Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[oldcpu]

17 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

The bigger problem is those expats who have existed in Thailand using current month income, either because their visa requires the income method, or because their finances require it to be so. Others like myself find it convenient and practical to remit pension payments directly to a Thai bank account, despite the income not being required for a visa..... I'm certain there will be many others who do the same.

 

Those are people who remit current year income, which of course, has always required a tax return is filed. Yet we're told by some members that only a miniscule percentage of retired expats have ever filed tax returns on a regular basis, this potentially leave what, 10,000, 30,000, 50,000 expats who have knowingly committed tax evasion by not filing. What can the excuse be, I didn't know I had to? Ignorance of the law is, they say, no defense but it's really the only one there is. I don't think for one moment that TRD is going to go after those people but that's not the point. The point is that they could, if they chose to and the case against them is indefensible.

 

I believe that is an incorrect generalization to which I have a different view.

 

I suspect most of those who are you are considering, may have ALREADY paid tax on the income, and are covered by a DTA between the country where their income sourced, and Thailand.

 

Further, I also suspect many of those have savings in excess of their annual income OUTSIDE of Thailand, and hence they can make a valid financial case that the money they brought in is NOT current year income (which would be especially relevant for those where the DTA did not cover their income).

 

so I dare say your 10,000, 30,000, 50,000 figure is simply not correct.

 

On this - unless either of can point to a definitive statistic that is not questionable, I think we will need to agree to disagree.

.

Edited 19 hours ago by oldcpu

[Yumthai]

19 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Those are people who remit current year income, which of course, has always required a tax return is filed. Yet we're told by some members that only a miniscule percentage of retired expats have ever filed tax returns on a regular basis, this potentially leave what, 10,000, 30,000, 50,000 expats who have knowingly committed tax evasion by not filing. What can the excuse be, I didn't know I had to? Ignorance of the law is, they say, no defense but it's really the only one there is. I don't think for one moment that TRD is going to go after those people but that's not the point. The point is that they could, if they chose to and the case against them is indefensible.

I suspect there are more expats committing tax evasion than your numbers. I would say it's not only about ignorance of the Law, it's also because of no rules enforcement or corruption awareness. If TRD is not going after these people, as you mention, then there is no worry nor case to be defended.

[oldcpu]

1 minute ago, Yumthai said:

I suspect there are more expats committing tax evasion than your numbers. I would say it's not only about ignorance of the Law, it's also because of no rules enforcement or corruption awareness. If TRD is not going after these people, as you mention, then there is no worry nor case to be defended.

What I typed in response to Chiang Mai applies.

 

I suspect most have aleady paid tax and are protected by a DTA.  And further many likely have savings outside of Thailand, yielding higher interest than what Thai banks can provide, and hence they can financially prove they are not in effect bringing in current year income.

 

Neither of us have the actual proof here - so this is speculation - at best, IMHO.

[oldcpu]

8 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

I suspect most have aleady paid tax and are protected by a DTA. 

 

 

If one looks at lists as to the % of the nationalities that make up the most expatriates in Thailand (lets look at the top 10 or so), EVERY ONE comes with a country with a DTA ...  I note:

- Myanmar - DTA
- Cambodia - DTA
- Laos - DTA
- China - DTA
- Great Britain & Northern Ireland - DTA
- Japan - DTA
- India - DTA
- USA - DTA
- Netherlands - DTA
- Germany - DTA
- France - DTA
- Russia - DTA

My speculation is that most of those from Myanmar, Cambodia and Laos are likely working in Thailand, so they do not fall under the consideration of this discussions of expats bringing in money to Thailand.  One might also speculate that applies to China, although clearly there is a lot of Chinese money brought into Thailand.

 

The remaining countries with the largest #s of expatriates, all have DTAs with Thailand.  And so before stating that they may be avoiding tax, one really needs to check the details of their DTAs.

.

It is possible, thou, that many are not filing tax returns when some of them should be (filing tax returns) even if they owe no tax.

[Yumthai]

8 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

What I typed in response to Chiang Mai applies.

 

I suspect most have aleady paid tax and are protected by a DTA.  And further many likely have savings outside of Thailand, yielding higher interest than what Thai banks can provide, and hence they can financially prove they are not in effect bringing in current year income.

 

Neither of us have the actual proof here - so this is speculation - at best, IMHO.

Agreed, we can't know for sure. DTAs are complex and do not 100% bulletproof remitted income depending on case.

How about all foreigners who have bought properties in Thailand? It's reasonable to think most have sold assets abroad to remit and buy within the same year.

[sometimewoodworker]

33 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

I suspect most have aleady paid tax and are protected by a DTA.

Part of the amounts remitted are covered by the tax paid (NB you need proof of tax payment) however DTA’s especially from low taxation countries do not shied remittances from Thai taxation.

 

Even from higher taxation countries like the U.K. there is a range where the U.K. personal allowance is higher than the Thai allowances so Thai tax is due. And when you get to Singapore with a maximum tax rate of 24% (at 24million baht) virtually all income remitted will attract Thai taxation.

 

The concept that a DTA provides immunity from Thai taxation is wrong.

You may not have meant that but if you didn’t then you need to change the wording of your statements.

[oldcpu]

14 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

The concept that a DTA provides immunity from Thai taxation is wrong.

You may not have meant that but if you didn’t then you need to change the wording of your statements.

 

No - I don't need to change any more than claims "of 10,000, 30,000, 50,000 expats who have knowingly committed tax evasion" when such is HIGHLY UNLIKELY the case.

 

Further DTAs CAN provide immunity from Thai tax in some cases.  Not all cases.  Which is why I noted DTAs must be examined. I was clear there.

 

Further, case in point:  My Canadian pension can ONLY be taxed in Canada. FULL STOP. This is in accordance with the Canada-Thai DTA.  The DTA does for that pension provide immunity from Thai taxation. It is NOT wrong.

 

Perhaps, you did not mean to say what you did , but if you didn't then maybe you need to change the wording of your statement.

Edited 18 hours ago by oldcpu

[The Cyclist]

55 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Others like myself find it convenient and practical to remit pension payments directly to a Thai bank account, despite the income not being required for a visa..... I'm certain there will be many others who do the same.

 

56 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Those are people who remit current year income, which of course, has always required a tax return is filed. 

Yet we're told by some members that only a miniscule percentage of retired expats have ever filed tax returns on a regular basis,

 

The majority of other Brit retirees that I know here in Thailand, are on some form of Government Pension. Be that ex police, ex forces, an ex fireman and a coupke of others. Granted, it is small cohort, but if that is extrapolated across the whole of Thailand, then yes, very few would be filing tax returns.

 

The other cohort that I knew going back 6 to 12 years ago were mostly O & G workers, who like me, were never tax residents and never needed to file a tax return.

 

So on the Brit side, I don't think that there would be large numbers tax filing, aside from those that were legally working in Thailand.

[sometimewoodworker]

29 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Further, case in point:  My Canadian pension can ONLY be taxed in Canada. FULL STOP. This is in accordance with the Canada-Thai DTA.  The DTA does for that pension provide immunity from Thai taxation. It is NOT wrong.

I have no idea, nor is it relevant, of your sources of income.
 

ALL DTA’s provide protection for some income types against Thai taxation 

NO DTA provides protection for all types of income 

 

38 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Further DTAs CAN provide immunity from Thai tax in some cases.  Not all cases.  Which is why I noted DTAs must be examined. I was clear there.

You may have believed you were clear, you were not.

 

The implication of your post was that the mere presence of a DTA made all the income immune to Thai taxation 

 

You now say that, that was not your meaning. I accept your reworded statement as a significantly better statement of the facts.

[oldcpu]

23 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You may have believed you were clear, you were not.

 

The implication of your post was that the mere presence of a DTA made all the income immune to Thai taxation 

 

 

 

You are incorrect.  You need to read more carefully.  Look above where I specifically stated:

 

The remaining countries with the largest #s of expatriates, all have DTAs with Thailand.  And so before stating that they may be avoiding tax, one really needs to check the details of their DTAs.

 

What part of that do you not understand?

 

 

Edited 17 hours ago by oldcpu

[oldcpu]

41 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You now say that, that was not your meaning. I accept your reworded statement as a significantly better statement of the facts.

 

I reworded nothing. I tried to clarify your not reading.  I stand by my statements. You may wish to edit yours.

Edited 17 hours ago by oldcpu

[oldcpu]

And to get back on point ...   claims "of 10,000, 30,000, 50,000 expats who have knowingly committed tax evasion"  by bringing foreign income into Thailand then such is HIGHLY UNLIKELY the case.  There is NO evidence to suggest such. 

 

Rather if one looks at the total # of expats from the different countries where the expatriates come from ... If one considers which countries where most expatriates who bring money into Thailand come from (as opposed to the largest population of expatriates who are likely trying to send money out of Thailand (ie Myanmar, Laos, Cambodia) , and  if one looks at the DTA's from those countries where money is likely brought into Thailand, and if one examines the DTAs  - then it I believe the speculation "of 10,000, 30,000, 50,000 expats who have knowingly committed tax evasion"  is an exaggeration and inaccurate.

 

It does not help if we exaggerate.

.

Edited 17 hours ago by oldcpu

[Eudaimonia]

6 hours ago, oldcpu said:

Have you read a translation of the Revenue Department Order p161 and the subsequent clarification in Revenue Department Order p162?  

 

Please correct me if I am wrong,  but based on what I quoted - I suspect you did not (as my understanding is that P162 contradicts what you just posted).

 

Order 162/2566 clarified that the notorious order 161/2566, effective from January 1, 2024, does not apply to income earned before January 1, 2024.

 

This meant that income derived before January 1, 2024, would still be subject to the previous rule: it would only be taxed if brought into Thailand within the same tax year it was earned.

 

Ergo, foreign-source income earned in 2023 is only assessable if brought into Thailand in 2023. And this is why it was not a good idea for people to rush to send money in late 2023 from foreign accounts that already had income deposited earlier that year. (Not that I expect anyone to start asking questions about that now.)

Edited 14 hours ago by Eudaimonia

[chiang mai]

5 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

I believe that is an incorrect generalization to which I have a different view.

 

I suspect most of those who are you are considering, may have ALREADY paid tax on the income, and are covered by a DTA between the country where their income sourced, and Thailand.

 

Further, I also suspect many of those have savings in excess of their annual income OUTSIDE of Thailand, and hence they can make a valid financial case that the money they brought in is NOT current year income (which would be especially relevant for those where the DTA did not cover their income).

 

so I dare say your 10,000, 30,000, 50,000 figure is simply not correct.

 

On this - unless either of can point to a definitive statistic that is not questionable, I think we will need to agree to disagree.

.

I don't think about the 4 million or so foreigners who live in Thailand, only the 180,000 or so Western expats, some of whom have frequented these forums for the past 20 years or more. I know from previous debates over that period that the number of expats using the income method is not small, but I have no idea what the number is. The fact remains that even today, many expats are unable to raise the 800k needed for a visa deposit and must resort to illegal agency tactics for this purpose.....I don't believe this is a small number of expats.

 

I cannot recall ever being involved in even one discussion about Thai Tax, prior to the current slew of threads following news of the rule change, tax was simply not something that members debated, or even enquired about, it just wasn't on anyone's radar. If ever there was a debate involving tax, it was always in the context of tax free interest bearing accounts available in the IOM and elsewhere offshore.

 

From a personal perspective, Thai tax was never something that featured in my remittance planning over the years so I suspect there were times where I remitted savings principle along with interest earned in the same year. My pensions have long been deposited directly into my Thai account but fortunately are multi country sourced, the combination of which makes the total free of Thai tax. But I recall from those past debates that many were not as fortunate yet still tax was never an issue.

 

I did not generalize about the number of expats, I said I don't know and merely offered a probable range. Unlike you I think it is sometimes helpful to remind ourselves of these these types of issues because it may provide some insight into TRD thinking, rational and motivation. I have no idea how many people have ignored Thai tax over that period or whether the range should be 1000 or 5,000 or 10k, 30k or 50k.  What I do know for certain is that tax was never a concern and for many it was never a consideration, so if the number ended up being higher rather than lower, I for one would not be at all surprised.  Of far bigger concern to expats over that period was the Baht/Pound exchange rate, which threatened to make many expats ineligible for their visa's and did send many back home as it fell from the 70's down to the low 40's over many years.

 

  

Edited 14 hours ago by chiang mai

[sometimewoodworker]

8 hours ago, chiang mai said:

I cannot recall ever being involved in even one discussion about Thai Tax, prior to the current slew of threads following news of the rule change, tax was simply not something that members debated, or even enquired about

Like you there were never any online discussions that I saw, but unlike you I did occasionally get asked about the tax situation and though I didn’t actually read the TRD information I was well aware of the tax free status of previous years income. I shared this knowledge if it was relevant to the conversation. These conversations were occasional but not unusual I probably got asked a couple of times a year, possibly because people were referred to me as someone who might have bothered to understand the rules, I don’t know, it never came up AFIR.

 

Like you I am doubtful if the claim that a significant percentage of U.K. pension recipients in Thailand are on government service pensions, I never met one, they were all on state pension if over retirement age.

The claim is probably related to the places where the contacts took place.

 

It is only since 2024 that I have met 2 U.K.  government service pensioners.

Edited 5 hours ago by sometimewoodworker

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Like you there were never any online discussions that I saw, but unlike you I did occasionally get asked about the tax situation and though I didn’t actually read the TRD information I was well aware of the tax free status of previous years income. I shared this knowledge if it was relevant to the conversation. These conversations were occasional but not unusual I probably got asked a couple of times a year, possibly because people were referred to me as someone who might have bothered to understand the rules, I don’t know, it never came up AFIR.

 

Like you I am doubtful if the claim that a significant percentage of U.K. pension recipients in Thailand are on government service pensions, I never met one, they were all on state pension if over retirement age.

The claim is probably related to the places where the contacts took place.

 

It is only since 2024 that I have met 2 U.K.  government service pensioners.

Yes, my recollection is that all the debates were about the state pension versus the exchange rate and whether or not folks were going to be able to afford to stay or not. People seem to have had less money back then, the 800k was a bigger barrier than it is today.

[jwest10]

9 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Yes, my recollection is that all the debates were about the state pension versus the exchange rate and whether or not folks were going to be able to afford to stay or not. People seem to have had less money back then, the 800k was a bigger barrier than it is today.

I want to clarify a few things that have probably been posted but went up to the local Revenue Department today 18 Nov in Kanchanaburi yet again.
They did not know for sure the PND 90 and 91 and stated I have a pink id card which has the same number of digits as a Tin.
They again asked about my  income and stated just have the basic State Pension sent to my Thai bank and a couple of very small private pension ones and the total income for the Thai tax year 2024 is less than the 500k or possibly 550K currently tax exemptions and you do not need to file a tax form but bear in mind they not available.
My situation is straight forward but just sharing this information but others no doubt have huge income and rental income.
I also looked u[ the DTA agreement and not very clear,
Cheers all and just being helpful to you

 

[oldcpu]

As noted - I do not know the exact number of expatriates who may be affected by Thailand's recent (from 2023) P.161 and P.162.  I do believe there is a lot of speculation on this topic (including from myself) where I suspect many of us (including myself) could be wrong on occasion, as we attempt to obtain a better assessment.

 

From a 2019 Asean now post according to figures released by the United Nations,citing Thailand's Immigration Bureau, Thailand's expatriate population is considerably smaller than previous vague estimates.

 

According to the figures in the 2019 Thailand Migration report, there are just 150,707 expatriates residing in Thailand, of those 72,969 are retirees.

 

I do not believe most of us know the actual figures here.  Plus the data I found was IMMEDIATELY prior to the COVID years - and not after the COVID years.

 

 I have thou made an effort to assess if there have been any studies done on related aspects to this topic, and I note from a 2019 Asean now post according to figures released by the United Nations, citing Thailand's Immigration Bureau, Thailand's expatriate population is considerably smaller than previous vague estimates.

 

This references a 2019 Thailand Migration report (just prior to COVID), so one can probably only speculate if the numbers are similar today. Many expatriates from poor countries LEFT Thailand when COVID hit, only to come back later.

 

Here is a link to the PDF of the Thailand Migration Report 2019:

 

According to that report, the number of expats living in Thailand would be 312,944 individuals in November 2018, where among them, 162,237 individuals (51.8%) are categorized as workers.  And the other 48.2%?  MANY stay with Thai, or stay with a resident family, or stay with a Thai spouse.   The number of those who are retirees was ONLY 72,969.

 

One then, for that 72,969 expatriate retirees, needs to consider aspects where I do not believe either of us have any statistics.

 

How many of them only live from pension check to pension check?  And how many keep foreign bank accounts (that have MUCH higher interest than what can be offered in Thailand) and so in effect NEVER bring in current year income into Thailand.

 

Further, the DTA of the countries (in which income/pension) comes from for those 72,969 expatriate retirees needs to be considered.  Typically those countries are Japan, India, UK, USA, Korea, France, China, Taiwan, Russia.  Other countries with moderate numbers of expatriate (retirees) include Netherlands, Germany, Norway and Sweden. And there are further countries with retiree expatriates where the numbers are even MUCH smaller.

 

So using the year 2019 figures, ... if ONLY 72,96 retirees how many may be knowing avoiding tax?   Do they live from pay check to pay check ? , or do these retirees keep substantial funds OUTSIDE of Thailand, where interest rates are higher for savings (and hence they NEVER bring into Thailand current year income)?

 

Further, what do the DTA say about their pensions?  Are they ALREADY taxed by the country from which they get their pension (and excluded from Thai double taxation due to the DTA)?  

 

Many retirees also need to consider "interest" and "capital gains" in regards to their DTAs ... and due to the effort needed to look at each DTA for each country I did NOT look at such.  My experience thou, with expat retirees, is that those with such non-Thailand interest and capital gains, also have substantial bank accounts from outside of Thailand where they can show they did NOT bring in current year income into Thailand.

 

I looked at the most common countries (based on the noted statistics) in regards to pensions, and I am confident the MAJORITY (but not all) are well protected by their DTA.

 

Lets look at some of these countries,  where I looked at the DTA (AND I MAY HAVE THIS WRONG - SO IF YOU ARE FROM ONE OF THESE COUNTRIES - DON'T RELY ON WHAT I ASSESSED AS I FIND THE DTA LANGUAGE CONFUSING

 

However don't blindly reject such either.  Do your own research and don't simply pull numbers out of a hat.

 

Japan DTA - Any pension paid by Japan in respect of services rendered to Japan, shall only be taxable in Japan (except Thai citizens can be taxed in Thailand for Japanese pensions).  Its unclear to me how this applies to business pensions as the use of the word "contracting state" is ambiguous.

 

India DTA - pensions and similar remuneration paid to a resident of Thailand shall only be taxable in Thailand, except for Government Service in India, where government service pensions from India are only taxable in India (unless one a citizen of Thailand).  Business pensions from India shall only be taxable in India.

 

UK DTA - UK pensions to former UK government workers (or to those whose company supported the UK government) are only taxed in the UK.  I suspect other non-government pensions are also taxable in the UK (and possibly in Thailand), but in a quick surf of the DTA I am not clear. There is a substantial UK expatriate community on Asean Now and I suspect they all know the details.

 

USA DTA - Para-20 - USA Government service pensions are only taxable in USA.  Social security and other public pensions to a resident of Thailand, are only taxable in USA.  Annuities paid to Thai residents are taxed only in Thailand.  Again, there is a substantial US citizen expatriate community on Asian Now and I suspect they all know the details.

 

Korea DTA - Article-18 (pensions) - pensions of past employment in Korea and paid to a resident of Thailand may be taxed in Korea.  But I suspect if NOT a pension for government service it may also be taxed in Thailand (where Korea tax has priority ? ) .   If a pension for Korean government service it may only be taxed in Korea.  < I also found this DTA very confusing >

 

France DTA - Article-18 (private pensions) - Pensions for past employment in France and paid to residents of Thailand may only be taxed in France.

 

China DTA - pensions for Chinese government service are only taxed in China.  Other Chinese pensions are taxed in Thailand, although China may also tax such (I assume they get second priority).  I also found this unclear.

 

Taiwan (Taipei) DTA :  Article-18:  Pensions for past employment in Taiwan (Taipei) are only taxable in Tapei.

 

Russia DTA :  Pensions paid by Russian government to a Russian citizen who was employed by the Russian government are only taxable by Russia. Pensions paid to a resident of Thailand are only taxable in Thailand, not withstanding that pensions derived by a resident of Thailand may also be taxed in Russia if the pensions originate from Russia.

 

Netherlands DTA :  Pensions for government service in Netherlands (or for a business in connection with the government) may only be taxed in Netherlands.  Pensions for past employment in Netherlands to a resident of Thailand are only taxable in Thailand.  However it can also be taxed in Netherlands if used as a deduction for Netherlands income.

 

Germany DTA:  Pensions derived by a resident of Thailand may be taxed in Germany ONLY if such is used as a deduction for German income. Notwithstanding that, pensions from a Government authority (for Government service ??  ) shall be exempt from tax in Thailand. I found the German DTA a bit confusing as it left me wondering if pensions from a German company are taxable by a resident in Thailand?

 

Norway DTA: Pensions paid to a resident of Thailand shall only be taxable in Thailand, except that pensions paid to a Norwegian Government employee (or from company supporting the Norwegian government) shall only be taxable in Norway.

 

Sweden DTA: Pensions paid by Sweden for services rendered to Sweden (as government employee or employee of business supporting the Swedish government) are only taxable in Sweden.  I could see no reference to non-government employment/business-support pensions so its not clear to me where they are taxed. Again, I found the DTA confusing.

 

Canada DTA - pensions and other similar remuneration for past employment arising in Canada and paid to a resident of Thailand, shall be taxable only in Canada.

 

Again - TO EMPHASIZE, this is only my own quick look to try to assess a statement that large number of expatriates in Thailand were knowingly avoiding paying tax (which I don't believe).  

 

I STRONGLY RECOMMEND every expatriate look at the DTA associated with the country from which the expatriate derives their income and make their own assessment.  My quick look could be wrong.

 

However my look did convince me that the vast majority of expatriates to Thailand are NOT knowingly avoiding paying Thailand taxation - simply on the numbers from the 2019 immigration document AND from the content that I could understand in the DTAs.

 

Obviously I would be interested to learn otherwise - but lets do such pointing at actual studies and actual DTAs and not numbers pulled out of the thin air.

 

Edited 3 hours ago by oldcpu

[oldcpu]

Further to the above - here is an image from the Thailand 2019 migration document

[chiang mai]

10 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

As noted - I do not know the exact number of expatriates who may be affected by Thailand's recent (from 2023) P.161 and P.162.  I do believe there is a lot of speculation on this topic (including from myself) where I suspect many of us (including myself) could be wrong on occasion, as we attempt to obtain a better assessment.

 

From a 2019 Asean now post according to figures released by the United Nations,citing Thailand's Immigration Bureau, Thailand's expatriate population is considerably smaller than previous vague estimates.

 

According to the figures in the 2019 Thailand Migration report, there are just 150,707 expatriates residing in Thailand, of those 72,969 are retirees.

 

I do not believe most of us know the actual figures here.  Plus the data I found was IMMEDIATELY prior to the COVID years - and not after the COVID years.

 

 I have thou made an effort to assess if there have been any studies done on related aspects to this topic, and I note from a 2019 Asean now post according to figures released by the United Nations, citing Thailand's Immigration Bureau, Thailand's expatriate population is considerably smaller than previous vague estimates.

 

This references a 2019 Thailand Migration report (just prior to COVID), so one can probably only speculate if the numbers are similar today. Many expatriates from poor countries LEFT Thailand when COVID hit, only to come back later.

 

Here is a link to the PDF of the Thailand Migration Report 2019:

 

According to that report, the number of expats living in Thailand would be 312,944 individuals in November 2018, where among them, 162,237 individuals (51.8%) are categorized as workers.  And the other 48.2%?  MANY stay with Thai, or stay with a resident family, or stay with a Thai spouse.   The number of those who are retirees was ONLY 72,969.

 

One then, for that 72,969 expatriate retirees, needs to consider aspects where I do not believe either of us have any statistics.

 

How many of then only live from pension check to pension check?  And how many keep foreign bank accounts (that have MUCH higher interest than what can be offered in Thailand) and so in effect NEVER bring in current year income into Thailand.

 

Further, the DTA of the countries (in which income/pension) comes from for those 72,969 expatriate retirees needs to be considered.  Typically those countries are Japan, India, UK, USA, Korea, France, China, Taiwan, Russia.  Other countries with moderate numbers of expatriate (retirees) include Netherlands, Germany, Norway and Sweden. And there are further countries with retiree expatriates where the numbers are even MUCH smaller.

 

So using the year 2019 figures, ... if ONLY 72,96 retirees how many may be knowing avoiding tax?   Do they live from pay check to pay check ? , or do these retirees keep substantial funds OUTSIDE of Thailand, where interest rates are higher for savings (and hence they NEVER bring into Thailand current year income)?

 

Further, what do the DTA say about their pensions?  Are they ALEADY taxed by the country from which they get their pension (and excluded from Thai double taxation due to the DTA)?  

 

Many retirees also need to consider "interest" and "capital gains" in regards to their DTAs ... and due to the effort needed to look at each DTA for each country I did NOT look at such.  My experience thou, with expat retirees, is that those with such non-Thailand interest and capital gains, also have substantial bank accounts from outside of Thailand where they can show they did NOT bring in current year income into Thailand.

 

I looked at the most common countries (based on the noted statistics) in regards to pensions, and I am confident the MAJORITY (but not all) are well protected by their DTA.

 

Lets look at some of these countries,  where I looked at the DTA (AND I MAY HAVE THIS WRONG - SO IF YOU ARE FROM ONE OF THESE COUNTRIES - DON'T RELY ON WHAT I ASSESSED AS I FIND THE DTA LANGUAGE CONFUSING

 

However don't blindly reject such either.  Do your own research and don't simply pull numbers out of a hat.

 

Japan DTA - Any pension paid by Japan in respect of services rendered to Japan, shall only be taxable in Japan (except Thai citizens can be taxed in Thailand for Japanese pensions).  Its unclear to me how this applies to business pensions as the use of the word "contracting state" is ambiguous.

 

India DTA - pensions and similar remuneration paid to a resident of Thailand shall only be taxable in Thailand, except for Government Service in India, where government service pensions from India are only taxable in India (unless one a citizen of Thailand).  Business pensions from India shall only be taxable in India.

 

UK DTA - UK pensions to former UK government workers (or to those whose company supported the UK government) are only taxed in the UK.  I suspect other non-government pensions are also taxable in the UK (and possibly in Thailand), but in a quick surf of the DTA I am not clear. There is a substantial UK expatriate community on Asean Now and I suspect they all know the details.

 

USA DTA - Para-20 - USA Government service pensions are only taxable in USA.  Social security and other public pensions to a resident of Thailand, are only taxable in USA.  Annuities paid to Thai residents are taxed only in Thailand.  Again, there is a substantial US citizen expatriate community on Asian Now and I suspect they all know the details.

 

Korea DTA - Article-18 (pensions) - pensions of past employment in Korea and paid to a resident of Thailand may be taxed in Korea.  But I suspect if NOT a pension for government service it may also be taxed in Thailand (where Korea tax has priority ? ) .   If a pension for Korean government service it may only be taxed in Korea.  < I also found this DTA very confusing >

 

France DTA - Article-18 (private pensions) - Pensions for past employment in France and paid to residents of Thailand may only be taxed in France.

 

China DTA - pensions for Chinese government service are only taxed in China.  Other Chinese pensions are taxed in Thailand, although China may also tax such (I assume they get second priority).  I also found this unclear.

 

Taiwan (Taipei) DTA :  Article-18:  Pensions for past employment in Taiwan (Taipei) are only taxable in Tapei.

 

Russia DTA :  Pensions paid by Russian government to a Russian citizen who was employed by the Russian government are only taxable by Russia. Pensions paid to a resident of Thailand are only taxable in Thailand, not withstanding that pensions derived by a resident of Thailand may also be taxed in Russia if the pensions originate from Russia.

 

Netherlands DTA :  Pensions for government service in Netherlands (or for a business in connection with the government) may only be taxed in Netherlands.  Pensions for past employment in Netherlands to a resident of Thailand are only taxable in Thailand.  However it can also be taxed in Netherlands if used as a deduction for Netherlands income.

 

Germany DTA:  Pensions derived by a resident of Thailand may be taxed in Germany ONLY if such is used as a deduction for German income. Notwithstanding that, pensions from a Government authority (for Government service ??  ) shall be exempt from tax in Thailand. I found the German DTA a bit confusing as it left me wondering if pensions from a German company are taxable by a resident in Thailand?

 

Norway DTA: Pensions paid to a resident of Thailand shall only be taxable in Thailand, except that pensions paid to a Norwegian Government employee (or from company supporting the Norwegian government) shall only be taxable in Norway.

 

Sweden DTA: Pensions paid by Sweden for services rendered to Sweden (as government employee or employee of business supporting the Swedish government) are only taxable in Sweden.  I could see no reference to non-government employment/business-support pensions so its not clear to me where they are taxed. Again, I found the DTA confusing.

 

Canada DTA - pensions and other similar remuneration for past employment arising in Canada and paid to a resident of Thailand, shall be taxable only in Canada.

 

Again - TO EMPHASIZE, this is only my own quick look to try to assess a statement that large number of expatriates in Thailand were knowingly avoiding paying tax (which I don't believe).  

 

I STRONGLY RECOMMEND every expatriate look at the DTA associated with the country from which the expatriate derives their income and make their own assessment.  My quick look could be wrong.

 

However my look did convince me that the vast majority of expatriates to Thailand are NOT knowingly avoiding paying Thailand taxation - simply on the numbers from the 2019 immigration document AND from the content that I could understand in the DTAs.

 

Obviously I would be interested to learn otherwise - but lets do such pointing at actual studies and actual DTAs and not numbers pulled out of the thin air.

 

Good god, are you kidding me? It was only an observation, not an invitation to write a thesis!

[oldcpu]

1 minute ago, chiang mai said:

Good god, are you kidding me? It was only an observation, not an invitation to write a thesis!

 

No worries.  But the misinformation simply grows and grows and grows.

 

It NEEDS to stop sometime.   Facts are the best way to stop such.

 

Show me a better way to stop the misinformation. 

 

I am listening.

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, oldcpu said:

 

No worries.  But the misinformation simply grows and grows and grows.

 

It NEEDS to stop sometime.   Facts are the best way to stop such.

 

Show me a better way to stop the misinformation. 

 

I am listening.

We've all agreed that nobody knows the accurate figures, that should be the end of it I'd have thought. This is not about stopping misinformation, it's about behaving in a realistic and sensible manner.

[oldcpu]

1 minute ago, chiang mai said:

We've all agreed that nobody knows the accurate figures, that should be the end of it I'd have thought. This is not about stopping misinformation, it's about behaving in a realistic and sensible manner.

 

Yes - I agree re: the numbers. 

 

I also thought it would be the end of it until someone falsely accused me of inferring that DTAs protected everyone from Thai taxation.   Facts are IMHO the only way to counter such.

[chiang mai]

Just now, oldcpu said:

 

Yes - I agree re: the numbers. 

 

I also thought it would be the end of it until someone falsely accused me of inferring that DTAs protected everyone from Thai taxation.   Facts are IMHO the only way to counter such.

Different people have different opinions, it's not a black and white, someone must be right and somebody wrong. Suggest this exchange come to an end and get back on topic.

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, oldcpu said:

UK DTA - UK pensions to former UK government workers (or to those whose company supported the UK government) are only taxed in the UK.  I suspect other non-government pensions are also taxable in the UK (and possibly in Thailand), but in a quick surf of the DTA I am not clear. There is a substantial UK expatriate community on Asean Now and I suspect they all know the details.

To clarify for U.K. citizens and taxpayers. (NB I do not address Thai citizens, the rules are different)
 

U.K. Government service pensions are U.K. taxed only

 

All other pensions (the state pension is one of these)  are in one of 3 categories.

 

1) taxed in the U.K.; assessable for taxation in Thailand, when remitted to Thailand credit is available for U.K. tax paid (you should keep good records) you may or may not have a top up tax liability in Thailand, individual circumstances will decide 

 

2) untaxed in the U.K. as they are paid outside the U.K.; this means that the total is assessable in Thailand no credit is available, if the amount remitted is greater than you Thai allowances you have a Thai tax liability 

 

3) a government service pension that has been converted to be paid outside the U.K. taxation area; in this case 2) above applies 

 

This is the U.K. / Thai tax law as modified by the U.K. Thai DTC 

 

If you should/are allowed, in fact to submit Thai tax return and get a TIN is at the discretion of your local tax office 

Edited 2 hours ago by sometimewoodworker

[Talon]

17 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

Further, I also suspect many of those have savings in excess of their annual income OUTSIDE of Thailand, and hence they can make a valid financial case that the money they brought in is NOT current year income (which would be especially relevant for those where the DTA did not cover their income).

 

so I dare say your 10,000, 30,000, 50,000 figure is simply not correct.

 

This is something that I never considered; and it definitely would apply to me over many, many years.

 

Interesting. I will investigate further.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, oldcpu said:

Japan DTA - Any pension paid by Japan in respect of services rendered to Japan, shall only be taxable in Japan (except Thai citizens can be taxed in Thailand for Japanese pensions).  Its unclear to me how this applies to business pensions as the use of the word "contracting state" is ambiguous.

Article 3 sub (c) Japan Thailand DTS  no ambiguity 

Quote

(c) the terms "a Contracting State" and "the other Contracting State" mean Thailand or Japan, as the context requires;

 

[sometimewoodworker]

10 minutes ago, Talon said:

This is something that I never considered; and it definitely would apply to me over many, many years.

The critical point is to crystallise the financial situation as of 1/1/2024.

Because all funds at that date are tax free whenever the are brought into Thailand.

 

Separate accounts make the situation clear.

if you commingle the funds specially stocks and shares, it becomes difficult to prove the date origin and when profits arise.

 

Bed and breakfasting should have been done at the end of last year however if you didn’t the sooner you do it the more clear the situation will be.