Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[ukrules]

On 12/19/2024 at 6:20 PM, stat said:

Maybe they will check if they were taxed somewhere but I doubt it.

 

Having being taxed elsewhere or not is inconsequential if you're also a non resident.
 

 

[oldcpu]

11 hours ago, redwood1 said:

 

Has any one here made note on the amount of taxes a farang pays on a condo per year? If they pay at all?.......Its like 100 baht a year or some other very very very low amount.........Real estate taxes in Thailand seem to me to be insanely low compared to the west.....

If they ever decided to get the Real estate taxes working in Thailand they would bring in many Trillions of baht......

 

To the best of my knowledge, if a property (such as a condo) is one's primary residence in Thailand where the person (Thai or farang) is the owner and registered as living in that property, then no property tax for the property (condo for a foreigner)  is due.

[scottiejohn]

37 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

Retired expats on fixed pensions are not the target of this measure!

 

PH

They may not be the intended target of this measure but will they get swept up into it is the question?

[Phulublub]

4 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

To the best of my knowledge, if a property (such as a condo) is one's primary residence in Thailand where the person (Thai or farang) is the owner and registered as living in that property, then no property tax for the property (condo for a foreigner)  is due.

Not quite true.  For a yellow Tabien Baan, there is no property tax to pay.  For foreign owned condo with a blue Tabien Baan, then propoerty tax (which is minimal) is due.  Just about the only reason for a foreigner to go through the hoops to get a yellow tabien baan

 

PH

[Phulublub]

1 minute ago, scottiejohn said:

They may not be the intended target of this measure but will they get swept up into it is the question?

Due to the numerous DTAs, the vast, vast majority of foreigners who are tax resident here will have no, or only extremely small Thai tax liability. 

 

Once I start receiving my UK OAP (if I live that long!) I will not have any laibility due to the tax I will already have paid in the UK. I have heard that is is possible for those taxed here to receive UK OAP tax free (in UK) and pay tax on it here, but as I a still two years away from this, have yet to do any proper research to validate this.

 

PH

[anrcaccount]

6 hours ago, aldriglikvid said:

That's why I believe either this will be a "nothingburger" (i.e. self reporting with very few controls) or an absolute smash to Thailand as an expat destination. 

Rest assured, not a single Russian, Chinese or Indian (their 3 top tourists) will self report any tax on international transfers this coming spring. Not one

 

 

Extremely well said. 

 

Imagine the first case of an expat selling a property in their home country (assume big capital gain exempt in that country ) and buying a Villa in Thailand, let's say 30M THB, then getting slugged another 10M THB in tax for the privilege of the purchase, by self-filing a Thai tax return..... 

 

That'll be all over the news!

 

What everyone seems to forget is, for many years, many have been remitting foreign income earnt same year to Thailand, and no tax returns have been filed, no consequences. 

 

Apart from a few "compliance crusaders" and a small number of other individuals (including those taken advantage of by the predatory tax agencies that have sprung up), I'd take a wild guess that 95%+ of expats will not file a Thai tax return in 2025 (despite possibly being technically required to). 

 

 

[oldcpu]

28 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

Not quite true.  For a yellow Tabien Baan, there is no property tax to pay.  For foreign owned condo with a blue Tabien Baan, then propoerty tax (which is minimal) is due.  Just about the only reason for a foreigner to go through the hoops to get a yellow tabien baan

 

I have  a yellow Tabien Baan.   That is what I had in mind when I typed " where the person (Thai or farang) is the owner and registered as living in that property" ... 

 

I did not think it  possible for a foreigner to register in the local city hall against a property (as their primary residence) without one having a  yellow Tabien Baan  (unless one is a permanent resident to Thailand).

 

I guess  I should have been more specific.

 

 

[Phulublub]

43 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

I have  a yellow Tabien Baan.   That is what I had in mind when I typed " where the person (Thai or farang) is the owner and registered as living in that property" ... 

 

I did not think it  possible for a foreigner to register in the local city hall against a property (as their primary residence) without one having a  yellow Tabien Baan  (unless one is a permanent resident to Thailand).

 

I guess  I should have been more specific.

 

 

Maybe, I dunno.  As far as I am aware, I am registered as living in my condo, but I have a Blue Book as I am told getting a yelow one at Pattaya City Hall is nigh on impossible....am I not registered?

 

PH

[Lorry]

5 hours ago, Phulublub said:

Maybe, I dunno.  As far as I am aware, I am registered as living in my condo, but I have a Blue Book as I am told getting a yelow one at Pattaya City Hall is nigh on impossible....am I not registered?

 

PH

What do you mean by "I am registered as living in my condo"???

Registration in Thai is tabien. So how/where can you be "registered" if not in a yellow tabien baan?

[stat]

22 hours ago, ukrules said:

 

Having being taxed elsewhere or not is inconsequential if you're also a non resident.
 

 

In my example you are a thai tax resident in 25 and transfer untaxed income from 2024. IMHO it could technically be taxable in TH then in 25 if remitted to TH.

[TheAppletons]

16 hours ago, Lorry said:

So how/where can you be "registered" if not in a yellow tabien baan?

 

  My address is "registered" via the TM-30.  Yours isn't?

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, TheAppletons said:

 

  My address is "registered" via the TM-30.  Yours isn't?

 

My understanding is that the TM47/TM30 are one's registrations for immigration purposes.

 

However those do NOT help when it comes to property tax for condo ownership in Thailand.

 

For home (condo) ownership purposes (so to NOT pay property tax on one's condo in Thailand), I had thought (and still think) one needs to register at the local city district office that one owns a condo in Thailand and that this is one's 1st residence (home) when in Thailand.  If one is thus registered as such at the district office , one then does not have to pay annual property tax on one's condo.

 

Part of this (somewhat IMHO painful) process of registering results in one obtaining the Yellow book for the property.  I believe only Thai citizens or falang permanent residents to Thailand can have their name in the Blue book.

 

But I may have the above incorrect.

[Phulublub]

2 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

My understanding is that the TM47/TM30 are one's registrations for immigration purposes.

 

However those do NOT help when it comes to property tax for condo ownership in Thailand.

 

For home (condo) ownership purposes (so to NOT pay property tax on one's condo in Thailand), I had thought (and still think) one needs to register at the local city district office that one owns a condo in Thailand and that this is one's 1st residence (home) when in Thailand.  If one is thus registered as such at the district office , one then does not have to pay annual property tax on one's condo.

 

Part of this (somewhat IMHO painful) process of registering results in one obtaining the Yellow book for the property.  I believe only Thai citizens or falang permanent residents to Thailand can have their name in the Blue book.

 

But I may have the above incorrect.

I think we are in agreement but misunderstandings occur with being recognised as living in ones' own condo by different organisations.  I pay property tax as I don't have a yellow book - but as City Hall sends the invoice to me, by name, at my condo, I (incorrectly) assumed that meant I was registered  as living here per, as you say, TM47 and TM30.....I guess not as on reflection, I could actually be living pretty much anywhere and they would still send the invoice to me as the owner.

 

PH

 

 

[Enzian]

13 hours ago, oldcpu said:

I believe only Thai citizens or falang permanent residents to Thailand can have their name in the Blue book.

Example of an exception. I American (on Non-O only) was in a 4 year relationship with a Thai woman (not married), and for the last two years we lived in a condo she had owned all along in Din Daeng. For some reason (I was giving her money for the mortgage, but that was informal) we decided to put me in her blue book as that would give me a yellow book and pink card; the process at the local office was not difficult. After we broke up I eventually discarded the yellow book with the irrelevant address, but the pink card, which never expires, still comes in handy. And FWIW, I have no current interest in activating the number on the pink card to be a TIN, partly because I'm in a situation where I only remit US SS. (Oh and I should add, the reason may have been that I was thereby exempt from filing 90 day reports, and so I did not, and never heard any protest from Immigration at time of extension.)

[OJAS]

32 minutes ago, Enzian said:

we decided to put me in her blue book as that would give me a yellow book and pink card; the process at the local office was not difficult.

 

A case of the local office making up their own rules (but to your benefit, for a change!), perhaps?

 

[Ricardo]

14 hours ago, TheAppletons said:

 

  My address is "registered" via the TM-30.  Yours isn't?

 

Every tourist who comes in for a week's visit, surely the hotel reports your presence on your first-night, yet they're not tax-resident at all  ...  so TM30 would be pretty-useless for looking for possible tax-residents ?

 

Even filing a TM47 would just mean a visitor was staying more-than 90-days or-so in-one-go, but perhaps still not visiting long-enough to become  tax-resident here, so either would mean that the TRD would be searching for us farang-needles in a very-large haystack of data ? 

 

I'm hoping for Santa's present to me to be, that the TRD announce this whole thing will just go-away !  

 

Merry Christmas, everyone !  

[redwood1]

Merry Christmas to everyone......And I am wishing all 181 plus day stayer a happy tax free 2025, and 2026 and 2036 and 2046....... lol........

 

I hope no one here ever pays a single baht in Taxes EVER...............Heck I am even hoping the desperate to get a tax number and pay taxes out the wazoo farangs here dont ever pay a single baht of their hard earned money in taxes.....

 

 

[jwest10]

On 12/24/2024 at 10:04 AM, Enzian said:

Example of an exception. I American (on Non-O only) was in a 4 year relationship with a Thai woman (not married), and for the last two years we lived in a condo she had owned all along in Din Daeng. For some reason (I was giving her money for the mortgage, but that was informal) we decided to put me in her blue book as that would give me a yellow book and pink card; the process at the local office was not difficult. After we broke up I eventually discarded the yellow book with the irrelevant address, but the pink card, which never expires, still comes in handy. And FWIW, I have no current interest in activating the number on the pink card to be a TIN, partly because I'm in a situation where I only remit US SS. (Oh and I should add, the reason may have been that I was thereby exempt from filing 90 day reports, and so I did not, and never heard any protest from Immigration at time of extension.)

This is news and thought everyone had to do a 90 day report ?

[oldcpu]

2 hours ago, jwest10 said:

This is news and thought everyone had to do a 90 day report ?

I believe everyone does have to do a 90 day report, except for those on an LTR visa where it's an annual report for them. .. And departing Thailand and re-entering Thailand will reset the reporting "clock".

[TheAppletons]

On 12/22/2024 at 9:21 PM, anrcaccount said:

Apart from a few "compliance crusaders" and a small number of other individuals (including those taken advantage of by the predatory tax agencies that have sprung up), I'd take a wild guess that 95%+ of expats will not file a Thai tax return in 2025 (despite possibly being technically required to). 

 

 

 

  Compliance Crusaders is the name of my new band.

[chiang mai]

On 12/22/2024 at 9:21 PM, anrcaccount said:

 

What everyone seems to forget is, for many years, many have been remitting foreign income earnt same year to Thailand, and no tax returns have been filed, no consequences. 

 

Apart from a few "compliance crusaders" and a small number of other individuals (including those taken advantage of by the predatory tax agencies that have sprung up), I'd take a wild guess that 95%+ of expats will not file a Thai tax return in 2025 (despite possibly being technically required to). 

 

 

 

"and no tax returns have been filed, no consequences". 

 

And how does tax protester in chief know this to be fact!

 

95%......55555555

[chiang mai]

It's curious that there is a small group of members who are still trying to convince everyone else that nothing about the tax picture has changed and that nothing will change in the future! The reasoning for these things us varied but includes things such as:

 

Nothing ever happened before so nothing will happen in the future.

 

The TRD isn't sufficiently organised or capable to begin taxing expats.

 

Foreigners are a major source of revenue, trying to tax them would threaten that income stream.

 

There is no enforcement or penalties to speak of so why bother.

 

There various degrees of merit to each of the above reasons but ONLY if you think you understand more about the workings of the TRD than you actually do. For example, do you really know what the TRD does and how they do it? Do you really understand how TRD functions, their effectiveness rate and the degree of risk associated with ignoring them? (Queue the anecdotes whilst we look at some statistics)

 

In 2020 there was 9.55 million people in the tax net. "Out of 9.55 million taxpayers, there were 3.3 million people who had a monthly income of 25,000 baht, the minimum threshold to file tax forms, while the remaining 6.25 million earn less than the threshold".

 

Three years later, the tax net had increased by almost 25%: "There were 11.9 million personal income tax forms filed for the income year 2023, submitted between Jan 1 and April 29, 2024, an increase of 3.34% from the same period last year".

 

It is very clear that TRD is increasing the tax net so somebody somewhere is doing something right and is serious about making more people pay tax. As for the lack of enforcement: how difficult would it be for TRD and Immi. to implement tax clearance certificates or make a tax return filing, part of the visa extension process, it's just another piece of paper!

 

The value of foreigners to the Thai economy: I don't want to debate again what that value is but my personal opinion is that it's not large, that however is not the point. The point is that only a small percentage of expats are likely to leave the country as a result of taxation and they will soon be replaced by others who are better able to tolerate and traveserve the problem.

 

I have to say that I wouldn't want to bet my anecdotal evidence on those four reasons above being completely right, unless of course you happen to be feeling exceptionally lucky and are prepared to double down each year. But of course, if anyone has some hard evidence and statistics, rather than just lots of emotion and sentiment, that might help the argument!

 

 

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[redwood1]

11 hours ago, chiang mai said:

 

"and no tax returns have been filed, no consequences". 

 

And how does tax protester in chief know this to be fact!

 

95%......55555555

 

You offended me by implying some one else could be a bigger tax protester than me...And not just me I bet the other tax protester Indians braves are offended too...

[chiang mai]

11 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

 

You offended me by implying some one else could be a bigger tax protester than me...And not just me I bet the other tax protester Indians braves are offended too...

He can be the chief, you can be the chairman, everyone else will have to fight you both for the titles, how's that.

[The Cyclist]

4 hours ago, chiang mai said:

In 2020 there was 9.55 million people in the tax net. "Out of 9.55 million taxpayers, there were 3.3 million people who had a monthly income of 25,000 baht, the minimum threshold to file tax forms, while the remaining 6.25 million earn less than the threshold".

 

A very badly worded paragraph. I would suggest it should read

 

9.55 million tax filers.

 

3.3 million had a monthly income above 25,000 baht, where tax, on average, becomes payable, after deductions and actually paid tax.

 

The remaining 6.25 million had no tax liability after TEDA's were applied 

 

Which flies in the face of those that claim that they do not need to file a tax return as their TEDA's take them bellow the threshold. Or struggle to get their heads around that the threshold for tax filing is not the same as the threshold for paying tax.

[chiang mai]

10 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

A very badly worded paragraph. I would suggest it should read

 

9.55 million tax filers.

 

3.3 million had a monthly income above 25,000 baht, where tax, on average, becomes payable, after deductions and actually paid tax.

 

The remaining 6.25 million had no tax liability after TEDA's were applied 

 

Which flies in the face of those that claim that they do not need to file a tax return as their TEDA's take them bellow the threshold. Or struggle to get their heads around that the threshold for tax filing is not the same as the threshold for paying tax.

If you file a tax return you are regarded as being in the tax net which comprises the total number of people who are registered for tax.

 

From previous articles on this subject, around 3.5 million of the returns were null returns, i.e. people filing returns where no tax or refund was due. Tax return filers do file returns when they have zero returns, those are people who presumably take the TRD Code at face value rather than go with perceived accepted practise.