample overall, they do not meaningfully differ by school type. Levels of exposure were similar regardless of whether respondents reported attending public or private high schools."

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Says you, do you have anything apart from your opinion, like a link to disprove this study?

 

Did you notice all the other elements and questions after your first sentence you quoted? After they had begun what did they do?

 

"For instance, 93 percent of respondents reported either being taught (85 percent) or hearing from an adult at school about at least one of the eight listed concepts, with an average of 4.3 concepts; 90 percent reported either being taught (80 percent) or hearing about at least one of the five CRT-related concepts, with an average of 3.0 concepts; and 74 percent reported either being taught (54 percent) or hearing about at least one of the three gender-related concepts, with an average of 1.3 concepts. While these figures are for the sample overall, they do not meaningfully differ by school type. Levels of exposure were similar regardless of whether respondents reported attending public or private high schools."

Do you understand what a leading question is? I don't need links to disprove a study if it's based on leading questions. If a question suggests an answer, it's a leading question. And given that city journal is an extremely right wing publication, it's obvious what kind of answer they're looking for.

[Yellowtail]

If the citizens of Oklahoma want the ten commandments taught in their schools, why should they not? 

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

Do you understand what a leading question is? I don't need links to disprove a study if it's based on leading questions. If a question suggests an answer, it's a leading question. And given that city journal is an extremely right wing publication, it's obvious what kind of answer they're looking for.

Do you have a list of all the questions?

 

Here's one:

 

Specifically, we asked those who reported being taught at least one of the listed concepts in a high school class what, if anything, they were taught about arguments opposing them. 

 

Yes I understand what a leading question is and the above is not one of those.

 

 

[placeholder]

Just now, Bkk Brian said:

Do you have a list of all the questions?

 

Here's one:

 

Specifically, we asked those who reported being taught at least one of the listed concepts in a high school class what, if anything, they were taught about arguments opposing them. 

 

Yes I understand what a leading question is and the above is not one of those.

 

 

So, a follow-up question based on a leading question is going to get a valid answer? You really want to defend that? Have you considered the possibility that they answered that way because they weren't actually taught those concepts in school in the first place? So they had no actual experience to draw upon?

Now an honest survey could be open ended, Or it could be multiple choice. Such as: 

Where did you learn about the concept of white privilege

a)school

b)the internet

c) friends

d)religious institution

e)family

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, placeholder said:

So, a follow-up question based on a leading question is going to get a valid answer? You really want to defend that? Have you considered the possibility that they answered that way because they weren't actually taught those concepts in school in the first place? So they had no actual experience to draw upon?

Now an honest survey could be open ended, Or it could be multiple choice. Such as: 

Where did you learn about the concept of white privilege

a)school

b)the internet

c) friends

d)religious institution

e)family

 

 

Tell you what, you made a claim on them being leading questions but you don't have a list of those questions to make a judgement, the one question I pointed out to you is NOT a leading question. 

 

When you get the list of all the questions from the Manhattan Institute which did the study get back to me.

[jingjai9]

When I went to school in the USA we were required to recite a prayer out loud either before or after the Pledge of Allegiance (I cannot recall which). Then in 1962 we switched to silent prayer. The USA definitely secularized in the past 50 years or so. The problem is that when they removed religious teaching and tried to make the schools more and more separate from the church, they never replaced the Christian values with anything. Students were not really learning ethics and morals. Couple this with the termination of the Hayes code (1966) which had governed the content of Hollywood movies since 1934. Many would argue the USA has gradually become morally bankrupt over the last half century.

There is little double we need to teach civics and civility in public schools. The troublesome area however is imposing Christian teachings on the entire population as a requirement. I am not anti-Christian nor am I opposed to anyone's right to worship. Aren't there many similar values common to the major religions that could be culled in order to restore morality and ethics in education without a religious label? 

[NativeBob]

1 hour ago, mokwit said:

Thai university students used to interpret their uniform as a 12 inch miniskirt and a blouse two sizes too small. Prayuth Govt put a stop to that.

[placeholder]

4 minutes ago, jingjai9 said:

When I went to school in the USA we were required to recite a prayer out loud either before or after the Pledge of Allegiance (I cannot recall which). Then in 1962 we switched to silent prayer. The USA definitely secularized in the past 50 years or so. The problem is that when they removed religious teaching and tried to make the schools more and more separate from the church, they never replaced the Christian values with anything. Students were not really learning ethics and morals. Couple this with the termination of the Hayes code (1966) which had governed the content of Hollywood movies since 1934. Many would argue the USA has gradually become morally bankrupt over the last half century.

There is little double we need to teach civics and civility in public schools. The troublesome area however is imposing Christian teachings on the entire population as a requirement. I am not anti-Christian nor am I opposed to anyone's right to worship. Aren't there many similar values common to the major religions that could be culled in order to restore morality and ethics in education without a religious label? 

It's called "Civics".

[jingjai9]

3 minutes ago, NativeBob said:

 

[jingjai9]

Imagine how awkward it could be teaching students in the classroom in this attire.

[placeholder]

6 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Tell you what, you made a claim on them being leading questions but you don't have a list of those questions to make a judgement, the one question I pointed out to you is NOT a leading question. 

 

When you get the list of all the questions from the Manhattan Institute which did the study get back to me.

Funny, you don't  have a list either. And yet you use their reported results as evidence. Here's how the article characterized the questions:

We began by asking our 18- to 20-year-old respondents (82.4 percent of whom reported attending public schools) whether they had ever been taught in class or heard about from an adult at school each of six concepts—four of which are central to critical race theory. 

That said, the article is quite clear about the nature of the questions: Does this really leave any room for doubt that the questions are not open-ended or multiple choice?

[jingjai9]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

It's called "Civics".

Civics is the study of rights and obligations a citizen has in a society.

Civility is formal politeness and behavior. This is stressed in Thai schools.

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, placeholder said:

Funny, you don't  have a list either. And yet you use their reported results as evidence. Here's how the article characterized the questions:

We began by asking our 18- to 20-year-old respondents (82.4 percent of whom reported attending public schools) whether they had ever been taught in class or heard about from an adult at school each of six concepts—four of which are central to critical race theory. 

That said, the article is quite clear about the nature of the questions: Does this really leave any room for doubt that the questions are not open-ended or multiple choice?

I have no need for a list, I am not making any claims on the questions being leading because I have not seen them, the one I did read and post is not leading.

[Yellowtail]

17 minutes ago, placeholder said:

So, a follow-up question based on a leading question is going to get a valid answer? You really want to defend that? Have you considered the possibility that they answered that way because they weren't actually taught those concepts in school in the first place? So they had no actual experience to draw upon?

Now an honest survey could be open ended, Or it could be multiple choice. Such as: 

Where did you learn about the concept of white privilege

a)school

b)the internet

c) friends

d)religious institution

e)family

 

 

How is that not a leading question? 

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

I have no need for a list, I am not making any claims on the questions being leading because I have not seen them, the one I did read and post is not leading.

A follow-up question based on suspect data is pointless. In the case you cited, the question rests on the assumption that the answers the students gave to the leading question are accurate. But if they're not, then the answers won't be either.

 

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

A follow-up question based on suspect data is pointless. In the case you cited, the question rests on the assumption that the answers the students gave to the leading question are accurate. But if they're not, then the answers won't be either.

 

Yet you still don't have a list of the questions and claiming they are pointless and disregarding the study when you've not read it...lol

[placeholder]

8 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Yet you still don't have a list of the questions and claiming they are pointless and disregarding the study when you've not read it...lol

The authors of the piece very clearly state "

We began by asking our 18- to 20-year-old respondents (82.4 percent of whom reported attending public schools) whether they had ever been taught in class or heard about from an adult at school each of six concepts—four of which are central to critical race theory. 

What is there about this statement that is so difficult for you to understand? And do you understand that it was you who introduced the results of this survey even though you don't know what the exact questions were either? So, to your way of thinking, does credulousness beat scepticism?

 

Anyway, your objection is ridiculous given the very clear characterization by the authors of the basic questions.

[Bkk Brian]

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

The authors of the piece very clearly state "

We began by asking our 18- to 20-year-old respondents (82.4 percent of whom reported attending public schools) whether they had ever been taught in class or heard about from an adult at school each of six concepts—four of which are central to critical race theory. 

What is there about this statement that is so difficult for you to understand? And do you understand that it was you who introduced the results of this survey even though you don't know what the exact questions were either? So, to your way of thinking, does credulousness beat scepticism?

 

Anyway, your objection is ridiculous given the very clear characterization by the authors of the basic questions.

Yes you keep posting the same thing and still have no list of the actual questions. I also gave an example of one of the questions but I wont repeat it.....lol

[mokwit]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

"We began by asking our 18- to 20-year-old respondents (82.4 percent of whom reported attending public schools) whether they had ever been taught in class or heard about from an adult at school each of six concepts—four of which are central to critical race theory."

 

A survey based on an blatantly flawed methodology since the questions suggest an answer. The proper questions would have been an open ended one:  Where did you learn that etc...?

 

How would you then draw conclusions from that data i.e. how would you compare answers - they might not say "school" and is e.g. "from a book" a school text book or a book from somewhere else? Prompting for answers distorts the data.. Survey questions have suggested answers allow for better conclusions from the data, but are of course are open to abuse by answer choices given.

[mokwit]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Do you understand what a leading question is? I don't need links to disprove a study if it's based on leading questions. If a question suggests an answer, it's a leading question. And given that city journal is an extremely right wing publication, it's obvious what kind of answer they're looking for.

It's not that simple if you want to be able to be sure answers mean the same thing. See my post above, and I reiterate it is open to abuse. You literally have to make a judgement on the questions, which in many cases are not  reported in the PR release. This applies in general to ALL surveys.

[mokwit]

40 minutes ago, jingjai9 said:

Civics is the study of rights and obligations a citizen has in a society.

Civility is formal politeness and behavior. This is stressed in Thai schools.

Are you perhaps confusing civility with servility?

[bubblegum]

Coming up soon! Don't you miss it ! Slavery will be legal !

[mokwit]

48 minutes ago, jingjai9 said:

Imagine how awkward it could be teaching students in the classroom in this attire.

I did and turned down a lecturing job at a public university renowned for racy uniform interpretations. Why torment yourself? The rule is as: Phraaa wat mai gin gai wat.

[save the frogs]

They should teach them about King Solomon. If you study hard and get good grades and make a lot of money, maybe you too can have 300 concubines one day, boys. 

 

He had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines; and his wives turned away his heart. [4] For when Solomon was old his wives turned away his heart after other gods; and his heart was not wholly true to the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.

 

 

[Cory1848]

2 hours ago, wwest5829 said:

Ironically, both are great examples of the blending of earlier pagan beliefs into the latter founded Christianity. Original timing of both tied to earlier pagan celebrations. Study of history allows us to have greater understanding of our own times.

Exactly. If I were a teacher in Oklahoma tasked with teaching the Bible, I would gladly do so, placing that text in its proper context while introducing texts from other religions. A study of comparative religions can be very valuable. If that’s not quite what the troglodytes in the Oklahoma legislature had in mind, screw ’em.

[placeholder]

19 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Yes you keep posting the same thing and still have no list of the actual questions. I also gave an example of one of the questions but I wont repeat it.....lol

And so do you.

But the thing is, what the author(s) of the piece said was about the question was clear. And it exactly matches how I characterized those questions.,

And it should be obvious that a question that assumes answers to a leading question are true, is not going to get results any truer than the answers those questions elicited. If, for example a question asks did you see a unicorn in your garden this morning. And 50% of the respondents way yes, then is asking them "what color was that unicorn?" going to get an answer that corresponds to reality?

 

[connda]

Well, in California they mandate kids learn how to put a condom on a cucumber when the attend mandatory sex education classes which are graphic.

US States can do as they please.  Don't like it?  Don't live in that State.  Ya got 49 others to choose from. 

[Bkk Brian]

8 minutes ago, placeholder said:

And so do you.

But the thing is, what the author(s) of the piece said was about the question was clear. And it exactly matches how I characterized those questions.,

And it should be obvious that a question that assumes answers to a leading question are true, is not going to get results any truer than the answers those questions elicited. If, for example a question asks did you see a unicorn in your garden this morning. And 50% of the respondents way yes, then is asking them "what color was that unicorn?" going to get an answer that corresponds to reality?

 

I will carry on to, I posted an article that mentions a study (among other examples that it links to), you are claiming it uses leading questions for that study but you don't have a list of all the questions. 

[Cory1848]

12 hours ago, mokwit said:

Likewise the teaching of woke progressiveism, Critical Race Theory and that Socialism is viable.

 

It seems that this is a reaction to what is being taught by teachers who have exceeded their mandate.

And how does teaching these things exceed a teacher’s mandate? Progressivism has long historical roots and advocates social justice; what have you got against that? There is indeed a strong argument that racism is institutionally embedded, as CRT claims, and why shouldn’t the pros and cons of such arguments be taught to high school students? And socialism is indeed viable, as demonstrated by socialist-leaning systems found in many European countries.

 

I’m also, by the way, in favor of teaching the Bible, in its historical context, alongside other religions. Knowledge is good!