Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[Captain Flack]

This is getting ridiculous, 30 minutes after I post a reminder not to discuss other posters, but to discuss the topic, another poster again chooses to ignore the forum rules and continue in the same vain.
 

Warnings will be issued to anyone who wishes to continue to break forum rules.

 

I am not censoring debate, but removing posts that are not discussing the topic. If you have a different opinion challenge it, not discuss others.

[Yumthai]

29 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

I'm perfectly happy with others expressing their opinions, collaboration and exchange is what this is all about. BUT what it's not all about is being pursued seven days a week by a tag team on shifts, all trying to attack from any angle they can see an opening and NOT ONE OF THEM providing any useful constructive material or assistance by way of input. How many months has this been going on now, just ask yourself that.

I disagree. The issue is that you certainly provide some good factual content but sometimes mixed with your opinions presented as facts/undeniable truth, and it's difficult for the readers to sort things out. It just appears that several other posters don't share some of your opinions and feel the need to challenge your assertions. There's no cabal.

[chiang mai]

11 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

I disagree. The issue is that you certainly provide some good factual content but sometimes mixed with your opinions presented as facts/undeniable truth, and it's difficult for the readers to sort things out. It just appears that several other posters don't share some of your opinions and feel the need to challenge your assertions. There's no cabal.

There was, for the longest time, a notice at the top of the thread that clearly stated that the thread contained only individual opinions.  That should hardly be necessary and should go without saying because the forum rules clearly say that factual statements in threads such as this, must be supported by a supportive link. Rule 5 says:

 

"In factual areas such as news forums and current affairs topics member content that is claimed or portrayed as a fact should be supported by a link to a relevant reputable source".

 

https://aseannow.com/forum_rules/

 

That means that everything that is written in the thread is opinion, unless there is a supportive link, does that really come as any surprise to anyone!

 

So what's the beef? If people don't like somebody's opinion, disagree with it, isn't that what people are supposed to do here! And if people can't separate the fact from the opinion, based on the links provided, perhaps they are over their heads trying to participate here and shouldn't.

 

If somebody wants to challenge statements that I portray as fact, read the link provided.  If there's no link, it must be opinion, if you don't like it or have a different one, say so (if you want) or else ignore it. I'm going to make some assumptions from time to time that the simple obvious things in life are accepted as fact, without having to provide links but if somebody feels the need to see one (and I know some of you will do this relentlessly) feel free to ask for one.

 

This is pretty basic modus operandi. don't you think!!!

 

[JimGant]

6 hours ago, StraightTalk said:

It's clear that these individuals are targeting you (just as they did with Mike) and are intentionally disrupting the forum, with no real effort being made to address it

Just who are you? As one of the disruptors, I pride myself in doing a lot of research, where such research is plausible, to my contributions to this forum. That my discoveries diverge from Chiang Mai,'s -- or my personal grasp of logic diverge -- I'm sorry that this offends Chiang Mai. He's a pretty prickly customer -- as was Mike Lister before him. As such, it makes pulling their chains too tempting. So, sorry if such disrupts your concentration on the subject.

 

But back to you.... You, in one of your posts, implied I'm often wrong, when Chiang Mai was right. I asked for amplification, but didn't get any. I'd still like to get that, but if not, I'd just be curious as to your bonafides -- education, job, tax and govt work, etc. Just want to get a feel for where you're coming from. And if you're qualified to referee a discussion on taxes. Thank you for, hopefully, taking the time to present yourself.

 

But, if you don't, I'll understand.

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

 NOT ONE OF THEM providing any useful constructive material or assistance by way of input.

Not constructive because it differed from your input -- or because they didn't provide an alternative input? You're smokin' something serious if you say the latter.

[ukrules]

10 hours ago, Bluetongue said:

I know some have been stopped because they’re flagged for audit but they have been lodging returns.

 

I read somewhere that an audit can take a few years to be completed, what happened in this instance?

Was the person allowed to travel or forced to remain in Thailand and therefore forced to become a tax resident?

Edited October 15 by ukrules

[stat]

17 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Indeed, truly shocking is it not! 

 

You'll all need to find a new lightening rod to keep you entertained.

 

 

to stay true to the metaphor a lightening rod is specificaly designed for one job, not sure why you chose that metaphor.

 

I have certainly been attacked worse by others and by you.

 

BTW: Thanks for the link to the straights article!

 

Edited October 15 by stat

[Mason45]

Has anyone renewed their visa through and agent lately and have been asked for your financial details?

[KhunHeineken]

11 hours ago, Bluetongue said:

Well I’ve always said that if the RD links passport to exit stamp, then I  would have to do something

Not "if" just "when." 

 

11 hours ago, Bluetongue said:

Staying reasonably aware of such developments means that is unlikely that I would be caught out at airport.

So why so dismissive in a previous post? 

 

11 hours ago, Bluetongue said:

Has anyone ever been stopped because they don’t have tax ID?

Not to my knowledge, but it's not 2025 yet, is it? 

 

In the same way you are ushered to the overstay desk when they know you have overstayed your tourist visa, it's entirely possible you will be ushered to a TRD desk in the future, after staying more than 180 days inside Thailand.  This is just a hypothetical, but the infrastructure for immigration counting the days foreigners are in Thailand is already in place at the boarders, and no, the immigration officer doesn't look at a calendar and count every day, for every foreigner, a computer does it.  

 

In the same way they want their 500 baht a day for a tourist overstay, they simply might want 500 baht at a boarder from a tax resident for a clearance certificate, should they not have one.  Who knows?  

 

I rule nothing out when it comes to Thailand, the Thai government, foreigners, and money. 

 

11 hours ago, Bluetongue said:

As far as getting a document from the TRD about my pension, I think you’re dreaming. What, I should just waltz in there and demand it?

No need for you to "demand" it from them, because they are most likely going to "demand" it from you. See the above.  

[Felton Jarvis]

On 5/24/2024 at 9:41 PM, john donson said:

simply do nothing till one day immigration tells you, on top of your 30 other copies, you now need a tax return...  guess that will be time to find greener pastures

That is what I plan to do.  The only problem is that a recent video from a Thai legal firm has indicated that unless one has a tax ID, they could be subject to criminal prosecution. Obviously, most of us would like to avoid that scenario.

[Talon]

2 hours ago, Mason45 said:

Has anyone renewed their visa through and agent lately and have been asked for your financial details?

 

I've predicted that will be the next shoe to drop.  Bring your TRD financial documents with you to renew your visa.

[Guavaman]

Posters on this thread and its' predecessor have stated that there is no mention of DTAs in the Thai Tax Code.

 

Here is a TRD reference to the Royal Decree No. 18 on DTAs from 1962:

 

ROYAL DECREE

Issued under the Revenue Code Regarding Revenue Tax Exemption (No. 18), B.E. 2505 (1962)

 

Section 3 Taxes and duties under the Revenue Code shall be exempted for persons in accordance with the agreements on avoidance of double taxation which the government of Thailand has entered into or shall enter into with the governments of foreign countries.

 

Remarks :- The reason for the promulgation of this Royal Decree is that the government of Thailand has executed the agreements with the governments of foreign countries for the avoidance of double taxation for persons who are residents of one country but earn incomes or have properties in another country. Without such agreements, those persons may be obliged to pay taxes to both countries at the full rates which causes onerous burden to them. Hence, it is deemed expedient to alleviate burden of those persons in order to promote international investment and economic relations. (Government Gazette, Volume 78, Part 69, dated 31st July B.E. 2505 (1962))

 

Source:  https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/kormor/eng/RD_18.pdf

[chiang mai]

5 hours ago, Mason45 said:

Has anyone renewed their visa through and agent lately and have been asked for your financial details?

No, there have been no such reports.

[daejung]

On 5/19/2024 at 6:55 PM, Lorry said:

But what is the earliest you can file?

Can you really file in July if you leave the country for the rest of the year?

 

Practical importance:

Retirees already have one fix date (ok, it's not one day, it's about a month) when they HAVE TO be in Thailand: the yearly extension.

If you stay here longer,  sooner or later comes a year where this is very inconvenient.

Is there now a second period  - Jan 1st to March 31st - where you HAVE TO be here at some time to file your taxes? IIRC foreigners cannot file online, I certainly won't try to file taxes online when I am not in Thailand. 

(there are 2 good reasons for me not to be here between Jan 1st and March 31st: air quality and tourists)

 

DTA are international treaties. DTA prevail on internal rules

You cannot change anything unless you re-negotiate DTA

I am French and worked in taxation

[Talon]

The interesting thing for me being from the US is that there is nothing on the current form to show any deduction if all funds are derived from Social Security and/or another US pension.

 

Yes, I know we're still waiting for guidance . . . 

 

- Will we just put zero on the form if our funds are derived from Social Security and other pensions? (No deduction line on the current form.)

- Will we file, have to pay any tax due and then have to file for a tax rebate?

- What documentation will be required to show that all funds are from pensions? (I would guess the 1099s, but you never know.)

- If all of the funds brought into Thailand are via ATM from a foreign bank account and never deposited into a Thai bank, what documentation will be required? 

 

So many questions that may continue to go unanswered. Watching and waiting.

 

[chiang mai]

14 minutes ago, Talon said:

The interesting thing for me being from the US is that there is nothing on the current form to show any deduction if all funds are derived from Social Security and/or another US pension.

 

Yes, I know we're still waiting for guidance . . . 

 

- Will we just put zero on the form if our funds are derived from Social Security and other pensions? (No deduction line on the current form.)

- Will we file, have to pay any tax due and then have to file for a tax rebate?

- What documentation will be required to show that all funds are from pensions? (I would guess the 1099s, but you never know.)

- If all of the funds brought into Thailand are via ATM from a foreign bank account and never deposited into a Thai bank, what documentation will be required? 

 

So many questions that may continue to go unanswered. Watching and waiting.

 

Why would or should the Thai tax return make special mention of US SSc payments as a line items when there are over 100 other countries in the world plus Thailand has DTA's with over 60 of them?

 

US SSc remittances are exempt under the terms of the DTA . There is nowhere to show exempt income on the current form but there might be on the new forms, which is why we have to be patient and wait for the new forms to be released.

[chiang mai]

18 minutes ago, Talon said:

The interesting thing for me being from the US is that there is nothing on the current form to show any deduction if all funds are derived from Social Security and/or another US pension.

 

Yes, I know we're still waiting for guidance . . . 

 

- Will we just put zero on the form if our funds are derived from Social Security and other pensions? (No deduction line on the current form.)

- Will we file, have to pay any tax due and then have to file for a tax rebate?

- What documentation will be required to show that all funds are from pensions? (I would guess the 1099s, but you never know.)

- If all of the funds brought into Thailand are via ATM from a foreign bank account and never deposited into a Thai bank, what documentation will be required? 

 

So many questions that may continue to go unanswered. Watching and waiting.

 

Using Thai ATM's to withdraw funds in Thailand, from an overseas bank account, is still regarded as remitting funds to Thailand, as is carrying cash on a plane. The fact those funds are never deposited into a banks account doesn't change the fact they were remitted to Thailand.

[TheAppletons]

10 hours ago, Mason45 said:

Has anyone renewed their visa through and agent lately and have been asked for your financial details?

 

  Extended my permission to stay last week using an agent.  

 

  As usual, I had to provide the financial details that proved I qualify for the extension (in my case, twelve consecutive monthly deposits of 65K THB or more, i.e., "the income method").  No other financial details requested/required.

[Talon]

12 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

There is nowhere to show exempt income on the current form but there might be on the new forms

 

The form doesn't have to show any special US considerations. I didn't say that.

 

Your last sentence quoted above was that which I was referring. There's nowhere to show exempt income.

[Talon]

11 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Using Thai ATM's to withdraw funds in Thailand, from an overseas bank account, is still regarded as remitting funds to Thailand, as is carrying cash on a plane. The fact those funds are never deposited into a banks account doesn't change the fact they were remitted to Thailand.

 

I never said that the funds were any different. LOL  

 

Quote

If all of the funds brought into Thailand are via ATM from a foreign bank account and never deposited into a Thai bank, what documentation will be required? 

 

I asked what documentation would be required. 😎

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, Talon said:

 

The form doesn't have to show any special US considerations. I didn't say that.

 

Your last sentence quoted above was that which I was referring. There's nowhere to show exempt income.

OK, I misunderstood because you referred specifically to US SSc and US pensions. Again, there's nowhere to show exempt income, yet, there may be in the future. Your other pensions may or may not be exempt, depending on their nature and the terms of your DTA.

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, Talon said:

 

I never said that the funds were any different. LOL  

 

 

I asked what documentation would be required. 😎

The process is this:

 

You decide whether you must file a tax return and declare your assessable income, if you have none, you don't need to file.

 

If you do file, you must decide what to declare and that includes your ATM withdrawals.

 

If your return is accepted, no documentation is required. If your return is queried, you will need to prove what you have said, that includes proving the sources of ALL funds remittances. Supporting documentation is not required at the point where the return is filed.

 

What documentation might be required/useful? Statements are a good place to start.

 

[EVENKEEL]

20 hours ago, chiang mai said:

If you say so. It just seems hard to imagine that after one year of constant media coverage, almost everyone in the country knows about this tax change but the Head Office of the TRD doesn't  But hey, I really don't care so don't get excited. 

This constant media coverage.....where exactly? I've yet to have anyone say "did you see the news? Foreigners have to start filing taxes"  Maybe you're referring to the foreigner tax experts. The ones hoping to make a buck.

[chiang mai]

14 hours ago, chiang mai said:

There was, for the longest time, a notice at the top of the thread that clearly stated that the thread contained only individual opinions.  That should hardly be necessary and should go without saying because the forum rules clearly say that factual statements in threads such as this, must be supported by a supportive link. Rule 5 says:

 

"In factual areas such as news forums and current affairs topics member content that is claimed or portrayed as a fact should be supported by a link to a relevant reputable source".

 

https://aseannow.com/forum_rules/

 

That means that everything that is written in the thread is opinion, unless there is a supportive link, does that really come as any surprise to anyone!

 

So what's the beef? If people don't like somebody's opinion, disagree with it, isn't that what people are supposed to do here! And if people can't separate the fact from the opinion, based on the links provided, perhaps they are over their heads trying to participate here and shouldn't.

 

If somebody wants to challenge statements that I portray as fact, read the link provided.  If there's no link, it must be opinion, if you don't like it or have a different one, say so (if you want) or else ignore it. I'm going to make some assumptions from time to time that the simple obvious things in life are accepted as fact, without having to provide links but if somebody feels the need to see one (and I know some of you will do this relentlessly) feel free to ask for one.

 

This is pretty basic modus operandi. don't you think!!!

 

I'm reposting the following because a poster said they could not differentiate between fact and option in some of the things I write but there wasn't a single acknowledgement. That usually means that those in doubt, read it and had an, "ah yes, that's right", moment and went elsewhere to try and forget! 

 

I just want to make sure that we're all on the same page and that the above applies to everyone, not just to me.

 

 

 

There was, for the longest time, a notice at the top of the thread that clearly stated that the thread contained only individual opinions.  That should hardly be necessary and should go without saying because the forum rules clearly say that factual statements in threads such as this, must be supported by a supportive link. Rule 5 says:

 

"In factual areas such as news forums and current affairs topics member content that is claimed or portrayed as a fact should be supported by a link to a relevant reputable source".

 

https://aseannow.com/forum_rules/

 

That means that everything that is written in the thread is opinion, unless there is a supportive link, does that really come as any surprise to anyone!

 

So what's the beef? If people don't like somebody's opinion, disagree with it, isn't that what people are supposed to do here! And if people can't separate the fact from the opinion, based on the links provided, perhaps they are over their heads trying to participate here and shouldn't.

 

If somebody wants to challenge statements that I portray as fact, read the link provided.  If there's no link, it must be opinion, if you don't like it or have a different one, say so (if you want) or else ignore it. I'm going to make some assumptions from time to time that the simple obvious things in life are accepted as fact, without having to provide links but if somebody feels the need to see one (and I know some of you will do this relentlessly) feel free to ask for one.

 

This is pretty basic modus operandi. don't you think!!!

 

[24Catty]

6 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

I've yet to have anyone say "did you see the news? Foreigners have to start filing taxes" 

I have been told exactly the words,  by a Thai friend

[chiang mai]

6 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

This constant media coverage.....where exactly? I've yet to have anyone say "did you see the news? Foreigners have to start filing taxes"  Maybe you're referring to the foreigner tax experts. The ones hoping to make a buck.

Here's a link to a google search on the subject showing pages of news articles in only the Bangkok Post....I think you get my drift! 

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=bangkok+post+tax+news+personal+income&sca_esv=d161937f2a63904d&ei=dAQPZ-nFBrTvseMPiqHKkQc&ved=0ahUKEwjpz9KtzpGJAxW0d2wGHYqQMnIQ4dUDCA8&uact=5&oq=bangkok+post+tax+news+personal+income&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiJWJhbmdrb2sgcG9zdCB0YXggbmV3cyBwZXJzb25hbCBpbmNvbWUyBRAhGKABMgUQIRigAUiOKFC8B1jtHnABeACQAQCYAZoBoAHVDaoBBDMuMTO4AQPIAQD4AQGYAhGgAvEOwgIIEAAYgAQYsAPCAg4QABiABBiwAxiGAxiKBcICCxAAGIAEGLADGKIEwgIFECEYnwXCAgQQIRgVwgIHECEYoAEYCpgDAIgGAZAGCpIHBDIuMTWgB6pb&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

[JimGant]

4 hours ago, daejung said:

DTA are international treaties. DTA prevail on internal rules

You cannot change anything unless you re-negotiate DTA

I am French and worked in taxation

Yeah, you'd be right for France; but not for all countries:

Quote

In most countries, treaties (including tax treaties) have a status superior to that of ordinary domestic laws (see, e.g. France, Germany, the Netherlands). However, in some countries (primarily the US, but also to some extent the UK and Australia) treaties can be changed unilaterally by subsequent domestic legislation.

 

Quote

How serious of a problem are treaty overrides? In practice, most countries, including the US (which was clearly the target of an OECD Report), rarely override treaties, and when they do, in most cases the override can be justified as consistent with the underlying purposes of the relevant treaty. Moreover, treaty overrides can sometimes be an important tool in combating tax treaty abuse. Thus, I believe that if used correctly, treaty overrides can be a helpful feature of the international tax regime, albeit one that should be used sparingly and with caution.

https://repository.law.umich.edu/book_chapters/330/

 

[EVENKEEL]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

Here's a link to a google search on the subject showing pages of news articles in only the Bangkok Post....I think you get my drift! 

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=bangkok+post+tax+news+personal+income&sca_esv=d161937f2a63904d&ei=dAQPZ-nFBrTvseMPiqHKkQc&ved=0ahUKEwjpz9KtzpGJAxW0d2wGHYqQMnIQ4dUDCA8&uact=5&oq=bangkok+post+tax+news+personal+income&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiJWJhbmdrb2sgcG9zdCB0YXggbmV3cyBwZXJzb25hbCBpbmNvbWUyBRAhGKABMgUQIRigAUiOKFC8B1jtHnABeACQAQCYAZoBoAHVDaoBBDMuMTO4AQPIAQD4AQGYAhGgAvEOwgIIEAAYgAQYsAPCAg4QABiABBiwAxiGAxiKBcICCxAAGIAEGLADGKIEwgIFECEYnwXCAgQQIRgVwgIHECEYoAEYCpgDAIgGAZAGCpIHBDIuMTWgB6pb&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

You show that there is talk of it, talk of proposals. 

 

I'm sure there is a minority of (big money) tax refugees residing in Thailand who don't pay taxes in their home country. As well as those Thais working overseas and bringing money home to Thailand. 

 

For the rest of us poor schmucks residing in Thailand, do you really think Thailand has the resources to track us?  Immigration has enough trouble making sense of my bank records for my extension. How on earth would they figure out my tax return from home country? I would think before the tax man tracks down foreigners they will start with the millions of Thais who don't file.

Edited October 16 by EVENKEEL

[Lopburikid]

21 hours ago, chiang mai said:

If you say so. It just seems hard to imagine that after one year of constant media coverage, almost everyone in the country knows about this tax change but the Head Office of the TRD doesn't  But hey, I really don't care so don't get excited. 

Have you been to get your tax pin yet? As you need it before you can even thing about filing a tax return.. Yes, WE know about it because it is all over Thaivisa, but 90% of Thais are ignorant to the fact just like they are about our requirements for a visa. If you don't care, then don't call people liars when you know nothing about them.

[chiang mai]

34 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

You show that there is talk of it, talk of proposals. 

 

I'm sure there is a minority of (big money) tax refugees residing in Thailand who don't pay taxes in their home country. As well as those Thais working overseas and bringing money home to Thailand. 

 

For the rest of us poor schmucks residing in Thailand, do you really think Thailand has the resources to track us?  Immigration has enough trouble making sense of my bank records for my extension. How on earth would they figure out my tax return from home country? I would think before the tax man tracks down foreigners they will start with the millions of Thais who don't file.

The issue is NOT about if or how the TRD will track us, that is only relevant for those people who consciously decide to evade tax and detection.

 

For everyone else, the issue is about seeking clarity of the TRD rules, which is 99.9% of what these threads are all about. And since there are parts of all of that we cannot decide or agree upon, the solution is to wait until the end of the year when the new forms and instructions are released.

 

The millions of Thai's who don't pay taxes needs to be understood in context of a larger picture. Who is to say the TRD will not do both things at once, especially since the new rule changes are not aimed at the small percentage of foreigners in Thailand but at the majority who are Thai's?

 

It's also important to remember that the way the tax rules are written at present, native Thais on low incomes can legally not file returns or pay tax so I wouldn't let the headline statistics confuse the picture. Another aspect of that is that Self Employed Thai's can easily turnover a million baht per year, earn a net 600k or more per year and not have to pay tax.

Edited October 16 by chiang mai