Its Happening - Law to Tax Overseas Income Now in Progress

[Rolo89]

 

 

 

e.g. Foreigners will leave . Foreigners will spend less than 180 days in Thailand resulting in spending less . Foreigners who stay will bring less money to Thailand . Foreigners who stay will make budget cuts and spend less money in Thailand, which will impact VAT tax revenues for the government . Foreigners will try and avoid it through various methods

 

It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

 

 

 

 

I think Thailand is so desperate for money that they'll do it and hope for the best, even if lots of reports suggest overall tax take will be reduced.

[Talon]

3 hours ago, Rolo89 said:

 

I think Thailand is so desperate for money that they'll do it and hope for the best, even if lots of reports suggest overall tax take will be reduced.

Yes, governments with wrongheaded ideas have a way of doubling down on those ideas. We see it all over the world. 

[chiang mai]

4 hours ago, Rolo89 said:

 

I think Thailand is so desperate for money that they'll do it and hope for the best, even if lots of reports suggest overall tax take will be reduced.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/general/2881788/state-revenue-collection-on-course-to-hit-target

[shdmn]

16 hours ago, Ricohoc said:

 

This reference to "living expenses" is something I have never seen before in these discussions. That is in the current tax law?

 

That's the only reason I bring any funds into Thailand every month, and almost 100% of it is food, utilities, auto fuel, home maintenance. No rent, no loans of any kind to pay off, etc. Debt free.

There will probably be a flood of first hand info once people start filing around Feb/Mar.

[Joebuzzz]

On 10/13/2024 at 1:54 AM, Gknrd said:

Give ma all ya money or get out of Thailand... They have been chipping away at this for years. 

I think I will comply.

[wmlc]

If anyone is interested in how banks are obligated to report to the Revenue dept about your Thai bank account activities, here it is: 

 

There is a law to follow for banks to report to the Revenue Dept. If it does not fall under this law, no transactions will be reported to TRD.

 

On 20 March 2019, the Government published the Act to Amend the Revenue Code (No. 48), 2562 be. E. , in the Government Gazette. This Act became effective on 21 March 2019.

 

Under this Act, the following entities have the duty to report information about a person who made certain types of transactions during the previous year to the Revenue Department by March of the following year:

 

1. Financial institutions under the law governing such businesses.

 

2. Governmental financial institutions established under specific laws.

 

3. Electronic money service providers under the law governing payment systems.

 

These certain types of transactions must have one of the following characteristics:

 

1. Depositing or accepting transfers of money in all bank accounts 3,000 times or more in the previous year.

 

2. Depositing or accepting transfers of money in all bank accounts 400 times or more, for a total amount of THB 2 million or more in the previous year. So you must have 400 transactions and the 2 million, not either or.

 

The entity liable to prepare such a report must submit the first report for the year 2019 to the Revenue Department by 31 March 2020.

 

Ministerial regulations or announcements under this Act shall be completed within 180 days of the date that this Act comes into force.

 

The information to be reported, and the reporting method, shall be as specified in ministerial regulations.

 

If the entity responsible for reporting this information fails to do so as prescribed under this Act, the Director-General of the Revenue Department has the power to instruct that entity to file the report by the period required. Failure to report the information by the time specified by the Director-General of the Revenue Department may result in that entity being subject to a fine of no more than THB 100,000, and no more than THB 10,000 per day, until the report is submitted.

 

So, unless they amend this law, nothing more will be done. To amend this law, the government needs time to draft it, present it to parliament and if approved, send it to the senate to approve. Then publish it in the government gazette. This all takes time. So, if this process has not started yet, alas it wont be done in time for the end of this year. Therefore, I don't foresee any changes to the banking laws that will help the Thai government enforce the 180 day tax law on foreighners. Nothing will change.

 

Further, for those of you listening to some of the other law firms who are peddling tax ID set up for 5000-7000 baht a pop. You can easily do it by yourself for free if TRD will even give you one or if you insist to hire a firm to get it for you, the case is worth 2500 Baht. Thats what we charge. It's so dam easy to get one. Please do not contact me, as we don't want to do them. We only do them for new employees who are hired by our clients. 

 

My advice to everyone on this new tax law is to not worry about this until if and when they announce enforcement and that wont happen anytime soon as too much needs to be done internally for enforcement to take place. Not enough time before the end of 2024 and it’s not the governments top priority. As much as many expats seem to think, they are not so important for Thailand. Today the Thai government is focusing on the development of the economy and disaster relief due to the floods in the north and BKK. Yes, you can argue that this will help the economy if they go after the tax dollars from foreigners, but in most cases, the guys that do decide to file, wont have to pay because of the DTA. This  law is only pissing people off that don’t file taxes in their home country so they want to keep that same situation here. Until enforcement is announced, everyone should stop worrying.

 

 

Edited October 15 by wmlc

[wmlc]

18 hours ago, Rolo89 said:

 

I think Thailand is so desperate for money that they'll do it and hope for the best, even if lots of reports suggest overall tax take will be reduced.

I disagree. Foreigners think they are on the Thai government's mind, but in actual fact, the Thai government couldn't care less. Too many other problems. 

[anrcaccount]

1 hour ago, wmlc said:

If anyone is interested in how banks are obligated to report to the Revenue dept about your Thai bank account activities, here it is: 

 

There is a law to follow for banks to report to the Revenue Dept. If it does not fall under this law, no transactions will be reported to TRD.

 

On 20 March 2019, the Government published the Act to Amend the Revenue Code (No. 48), 2562 be. E. , in the Government Gazette. This Act became effective on 21 March 2019.

 

Under this Act, the following entities have the duty to report information about a person who made certain types of transactions during the previous year to the Revenue Department by March of the following year:

 

1. Financial institutions under the law governing such businesses.

 

2. Governmental financial institutions established under specific laws.

 

3. Electronic money service providers under the law governing payment systems.

 

These certain types of transactions must have one of the following characteristics:

 

1. Depositing or accepting transfers of money in all bank accounts 3,000 times or more in the previous year.

 

2. Depositing or accepting transfers of money in all bank accounts 400 times or more, for a total amount of THB 2 million or more in the previous year. So you must have 400 transactions and the 2 million, not either or.

 

The entity liable to prepare such a report must submit the first report for the year 2019 to the Revenue Department by 31 March 2020.

 

Ministerial regulations or announcements under this Act shall be completed within 180 days of the date that this Act comes into force.

 

The information to be reported, and the reporting method, shall be as specified in ministerial regulations.

 

If the entity responsible for reporting this information fails to do so as prescribed under this Act, the Director-General of the Revenue Department has the power to instruct that entity to file the report by the period required. Failure to report the information by the time specified by the Director-General of the Revenue Department may result in that entity being subject to a fine of no more than THB 100,000, and no more than THB 10,000 per day, until the report is submitted.

 

So, unless they amend this law, nothing more will be done. To amend this law, the government needs time to draft it, present it to parliament and if approved, send it to the senate to approve. Then publish it in the government gazette. This all takes time. So, if this process has not started yet, alas it wont be done in time for the end of this year. Therefore, I don't foresee any changes to the banking laws that will help the Thai government enforce the 180 day tax law on foreighners. Nothing will change.

 

Spot on, well said.

 

Thanks for balancing out, with reality,  the constant paranoia / worrying we see in these type of threads.

 

Poor reporting, with sensationalist , inaccurate wording  like the article this thread is based on,  doesn't help the situation. 

 

 

1 hour ago, wmlc said:

 

Further, for those of you listening to some of the other law firms who are peddling tax ID set up for 5000-7000 baht a pop. You can easily do it by yourself for free if TRD will even give you one or if you insist to hire a firm to get it for you, the case is worth 2500 Baht. Thats what we charge. It's so dam easy to get one. Please do not contact me, as we don't want to do them. We only do them for new employees who are hired by our clients. 

 

The new firms that have sprung up are best described as opportunistic vultures, feeding off worry, taking advantage of peoples concern , and clearly overcharging while doing it! 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, wmlc said:

My advice to everyone on this new tax law is to not worry about this until if and when they announce enforcement and that wont happen anytime soon as too much needs to be done internally for enforcement to take place. Not enough time before the end of 2024 and it’s not the governments top priority. As much as many expats seem to think, they are not so important for Thailand. Today the Thai government is focusing on the development of the economy and disaster relief due to the floods in the north and BKK. Yes, you can argue that this will help the economy if they go after the tax dollars from foreigners, but in most cases, the guys that do decide to file, wont have to pay because of the DTA. This  law is only pissing people off that don’t file taxes in their home country so they want to keep that same situation here. Until enforcement is announced, everyone should stop worrying.

 

 

 

Spot on, again, well said. 

[Rolo89]

1 hour ago, wmlc said:

I disagree. Foreigners think they are on the Thai government's mind, but in actual fact, the Thai government couldn't care less. Too many other problems. 

Well, my post wasn't about foreigners. I think the Thai government's mind is on money. Whether that's wealthy Thai or foreigners is kind of irrelevant; they just want a source to shake for more.

[chiang mai]

2 hours ago, wmlc said:

If anyone is interested in how banks are obligated to report to the Revenue dept about your Thai bank account activities, here it is: 

 

There is a law to follow for banks to report to the Revenue Dept. If it does not fall under this law, no transactions will be reported to TRD.

 

On 20 March 2019, the Government published the Act to Amend the Revenue Code (No. 48), 2562 be. E. , in the Government Gazette. This Act became effective on 21 March 2019.

 

Under this Act, the following entities have the duty to report information about a person who made certain types of transactions during the previous year to the Revenue Department by March of the following year:

 

1. Financial institutions under the law governing such businesses.

 

2. Governmental financial institutions established under specific laws.

 

3. Electronic money service providers under the law governing payment systems.

 

These certain types of transactions must have one of the following characteristics:

 

1. Depositing or accepting transfers of money in all bank accounts 3,000 times or more in the previous year.

 

2. Depositing or accepting transfers of money in all bank accounts 400 times or more, for a total amount of THB 2 million or more in the previous year. So you must have 400 transactions and the 2 million, not either or.

 

The entity liable to prepare such a report must submit the first report for the year 2019 to the Revenue Department by 31 March 2020.

 

Ministerial regulations or announcements under this Act shall be completed within 180 days of the date that this Act comes into force.

 

The information to be reported, and the reporting method, shall be as specified in ministerial regulations.

 

If the entity responsible for reporting this information fails to do so as prescribed under this Act, the Director-General of the Revenue Department has the power to instruct that entity to file the report by the period required. Failure to report the information by the time specified by the Director-General of the Revenue Department may result in that entity being subject to a fine of no more than THB 100,000, and no more than THB 10,000 per day, until the report is submitted.

 

So, unless they amend this law, nothing more will be done. To amend this law, the government needs time to draft it, present it to parliament and if approved, send it to the senate to approve. Then publish it in the government gazette. This all takes time. So, if this process has not started yet, alas it wont be done in time for the end of this year. Therefore, I don't foresee any changes to the banking laws that will help the Thai government enforce the 180 day tax law on foreighners. Nothing will change.

 

Further, for those of you listening to some of the other law firms who are peddling tax ID set up for 5000-7000 baht a pop. You can easily do it by yourself for free if TRD will even give you one or if you insist to hire a firm to get it for you, the case is worth 2500 Baht. Thats what we charge. It's so dam easy to get one. Please do not contact me, as we don't want to do them. We only do them for new employees who are hired by our clients. 

 

My advice to everyone on this new tax law is to not worry about this until if and when they announce enforcement and that wont happen anytime soon as too much needs to be done internally for enforcement to take place. Not enough time before the end of 2024 and it’s not the governments top priority. As much as many expats seem to think, they are not so important for Thailand. Today the Thai government is focusing on the development of the economy and disaster relief due to the floods in the north and BKK. Yes, you can argue that this will help the economy if they go after the tax dollars from foreigners, but in most cases, the guys that do decide to file, wont have to pay because of the DTA. This  law is only pissing people off that don’t file taxes in their home country so they want to keep that same situation here. Until enforcement is announced, everyone should stop worrying.

 

 

 

44 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Spot on, well said.

 

Thanks for balancing out, with reality,  the constant paranoia / worrying we see in these type of threads.

 

Poor reporting, with sensationalist , inaccurate wording  like the article this thread is based on,  doesn't help the situation. 

 

 

 

The new firms that have sprung up are best described as opportunistic vultures, feeding off worry, taking advantage of peoples concern , and clearly overcharging while doing it! 

 

 

 

 

 

Spot on, again, well said. 

Both of you are referring to CRS and money laundering rules under AMLO which has nothing to do with banks reporting details of accounts  to TRD, from which they withheld the statutory 15% WHT on any interest earned. The latter already happens and has been happening for many many years.

 

 

Edited October 15 by chiang mai

[JimGant]

On 10/14/2024 at 4:14 AM, chiang mai said:

There is no tax aspect to remitted "living expenses" which are nothing more than inbound funds which may or may not be Thai tax assessable.

Indeed. IMMO-TH.com is completely off-base with their observation. More unhelpful misinformation.

[JimGant]

On 10/14/2024 at 2:37 AM, shdmn said:

It would be better to file even if you don't think you have to rather than having to deal with what may happen if you don't.

Out of curiosity.... If you're absolutely sure you have no taxable income for Thai tax purposes -- thus owe no taxes to Thailand -- what do you think might happen if you don't file? Yes, I know we're addressing 'risk tolerance' -- but that's exactly the point -- what, if any, risk exists? And if there's no risk, tolerance is not applicable. Nevermind.

[Purdey]

The Panama Papers leak in 2016 showed that a lot of rich Thais keep their money overseas. While we could look at those accounts as savings, where the money came from will never be known or taxed.

[anrcaccount]

4 hours ago, chiang mai said:

6 hours ago, wmlc said:

If anyone is interested in how banks are obligated to report to the Revenue dept about your Thai bank account activities, here it is: 

 

There is a law to follow for banks to report to the Revenue Dept. If it does not fall under this law, no transactions will be reported to TRD.

 

On 20 March 2019, the Government published the Act to Amend the Revenue Code (No. 48), 2562 be. E. , in the Government Gazette. This Act became effective on 21 March 2019.

 

Under this Act, the following entities have the duty to report information about a person who made certain types of transactions during the previous year to the Revenue Department by March of the following year:

 

1. Financial institutions under the law governing such businesses.

 

2. Governmental financial institutions established under specific laws.

 

3. Electronic money service providers under the law governing payment systems.

 

These certain types of transactions must have one of the following characteristics:

 

1. Depositing or accepting transfers of money in all bank accounts 3,000 times or more in the previous year.

 

2. Depositing or accepting transfers of money in all bank accounts 400 times or more, for a total amount of THB 2 million or more in the previous year. So you must have 400 transactions and the 2 million, not either or.

 

The entity liable to prepare such a report must submit the first report for the year 2019 to the Revenue Department by 31 March 2020.

 

Ministerial regulations or announcements under this Act shall be completed within 180 days of the date that this Act comes into force.

 

The information to be reported, and the reporting method, shall be as specified in ministerial regulations.

 

If the entity responsible for reporting this information fails to do so as prescribed under this Act, the Director-General of the Revenue Department has the power to instruct that entity to file the report by the period required. Failure to report the information by the time specified by the Director-General of the Revenue Department may result in that entity being subject to a fine of no more than THB 100,000, and no more than THB 10,000 per day, until the report is submitted.

 

So, unless they amend this law, nothing more will be done. To amend this law, the government needs time to draft it, present it to parliament and if approved, send it to the senate to approve. Then publish it in the government gazette. This all takes time. So, if this process has not started yet, alas it wont be done in time for the end of this year. Therefore, I don't foresee any changes to the banking laws that will help the Thai government enforce the 180 day tax law on foreighners. Nothing will change.

 

Further, for those of you listening to some of the other law firms who are peddling tax ID set up for 5000-7000 baht a pop. You can easily do it by yourself for free if TRD will even give you one or if you insist to hire a firm to get it for you, the case is worth 2500 Baht. Thats what we charge. It's so dam easy to get one. Please do not contact me, as we don't want to do them. We only do them for new employees who are hired by our clients. 

 

My advice to everyone on this new tax law is to not worry about this until if and when they announce enforcement and that wont happen anytime soon as too much needs to be done internally for enforcement to take place. Not enough time before the end of 2024 and it’s not the governments top priority. As much as many expats seem to think, they are not so important for Thailand. Today the Thai government is focusing on the development of the economy and disaster relief due to the floods in the north and BKK. Yes, you can argue that this will help the economy if they go after the tax dollars from foreigners, but in most cases, the guys that do decide to file, wont have to pay because of the DTA. This  law is only pissing people off that don’t file taxes in their home country so they want to keep that same situation here. Until enforcement is announced, everyone should stop worrying.

 

 

Expand  

 

4 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Spot on, well said.

 

Thanks for balancing out, with reality,  the constant paranoia / worrying we see in these type of threads.

 

Poor reporting, with sensationalist , inaccurate wording  like the article this thread is based on,  doesn't help the situation. 

 

 

 

The new firms that have sprung up are best described as opportunistic vultures, feeding off worry, taking advantage of peoples concern , and clearly overcharging while doing it! 

 

 

 

 

 

Spot on, again, well said. 

Expand  

Both of you are referring to CRS and money laundering rules under AMLO which has nothing to do with banks reporting details of accounts  to TRD, from which they withheld the statutory 15% WHT on any interest earned. The latter already happens and has been happening for many many years.

 

Can you please clarify exactly are you referring to, that 'has been happening for many many years'?

 

If the detailed account information and granular transactions were already being sent to the TRD, why would that amendment need to be passed?

 

 

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Can you please clarify exactly are you referring to, that 'has been happening for many many years'?

 

If the detailed account information and granular transactions were already being sent to the TRD, why would that amendment need to be passed?

 

 

For many years, people have been putting their money into banks here and have been paid interest. For many years, that interest has been subject to a 15% WHT which the banks have forwarded to the TRD. The 15% WHT that has been forwarded to TRD, has been accompanied by, at a minimum, the account holder name, ID card number/passport number and DOB. I know the latter to be true because those bank supplied details have always been in the TRD system  (for as long as I can remember), whenever I have filed income tax and have seen the bank  interest payments screen.

[anrcaccount]

2 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

For many years, people have been putting their money into banks here and have been paid interest. For many years, that interest has been subject to a 15% WHT which the banks have forwarded to the TRD. The 15% WHT that has been forwarded to TRD, has been accompanied by, at a minimum, the account holder name, ID card number/passport number and DOB. I know the latter to be true because those bank supplied details have always been in the TRD system  (for as long as I can remember), whenever I have filed income tax and have seen the bank  interest payments screen.

 

Right, I think there might be some confusion between what you describe, possibly because you are already registered in the TRD system and voluntarily file returns, vs what the poster WLMC was describing.

 

I understood the requirement for the banks to report "interest" only began in August 2019 :

 

https://sherrings.com/bank-savings-deposits-interest-income-tax-reporting-thailand.html

 

Which is in fact, after the requirement to report 'deposit and transfer' information, for certain groups began in March 2019, as described in user WLMC's post.  

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Right, I think there might be some confusion between what you describe, possibly because you are already registered in the TRD system and voluntarily file returns, vs what the poster WLMC was describing.

 

I understood the requirement for the banks to report "interest" only began in August 2019 :

 

https://sherrings.com/bank-savings-deposits-interest-income-tax-reporting-thailand.html

 

Which is in fact, after the requirement to report 'deposit and transfer' information, for certain groups began in March 2019, as described in user WLMC's post.  

I can't remember how many years I've been reclaiming WHT on interest from Thai banks but it's certainly goes back to at least 2012. The process for doing that was to obtain a letter from the bank, setting out the account holder details and ID, along with gross, net and tax paid amounts. The TRD office would complete the relevant parts of the tax return which I would sign, three week a later I'd receive a cheque or a deposit. Over the years since, TRD has automated the electronic interface so they are able to confirm the contents of the letter, via their system, in real time. Previously, that was verified centrally, or so I was led to believe. Electronic interface and automated or not, banks have been sending account details of people who had tax withheld, for at least a decade.

[anrcaccount]

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

2 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Right, I think there might be some confusion between what you describe, possibly because you are already registered in the TRD system and voluntarily file returns, vs what the poster WLMC was describing.

 

I understood the requirement for the banks to report "interest" only began in August 2019 :

 

https://sherrings.com/bank-savings-deposits-interest-income-tax-reporting-thailand.html

 

Which is in fact, after the requirement to report 'deposit and transfer' information, for certain groups began in March 2019, as described in user WLMC's post.  

I can't remember how many years I've been reclaiming WHT on interest from Thai banks but it's certainly goes back to at least 2012. The process for doing that was to obtain a letter from the bank, setting out the account holder details and ID, along with gross, net and tax paid amounts. The TRD office would complete the relevant parts of the tax return which I would sign, three week a later I'd receive a cheque or a deposit. Over the years since, TRD has automated the electronic interface so they are able to confirm the contents of the letter, via their system, in real time. Previously, that was verified centrally, or so I was led to believe. Electronic interface and automated or not, banks have been sending account details of people who had tax withheld, for at least a decade.

 

I think you misinterpret this. IMO, the interest income data is only sent to the TRD for those who have already registered a TIN at their bank and are trying to reclaim the interest WHT. This represents a very small proportion of those foreigners with Thai bank accounts. 

 

For everyone ( tax residents and non tax residents) , the WHT is deducted automatically at 15%.

 

In the minority cases ( like yours) , where the individual is a registered Thai tax filer and wants to reclaim the interest already deducted as part of an overall PIT filing, then the interest data is sent to TRD.

 

Otherwise, it is not.  Here's how one of the Thai banks describes it. 

 

https://www.krungsri.com/en/about-krungsri/about-us/overview/announce/exemption-tax-interest-savings-deposit

 

 

If I have this straight then, it is not correct to state as below, because it isn't what typically occurs: 

 

"banks reporting details of accounts  to TRD, from which they withheld the statutory 15% WHT on any interest earned. The latter already happens and has been happening for many many years."

 

If I have this wrong, happy to be corrected! 

Edited October 15 by anrcaccount
more info

[chiang mai]

42 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

I think you misinterpret this. IMO, the interest income data is only sent to the TRD for those who have already registered a TIN at their bank and are trying to reclaim the interest WHT. This represents a very small proportion of those foreigners with Thai bank accounts. 

 

For everyone ( tax residents and non tax residents) , the WHT is deducted automatically at 15%.

 

In the minority cases ( like yours) , where the individual is a registered Thai tax filer and wants to reclaim the interest already deducted as part of an overall PIT filing, then the interest data is sent to TRD.

 

Otherwise, it is not.  Here's how one of the Thai banks describes it. 

 

https://www.krungsri.com/en/about-krungsri/about-us/overview/announce/exemption-tax-interest-savings-deposit

 

 

If I have this straight then, it is not correct to state as below, because it isn't what typically occurs: 

 

"banks reporting details of accounts  to TRD, from which they withheld the statutory 15% WHT on any interest earned. The latter already happens and has been happening for many many years."

 

If I have this wrong, happy to be corrected! 

"interest income data is only sent to the TRD for those who have already registered a TIN at their bank and are trying to reclaim the interest WHT".

 

That is not correct. I obtained my TIN around 2012 and received refunds most years thereafter, until rates dipped so low that I moved my funds into other things. The first time I gave my banks my TIN was two or three years ago, certainly no more. The reason I did that was to not have tax deducted from the first 20k of interest. So for at least a decade, my banks were providing TRD with my account and tax paid details I mentioned earlier.

 

It can't possibly be that banks only send interest/tax data to TRD, for those people who have registered their TIN at the banks. Many people will not have a TIN but they will have savings interest income that is taxed and will request a refund from TRD at year end. Many of those people appear not to have applied for a TIN but may have had one assigned by TRD, as a part of the refund process but they may not realise this. As I understand it. TRD has some sort of short form that allows that refund to be applied for and paid but many people don't understand that to be a tax return in the traditional sense.

 

EDIT TO ADD:

 

Given the scenario you've set out, it's difficult to imagine what banks actually do with the 15% WHT taken from people who haven't provided a TIN to the bank. Do they just keep it or do they write a check and say here's a lump sum, without any associated account or customer details? I very very seriously don't think so.

 

 

Edited October 15 by chiang mai

[Lorry]

3 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

interest income data is only sent to the TRD for those who have already registered a TIN at their bank and are trying to reclaim the interest WHT.

That's not correct. 

 

Formerly, you could get 20000 interest without WHT.

Once you had 20000 in your passbook, you just opened a new account and got 20000 without WHT.

Rinse and repeat.

People who did that had no TIN, paid no taxes,  did not claim back WHT.

 

Then, about 8(?) years ago,  this changed,  you couldn't do it anymore. 

One time 20000, that's it. This had always been the law, but before,  TRD didn't check whether the same person had multiple accounts. 

Now they do check. 

The account holder still had no TIN, didn't pay taxes and did not claim back WHT.

 

 

Edited October 15 by Lorry

[wmlc]

23 hours ago, chiang mai said:

 

Both of you are referring to CRS and money laundering rules under AMLO which has nothing to do with banks reporting details of accounts  to TRD, from which they withheld the statutory 15% WHT on any interest earned. The latter already happens and has been happening for many many years.

 

 

No I am not talking about money laundering laws. Read the law I posted. It’s about reporting only to the revenue dept. You have no idea what you are talking about. Banks are obligated to report to the revenue dept on bank accounts that fall under these two scenarios. What they will find is not relevant. People want to know possible enforcement options for the Thai government and this is an example of how TRD will know about your account activities and that’s it. Nothing more or nothing less. The people who want to know about this law as I have described are the ones who don’t have a tax ID and have never filed personal income tax in Thailand. They might want to know in what situations their Thai bank account activities could be sent to the revenue dept and this is the only time their account activities will be sent and that’s the end of the story. If you already have a tax ID, my post may not be of interest to you. 
 

For example, expat A is retired and has a non O visa based on retirement and an extension of stay. He never had a tax ID and never filed personal income tax in Thailand. He does not want to comply with the law, he does not want to  file, but wants to know how Thailand can enforce the law and get him to file. My post is an example of one way the revenue dept could know about his account activities. Therefore, being a part of enforcement by identifying  how much funds he transferred in that particular year. 

Edited October 16 by wmlc

[chiang mai]

11 minutes ago, wmlc said:

No I am not talking about money laundering laws. Read the law I posted. It’s about reporting only to the revenue dept. You have no idea what you are talking about. Banks are obligated to report to the revenue dept on bank accounts that fall under these two scenarios. What they will find is not relevant. People want to know possible enforcement options for the Thai government and this is an example of how TRD will know about your account activities and that’s it. Nothing more or nothing less. The people who want to know about this law as I have described are the ones who don’t have a tax ID and have never filed personal income tax in Thailand. They might want to know in what situations their Thai bank account activities could be sent to the revenue dept and this is the only time their account activities will be sent and that’s the end of the story. If you already have a tax ID, my post may not be of interest to you. 

Once again, do you not think that banks have always reported to the revenue, details of any accounts where interest was paid and tax withheld?

[wmlc]

21 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Once again, do you not think that banks have always reported to the revenue, details of any accounts where interest was paid and tax withheld?

This is apples and oranges. I am talking about full on reporting of all transactions  in and out of your account. The RD would not get those same details under the situation you are referring to and what they do get, they ignore. How do I know this? Let me tell you how. I have a client who earns a little interest on his money in a Thai bank, he works in one company that issues him a tax certificate for his salary. Then he also works two part time jobs and they also issue tax certificates. Guess what? He only files personal income tax on his main salary. He does not include the interest from his Thai bank, he does not include the other income from the part time jobs. For the last 15 years TRD has not done a thing. You read way too much into things and people like you create fear mongering about the tax laws in Thailand when actually until  enforcement is announced, nothing will be done. That’s if and when. Anyways, It’s too late now for 2024 too. So, guess what? ………

Edited October 16 by wmlc

[wmlc]

16 hours ago, chiang mai said:

"interest income data is only sent to the TRD for those who have already registered a TIN at their bank and are trying to reclaim the interest WHT".

 

That is not correct. I obtained my TIN around 2012 and received refunds most years thereafter, until rates dipped so low that I moved my funds into other things. The first time I gave my banks my TIN was two or three years ago, certainly no more. The reason I did that was to not have tax deducted from the first 20k of interest. So for at least a decade, my banks were providing TRD with my account and tax paid details I mentioned earlier.

 

It can't possibly be that banks only send interest/tax data to TRD, for those people who have registered their TIN at the banks. Many people will not have a TIN but they will have savings interest income that is taxed and will request a refund from TRD at year end. Many of those people appear not to have applied for a TIN but may have had one assigned by TRD, as a part of the refund process but they may not realise this. As I understand it. TRD has some sort of short form that allows that refund to be applied for and paid but many people don't understand that to be a tax return in the traditional sense.

 

EDIT TO ADD:

 

Given the scenario you've set out, it's difficult to imagine what banks actually do with the 15% WHT taken from people who haven't provided a TIN to the bank. Do they just keep it or do they write a check and say here's a lump sum, without any associated account or customer details? I very very seriously don't think so.

 

 

Please quote the law where it says tax IDs would automatically be issued to foreigners under the circumstances that you describe. Quote the law please. Then tell me how enforcement has been set out. The answers to both these questions will not be answered by you. Why? Because the TRD does not automatically assign tax IDs to foreigners and there are no enforcement guidelines as of yet. In fact there is no enforcement  for expats to file their personal income tax in Thailand unless they want to renew their work permit or do an extension of stay of a non B visa based on working. Now please stop scare mongering about the Thailand tax laws. 
 

One last point. Often companies who hire consultants need to deduct tax and remit to TRD. Why? Because TRD can’t collect it after the money has been paid out as there is no enforcement. Therefore, the law states the WHT is deducted at  the source of the person paying and they remit to TRD. In this situation no tax ID is issued for the foreigner. End of story. And by the way, most foreigners in this situation are working without a work permit  or they are overseas consultants. TRD does not care.     

Edited October 16 by wmlc

[chiang mai]

26 minutes ago, wmlc said:

This is apples and oranges. I am talking about full on reporting of all transactions  in and out of your account. The RD would not get those same details under the situation you are referring to and what they do get, they ignore. How do I know this? Let me tell you how. I have a client who earns a little interest on his money in a Thai bank, he works in one company that issues him a tax certificate for his salary. Then he also works two part time jobs and they also issue tax certificates. Guess what? He only files personal income tax on his main salary. He does not include the interest from his Thai bank, he does not include the other income from the part time jobs. For the last 15 years TRD has not done a thing. You read way too much into things and people like you create fear mongering about the tax laws in Thailand when actually until  enforcement is announced, nothing will be done. That’s if and when. Anyways, It’s too late now for 2024 too. So, guess what? ………

You may be talking about "full on reporting of all transactions" but the thread is about taxing foreigners on overseas income. In that context, only inbound remittances is of interest which is why I clarified that banks do indeed report details of all accounts and amounts where WHT has been paid. I'm sorry if you see that as fear mongering but it it remains a core constituent of the bank tio TRD information process.

 

Your anecdote regarding your client is interesting but is still an anecdote, which I choose to ignore, because it is an anecdote and not something that can be verified as typical across all tax payers.

 

I don't think these threads are so much about enforcement as they are about what the rules are presently, that has certainly the focus of all the other threads. If everyone understands the current rules and process, they can make their own decisions regarding how they wish tp proceed.

 

 

[chiang mai]

15 minutes ago, wmlc said:

Please quote the law where it says tax IDs would automatically be issued to foreigners under the circumstances that you describe. Quote the law please. Then tell me how enforcement has been set out. The answers to both these questions will not be answered by you. Why? Because the TRD does not automatically assign tax IDs to foreigners and there are no enforcement guidelines as of yet. In fact there is not enforcement period for expats to file their personal income tax in Thailand unless they want to renew their work permit or do an extension of stay of a non B visa based on working. Now please stop scare mongering about the Thailand tax laws. 

I did not write that TIN's WERE automatically assigned, I speculated and wrote, "Many of those people appear not to have applied for a TIN but may have had one assigned by TRD,

 

Once again, these things are not about enforcement, only people wishing to evade tax have an interest in that aspect.

[wmlc]

4 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

I did not write that TIN's WERE automatically assigned, I speculated and wrote, "Many of those people appear not to have applied for a TIN but may have had one assigned by TRD,

 

Once again, these things are not about enforcement, only people wishing to evade tax have an interest in that aspect.

Too much speculation on your part here and that’s what people don’t need. That is fear mongering in my books. If you want to debate, quote clear  hard facts backed up with Thai law. Thats what I did and you chose to debate and argue and so on. What’s the point. Read the law. That’s it. Law and evidence. I could care less if you believe my evidence or not. I have been here for 15 years so I don’t need to prove anything to you. That was just one example. I have a thousand more. Why would I need to show you? Take it or leave it. Stop scare mongering dude. TRD does not care and if they did, it is sure as hell no where near as much as you and some other expats care. Some expats are so obsessed with this that it’s all they talk about.

Edited October 16 by wmlc

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, wmlc said:

Too much speciation on your part here and that’s what people don’t need. That is fear mongering in my books. If you want to debate, quote clear  hard facts backed up with Thai law. 

If members are not allowed to speculate or offer their opinions, this forum goes out of business and there is no forum. Members need to put on their big boy pants and recognise  the difference between fact and opinion, a discussion already held once today in detail. There was a notice pinned at the top of these threads reminding everyone that anything contained in them is opinion. If people want nothing but fact on this subject they should visit Big 4 offices and also buy a crystal ball!.

[wmlc]

13 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

I did not write that TIN's WERE automatically assigned, I speculated and wrote, "Many of those people appear not to have applied for a TIN but may have had one assigned by TRD,

 

Once again, these things are not about enforcement, only people wishing to evade tax have an interest in that aspect.

How about avoiding filing. Most won’t have to pay anything because of the DTA. You are reaching now. Enough of this.  You should not be saying people only care to avoid tax. You don’t know. I’m out now. Stop accusing other of wanting to avoid tax when you don’t know……… 

Edited October 16 by wmlc

[chiang mai]

3 minutes ago, wmlc said:

How about avoiding filing. Most won’t have to pay anything because of the DTA. You are reaching now. Enough of this.  You should not be saying proper only care to avoid tax. You don’t know. I’m out now. 

There is no official confirmation that the existence of a DTA means remittances escape assessability, none whatsoever.