Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[Presnock]

19 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

The main 'driver' for me asking for a Thai Tax-ID was one of the Canadian financial institutions (where I have a SUBSTANTIAL amount of money), when they discovered from Revenue Canada that I was now in Thailand, froze my account.  One of the things I had to do to unfreeze the account was provide them a Thai tax-ID.  So obtaining an official from the Thai RD state a Thai tax-ID for me could be my pink-ID if and when it was activated (and it was not yet active) was important to me.  I could then pass that information to that one Canadian financial institution.

 

Further, I was also opening an account with a second Canadian financial institution, and they also REQUIRED my Thai tax-ID - so again, I passed them my pink-ID # with the caveat that the tax ID was not yet activated.  I could also truthfully state in that application that I applied for such ID to be activated.

 

I am happy to be on the LTR visa - but I note that the wording (translations) in the Royal Decree documents on the LTR visa note foreign income for 'Wealthy Pensioners' is "EXEMPT".  The wording "NOT ACCESSIBLE INCOME" is NOT used in the Royal Decree on the LTR.   Further, the Thai tax returns require accessible income is to be reported, and that income can then subsequently be deducted as being tax exempt (and there is a form for exempt income - which I note at present has no mention of income exempt by the LTR).

 

That is why I believe the questions in regards to "is an income tax return required" was important, and it was a reason for the questions being asked to the Thai RD official (which they could not answer).  And if the Thai tax officials can not answer the questions, how confident can we be of our answers?

Well I am positive about seeing numerous times here, that your pink ID number will be your tax ID number.  I am also positive and have read the Revenue Department royal decree explanation and know that ANY remitted foreign funds are exempted by that royal decree..  Now any Thai income (since some on an LTR can also get through the BOI a work permit and the tax amount is limited but I am not sure if it is 14 or 17% of assessable income.  If you do have assessable income from within Thailand then yeah you will include that on a tax form.  As for the exempted funds from overseas, I think (maybe) they will include something along those lines in the new tax forms that reportedly will come out in Nov/Dec of this year but we will have to wait and see since the govt may be all screwed up until the dust settles.  If you do not have any assessable income you would not have to do tax forms but should get that tax id number settled for your Canadian offices.

I am not a tax expert by any means but I do know about my LTR exemption and DTA of the US so the other bits on the ID number if you are a pink card holder is based on numerous conversation here and I don't understand why a revenue dept anywhere would not know about that.  But it seems that from other conversations here on this forum from users that go to the "local" revenue department office those officers too in most cases know nothing about anything this year.  Hopefully by the end of the year we expats will get the final version of this whole bit and whether or not there will be further changes,.

Good luck.

[sometimewoodworker]

40 minutes ago, Presnock said:

I too have any LTR - my pension can't be taxwed by Thailand, the LTR too indicates that I cannot be taxed on any foreign monies remitted into Thailand.  Therefore I do not have any assessable income so am not required to get a tax ID by definition of when to do so nor will I have to file any tax forms.  Since you do have interest income, just check with the Thai revenue dept or one of the charts on this forum that provides  the amount needed to meet assessable income level after deductions etc. Unless you are getting a lot of money on the interest then I wouldn't worry about it at all.  If your want to get that interest money back from the bank or whatever then you would need to file.  The requirements for getting a Thai Tax ID number (yeah it will be the same as your pink ID number) then you can google the revenue dept and check their website.  They have a chart there with the laws in Thai and next to each type, there is an English translation.  Best of luck.  boi ltr also gives you the benefits - no tax on foreign funds and the revenue dept also has the royal decree with the exemption of the foreign money remitted by LTR holders.

You seem to be confusing the amount you need to have as income, quite a bit, and the amount you can reclaim, any amount.

 

I received a 300 baht refund a couple of years back, I haven’t bothered to file again.

[Presnock]

Just now, sometimewoodworker said:

You seem to be confusing the amount you need to have as income, quite a bit, and the amount you can reclaim, any amount.

 

I received a 300 baht refund a couple of years back, I haven’t bothered to file again.

No I have no idea how much you might be able to reclaim - as many have said, they will ignore that even though some have gotten it before.  People seem to be afraid that the Revenue folks will then target one if one doesn't file the tax forms.  All you would have to do is show a copy of you LTR visas and they should definitely understand that you don't have to remit anything.  I just didn't know if you had a lot of interest paid on the Thai banking bit.

[chiang mai]

17 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

IF so - then why as part of the Thai tax forms is there one where exempt income is to be listed?

Declaring non-assessable income is not an unusual practise in any tax regime but I had not seen that there was a place to do so on Thai tax forms. Some people will say that the TRD is not interested in exempt income but I have always declared mine. The fact that I don't know where that place is on the form is not unusable since I nearly always have the TRD complete my return for me, and it's fairly simple.

[chiang mai]

12 minutes ago, Presnock said:

Well I am positive about seeing numerous times here, that your pink ID number will be your tax ID number.  I am also positive and have read the Revenue Department royal decree explanation and know that ANY remitted foreign funds are exempted by that royal decree..  Now any Thai income (since some on an LTR can also get through the BOI a work permit and the tax amount is limited but I am not sure if it is 14 or 17% of assessable income.  If you do have assessable income from within Thailand then yeah you will include that on a tax form.  As for the exempted funds from overseas, I think (maybe) they will include something along those lines in the new tax forms that reportedly will come out in Nov/Dec of this year but we will have to wait and see since the govt may be all screwed up until the dust settles.  If you do not have any assessable income you would not have to do tax forms but should get that tax id number settled for your Canadian offices.

I am not a tax expert by any means but I do know about my LTR exemption and DTA of the US so the other bits on the ID number if you are a pink card holder is based on numerous conversation here and I don't understand why a revenue dept anywhere would not know about that.  But it seems that from other conversations here on this forum from users that go to the "local" revenue department office those officers too in most cases know nothing about anything this year.  Hopefully by the end of the year we expats will get the final version of this whole bit and whether or not there will be further changes,.

Good luck.

There was a point in time, before which the pink ID was not used as a TIN and after that point it was, hence, not all pink ID's are TIN's.

[oldcpu]

13 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You seem to be confusing the amount you need to have as income, quite a bit, and the amount you can reclaim, any amount.

 

I received a 300 baht refund a couple of years back, I haven’t bothered to file again.

 I don't think I am confused.

 

I have not checked for a while, but my interest income INSIDE Thailand from bonds/bank accounts is > 100,000 THB.  As noted withholding tax already taken by Thailand is > 15,000 (closer to 30,000 THB).

 

Where is the confusion you refer to ?

 

[oldcpu]

6 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Declaring non-assessable income is not an unusual practise in any tax regime but I had not seen that there was a place to do so on Thai tax forms.

 

Again, where does it state foreign income (from an LTR resident) is 'non-assessable'?  I have read in the Royal Decree it is Tax exempt (it does NOT state non-assessable), and there is a Thai form where exemptions are listed when one files a Thai tax return.

 

My hope is that this all clarifies as the months go by. 

 

Currently, even the local Thai Revenue Department officials don't know the answers here - which again makes me wonder how we can be 100% certain of our our answers as foreigners?

 

I believe the best we can do is make our best assessment, and I do appreciate very much your assessment and I also very much appreciate the assessment of others.

 

 

[redwood1]

Bla Bla Bla the only people in all of Thailand that care the slightest about this ignored non tax that  Mr Smilely brought up almost a year ago now and never mentioned it again...Are a few diehards on this forum and a few tax advisors $$$ who would love to help the diehards lighten their $$$ load......lol

 

The other 99.9%  of Thais  Russians Chinese  Indians and farang just dont give a rats-azz ...They never have and never will EVER....

 

Feel free to debate the vastly complicated international tax law endlessly...After another year goes by people here will still be debating the same old tired stuff....

[chiang mai]

6 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

Again, where does it state foreign income (from an LTR resident) is 'non-assessable'?  I have read in the Royal Decree it is Tax exempt (it does NOT state non-assessable), and there is a Thai form where exemptions are listed when one files a Thai tax return.

 

My hope is that this all clarifies as the months go by. 

 

Currently, even the local Thai Revenue Department officials don't know the answers here - which again makes me wonder how we can be 100% certain of our our answers as foreigners?

 

I believe the best we can do is make our best assessment, and I do appreciate very much your assessment and I also very much appreciate the assessment of others.

 

 

The new tax forms are said to available from November on, perhaps the ltr boss fields will be there.

[Presnock]

15 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

There was a point in time, before which the pink ID was not used as a TIN and after that point it was, hence, not all pink ID's are TIN's.

If you go to the thai revenue department, it says "quote" if you have a pink ID card then you do not need to get a Tax ID number, and if you file taxes just use the ID number on the pink ID card"  that is a quote from the Thai Revenue dept page.

 Just google TaX IDENTIFICATION: THAI REVENU DEPARTMENT AND IT GIVES YOU THE OFFICIAL PAGE FOR THAT. iT IS RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING.

[Presnock]

10 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

Again, where does it state foreign income (from an LTR resident) is 'non-assessable'?  I have read in the Royal Decree it is Tax exempt (it does NOT state non-assessable), and there is a Thai form where exemptions are listed when one files a Thai tax return.

 

My hope is that this all clarifies as the months go by. 

 

Currently, even the local Thai Revenue Department officials don't know the answers here - which again makes me wonder how we can be 100% certain of our our answers as foreigners?

 

I believe the best we can do is make our best assessment, and I do appreciate very much your assessment and I also very much appreciate the assessment of others.

 

Just go the BOI LTR web page and look at the benefits.   or go to the revenue dept web page and look at the LTR exemption royal decree for LTR holders.  If your remitted income is exempted from taxes it is not assessable.

 

1 minute ago, chiang mai said:

The new tax forms are said to available from November on, perhaps the ltr boss fields will be there.

 

[Presnock]

21 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

There was a point in time, before which the pink ID was not used as a TIN and after that point it was, hence, not all pink ID's are TIN's.

if you can read, google Tax identification: thai revenu dept: it says you do not have to get a tax id number if you have a pink ID card with that number in order to file taxes.  this is a thai revenue dept page!

[oldcpu]

5 minutes ago, Presnock said:

If you go to the thai revenue department, it says "quote" if you have a pink ID card then you do not need to get a Tax ID number, and if you file taxes just use the ID number on the pink ID card"  that is a quote from the Thai Revenue dept page.

 Just google TaX IDENTIFICATION: THAI REVENU DEPARTMENT AND IT GIVES YOU THE OFFICIAL PAGE FOR THAT. iT IS RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING.

 

I think it more complex than this. According to my Thai wife there is a way to check ones Thai tax ID online. When she entered my pink ID it was not recognized as a Tax ID. .. So when she talked to the Thai RD official, that official noted there 1st needs to be an activation for the pink ID to be the tax ID. He emphasized it is not by default active as a tax ID . One has to apply for the tax ID for the activation to take place.

[Presnock]

Just now, oldcpu said:

 

I think it more complex than this. According to my Thai wife there is a way to check ones Thai tax ID online. When she entered my pink ID it was not recognized as a Tax ID. .. So when she talked to the Thai RD official, that official noted there 1st needs to be an activation for the pink ID to be the tax ID. He emphasized it is not by default active as a tax ID . One has to apply for the tax ID for the activation to take place.

 

Just now, oldcpu said:

 

I think it more complex than this. According to my Thai wife there is a way to check ones Thai tax ID online. When she entered my pink ID it was not recognized as a Tax ID. .. So when she talked to the Thai RD official, that official noted there 1st needs to be an activation for the pink ID to be the tax ID. He emphasized it is not by default active as a tax ID . One has to apply for the tax ID for the activation to take place.

Just read the revenue department documentation on obtaining a tax id number - it staes at the beginning - this is one of the revenue department's pages - tax identification - says if one has a pink id card (I guess a 13-digit number that one does not need to get a tax identification number but if one files a tax form, just USE THE PINK ID CARD NUMBER.  The revenue department says this.  COpy the page and if you go talk to your local tax office take that page and show it to him/her.  That is an official document (or translation by that department anyway).

 

[chiang mai]

10 minutes ago, Presnock said:

if you can read, google Tax identification: thai revenu dept: it says you do not have to get a tax id number if you have a pink ID card with that number in order to file taxes.  this is a thai revenue dept page!

Agreed, it's just that the number changed in length some years ago and not everyone updated their card.

[oldcpu]

7 minutes ago, Presnock said:

 

Just read the revenue department documentation on obtaining a tax id number - it staes at the beginning - this is one of the revenue department's pages - tax identification - says if one has a pink id card (I guess a 13-digit number that one does not need to get a tax identification number but if one files a tax form, just USE THE PINK ID CARD NUMBER.  The revenue department says this.  COpy the page and if you go talk to your local tax office take that page and show it to him/her.  That is an official document (or translation by that department anyway).

 

I am happy to read such. If the Phuket RD official phone calls back, my wife may mention that to him. I also used that pink ID # as a Thai taxID # for two Canadian financial institutions (with a caveat it is not yet activated) so that makes me content I am doing things proper. Sometimes Canadian financial institutions can be vindictive ( my words) if they think one is misleading in following their guidelines. 

[Presnock]

2 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Agreed, it's just that the number changed in length some years ago and not everyone updated their card.

well LIke I mentioned, I am not a tax expert, I can read their laws, usually understand  in Thai or English and I am telling you what it says in the current Thai Revenue Department page.  If your ID number is less than 13 digits that might be a problem but again I sure don't know,  If you are concerned, copy that page and go to the local rd office and show them and then they should understand.  Good luck.

[Presnock]

2 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

I am happy to read such. If the Phuket RD official phone calls back, my wife may mention that to him. I also used that pink ID # as a Thai taxID # for two Canadian financial institutions (with a caveat it is not yet activated) so that makes me content I am doing things proper. Sometimes Canadian financial institutions can be vindictive ( my words) if they think one is misleading in following their guidelines. 

I fully understand about tax offices, I have been filing for 60+ years and hate to do it every year but I do have a company that does it for not very much and I usually have my tax refund within a couple of weeks.   I am very good at following written instructions which the IRS is very good at providing for us.  Good luck to you guys too.

 

6 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Agreed, it's just that the number changed in length some years ago and not everyone updated their card.

It mentiones nothing about changing the numbers - but I didn't read beyond that at the beginning about the pink card ID.

[oldcpu]

23 minutes ago, Presnock said:

well LIke I mentioned, I am not a tax expert, I can read their laws, usually understand  in Thai or English and I am telling you what it says in the current Thai Revenue Department page.  If your ID number is less than 13 digits that might be a problem but again I sure don't know,  If you are concerned, copy that page and go to the local rd office and show them and then they should understand.  Good luck.

 

Chatting just now with my Thai wife.  She noted, as a test (with no intention to follow through) she started submitting an online tax form for me, ... and she entered my pink-Thai-ID 13-digit number into the tax-ID field, and it rejected the pink-ID # (as a tax-ID #) saying 'not recognized'.  So it appears, (my speculation) that until the pink-ID is 'activated' as a 'tax-ID' it won't be accepted for an online completion of the tax submission.

 

I assume then that one can print out the Thai tax paperwork , fill in with a pen, and submit such by postal mail ? (I guess I should check this) ... and maybe then one may (or may not) be able to do an online tax submission with one's pink-ID tax number for a subsequent year.

 

But I assume (unless someone made a mistake in the Thai RD for my pink-ID) that by default, the pink-ID # is not recognized as a Thai tax-ID for an online submission until some sort of 'activation' on the Thai RD side takes place.

 

I think am going to wait until the end of this year until the new Thai tax forms come out (?) and maybe (emphasis on "MAYBE")  early next year submit a Thai tax return (by snail mail ? if possible ? ) using my pink-ID # as the Thai tax ID. This will be more for the interest (and withhold tax) associated with Thai bonds/bank accounts in my name - than for my foreign income which is tax exempt (by Royal Decree) and which even the local Thai RD official does not know how it should be handled (for foreign income money brought into Thailand by an individual on a Wealthy Pensioner LTR visa).

 

I am not going to hold my breath expecting the Thai tax official to call my wife back, as I don't expect them to call my wife back (as they may be worried about being asked more questions that they can not answer).

[Presnock]

1 minute ago, oldcpu said:

 

Chatting just now with my Thai wife.  She noted, as a test (with no intention to follow through) she started submitting an online tax form for me, ... and she entered my pink-Thai-ID 13-digit number into the tax-ID field, and it rejected the pink-ID # (as a tax-ID #) saying 'not recognized'.  So it appears, (my speculation) that until the pink-ID is 'activated' as a 'tax-ID' it won't be accepted for an online completion of the tax submission.

 

I assume then that one can print out the Thai tax paperwork , fill in with a pen, and submit such by postal mail ? (I guess I should check this) ... and maybe then one may (or may not) be able to do an online tax submission with one's pink-ID tax number.

 

But I assume (unless someone made a mistake in the Thai RD for my pink-ID) that by default, the pink-ID # is not recognized as a Thai tax-ID for an online submission until some sort of 'activation' on the Thai RD side takes place.

 

I think am going to wait until the end of this year until the new Thai tax forms come out (?) and maybe (emphasis on "MAYBE")  early next year submit a Thai tax return (by snail mail ? if possible ? ) using my pink-ID # as the Thai tax ID. This will be more for the interest (and withhold tax) associated with Thai bonds/bank accounts in my name - than for my foreign income which is tax exempt (by Royal Decree) and which even the local Thai RD official does not know how it should be handled (for foreign income money brought into Thailand).

 

I am not going to hold my breath expecting the Thai tax official to call my wife back, as I don't expect them to call my wife back (as they may be worried about being asked more questions that they can not answer).

Amen to that comment seems you understand Asians pretty well...but like I said if you are concerned, take your pink ID card, a copy of the Thai revenue dept page on using that pink id card number for filing taxes and your wife to make sure all understand what is going on, and show them in their own office words about the pink id card number that may or may not be valid any longer.  Best of luck and surest way that you are possibly going to get an honest answer.  Of course you couldalways go to one of the tax agents and pay them for the same answer.  UP to you.  Good luck

[OJAS]

3 hours ago, Phulublub said:

So you can confirm from personal experience that the State Pension is not taxed?

 

No, I was seeking to confirm that I DO pay UK tax on my State Pension. HMRC take the £12,570 personal allowance into account through my tax code which solely covers my occupational pension. I make subsequent tax payments directly to HMRC which equate to 20% of my State Pension income.

 

Your and others' mileages may vary, of course.

 

[OJAS]

1 hour ago, oldcpu said:

 I don't think I am confused.

 

I have not checked for a while, but my interest income INSIDE Thailand from bonds/bank accounts is > 100,000 THB.  As noted withholding tax already taken by Thailand is > 15,000 (closer to 30,000 THB).

 

Where is the confusion you refer to ?

 

 

Best you take everything he says with a large pinch of salt, I think! 😇

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, Presnock said:

 

Just read the revenue department documentation on obtaining a tax id number - it staes at the beginning - this is one of the revenue department's pages - tax identification - says if one has a pink id card (I guess a 13-digit number that one does not need to get a tax identification number but if one files a tax form, just USE THE PINK ID CARD NUMBER.  The revenue department says this.  COpy the page and if you go talk to your local tax office take that page and show it to him/her.  That is an official document (or translation by that department anyway).

 

 

I just spent the last 40 minutes looking at the Thai RD page trying to find documentation on obtaining a tax ID number.  I can not find such that refers to the foreigner Thai (pink) ID card. Only generic statements about Thai citizen tax ID # that are 13-digits long from their Thai ID. 

 

Perhaps the RD documentation was updated since you last looked and no longer states such.  ... Best I can determine now, there is no such entry any more on the RD web page (and I would be happy to be proven wrong). 

[oldcpu]

3 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

I just spent the last 40 minutes looking at the Thai RD page trying to find documentation on obtaining a tax ID number.  I can not find such that refers to the foreigner Thai (pink) ID card. Only generic statements about Thai citizen tax ID # that are 13-digits long from their Thai ID. 

 

Perhaps the RD documentation was updated since you last looked and no longer states such.  ... Best I can determine now, there is no such entry any more on the RD web page (and I would be happy to be proven wrong). 

 

I did find this: 

 

" However, a taxpayer who is an individual or a payer of income who is an individual is not required to apply for a TIN if he has and uses a personal identification number (PIN) in accordance with the civilian registration law. He can use his PIN instead of TIN for tax return filing purposes."

 

however it in my view only refers to Thai citizens and not for certain refers to foreigners with the pink (foreigner) ID.

 

 

[Rimmer]

A troll post has been removed

[Phulublub]

32 minutes ago, OJAS said:

 

No, I was seeking to confirm that I DO pay UK tax on my State Pension. HMRC take the £12,570 personal allowance into account through my tax code which solely covers my occupational pension. I make subsequent tax payments directly to HMRC which equate to 20% of my State Pension income.

 

Your and others' mileages may vary, of course.

 

This (appears) to go directly against the HMRC website - as long as you have declared yourself non-resident for tax.  Well worth investigating as you may be owed a considerable sum on overpayments.

 

Slightly off topic, but I know several UK expats who have failed to tell HMRC of their residential status so they continue to receive the annual pension increase;  these will (as long as they have other income) be taxed, and quite rightly so as they are already breaking UK Law by doing so.  One day Government departments will be able to coordinate a lot better and determine whether all those who claim to be UK resident but who are not (or vice versa) to evade tax could have a nasty surprise.   personally will be content to forego the annual increases and not pay any tax on my Pension (if I live long enough to start receiving it)

 

PH

[chiang mai]

32 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

I did find this: 

 

" However, a taxpayer who is an individual or a payer of income who is an individual is not required to apply for a TIN if he has and uses a personal identification number (PIN) in accordance with the civilian registration law. He can use his PIN instead of TIN for tax return filing purposes."

 

however it in my view only refers to Thai citizens and not for certain refers to foreigners with the pink (foreigner) ID.

 

 

Just so that everyone who is reading this is on the same page - The Thai ID card number is the civilian PIN number which is also their TIN, this is for Thai's only. The foreigner equivalent of the PIN and Thai ID card number is the Pink ID car number.

[Presnock]

48 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

I did find this: 

 

" However, a taxpayer who is an individual or a payer of income who is an individual is not required to apply for a TIN if he has and uses a personal identification number (PIN) in accordance with the civilian registration law. He can use his PIN instead of TIN for tax return filing purposes."

 

however it in my view only refers to Thai citizens and not for certain refers to foreigners with the pink (foreigner) ID.

 

 

well I googled tax identification: thai revenue department and got a revenue dept page and it mentions several times the ID number/alien too I am not sure what ID number other than the pink one  that aliens get.  Why not just take the pink id card to your local revenue department office and ask them if that suffices instead of not accepting what the page says about getting a tax id number and not needing one if you have the (sorry) it didn't say pink ID card number.

[sometimewoodworker]

4 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

IF so - then why as part of the Thai tax forms is there one where exempt income is to be listed?

Just because you may have to list it doesn’t mean it should be assessed for tax

[sometimewoodworker]

4 hours ago, Presnock said:

No I have no idea how much you might be able to reclaim - as many have said, they will ignore that even though some have gotten it before.  People seem to be afraid that the Revenue folks will then target one if one doesn't file the tax forms.  All you would have to do is show a copy of you LTR visas and they should definitely understand that you don't have to remit anything.  I just didn't know if you had a lot of interest paid on the Thai banking bit.

You quoted my post that informed you that I had got a three hundred baht refund. Is that too little?