Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[TroubleandGrumpy]

1 hour ago, OJAS said:

 

Personally, I am  now seriously wondering whether one way in which "the Thai Govt could start making Thais and Expats pay more income taxes" with minimal additional effort on the TRD's part in the short term would be through reductions in - or even the complete abolition of - the various generous allowances and exemptions, the continued existence of which we seem, to date, to have taken as read.

 

Indeed - there is nothing to say that will not occur. And so many other things that it would take me hours to write the list.

 

Just conjecture - but if we assume one TRD Officer/er decides those allowance/exemptions do not apply to Falang, and that DTA irrelevant, who do you think he/she will hit with a tax bill sent to their home?  Obviously, anyone that lodged a tax return !  I am NOT saying that will happen, and it is very unlikely to happen, BUT the rules here are not the rules as we grew up with and know - they are 'interpretable' and the Officer (whether Tax, Immigration, Amphur, etc etc) has total autonomy to make whatever decision they want.  By the way, TRD Officers have total autonomy to decide how much income taxes anyone has to pay - based on their lifestyle and assets - Yes - look it up. Plus, if the Tax Officer disagrees with you, and they send you a tax bill you have 7 days to pay (extendable to 14 on application) and then and only then, can you lodge an appeal - in Thai with a Thai approved tax lawyer/agent - good luck if that happens.  

 

I have been advised in writing that because I do not have to pay any income taxes - my taxable income less allowances (married) - then I do not have to lodge a tax return - "This is based on the filing rules as of today's date."

 

[Mike Lister]

36 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Good advice.

I got advice and the advice was that I dont need to lodge a tax return because I dont have to pay any income taxes.

I posted that on AN - because several others kept saying we must lodge a return no matter what (because they do).

Advice given and posted - and in the end it is up to you what you do.  

Not really! Several others keep saying that because that's how we interpret what is written in Thai tax law, what is said by Big 4 and what is said by Thai law firms, all of which have not yet been successfully challenged by anyone, apart from your third hand account from an anonymous Thai accountant.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

Just to finish off for the day and in response to many posts about the issue - Do we retired/married Expats need to file a tax return??

 

I have received something from another tax agent/company with integrity that puts some more 'light' on the matter and definitely means do not lodge a tax return.  He sent me this quote from an online website in February 2023.

• If you were resident in Thailand for 2022 (i.e., you were physically here for 180 days or more in 2022), and you have assessable income over THB 60,000 or THB 120,000 (depending on the type of income),
  please ensure that your Personal Income Tax Return (PND 90 or PND 91) is completed and submitted to the Thai Revenue Department (TRD) by 31 March 2023 (or by 10 April 2023 if you are to make the submission via the internet).

Taxing Times Thailand February 2023 Issue – PKF Thailand

 

The point he made was that NOTHING has changed - UNLESS you are someone that has been bringing into Thailand money from overseas and claiming a tax exemption under the old rule that said if over 12 months OSeas then no tax payable.  He advised that nothing else has changed and that the vast majority of Expats should carry on as they were before 2022 during 2022 and after 2022.  

 

He also stated that there are a LOT of unethical tax agents/lawyer who have been using the change to scare Expats into lodging tax returns - and obviously with a DTA involved that would mean they get paid.  I had advised him of the 70K-90K quotes I got (because of a DTA filing) and he said that was an absolute rip-off, and he guaranteed that if I ever paid them that much, that they would be coming after me every tax year. And the TRD would be expecting a tax return every year going forward too. 

 

His advice on all this was that nothing has changed and that IHO the best thing was to stay under the radar and see how things go moving forward. He said TRD are putting things together for release by the end of the year, but that Expats do not figure much at all in their issues. Whatever is released is likely to include something about Expats, and it could be that they are given the same 'benefits' that are given to Expats in other SEAsian countries, or it could be that they do want our money - but either way we will know.

 

He also advised that all 'experts' are telling TRD that if they do implement a global taxation system, the negative economic impacts on Thailand will be massive and is definitely the wrong thing to do. In fact they are being requested to withdraw that statement by TRD, because it is already causing people to think again about investing in Thailand if their Expat workers are going to be globally taxed. He said that most Expats who do make good money overseas (many like him are based in Singapore or Hong Kong etc) would probably not live full-time in Thailand if they did that (including himself).

[NoDisplayName]

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Not really! Several others keep saying that because that's how we interpret what is written in Thai tax law, what is said by Big 4 and what is said by Thai law firms, all of which have not yet been successfully challenged by anyone, apart from your third hand account from an anonymous Thai accountant.

 

Not just an anonymous accountant; many first hand accounts from posters being advised by tax office officials that no filing is required if no tax due.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

And they are downright antagonistic towards Thailand ever since they announced that they will be moving to a global taxation system for tax residents, and will be taxing all their incomes earned overseas, whether remitted into Thailand or not. 

Thailand has NOT announced a change to a global taxation system. That possibility has been and is being discussed, true, but is needs a change in law to come into effect. The decision to close the loophole on taxation of all income remitted into Thailand earned post 1/1/2024 was a revenue department change in interpretation and required no change in legislation.

 

If there is going to be a change to a global taxation on income remitted or not is a totally different case and is unlikely to occur soon, if ever.

[KhunHeineken]

16 hours ago, atpeace said:

Life is about probabilities and the probability of me paying a dime in taxes is nearly zero in my estimation. 

Life is also about "change."  Things out of our control "change."  Time brings "change."  Nothing stays the same forever. 

 

What's that saying about certainty and "death and taxes?" 

 

The "probability of not paying a dime in tax" as you put it is changing to the very real "possibility" that you will have to pay tax here in the future. 

[Raindancer]

1 hour ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Good advice.

I got advice and the advice was that I dont need to lodge a tax return because I dont have to pay any income taxes.

I posted that on AN - because several others kept saying we must lodge a return no matter what (because they do).

Advice given and posted - and in the end it is up to you what you do.  

May I just ask for clarification  on your statement that you don't have to lodge a tax return because you don't have to pay any Thai income tax 

 

Is that because:

1.   You don't have assessable income over 220000 baht  (married couple)?  ..or

 

2.  You do have assessable income over 220000 baht pa, but your income is lower than the current personal allowances?   (married couple etc, over 65 and pension  allowances etc) including the first 150000 that is exempt from income tax?

 

I'm not asking you to go into detail.  But a yes or no to either question would be helpful to understand.

Many thanks.

 

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Not just an anonymous accountant; many first hand accounts from posters being advised by tax office officials that no filing is required if no tax due.

 

We've been round that unproductive and inconclusive loop already. no different from random bank clerks saying you can't open a bank account.

[Klonko]

2 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Yes and No.  It is up to you of course, and there is an upside to lodging. BUT there are many downsides too - and IMO for the next 1-2 years all Expats should avoid raising their head above the rampart, unless they have to pay income taxes - just in case. 

If you are one small fish among many in the pond, you are likely not to be targeted and my view would also be not to file tax returns if no taxes are payable. But if you are remitting millions from savings or against DTA tax credits, I would deliberately show tax assessable income and file tax returns in order to ensure that I will never have to document such remittances after nine years. I may even deliberately not reclaim withholding tax on bank interest and end up with an additional small tax payable. Leaving  5 digit THB on the table for TRD may be the better strategy than paying 0 tax.

[jwest10]

1 hour ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Not just an anonymous accountant; many first hand accounts from posters being advised by tax office officials that no filing is required if no tax due.

 

Precisely  and have been in contact with my local tax ofiice and do not know what forms are involved and advised not to do anything but forms updated later on in the year and there is supposed to be a personal allpwances form but again my local tax office do not know what forms and just hang fire as no income tax is due.

 

[Mike Lister]

It's interesting that when somebody allegedly emails an anonymous tax accountant and gets a slightly unique but favorable response, everyone gets instantly excited and finds the information as completely credible and correct.

 

Yet when a Big 4 firm such as PWC, or smaller highly regarded firms such as Mazars or Sherings say nothing to corroborate the above, nobody thinks that's odd or suspicious.

 

Confirmation bias appears rampant today.

[jwest10]

14 minutes ago, Klonko said:

If you are one small fish among many in the pond, you are likely not to be targeted and my view would also be not to file tax returns if no taxes are payable. But if you are remitting millions from savings or against DTA tax credits, I would deliberately show tax assessable income and file tax returns in order to ensure that I will never have to document such remittances after nine years. I may even deliberately not reclaim withholding tax on bank interest or end up with a small tax payable. Leaving a few THBk on the table for TRD may be the better strategy than paying 0 tax.

Yes, agree but in any country, they never go after the very rich and often they bribe their way through and this is a fact!!! 

 

[Mike Lister]

I agree with what @Klonko wrote, I that the chances of small fish running into difficulty with the TRD is quite small. One problem here however is the random nature of things which can cause collateral damage. Another is the anti-foreigner sentiment in some quarters which may be a catalyst for some random TRD employee to be vindictive.

 

Let me say something finally that really shouldn't need saying: I will be ecstatic if a reliable authoritative source, (Big 4, Sherings, Mazars or similar) was to put in writing that my interpretation is wrong and breaching the assessible income threshold alone, is not sufficient cause to file a return. It would mean we have a reliable answer that almost everyone could hang their hat on with confidence, rather than just piecemeal anecdotes. As things stand, we don't have that reliability and all the written evidence points in the other direction. 

 

Break time....blast away.

[topt]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

There is no time limit, the Pattaya Mail subsequently acknowledged their error.

Yet the article, now with today's date, has not corrected that error.........

And I cannot see a correction anywhere else although that doesn't mean its not there somewhere.

[Mike Lister]

12 minutes ago, topt said:

Yet the article, now with today's date, has not corrected that error.........

And I cannot see a correction anywhere else although that doesn't mean its not there somewhere.

Interesting, thanks. I haven't seen the correction but it was reported here that it had been withdrawn. Let me see what I can find out.

 

EDIT: I emailed Victor, the author, let's see if he replies.

[Yumthai]

58 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I will be ecstatic if a reliable authoritative source, (Big 4, Sherings, Mazars or similar) was to put in writing that my interpretation is wrong and breaching the assessible income threshold alone, is not sufficient cause to file a return.

The one and only authoritative source in Thailand is the zealous random official behind the desk who may bend the Law at his/her discretion.

 

People who need reliability and certainty in their lives have eventually to understand that Thailand is not for them. Strictly complying with the rules here is not bulletproof and will not save them.

 

[stat]

14 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

In this part of the evil plot, tax consultancies are complicit in the subterfuge, in order to maximise their revenue? "We won't tell the punters that they don't really need to file, instead, we'll take their 7.5k/10k in fees, because the law says we'd be OK to do so. Later, when they find out they've been shafted, we can claim the moral high ground for being technically correct"?

 

This is all very plausible of course, except it achieves the exact opposite of what the TRD wants. TRD, allegedly, doesn't want lots of nil returns clogging up their systems and lots of enquiring farangs descending on their offices, all jabbering away in foreign tongue's and upsetting TRD's natural equilibrium, because there's nothing in it for them. Hmmm, tricky this! Should TRD come clean and damage tax consultancy revenue income streams and risk losing face with Joe Public, or stay schtum? 

 

I think if I was head of TRD, I'd want nirvana to be where I held a tax record on everyone in the country. Perfection would be, everyone telling me once a year, how much money they did or didn't make that was taxable. At that point, TRD is doing the best job possible and is maximising the tax take, under current rules. If that's their mentality, TRD is also following the law, just like the tax consultancies. In fact, the only people who aren't following the law are those who think "it's a stupid idea" to file a nil return! This reminds me of always looking left, right then left again, before crossing the road. Whatever is the point of doing that when there's no traffic coming!

 

Stay tuned for subsequent installments.

Maybe TRD wants lot of tax declaration even when zero taxes have to be paid. TRD bigwigs can then hire new people. The more people they command, the more important they are. Immigration is another example where things get complicated to the absurd in order to justify more people working in immigration.

 

In the end we both do not know.

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, topt said:

Yet the article, now with today's date, has not corrected that error.........

And I cannot see a correction anywhere else although that doesn't mean its not there somewhere.

Response received to my email.

 

It seems my statement in the article might have inadvertently included an incorrect deadline of December 31, 2024. I appreciate your diligence in seeking clarification, and I will take steps to correct this information in my future communications and potentially request a correction in the Pattaya Mail to ensure accurate and reliable information is provided to all readers.

[stat]

3 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Life is also about "change."  Things out of our control "change."  Time brings "change."  Nothing stays the same forever. 

 

What's that saying about certainty and "death and taxes?" 

 

The "probability of not paying a dime in tax" as you put it is changing to the very real "possibility" that you will have to pay tax here in the future. 

Everyone is paying taxes already in the form of vat and other taxes.

[KhunHeineken]

2 minutes ago, stat said:

Everyone is paying taxes already in the form of vat and other taxes.

Like I said, "death and taxes." 

 

The member seems to think these Thai tax/s are flying pigs, but I don't dismiss it so easily. 

[stat]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

It's interesting that when somebody allegedly emails an anonymous tax accountant and gets a slightly unique but favorable response, everyone gets instantly excited and finds the information as completely credible and correct.

 

Yet when a Big 4 firm such as PWC, or smaller highly regarded firms such as Mazars or Sherings say nothing to corroborate the above, nobody thinks that's odd or suspicious.

 

Confirmation bias appears rampant today.

Tax consultancies can never be cought on the wrong side of the law, so they will always tell you "does not work; it not allowed, you must file" etc. The key question to ask is what would you do if you were in my shoes?

 

I agree with you however there is a risk in not filling but apparently the draconian fine of 2000 Baht is the max you could get if I am not mistaken. So it would make perfect sense (current knowledge) to not file. For 2000 Baht I would work half an hour 😉

 

BTW: Confirmation bias works in both ways, me included.

 

As long as ww taxation (without remittance to TH) is off the table I think for people who can structure their remittance and send money from pre 2024 all is swell.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, stat said:

Tax consultancies can never be cought on the wrong side of the law, so they will always tell you "does not work; it not allowed, you must file" etc. The key question to ask is what would you do if you were in my shoes?

 

I agree with you however there is a risk in not filling but apparently the draconian fine of 2000 Baht is the max you could get if I am not mistaken. So it would make perfect sense (current knowledge) to not file. For 2000 Baht I would work half an hour 😉

 

BTW: Confirmation bias works in both ways, me included.

And expose yourself to 10 years of back audit instead of three! I don't know why anyone would, unless they have filed every year for the past 10 and have all the associated paperwork to hand.

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, stat said:

 

 

BTW: Confirmation bias works in both ways, me included.

For my part there is no confirmation bias, only evidence based bias.

[stat]

9 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

For my part there is no confirmation bias, only evidence based bias.

If you think that you do not have confirmation bias then you have not understood the concept. Every human being has a confirmation bias (me included of course)

 

"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."

 

Tolstoy

 

NB: You would be the intelligent man in this analogy

[stat]

9 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

And expose yourself to 10 years of back audit instead of three! I don't know why anyone would, unless they have filed every year for the past 10 and have all the associated paperwork to hand.

Valid point, that is a plus for filing. However you increase the risk of being audited in the 3 years and you would have to spend a great amount of time and money on filing.

 

[Mike Lister]

6 minutes ago, stat said:

If you think that you do not have confirmation bias then you have not understood the concept. Every human being has a confirmation bias (me included of course)

 

"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."

 

Tolstoy

 

NB: You would be the intelligent man in this analogy

On the subject we are/were discussing, I have no confirmation bias, only evidence based biased. 

 

Goodbye.

[stat]

14 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

On the subject we are/were discussing, I have no confirmation bias, only evidence based biased. 

 

Goodbye.

There is no such thing as evidence based bias... Because if your finding is based only on evidence it is not biased.

[4MyEgo]

So I managed to transfer a couple of years worth of my monthly living expenses into my Thai Bank account prior to 31 December 2023, which should last me for 2 years.

 

From what I can gather is, if I don't transfer any money into my account from here on, I don't need to lodge a tax return right or pay tax ?

 

Just prior to my monthly living expenses running out in 2 years, now say 18 months, I am due for an overseas trip back to my homeland, and as I am taking the family, I am figuring that if I withdraw and give each person the maximum allowed under the threshold of my home country without having to declare it when I return to Thailand, I stand a good chance of not having to pay tax on it as well ?

 

I believe the maximum allowed into Thailand is about $20k USD per person ?

 

Does anyone see a problem with me bringing in an amount under the allowable amount into Thailand, e.g. 20k baht for me, same for wife and same for a couple of kids.

 

I also heard on the grapevine that using a foreign debit or credit card in Thailand does not constitute a remittance.

 

Obviously I am looking at avoiding or minimizing paying any tax legally while living in Thailand, after all, I don't get anything for it, e.g. I spend about a million a year so I contribute to the Thai economy, no free hospital cover, double charges for most National Parks etc etc.

[JimGant]

42 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

And expose yourself to 10 years of back audit instead of three!

Your fearmongering is unwarranted. If you have no taxable income, but you file a nil tax return, you're now on the TRD radar as a tax resident -- at least for the tax year of filing. Otherwise, they don't know if you're a tax resident, or ever have been. And, once you're on their radar screen as a tax resident -- because you filed a nil tax return -- well, you've now entered their "people of interest" data base. No thanks.

 

And I doubt that they have all the Thai banks report the names of all those with "exceptionally large" remittances. But, if they do -- for that year I sent a huge bundle for a new house -- I could survive a sit down to show it came from my savings account. Doubtful they would want to audit another 9 years of my remittances, if no bank reports of exceptionally large remittances were in evidence.

 

Anyway, this discussion is getting stale. Do what you're comfortable with. Analyze all the probabilities, particularly that TRD even knows that you're a tax resident, and that your remittances are even assessable income. And, in particular, don't let anyone suggest you're a "bad person," and that you're heading for ten years of back audits. Geez!

[geisha]

One of my family members is close to deciding on a care home in Thailand. 
Now he has read that the amount he would need monthly to pay his costs is around 2500£ +  with which he is fine, but knowing that he will pay tax on this will probably change his mind. I don’t know how much tax this would be on around 30 000£,  ( excluding visa costs and health insurance). 
Will he cancel his plans, or , as I suggested, stay just under 6 months, but which means keeping his home in the UK.  He’s waiting for concrete figures. I know he would not transfer his economies to Thailand as he’s very careful with money. So it would be transferring funds when needed.,

How can he get an estimate, or is it too soon ? Thanks.