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Posted

Using foreign credit cards abroad and buying tickets from foreign airlines:

( I know we don't know the rules, I know they will probably never find out - but what are the rules under the British system of remittance taxation for non-doms?)

 

1. Buying goods and services from abroad when I myself am physically abroad, and paying for them with a foreign credit card. That should be tax free, even in a year I am a tax resident in Thailand? 

 

Example: I buy a sex doll in Shanghai, paid with my Chinese credit card, during my visit to China.

I don't bring the sex doll to Thailand (it's illegal, and no need anyway).

 

2. If I use said services (that I bought abroad and paid with my foreign credit card) at the time I am in Thailand, that should count as a remittance, right?

 

Example: I don't buy a sex doll, I buy a subscription of the "MAGAzine" and I watch it when I am in Thailand. Or I buy an airline ticket with CAL to or from BKK, during my trip to China.

 

3. All tickets I buy from TG are remittances,  right? Never mind I am abroad when I buy them, and never mind how I pay. 

 

Practical consequences in my everyday life:

- I might use different foreign credit cards when I am in Thailand and when I am abroad. Just to keep records separated. 

- I will not pay for other people's (e.g. non-resident relatives) connecting flights through Bangkok with my credit card, let them pay themselves.

- Never fly TG or buy a ticket for other people from TG using my own (albeit foreign) credit card,  no matter where I am at the time of purchase. 

  • Confused 1
Posted
On 7/20/2024 at 10:06 AM, jonwilly said:

friend has informed me yesterdat that it is now nessary to have a Tgai tax I.D. to open a bank account with Bangkok Bank.

john

I'm pretty sure that an agent would still be able to 'assist'  

Posted
19 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

There are links provided in that post of mine - perhaps you missed them.  Those quotes are from those websites.

 

I would also point out something else - DTAs are not just Double Tax Agreements to avoid double taxation.

 

The full name of the Thailand-Australia Agreement is " an Agreement for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with Respect to Taxes on Income,"

australia : article 1-5 | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th)

 

DTAs cover not only provisions to ensure the double application of taxation on incomes, but they also provide for taxation exemptions, reductions and allowances by tax residents and Citizens/Nationals of each country. However, as stated by several members besides myself, TRD Officers are not overall very aware of this fact and most believe DTAs only mean Foreigners can only get tax credits on the income taxes paid already in their home country. 

 

Can you show me where in the DTA between Australia and Thailand is says "Thailand has no authority to collect tax?" 

 

Here's the DTA.

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/australia_e.pdf

 

Article 1:  "Personal Scope" - This agreement shall apply to persons who are residents of one or both of the contracting states.

 

Article 2:  "Taxes Covered" - 1) The existing taxes to which this agreement applies are: a) in the case of Thailand - 1) income tax. 

                                                                                                                                                  b) in the case of Australia - 1) income tax.

 

Etc, Etc, Etc. 

 

It appears to me the DTA between Australia and Thailand DOES give authority for Thailand to collect tax. 

Posted
On 7/20/2024 at 3:06 AM, jonwilly said:

A friend has informed me yesterdat that it is now nessary to have a Tgai tax I.D. to open a bank account with Bangkok Bank.

john

They are starting to connect all the dots. 

 

I would not be surprised if current bank account holders are given notice that they have to supply a tax number before a certain date, similar to the way we had to register sim cards. 

 

Failure to supply the tax number before the date will most likely see the account frozen until a tax number is supplied.  

  • Like 2
Posted
32 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Can you show me where in the DTA between Australia and Thailand is says "Thailand has no authority to collect tax?" 

Here's the DTA.

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/australia_e.pdf

Article 1:  "Personal Scope" - This agreement shall apply to persons who are residents of one or both of the contracting states.

Article 2:  "Taxes Covered" - 1) The existing taxes to which this agreement applies are: a) in the case of Thailand - 1) income tax. 

                                                                                                                                                 b) in the case of Australia - 1) income tax.

Etc, Etc, Etc. 

It appears to me the DTA between Australia and Thailand DOES give authority for Thailand to collect tax. 

I am not sure what you mean - of course Thailand can collect income taxes from tax residents - Australian or otherwise.

DTAs provides provisions for conditions, exemptions and allowances for the collection of income taxes between Thailand and Australia.

Here is the 'proper' Thai-Aust DTA - I suggest you start reading at the start and dont stop until the finish.

australia : article 1-5 | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th)

 

  • Like 1
Posted
19 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Thailand is not prepared for all the complications involved in taxing income from overseas - especially for foreigners - and that is why they let it go in the past so to speak.  Now they have suddenly and out of the blue, both removed the 12 month tax exemption and also stated that all Foreigners must pay PIT income taxes on their foreign earnings brought into Thailand when it was never enforced before. The fact is that was always technically the case - the rule change meant nothing - but they are desperate to increase the tax base and they have just gone ahead and done it, with no idea what that entails and all the problems involved.

I tend to agree.  It will be chaos.  However, they either have something up their sleeve, or, as I have said, it might be like the Certificate of Residence that should be free, but we all pay 300 baht for. 

 

It may be possible that to get a tax clearance certificate, or similar, you just pay 300, 500, 1000 baht, or whatever, to the TRD, and you are good to go.  It may simply be just another backhander foreigners have to pay, and we know the money goes up the ladder.  Who knows?  

 

Of course, for high net worth individuals, or tax evaders, or criminals, they can apply this law as it would be well worth it for them to do so. 

 

We will all get to see how this unfolds early 2025, but I just can't see an announcement from the Thai government early 2025 that the whole policy has been scrapped and it all goes away. 

  • Thanks 1
Posted
16 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

am not sure what you mean - of course Thailand can collect income taxes from tax residents - Australian or otherwise.

Yes, that's right.  You have contradicted yourself. 

 

This is from your previous post.

 

"Furthermore, for income that is exempt from tax in Thailand according to a Double Tax Treaty (“DTA”) - or if the DTA specifies the other contracting states (foreign countries) that are designated as the tax collectors and Thailand has no authority to collect tax according to the DTA - if such income is brought into Thailand in the case mentioned above, the Revenue Department has not yet issued clear criteria or guidelines to determine whether or not such income is subject to tax according to Section 41, paragraph two of the Revenue Code."

 

See where it says, "Thailand has no authority to collect tax according to the DTA?"  You posted it, not me.

 

I have linked the DTA between Australia and Thailand.  Can you show me where it says "Thailand has no authority to collect tax according to the DTA?"

 

16 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Here is the 'proper' Thai-Aust DTA - I suggest you start reading at the start and dont stop until the finish.

The one I posted is worded the same. 

 

Here's the Australian one from the treasury department.  It's also worded the same. 

 

https://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/dfat/treaties/1989/36.html

 

From the treasury department.

 

https://treasury.gov.au/tax-treaties/income-tax-treaties

 

I have read it, have you? 

 

Where does it say "Thailand has no authority to collect tax according to the DTA?" 

 

 

 

Posted
On 7/20/2024 at 12:25 PM, Mike Lister said:

You have nothing to be concerned about, your calculations are correct and you have plenty of room to spare.

 

 

 

And @AdamWest1974 might, of course, have even more wriggle room than 10k if his planned 450k transfer(s) for this year include both assessable (e.g. State and company pensions) and non-assessable (e.g. Government pensions and income earned before 1/1/24) items!

Posted
On 7/19/2024 at 11:14 PM, CharlieKo said:

 

I think it really depends. As a UK citizen All I get is my state pension. But I do have quite a lot of savings in a UK bank. HMRC have told me that as a non resident they will not tax the interest I get on those savings. Indeed the bank do not deduct tax on the interest.

 

To avoid double taxation you may need to apply for non resident status as far as UK taxes are concerned. Which then means any taxes due on dividends would be paid to the Thai Revenue Department. Besides that if you did have to pay UK taxes, you would be able to show a letter from HMRC stating how much tax was due. 

 

It would mean jumping through hoops which is a pain. But is doable if approached right. 

 

The following link sets out the hoops which would need to be jumped through in the case of us Brits:

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/claim-personal-allowances-and-tax-refunds-if-you-live-abroad#information-youll-need-to-claim

 

Posted
1 hour ago, KhunHeineken said:

They are starting to connect all the dots. 

 

I would not be surprised if current bank account holders are given notice that they have to supply a tax number before a certain date, similar to the way we had to register sim cards. 

 

Failure to supply the tax number before the date will most likely see the account frozen until a tax number is supplied.  

I would be as if the foreign bank account holder does not stay 180 days then he does not need a TIN...........

 

Could it happen, of course. But like clearance certificates for all it seems unlikely in the near future.

  • Like 1
Posted
49 minutes ago, topt said:

I would be as if the foreign bank account holder does not stay 180 days then he does not need a TIN...........

I'm Australian.  In Australia, if you do not give your bank your Tax File Number (TFN) the bank taxes any interest at the highest marginal rate. 

 

I am sure other countries have a similar system, yet here you are saying Thailand will not implement something similar? 

 

Also, my bank occasionally asks me to declare my resident status.

 

52 minutes ago, topt said:

Could it happen, of course.

Glad we sorted that out then.  :smile:

 

53 minutes ago, topt said:

But like clearance certificates for all it seems unlikely in the near future.

Why is that?  It's their easiest way of enforcement.  It brings the foreign tax payer to them, so no chasing. 

 

You already have to provide documents by way of a bank statement/s.  Add one more document to the list.  Even better for them if you have to pay for the document even if you don't have to pay any tax.  Just another little earner for them, either legit or otherwise, like the Certificate of Residence.    

  • Thanks 1
Posted
42 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Yes, that's right.  You have contradicted yourself. 

This is from your previous post.

"Furthermore, for income that is exempt from tax in Thailand according to a Double Tax Treaty (“DTA”) - or if the DTA specifies the other contracting states (foreign countries) that are designated as the tax collectors and Thailand has no authority to collect tax according to the DTA - if such income is brought into Thailand in the case mentioned above, the Revenue Department has not yet issued clear criteria or guidelines to determine whether or not such income is subject to tax according to Section 41, paragraph two of the Revenue Code."

 

I see that perhaps I could have written that better - the point was that under the DTA, Thailand (or Australia) is not able to apply income taxes to certain income - meaning that it is exempt from taxation.  Mate - the DTA exemptions opens up a whole can of worms that the vast majority of people have no idea about, and certainly not TRD either.

 

Just one example - in Australia the sale of a person's main house is not subject to income taxes in Aust - but in Thailand it is. IMO under the DTA Australians have an exemption from this income/money being taxed by Thailand. Likewise, an inheritance is not taxable in either Thailand or Australia (up to a certain amount), but it is taxable in other countries and their DTAs deal with that. And on and on and on it goes. How will it all pan out for TRD dealing with all those variations and complexities across 61 countries that they have DTAs with??  Who knows.   Number one plan for me is to (legally) avoid dealing with TRD for a few years, while they .....  A. screw it all up completely    B. Work things out and get it all sorted   C. Change everything 2-3 times and then reverse it all back again.  My bet is on A and/or C.  I reckon there will be a Land Bride, a F1 Race Track, and Thailand will be the Financial Hub of SEAsia - all before they sort out all their tax issues and problems if/when they move to a global tax system - this residential based system is going to take a while to sort out. 

 

  • Confused 1
  • Agree 1
Posted
1 hour ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I see that perhaps I could have written that better - the point was that under the DTA, Thailand (or Australia) is not able to apply income taxes to certain income - meaning that it is exempt from taxation.  Mate - the DTA exemptions opens up a whole can of worms that the vast majority of people have no idea about, and certainly not TRD either.

 

Just one example - in Australia the sale of a person's main house is not subject to income taxes in Aust - but in Thailand it is. IMO under the DTA Australians have an exemption from this income/money being taxed by Thailand. Likewise, an inheritance is not taxable in either Thailand or Australia (up to a certain amount), but it is taxable in other countries and their DTAs deal with that. And on and on and on it goes. How will it all pan out for TRD dealing with all those variations and complexities across 61 countries that they have DTAs with??  Who knows.   Number one plan for me is to (legally) avoid dealing with TRD for a few years, while they .....  A. screw it all up completely    B. Work things out and get it all sorted   C. Change everything 2-3 times and then reverse it all back again.  My bet is on A and/or C.  I reckon there will be a Land Bride, a F1 Race Track, and Thailand will be the Financial Hub of SEAsia - all before they sort out all their tax issues and problems if/when they move to a global tax system - this residential based system is going to take a while to sort out. 

 

Firstly, you have to live in that "main house" for 12 months, otherwise, any capital gain can be taxed.

 

I have never suggested it's not going to be chaos.  I have never suggested this is a well thought out and well planned policy.  I have never suggested the TRD has been recruiting and training staff to gear up for this. 

 

What I have suggested is the Thai's won't miss a chance to turn a baht out of it.  It could be as simple as paying 500 baht for a TRD document for your extension, much in the way you pay 300 baht for a Certificate of Residence, even though they are free. 

 

It could also be showing the TRD a balance sheet from your bank showing total money deposited and that's what you pay in tax. 

 

I don't know what January to March 2025 is going to look like, and neither do you, but I can't see the Thai's missing out on their chance for more MONEY from farang, especially when this is a global tax. 

 

I'll ask you the same question I asked another member.  Say this does all just go away, how do you think the Thai's will withdraw from it? 

  • Like 1
  • Thumbs Up 1
Posted
2 hours ago, stat said:

Lots of options to withdraw:

 

  1. All just a missunderstanding
  2. Change of PM
  3. Changes will not be enforced
  4. Exception for expats
  5. Postponement to 2121 (remember the bridge to Koh Samui, the metro in Pattaya, the 300 Baht tourist tax?)
  6. Military coup
  7. No explanation and quietly dropped
  8. etc

I do not care how they  withdraw just that they do 😉
😉

All possible, but are they probable? 

 

I could address each of your 8 points, but how relevant are they? 

 

You have to remember, MONEY, MONEY, MONEY is there for the taking, in one way or another, and farang are soooooooo easy targets. 

 

Have you ever known Thai's to walk away from easy MONEY? 

Posted
4 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

Bearing in mind an Expat bringing in 1Million THB of already taxed income (e.g. Pension) from the UK is liable to a max of 1,000B  (One Thousand Baht) tax for the year.

  • 1Million THB = approx. £21,300
  • UK Tax on £21,300 .= approx.  £1,750 = approx. 82,000 THB Tax already paid
  • Thai tax on 1,000,000 after minimum TEDAs = approx. 83,000 THB

... I just can't see see how Thailand won't lose Money (from Expats) by introducing this as it will drive people to:-

  1. Not remit as much money & find ways of reducing their spends in Thailand (e.g. have more holidays outside of Thailand)
  2. Not make any large purchases (Condos cars etc...) 
  3. Spend <180 days per year here.
  4. Choose somewhere else to live.

Really?  Paying THB 1K a year is going to have people going elsewhere?

 

PH

  • Thumbs Up 2
Posted
51 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

Really?  Paying THB 1K a year is going to have people going elsewhere?

 

PH

 

TBH I'm unsure of my maths now as I used this site https://ata-outsourcing.com/calculate-your-personal-income-tax/ which says that if you have an income of 84,000 pm you'll pay 6,900 THB tax which comes out at 82,800 

 

But if I do it myself using the published tax bands then I come up with 

  • 60K @ 0% = 0 (Personal Allowance)
  • 150K @ 0% = 0
  • 150K @5% = 7,500
  • 200K @ 10% = 20,000 
  • 250K @ 15% =  37,500
  • 190K @ 20% = 38,000

... Total of 103,000 THB  - So it might be you owe 21K pa if you've already paid UK Tax on the 1Million remitted. 

 

Obviously if you have additional allowances (e.g. Wife, Kids, >65, Health Insurance etc...) then the number comes down. 

  • Like 1

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