Its Happening - Law to Tax Overseas Income Now in Progress

[Rolo89]

3 minutes ago, ukrules said:

 

We're not talking about UK banks here, your bank accounts would generally be in other countries.

Lots of people living in EU countries had their bank accounts closed after brexit. They didn't want customers outside of the UK for the extra effort. They didn't care at all if you had a tax ID.

 

Banks across the world don't act the same as UK banks. And UK banks don't all act the same either.

 

Worst case scenario is they want to close your account so you get your money moved to another one. Always a good idea to have a couple of different bank accounts in different countries if you travel.

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, ukrules said:

 

From the UK, open an account in Thailand, open an account in Cambodia, perhaps more than one.

Get paid from say the US into your Thai account and stay less than 180 days.

Job done.

I have a Thai bank account and also a UK account, that's not the issue. I am declared tax resident in Thailand, have a Thai TIN and my UK bank knows this. BUT, if I didn't have the Thai TIN, I couldn't have my UK bank account.

[ukrules]

3 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

I have a Thai bank account and also a UK account, that's not the issue. I am declared tax resident in Thailand, have a Thai TIN and my UK bank knows this. BUT, if I didn't have the Thai TIN, I couldn't have my UK bank account.

 

The whole point is to make your money outside the UK and any other country you frequent or this won't really work.

 

I literally strolled into ABA in Phnom Penh and opened an account while having a 1 year business visa, they didn't even ask for my address here in Phnom Penh never mind a tax id.

 

Shopping around for a different bank is worthwhile and more than one of them, there's loads of banks out there - outside of the UK.

The origin / source country of the income / gain is very important

[Rolo89]

1 minute ago, chiang mai said:

I am declared tax resident in Thailand, have a Thai TIN and my UK bank knows this. BUT, if I didn't have the Thai TIN, I couldn't have my UK bank account.

It's been explained to you before, but this is due to the policies of one bank.

 

Not every bank across the world has the same policies. 

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, Rolo89 said:

It's been explained to you before, but this is due to the policies of one bank.

 

Not every bank across the world has the same policies. 

OK understood, but banks in any country are agents of the country's Central Bank and carry out central bank policy, as well as administration of tax policy. I find it very hard to imagine that banks in the UK each have different approaches to the residency and tax issue hence it's not just HSBC, it's the country's Revenue Dept.

[chiang mai]

6 minutes ago, ukrules said:

 

The whole point is to make your money outside the UK and any other country you frequent or this won't really work.

 

I literally strolled into ABA in Phnom Penh and opened an account while having a 1 year business visa, they didn't even ask for my address here in Phnom Penh never mind a tax id.

 

Shopping around for a different bank is worthwhile and more than one of them, there's loads of banks out there - outside of the UK.

The origin / source country of the income / gain is very important

Yes I accept those points are true. But you also have to want and be prepared to have your bank account in places such as Cambodia, you'll excuse me for saying that's not a choice I would make willingly.

[ukrules]

1 minute ago, chiang mai said:

OK understood, but banks in any country are agents of the country's Central Bank and carry out central bank policy, as well as administration of tax policy. I find it very hard to imagine that banks in the UK each have different approaches to the residency and tax issue hence it's not just HSBC, it's the country's Revenue Dept.

 

Is there any specific reason why you need or want to use a UK based bank which has on of the most well known strict policies in the world due to their past misdeeds and promised to the US 'not to do it again'.

 

 

[chiang mai]

8 minutes ago, Rolo89 said:

It's been explained to you before, but this is due to the policies of one bank.

 

Not every bank across the world has the same policies. 

Again, where does your Jersey bank think you are tax resident, please?

[MartinBangkok]

54 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

You can't be tax resident nowhere, you have to be tax resident somewhere, unless you don't have any income at all. You can live in a country for less than 180 days and then move on, or you can live in a low tax country. But at some point you will need to be paid income and invoke a tax treaty, which means having a country of tax residency.

You are completely wrong.

[chiang mai]

Just now, ukrules said:

 

Is there any specific reason why you need or want to use a UK based bank which has on of the most well known strict policies in the world due to their past misdeeds and promised to the US 'not to do it again'.

 

 

Not really, it's just convenient for me

[ukrules]

5 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Yes I accept those points are true. But you also have to want and be prepared to have your bank account in places such as Cambodia, you'll excuse me for saying that's not a choice I would make willingly.

 

I use it for day to day spending while here in Cambodia but it has a purpose.

Most of my money sits in trading accounts on US exchanges which aren't bank accounts and don't appear give a crap about tax id once you're a foreign national, then I simply send to Thailand right now whilst non resident.

The UK doesn't come into it - but the source does and if that source is in the UK then you're paying anyway with no escape.

 

That source could of course be pensions which many have or trading accounts for shares or crypto, etc - just keep it out of the UK with UK nationality.

[MartinBangkok]

43 minutes ago, Rolo89 said:

You don't have to be a tax resident of somewhere.

 

It mainly causes issues with banking so it's a good idea to get tax residency somewhere. I get paid dividends from my UAE company into my Jersey personal bank account. Can't see why I'd need to get tax residency, neither of those countries cared about my thai tax status.

It causes no issues with banking.

[chiang mai]

5 minutes ago, ukrules said:

 

I use it for day to day spending while here in Cambodia but it has a purpose.

Most of my money sits in trading accounts on exchanges which aren't bank accounts, then I simply send to Thailand right now whilst non resident.

The UK doesn't come into it - but the source does and if that source is in the UK then you're paying anyway

OK, understood, the trading accounts is a sensible option.

 

If a person wants to bank in countries like Cambodia then they probably can escape tax residency for a while yet. But if you want to bank in countries where banking is better regulated and the home currency is safer, it's going to be extremely difficult.

[ukrules]

3 minutes ago, MartinBangkok said:

It causes no issues with banking.

Well you might have some issues with some banks, like HSBC, Chase, etc - never tried them as I hear bad things.

Google 'offshorecoprtalk' and see what shows up. They talk about this kind of thing all day long

 

[ukrules]

If they ever bring in global taxation then offshore incorporation is the next step on our side of the equation.

[chiang mai]

5 minutes ago, MartinBangkok said:

It causes no issues with banking.

It can and it does in practise.

[Gknrd]

Doesn't take long after the banks fleece ya for the 800K, the 90 day reports, government taxing you retirement income, yearly renewals,  to make the LOS's quite bit less attractive for your retirement home.  I bet the number of guys that actually end up staying is getting pretty slim.

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, Rolo89 said:

You don't have to be a tax resident of somewhere.

 

It mainly causes issues with banking so it's a good idea to get tax residency somewhere. I get paid dividends from my UAE company into my Jersey personal bank account. Can't see why I'd need to get tax residency, neither of those countries cared about my thai tax status.

Sorry but I need to come back to this again, just to set things straight.

 

You have a bank account in Jersey which is a CRS member but you live and work in Japan and Thailand and you pay taxes in Thailand.

 

"The CRS requires financial institutions to identify the tax residency of all customers and report information on customers who are tax resident outside of the country where they hold their accounts".

 

It seems to me that you must be tax resident in Jersey, (unless you're flying under the radar) and probably are also the same in Thailand, or did I miss something here? I'm not trying to be argumentative or deliberately dense but I think it's important that members understand the reality of this situation so it will help everyone if you can clarify.

[Rolo89]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

It seems to me that you must be tax resident in Jersey, (unless you're flying under the radar) and probably are also the same in Thailand

I'm not even sure what you're saying now. I must be a tax resident in Jersey and Thailand?

 

As I've previously said I pay tax in Thailand, that's the place I'm a tax resident at the moment. But I might become a resident of nowhere if this is brought in. 

[Yumthai]

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

If a person wants to bank in countries like Cambodia then they probably can escape tax residency for a while yet. But if you want to bank in countries where banking is better regulated and the home currency is safer, it's going to be extremely difficult.

You can open an international non-resident multi-currency bank account in "better" countries like Singapore, HK, UAE, Jersey/IOM,... if you fulfill their financial requirements (premium/priority/private account generally starting at low 6 figures $ AUM). These banks (DBS, OCBC, UOB, Standard Chartered, Citibank, HSBC,...) will understand that, as a Thai resident, you can't provide a Thai TIN if you have no taxable income in Thailand (but it's not so difficult to get one either then stay < 180 days a year in Thailand).

[chiang mai]

31 minutes ago, Rolo89 said:

I'm not even sure what you're saying now. I must be a tax resident in Jersey and Thailand?

 

As I've previously said I pay tax in Thailand, that's the place I'm a tax resident at the moment. But I might become a resident of nowhere if this is brought in. 

You have a bank account in Jersey and Jersey is a member of CRS. Today you are tax resident in Thailand hence there is a potential exchange of financial data between the two countries. 

 

If you leave Thailand and go somewhere else to stay/live, Jersey will want to know where that it is, unless of course you fly under the radar and disguise that fact. If you move to another country and chose to pay tax there, all will be well and good because you can pay tax there, just as you did in Thailand. But if you move away from Thailand and claim not to be tax resident anywhere, your bank in Jersey will almost certainly have something to say because they believe that everyone has to be tax resident somewhere, otherwise you probably can't bank with them. 

 

 

[BritManToo]

14 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

You have a bank account in Jersey and Jersey is a member of CRS. Today you are tax resident in Thailand hence there is a potential exchange of financial data between the two countries. 

 

If you leave Thailand and go somewhere else to stay/live, Jersey will want to know where that it is, unless of course you fly under the radar and disguise that fact. If you move to another country and chose to pay tax there, all will be well and good because you can pay tax there, just as you did in Thailand. But if you move away from Thailand and claim not to be tax resident anywhere, your bank in Jersey will almost certainly have something to say because they believe that everyone has to be tax resident somewhere, otherwise you probably can't bank with them. 

CRS ....... how do they know who you are?

UK has no national ID number, bank doesn't have your passport number or NI number.

So how do they connect Joe Bloggs in Jersey with Joe Bloggs living in Bangkok?

(there are around 5,000 UK citizens named Joe Bloggs) 

[Yumthai]

10 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

If you leave Thailand and go somewhere else to stay/live, Jersey will want to know where that it is, unless of course you fly under the radar and disguise that fact. If you move to another country and chose to pay tax there, all will be well and good because you can pay tax there, just as you did in Thailand. But if you move away from Thailand and claim not to be tax resident anywhere, your bank in Jersey will almost certainly have something to say because they believe that everyone has to be tax resident somewhere, otherwise you probably can't bank with them. 

You can be resident in Thailand keeping your home/address here, stay < 180 days/year being then non-resident for tax purposes, and travel around not triggering any other tax residence the other part of the year.

[chiang mai]

5 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

CRS ....... how do they know who you are?

UK has no national ID number, bank doesn't have your passport number or NI number.

So how do they connect Joe Bloggs in Jersey with Joe Bloggs living in Bangkok?

(there are around 5,000 UK citizens named Joe Bloggs) 

CRS identification is not the issue, having tax residency is the issue. The issue is also NOT about how they will know anything, the issue is about what are the rules.

 

But as an aside, UK has NI number which carries across most things equivalent to an ID number, in the UK at least.

[BritManToo]

5 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

CRS identification is not the issue, having tax residency is the issue. The issue is also NOT about how they will know anything, the issue is about what are the rules.

 

But as an aside, UK has NI number which carries across most things equivalent to an ID number, in the UK at least.

But as I previously posted UK banks don't require a NI number when opening an account (I always used my birth certificate and phone bill). So if they don't know who you are, they can't share any information about you.

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, Yumthai said:

You can be resident in Thailand keeping your home/address here, stay < 180 days/year being then non-resident for tax purposes, and travel around not triggering any other tax residence the other part of the year.

So not tax resident in Thailand, are tourists allowed to open or maintain bank accounts, they cannot in many countries in the West!

[Rolo89]

14 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

But if you move away from Thailand and claim not to be tax resident anywhere, your bank in Jersey will almost certainly have something to say because they believe that everyone has to be tax resident somewhere, otherwise you probably can't bank with them. 

Well yeah if the current Jersey bank account doesn't accept people who are a tax resident of nowhere then I'd switch to another account (I already have a few created in backup). Theres a whole world of banking and finance options outside of the couple of names on British high streets.

[chiang mai]

Just now, BritManToo said:

But as I previously posted bank doesn't require NI number when opening an account.

Once again, the issue is tax residency, not whether/how/can people be identified.

 

Again very much  as an aside, the UK sees the link between the NI number and passport number and overseas banks want passport numbers. Let's not keep going down this road, it's off topic and none of us fully understand how that cross border identification process works or will work. 

[Yumthai]

1 minute ago, chiang mai said:

So not tax resident in Thailand, are tourists allowed to open or maintain bank accounts, they cannot in many countries in the West!

As I mentioned you can open an account in Singapore/HK as a Thai resident with/without providing a Thai TIN.

[chiang mai]

3 minutes ago, Rolo89 said:

Well yeah if the current Jersey bank account doesn't accept people who are a tax resident of nowhere then I'd switch to another account (I already have a few created in backup). Theres a whole world of banking and finance options outside of the couple of names on British high streets.

OK, fair enough. The point here is that not being tax resident somewhere makes it so much harder to do business and conduct your financial affairs with mainstream businesses. Over time, that will become stricter as more countries join CRS.