Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[Tony M]

39 minutes ago, topt said:

No.

The DTA digest clearly shows that the state pension is not included in the DTA - as has been discussed ad nauseum in tax threads for the last 9 months.......

Page 34 Thailand see note 4 on the far right

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/710099/DT_Digest_April_2018.pdf

 

As the previous poster mentioned whether they would bother is another story.

 

You are probably right, but T&G seems to be of the opinion that :
 

Part C – Article 25 – Non-Discrimination

https://www.rd.go.th/english/855.html#article25 

Nationals of a Contracting State shall not be subjected in the other contracting State to any taxation or any requirement connected therewith, which is other or more burdensome than the taxation and connected requirements to which nationals of that other State in the same circumstances are or may be subjected. This provision shall, notwithstanding the provisions of Article 1, also apply to persons who are not residents of one or both of the Contracting States.

 

Under that Clause above, Australian Citizens are entitled to the same taxation ‘rules and requirements’ as that which is applied to the Citizens of Thailand.

Thailand does not tax the Aged Pension of its Citizens that receive their ‘Aged Pension’, and therefore under this Clause they cannot tax the Aged Pensions of Australian Nationals.

 

And the UK DTA has the same/similar wording ?   I'm not arguing with you, but with the logic of the non-discrimination Article 24 of the UK DTA and the ad nauseum tax threads for the past 9 months.  It is a forum, after all.  That said, I give up, and will wait for further clarification, if any.

[stat]

I read a lot of talk about pensions in this thread. I hope you are all aware that if you do not remit your pension at all to TH then you should not have to pay any PIT IMHO. I am aware that TH has in a lot of cases the right to tax as in the Thai German DTA for example but they never asked and never taxed any German state penion AFAIK. Maybe this will change in 2024 but so far I have heard nothing about it. If by any means you have any savings, transfer the savings or get a loan by a relative.  All should be good as long as you do not transmit your pension to TH.

[Lorry]

38 minutes ago, stat said:

I read a lot of talk about pensions in this thread. I hope you are all aware that if you do not remit your pension at all to TH then you should not have to pay any PIT IMHO. I am aware that TH has in a lot of cases the right to tax as in the Thai German DTA for example but they never asked and never taxed any German state penion AFAIK. Maybe this will change in 2024 but so far I have heard nothing about it. If by any means you have any savings, transfer the savings or get a loan by a relative.  All should be good as long as you do not transmit your pension to TH.

Correct. 

But some people use the income method for their retirement visa and remit 65k every month. 

Of course, they should have started (from Jan 1, 2024) to remit 65k from old savings (as long as they still have savings abroad) and put the pensions into another account. 

First use up all savings from before 2024, before you remit any income. 

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, Tony M said:

Thailand does not tax the Aged Pension of its Citizens that receive their ‘Aged Pension’, and therefore under this Clause they cannot tax the Aged Pensions of Australian Nationals.

 

They would likely claim tax burden is the same.  Domestic aged pensions not taxed, foreign aged pension taxed.   Thai nationals would be taxed on their UK aged pension, if they had one.  UK'ers would not be taxed on their Thai aged pension, had they one.

[Lorry]

2 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

Thai nationals would be taxed on their UK aged pension, if they had one. 

Quite a few widows of foreigners receive Western pensions. 

A lady I know,  whose husband died yesterday, will get about 2000 USD monthly. 

I have no idea whether these Thais pay taxes. 

[Klonko]

45 minutes ago, Lorry said:

Quite a few widows of foreigners receive Western pensions. 

A lady I know,  whose husband died yesterday, will get about 2000 USD monthly. 

I have no idea whether these Thais pay taxes. 

While we currently live off my savings, my wife will get pension entitlements well in excess of our current living expenses and I strongly recommend filing and paying taxes, because sooner or later TRD will catch up looking 10 years back. I would not rely on presumptive past lack of enforcement. Unfortunately, it is not feasible for my wife to have an offshore account. From a tax point of view, a late decease is beneficial. Fortunately I am still healthy.

[motdaeng]

5 hours ago, Lorry said:

Quite a few widows of foreigners receive Western pensions. 

A lady I know,  whose husband died yesterday, will get about 2000 USD monthly. 

I have no idea whether these Thais pay taxes. 

 

the same tax laws apply to thais as to us foreigners. this lady has to pay taxes for her pension ...

[Tony M]

My current tax advisor (also known as ChatGPT) has clarified the situation to me, and says:

 

Me:

I am a UK citizen who is tax resident in Thailand. The Double Taxation Agreement between UK and Thailand says: Part C – Article 25 – Non-Discrimination Nationals of a Contracting State shall not be subjected in the other contracting State to any taxation or any requirement connected therewith, which is other or more burdensome than the taxation and connected requirements to which nationals of that other State in the same circumstances are or may be subjected. This provision shall, notwithstanding the provisions of Article 1, also apply to persons who are not residents of one or both of the Contracting States. Thai citizens are not taxed on their aged pension. Do I, as a tax resident resident in Thailand have to pay tax on my UK aged pension transferred into Thailand each month ?

 

ChatGPT

Under the Double Taxation Agreement (DTA) between the UK and Thailand, the non-discrimination clause in Article 25 provides that nationals of one Contracting State should not be subjected to more burdensome taxation in the other Contracting State than that imposed on its own nationals in similar circumstances. However, there are additional details to consider in your case regarding the taxation of pensions.

1. UK State Pension and Thai Taxation: According to the DTA, pensions may be taxed in the country of residence. In Thailand, personal income tax on pensions from abroad is generally subject to tax. Thailand typically taxes pensions received by its residents, including foreign pensions such as those from the UK.

2. Thai Tax Rules: Under Thai tax law, pensions received from abroad are generally taxable. However, there may be specific provisions or exemptions that could apply, so it’s important to check the latest Thai tax regulations or consult with a local tax advisor for the most accurate advice.

3. Application of Non-Discrimination: The non-discrimination clause ensures you should not be treated less favorably than Thai nationals in similar circumstances. However, this does not necessarily exempt you from paying taxes but rather ensures that you are not taxed more harshly than a Thai national in similar situations.

To summarize, while the non-discrimination clause is a protective measure, it does not typically exempt you from the obligation to pay tax on your UK pension in Thailand. You would likely need to pay tax on your UK pension income in Thailand. It is advisable to consult with a tax professional in Thailand to understand your exact tax liabilities and ensure compliance with local tax laws.

 

 

Me:

Are Thai nationals, tax resident in UK, subject to UK tax on their Thai pensions if the pension payments are transferred to UK ?

 

For Thai nationals who are tax residents in the UK and receive pensions from Thailand, the tax treatment in the UK would generally follow these principles:

1. UK Taxation on Foreign Pensions: In the UK, pensions from foreign sources, including Thai pensions, are typically subject to UK income tax if the individual is a UK tax resident. This means that if a Thai national is a tax resident in the UK, their Thai pension income is likely to be taxed in the UK.

2. Double Taxation Agreement (DTA): The Double Taxation Agreement between the UK and Thailand does not usually provide a specific exemption for pensions paid from one country to another. Instead, it generally allows each country to tax pensions but aims to avoid double taxation. This often means that the pension will be taxed in the country where the recipient resides (in this case, the UK).

3. Tax Credits and Reliefs: To prevent double taxation, the UK tax system might provide relief. For example, the UK tax resident could claim a credit for any tax paid in Thailand on the same pension income, or apply for a tax relief under the terms of the DTA.

4. Thai Tax Considerations: Thai nationals receiving pensions from Thailand might also be subject to Thai tax laws, but this would typically depend on whether they are still considered tax residents of Thailand or if the pension is subject to Thai tax rules even if paid abroad.

In summary, a Thai national who is a tax resident in the UK would generally need to pay UK tax on their Thai pension. The DTA aims to alleviate the risk of double taxation, but specific details and reliefs should be confirmed by consulting a tax professional in the UK.

 

 

Me:

Is there any evidence of Thai nationals, tax resident in UK, having paid UK income tax ?

 

ChatGPT

Yes, there is evidence that Thai nationals who are tax residents in the UK generally do pay UK income tax on their foreign pensions, including those from Thailand. Here’s a breakdown of how this typically works:

1. UK Tax Residency and Global Income: In the UK, tax residents are subject to UK income tax on their worldwide income, including pensions from abroad. This means that Thai nationals who are UK tax residents must report and pay tax on their Thai pensions in the UK.

2. Historical Cases and Guidance: Various sources, including UK tax guidelines and case studies, show that foreign pensions are subject to UK income tax if the recipient is a UK tax resident. The UK tax authority, HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC), provides guidance that confirms this principle.

3. Double Taxation Agreement (DTA) Relief: To address concerns about double taxation, the UK’s DTA with Thailand allows for relief mechanisms. Although the DTA itself does not specifically exempt Thai pensions from UK tax, it aims to ensure that taxpayers do not face double taxation. The individual might be able to claim relief for any Thai tax paid on the same income, but this does not exempt them from paying UK tax on their worldwide income.

4. Examples of Tax Filing: In practice, individuals in this situation typically need to file a UK Self Assessment tax return, declaring their Thai pension income. They would then be taxed on this income according to UK tax rates, and any applicable relief or credit for foreign taxes paid can be claimed.

5. Professional Advice: Many tax professionals in the UK handle cases involving foreign pensions, including those from Thailand, and ensure that clients comply with UK tax obligations while maximizing any available reliefs under the DTA.

For specific cases or additional clarity, it’s always a good idea for individuals to consult with a tax advisor or accountant who can provide tailored advice based on the latest regulations and personal circumstances.

 

 

 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

10 hours ago, Tony M said:

Thailand does not tax the Aged Pension of its Citizens that receive their ‘Aged Pension’, and therefore under this Clause they cannot tax the Aged Pensions of Australian Nationals.

You say or quote the above. However the TRD disagrees with that statement in bold, see section 40 (1) 2

 

that Thailand may pay pensions that are under the threshold to actually pay tax doesn’t mean that hey are not taxable

Edited August 4 by sometimewoodworker

[Tony M]

3 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You say or quote the above. However the TRD disagrees with that statement in bold, see section 40 (1) 2 

I did quote it, but did not say it.  However, if you see my last post, the one above yours, you will see that clarification has moved on.   

[Presnock]

On 8/2/2024 at 3:36 PM, CharlesHolzhauer said:

Since you are an individual residing in Thailand, the onus may be on you to determine whether or not you need to lodge a tax return.

https://www.rd.go.th/english/6045.html

I kind of agree with some of the other people on this forum.  Taxation without representation just doesn't make sense to me.  That was a major situation a couple of hundred years ago for the British colonies in in which birthed the US  of A.  As long a everyone does continue or starts paying taxes somewhere, then that also means to me no paying a "fair share".  That is also one of the stated reasons for 138 countries to sign on to the OECD agreement of 2023.  I guess if the govt does go to a worldwide income taxation it will really affect retirement in this country by foreigners.  It does seem to me that they want all they can get from foreigners but they sure don't seem to want to give us any breaks except for the LTR so far.

Someday maybe they will appreciate the monies that the expats do provide here without getting any benefits.  My opinion only of course but I have paid taxes since I started working as a teenager and haven't missed paying them every year since then.  Good luck to all.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

18 hours ago, Tony M said:

Great info, many thanks.  It will take me weeks to understand it !  I do see your paragraph on non-discrimination (Article 25), and that seems to inly that the AUS aged pension cannot be taxable in Thailand because the Thai "aged pension" is not taxed.  The UK-Thailand DTA seems to echo this :

Article 24 Non-discrimination (1) The nationals of a Contracting State shall not be subjected in the other Contracting State to any taxation or any requirement connected therewith which is other or more burdensome than the taxation and connected requirements to which nationals of that other State in the same circumstances are or may be subjected.

 

Does that mean that the UK state pension is also not taxable in Thailand for the same reason?  I know that I sounds a little "stupid" of me, but that seems to be very clear and I have not seen it mentioned before (although it might have been).

Yes - that IMO is exactly what that Clause means. A UK Citizen who becomes a tax resident in Thailand, cannot (under the DTA) have imposed upon them, any requirements that are not imposed upon the Citizens of Thailand, and must also be offered the same benefits that are made available to the Citizens of Thailand.

 

However - does that mean that Somchai in the local Provincial Office will understand and/or accept that - not necessarily (probably not). And that issue is but one of the hundreds of reasons why Thailand is not in a position to offer fair and reasonable imposition of income taxes on Expat tax residents that are bringing money into Thailand from overseas - both now, but more so if they move to a worldwide taxation system. That is why The Philippines, Malaysia and Indonesia have excluded the income of Expats living in their country if it has been subjected to the taxation system of their home country. UK (and most other countries) do count Pensions as taxable income (for thresholds etc.), but they impose zero or minimal tax rates to those Pension payments. Therefore they have been subjected to the local tax system and are tax free - as opposed to money made from selling drugs and other illegal activities. 

    

[TroubleandGrumpy]

18 hours ago, Tony M said:

 

Can I add this from the UK-Thailand DTA (non-discrimination):

(5) In this Article the term "taxation" means taxes of every kind and description.

 

What are the implications of that statement ?

Sorry - but no. The DTA only applies to 'income taxation'. 

[Phulublub]

1 hour ago, Presnock said:

I kind of agree with some of the other people on this forum.  Taxation without representation just doesn't make sense to me.  That was a major situation a couple of hundred years ago for the British colonies in in which birthed the US  of A.  As long a everyone does continue or starts paying taxes somewhere, then that also means to me no paying a "fair share".  That is also one of the stated reasons for 138 countries to sign on to the OECD agreement of 2023.  I guess if the govt does go to a worldwide income taxation it will really affect retirement in this country by foreigners.  It does seem to me that they want all they can get from foreigners but they sure don't seem to want to give us any breaks except for the LTR so far.

Someday maybe they will appreciate the monies that the expats do provide here without getting any benefits.  My opinion only of course but I have paid taxes since I started working as a teenager and haven't missed paying them every year since then.  Good luck to all.

All UK nationals living in Thailand and paying UK taxes have been taxed without representation for years....

 

PH

[Phulublub]

9 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

UK (and most other countries) do count Pensions as taxable income (for thresholds etc.), but they impose zero or minimal tax rates to those Pension payments. Therefore they have been subjected to the local tax system and are tax free -

How does the UK tax pensions differently from all other income?

 

PH

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

12 hours ago, topt said:

No.

The DTA digest clearly shows that the state pension is not included in the DTA - as has been discussed ad nauseum in tax threads for the last 9 months.......

Page 34 Thailand see note 4 on the far right

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/710099/DT_Digest_April_2018.pdf

As the previous poster mentioned whether they would bother is another story.

I disagree - just because some people say it is so, it does not mean they are correct. Many others, me included, have stated for a long time that IOO that is not the case - but we are drowned. 

 

Should TRD ever state publicly that in their opinion the XYZ Pension of Country ABC is taxable income, then and only then is that the definitely the case (which the other Country's tax office/dept might wish to discuss with TRD. And to my knowledge TRD has not done that, and the matter has not been tested through the Taxation Tribunal/Court either.  If you have something that shows that then please provide, but until then it is subjective opinions - mine and theirs. 

 

The UK Govt has provided general advice and information across a lot of DTAS countries, but until the TRD either confirm or deny that position, it is a matter of subjective opinion. I would point out that words have different meanings in different countries, and who knows how TRD interprets the difference between 'Government Pension' and 'State Pension'. IMO any Pension paid by a Government is a Government Pension - until TRD states that they do not apply that interpretation, then, again, it is subjective opinion.

 

One last point - many tax consultants in Thailand will say 'yes that is taxable income'. 3 reasons they do that (a lot). 1. They get business.  2. There is no regulatory penalties for incorrect/erroneous tax advice in Thailand (unlike UK, Aust, USA etc).  3. In Thailand they do not provide detailed public information and advice and training for both tax 'consultants/accountants' and the public (unlike UK, Aust, USA etc).

[TroubleandGrumpy]

3 hours ago, motdaeng said:

 

the same tax laws apply to thais as to us foreigners. this lady has to pay taxes for her pension ...

Thais do not pay taxes on the Pension payments.  Is this Pension you mention payment any different under Thai tax law - no one knows for sure - TRD have not clarified this particular issue - and hundreds of others.

IMO it could be taxable income - because she is not a Citizen of that other country - unlike Expats receiving Pension payments from their own country which IMO are not taxable income in Thailand - until TRD declares they are. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

2 hours ago, Tony M said:

My current tax advisor (also known as ChatGPT) has clarified the situation to me, and says:

 

Me:

I am a UK citizen who is tax resident in Thailand. The Double Taxation Agreement between UK and Thailand says: Part C – Article 25 – Non-Discrimination Nationals of a Contracting State shall not be subjected in the other contracting State to any taxation or any requirement connected therewith, which is other or more burdensome than the taxation and connected requirements to which nationals of that other State in the same circumstances are or may be subjected. This provision shall, notwithstanding the provisions of Article 1, also apply to persons who are not residents of one or both of the Contracting States. Thai citizens are not taxed on their aged pension. Do I, as a tax resident resident in Thailand have to pay tax on my UK aged pension transferred into Thailand each month ?

 

ChatGPT

Under the Double Taxation Agreement (DTA) between the UK and Thailand, the non-discrimination clause in Article 25 provides that nationals of one Contracting State should not be subjected to more burdensome taxation in the other Contracting State than that imposed on its own nationals in similar circumstances. However, there are additional details to consider in your case regarding the taxation of pensions.

1. UK State Pension and Thai Taxation: According to the DTA, pensions may be taxed in the country of residence. In Thailand, personal income tax on pensions from abroad is generally subject to tax. Thailand typically taxes pensions received by its residents, including foreign pensions such as those from the UK.

2. Thai Tax Rules: Under Thai tax law, pensions received from abroad are generally taxable. However, there may be specific provisions or exemptions that could apply, so it’s important to check the latest Thai tax regulations or consult with a local tax advisor for the most accurate advice.

3. Application of Non-Discrimination: The non-discrimination clause ensures you should not be treated less favorably than Thai nationals in similar circumstances. However, this does not necessarily exempt you from paying taxes but rather ensures that you are not taxed more harshly than a Thai national in similar situations.

To summarize, while the non-discrimination clause is a protective measure, it does not typically exempt you from the obligation to pay tax on your UK pension in Thailand. You would likely need to pay tax on your UK pension income in Thailand. It is advisable to consult with a tax professional in Thailand to understand your exact tax liabilities and ensure compliance with local tax laws.

 

 

Me:

Are Thai nationals, tax resident in UK, subject to UK tax on their Thai pensions if the pension payments are transferred to UK ?

 

For Thai nationals who are tax residents in the UK and receive pensions from Thailand, the tax treatment in the UK would generally follow these principles:

1. UK Taxation on Foreign Pensions: In the UK, pensions from foreign sources, including Thai pensions, are typically subject to UK income tax if the individual is a UK tax resident. This means that if a Thai national is a tax resident in the UK, their Thai pension income is likely to be taxed in the UK.

2. Double Taxation Agreement (DTA): The Double Taxation Agreement between the UK and Thailand does not usually provide a specific exemption for pensions paid from one country to another. Instead, it generally allows each country to tax pensions but aims to avoid double taxation. This often means that the pension will be taxed in the country where the recipient resides (in this case, the UK).

3. Tax Credits and Reliefs: To prevent double taxation, the UK tax system might provide relief. For example, the UK tax resident could claim a credit for any tax paid in Thailand on the same pension income, or apply for a tax relief under the terms of the DTA.

4. Thai Tax Considerations: Thai nationals receiving pensions from Thailand might also be subject to Thai tax laws, but this would typically depend on whether they are still considered tax residents of Thailand or if the pension is subject to Thai tax rules even if paid abroad.

In summary, a Thai national who is a tax resident in the UK would generally need to pay UK tax on their Thai pension. The DTA aims to alleviate the risk of double taxation, but specific details and reliefs should be confirmed by consulting a tax professional in the UK.

 

 

Me:

Is there any evidence of Thai nationals, tax resident in UK, having paid UK income tax ?

 

ChatGPT

Yes, there is evidence that Thai nationals who are tax residents in the UK generally do pay UK income tax on their foreign pensions, including those from Thailand. Here’s a breakdown of how this typically works:

1. UK Tax Residency and Global Income: In the UK, tax residents are subject to UK income tax on their worldwide income, including pensions from abroad. This means that Thai nationals who are UK tax residents must report and pay tax on their Thai pensions in the UK.

2. Historical Cases and Guidance: Various sources, including UK tax guidelines and case studies, show that foreign pensions are subject to UK income tax if the recipient is a UK tax resident. The UK tax authority, HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC), provides guidance that confirms this principle.

3. Double Taxation Agreement (DTA) Relief: To address concerns about double taxation, the UK’s DTA with Thailand allows for relief mechanisms. Although the DTA itself does not specifically exempt Thai pensions from UK tax, it aims to ensure that taxpayers do not face double taxation. The individual might be able to claim relief for any Thai tax paid on the same income, but this does not exempt them from paying UK tax on their worldwide income.

4. Examples of Tax Filing: In practice, individuals in this situation typically need to file a UK Self Assessment tax return, declaring their Thai pension income. They would then be taxed on this income according to UK tax rates, and any applicable relief or credit for foreign taxes paid can be claimed.

5. Professional Advice: Many tax professionals in the UK handle cases involving foreign pensions, including those from Thailand, and ensure that clients comply with UK tax obligations while maximizing any available reliefs under the DTA.

For specific cases or additional clarity, it’s always a good idea for individuals to consult with a tax advisor or accountant who can provide tailored advice based on the latest regulations and personal circumstances.

Obviously ChatGPT is useful in some situations - but I would not take tax advice from it because it is just parroting the words used by many tax consultants on their websites - designed to drum up business. And lets face it, people like me who think Government Pensions are not taxable income, do not have a website.  Maybe ask ChatGPT what does the TRD say about Government Pensions being taxable income. 

 

[Phulublub]

11 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I would point out that words have different meanings in different countries, and who knows how TRD interprets the difference between 'Government Pension' and 'State Pension'. IMO any Pension paid by a Government is a Government Pension - until TRD states that they do not apply that interpretation, then, again, it is subjective opinion.

When the UK Government defines the UK State Pension as NOT being a Government Pension, then it appears (to me at least) that the UK State Pension is NOT a Government Pension.

 

PH

[motdaeng]

7 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Thais do not pay taxes on the Pension payments.  Is this Pension you mention payment any different under Thai tax law - no one knows for sure - TRD have not clarified this particular issue - and hundreds of others.

IMO it could be taxable income - because she is not a Citizen of that other country - unlike Expats receiving Pension payments from their own country which IMO are not taxable income in Thailand - until TRD declares they are. 

 

that's a good point, thank you ...

[TroubleandGrumpy]

45 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

How does the UK tax pensions differently from all other income?

PH

It is 'counted' but not taxed (in most situations).

[TroubleandGrumpy]

25 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

When the UK Government defines the UK State Pension as NOT being a Government Pension, then it appears (to me at least) that the UK State Pension is NOT a Government Pension.

 

PH

The new State Pension: Eligibility - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

Looks like a Government Pension to me - but that is not what counts - what counts is how TRD views and accepts it.

 

 

[OJAS]

10 hours ago, Lorry said:

Quite a few widows of foreigners receive Western pensions. 

A lady I know,  whose husband died yesterday, will get about 2000 USD monthly. 

I have no idea whether these Thais pay taxes. 

 

5 hours ago, motdaeng said:

 

the same tax laws apply to thais as to us foreigners. this lady has to pay taxes for her pension ...

 

And whether to the TRD or their counterparts in her late husband's home country may be dependent on the terms of the relevant DTA.

 

EDIT: For example, my Thai wife will be entitled to a small pension based on my UK Government occupational pension after I've popped my clogs - which, according to the UK/Thailand DTA, wlll be taxable by the TRD (and not by HMRC back in the UK).

 

Edited August 4 by OJAS

[chiang mai]

Perhaps the following will help?

 

"You would pay tax in the country you are tax resident.
For a UK government pension these are normally still liable in the UK. if you are referring to a state pension then this can be exempt but you need to make a formal application for relief.
Please see guidance here: 
Double Taxation: UK - Spain (Form Spain-Individual)
Thank you." 

 

https://community.hmrc.gov.uk/customerforums/pt/cc551648-67f5-ed11-a81c-6045bd0ba09e

 

HMRC appears to make a clear distinction between government and state pensions and their ability to be taxed.

[CharlesHolzhauer]

4 hours ago, Presnock said:

Taxation without representation just doesn't make sense to me.

Agree!

Applying or connecting the phrase 'Taxation Without Representation' to the Thai Revenue Department is completely off-the-wall or, to be more accurate, insane. If an individual believes that the Thai government should not impose taxes on those who feel unrepresented or unloved by the government, then 'tough titties' [Ma Anand Sheela, the former private secretary to the late Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh]. Thailand is a sovereign country with its own laws, rules, and regulations. If any resident, whether Thai or foreign, or any visitor cannot or will not respect the rules of the land, then they must expect pertinent consequences for the wrongs committed, which most probably will not be agreeable to the perpetrator.

[Lorry]

5 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You say or quote the above. However the TRD disagrees with that statement in bold, see section 40 (1) 2

 

that Thailand may pay pensions that are under the threshold to actually pay tax doesn’t mean that hey are not taxable

Sec4 (1) 2. refers to  pensions you got because you used to be employed.

Some countries have old-age pensions, that everybody gets, whether you formerly worked or not.

 

I don't know whether Sec4 (1) 2. also includes pensions from European social security schemes, financed by people who are working right now.

You are not eligible to get these pensions if you didn't work. But the pension you get has not been funded by your former contributions.

 

It certainly applies to pensions paid by your former employer, or funded by yourself by forced or voluntary contributions 

Edited August 4 by Lorry

[Presnock]

1 hour ago, CharlesHolzhauer said:

Agree!

Applying or connecting the phrase 'Taxation Without Representation' to the Thai Revenue Department is completely off-the-wall or, to be more accurate, insane. If an individual believes that the Thai government should not impose taxes on those who feel unrepresented or unloved by the government, then 'tough titties' [Ma Anand Sheela, the former private secretary to the late Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh]. Thailand is a sovereign country with its own laws, rules, and regulations. If any resident, whether Thai or foreign, or any visitor cannot or will not respect the rules of the land, then they must expect pertinent consequences for the wrongs committed, which most probably will not be agreeable to the perpetrator.

 

44 minutes ago, Lorry said:

Sec4 (1) 2. refers to  pensions you got because you used to be employed.

Some countries have old-age pensions, that everybody gets, whether you formerly worked or not.

 

I don't know whether Sec4 (1) 2. also includes pensions from European social security schemes, financed by people who are working right now.

You are not eligible to get these pensions if you didn't work. But the pension you get has not been funded by your former contributions.

 

It certainly applies to pensions paid by your former employer, or funded by yourself by forced or voluntary contributions 

Well, My pension is from the US Government and is a pension paid for the 40 years of government employment during which the monies I receive were paid by me and my fellow employees.  The LTR to which I paid for certain 10-year benefits says I do not have to pay taxes on foreign income and in addition, the DTA between the US and Thailand says that my pension can only be taxed by the US government.  Now, if both those reasons that I have non-assessable income are declared null and void by the Thai government, then yes, I will leave this land that I love and that I spend several millions of baht yearly and have done so for many years.  I would not be happy to leave but I would go to some place that puts some value on my monies and self worth.  Best of luck to others that may be negatively affected by the tax programs to come.

[Phulublub]

Suggest you stop digging.

3 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

It is 'counted' but not taxed (in most situations).

What are you wittering about?  "Counted but not taxed"?  Baloney, unless you are non-tax resident, in which case all of it is liable to be taxed where you are resident.

 

PH

[Phulublub]

3 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

The new State Pension: Eligibility - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

Looks like a Government Pension to me - but that is not what counts - what counts is how TRD views and accepts it.

 

 

How many people, how may times, have to point out to your that the State Pension is not a Government Pension?  The term "Government Pension" has a clearly defined meaning.  

 

PH

[Presnock]

2 hours ago, OJAS said:

 

 

And whether to the TRD or their counterparts in her late husband's home country may be dependent on the terms of the relevant DTA.

 

EDIT: For example, my Thai wife will be entitled to a small pension based on my UK Government occupational pension after I've popped my clogs - which, according to the UK/Thailand DTA, wlll be taxable by the TRD (and not by HMRC back in the UK).

 

Yeah, when I pass away, my wife will get a pension annuity from the US govt.  Since she is a native Thai and living in Thailand she will need to notify the IRS of this fact, so that the US doesn't tax that annuity and she will need to pay Thai taxes on those funds.  We are well aware of that fact as it is also stated in the DTA very clearly.