Foreign Pilots Temporarily Allowed to Fly Domestic Routes?

[Georgealbert]

 

 

Picture courtesy of Thai Vietjet.

 

The Labour Ministry is considering a temporary allowance for foreign pilots to fly domestic routes under wet lease agreements, according to Labour Minister Phiphat Ratchakitprakarn. While this arrangement is being explored for one specific airline, further requests from other airlines will be evaluated individually.

 

Minister Phiphat stated that the ministry is awaiting a final meeting with the airline to conclude discussions. The issue was first raised by Thai Vietjet last month during a meeting with the Department of Employment, the Civil Aviation Authority of Thailand (CAAT), and the Thai Pilots Association. The airline requested permission for foreign pilots to operate domestic routes under wet lease agreements, a request originally made to former Prime Minister Srettha Thavisin.

 

 

The ministry confirmed that Thai Vietjet intends to lease two aircraft, complete with crew, maintenance, and insurance, from a foreign company for six months. The airline plans to operate these jets during Thailand's high tourism season. Although domestic flights are usually reserved for Thai pilots, the ministry is considering making an exception.

 

Phiphat noted that Thailand does not face a pilot shortage, but the lease terms require foreign pilots. A ministerial regulation could be issued to allow this on a temporary basis without parliamentary approval. He added that if other airlines wish to pursue similar agreements, they will need to file separate requests for consideration.

 

However, Teerawat Angkasakulkiat, president of the Thai Pilots Association, expressed concerns that allowing foreign pilots could reduce job opportunities for local pilots. He urged the government to focus on enhancing Thailand's position as an aviation hub and increasing flight capacity to boost domestic pilot employment.

 

Sarun Benjanirat, deputy director-general of CAAT, mentioned that while wet leasing is not uncommon, it has been rarely used in Thailand since its introduction in 2008. Unlike other nations which frequently utilises such arrangements, Thailand has minimal engagement with this practice, as it is not signed Article 83 of the Chicago Convention, which allows the state of registry to transfer supervisory responsibilities for an aircraft to the state of the operator.

 

-- 2024-09-21

 

 

[Captain Monday]

TIT. It has been going on for a long time. 

 

Will not name even though the air carriers where I know it occurred  specifically are defunct.

 

 

 

 

 

"Driving motor vehicles, driving a non-mechanically propelled carrier or driving a domestic mechanically propelled carrier, except for piloting international aircraft or forklift driving"

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Maybe someone who's an aviation geek here can explain the origins of the term "wet lease," which is used repeatedly above....

 

This is what I find on the subject, though it would have been nice if the OP article had explained the term for layman's consumption. But it seems totally un-intuitive for what it really means.

 

"14 CFR 110.2 defines a “wet lease” as “any leasing arrangement whereby a person agrees to provide an entire aircraft and at least one crewmember.” ...

One of the key issues that distinguishes a wet lease from a dry lease is “who has operational control” as defined in 14 CFR 1.1. In a “wet” lease situation, because the lessor is providing both aircraft and crew, the lessor maintains operational control of all flights."

 

https://pilot-protection-services.aopa.org/news/2017/april/01/wet-and-dry-aircraft-lease

 

How the above details translate into "wet" vs "dry" escapes me....

 

 

Edited September 21 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Captain Monday]

19 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Maybe someone who's an aviation geek here can explain the origins of the term "wet lease," which is used repeatedly above....

 

This is what I find on the subject, though it would have been nice if the OP article had explained the term for layman's consumption. But it seems totally un-intuitive for what it really means.

 

"14 CFR 110.2 defines a “wet lease” as “any leasing arrangement whereby a person agrees to provide an entire aircraft and at least one crewmember.” ...

One of the key issues that distinguishes a wet lease from a dry lease is “who has operational control” as defined in 14 CFR 1.1. In a “wet” lease situation, because the lessor is providing both aircraft and crew, the lessor maintains operational control of all flights."

 

https://pilot-protection-services.aopa.org/news/2017/april/01/wet-and-dry-aircraft-lease

 

How the above details translate into "wet" vs "dry" escapes me....

 

 

Wet lease is often referred to as ACMI. Where the lessor provides "Aircraft, crew maintenance and insurance". Very common in air cargo industry and charter carriers. The lessee just puts their corporate Name on the operation. Remember "Hooters Air"?  

The aircraft were operated by a small charter airline.

 

Dry leasing is just leasing the airframe. Many major airlines lease some or all of their aircraft. 

Announced this week United is leasing Airbus aircraft from a Irish company called SMBC Aviation capital

Maybe because of Boeings long term production and delivery schedules problems?

 

 

https://avitrader.com/2024/09/20/smbc-aviation-capital-leases-20-airbus-a321neo-to-united/

 

 

Edited September 21 by Captain Monday

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

13 minutes ago, Captain Monday said:

Remember "Hooters Air"?  

 

I don't, unfortunately.... 🙂

 

But I seem to recall a big hullabaloo not too far back when the same VietJet Airlines was doing some kind of promotion that had their female cabin crew members dancing down the cabin aisle decked out in bikinis!

 

https://onemileatatime.com/vietjet-models-football-players/

 

 

 

[hotchilli]

On 9/21/2024 at 6:03 PM, Georgealbert said:

However, Teerawat Angkasakulkiat, president of the Thai Pilots Association, expressed concerns that allowing foreign pilots could reduce job opportunities for local pilots. He urged the government to focus on enhancing Thailand's position as an aviation hub and increasing flight capacity to boost domestic pilot employment

So stick to Thai pilots only and the airlines will have to procure aircraft, crew and maintenance costs.

[FritsSikkink]

Happened before Covid many times already.

[SAFETY FIRST]

On 9/21/2024 at 6:03 PM, Georgealbert said:

foreign pilots to fly domestic routes

Is English the spoken language on domestic routes? 

 

I'd say there would be a lot of Thai language spoken on domestic routes by airports ground staff and air crew. 

 

Pilots and air traffic controllers would not be able to communicate effectively. 

 

Edited September 23 by SAFETY FIRST

[LukKrueng]

14 minutes ago, SAFETY FIRST said:

Is English the spoken language on domestic routes? 

 

I'd say there would be a lot of Thai language spoken on domestic routes by airports ground staff and air crew. 

 

Google translate to the rescue?

[SAFETY FIRST]

3 minutes ago, LukKrueng said:

Google translate to the rescue?

Pilots and air traffic controller. 

 

 

[Grusa]

On 9/21/2024 at 6:16 PM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Maybe someone who's an aviation geek here can explain the origins of the term "wet lease," which is used repeatedly above....

 

This is what I find on the subject, though it would have been nice if the OP article had explained the term for layman's consumption. But it seems totally un-intuitive for what it really means.

 

"14 CFR 110.2 defines a “wet lease” as “any leasing arrangement whereby a person agrees to provide an entire aircraft and at least one crewmember.” ...

One of the key issues that distinguishes a wet lease from a dry lease is “who has operational control” as defined in 14 CFR 1.1. In a “wet” lease situation, because the lessor is providing both aircraft and crew, the lessor maintains operational control of all flights."

 

https://pilot-protection-services.aopa.org/news/2017/april/01/wet-and-dry-aircraft-lease

 

How the above details translate into "wet" vs "dry" escapes me....

 

 

The origin is very simple. Fuel. Originally, one could hire a 'plane "wet", i.e. fuel cost included in the hourly rate, or "dry" i.e. no fuel included.

 

Just like car rentals.

[Sydebolle]

This racism does not stop anywhere, does it. It might be worthwhile to hint, that Thai Airways International was born out of a joint venture between Thai Airways (a tiny domestic carrier flying around with ashtrays on wings) and SAS from Scandinavia. 

I remember back in the day, that most captains were alien back then, until Thailand had trained enough semi-divines to fly Thailand-registered planes. Once SAS and the management (Thai) team they groomed was gone, Thai went downhill all the way. 

They still have not understood it; the best applicant should get the job, irrespective of race, gender, religion etc. And the latter does not apply to the flight deck but to literally anything else. 

A friend (a pilot) once chuckled, when he heard, that Thai domestic routes may be flown only by Thais. His deadpan comment on that was, that a non-Thai could not ask for directions nor read the sign boards 8-) 

[thaiowl]

2 hours ago, SAFETY FIRST said:

Is English the spoken language on domestic routes? 

 

I'd say there would be a lot of Thai language spoken on domestic routes by airports ground staff and air crew. 

 

Pilots and air traffic controllers would not be able to communicate effectively. 

 

My son is a pilot for a Thai carrier and English is always used when communicating with Air Traffic Control on domestic routes. I believe that foreigners are allowed to be Captains for a Thai carrier but First Officers have to be Thai nationals.

Edited September 23 by thaiowl

[Maybole]

Short term leased aircraft usually remain on the parent airline's home country registry. International regulations require crew members to hold licences issued by that country, thus any Thai pilot would need to obtain a foreign licence.

[Joe Farang]

On 9/23/2024 at 3:30 AM, SAFETY FIRST said:

Is English the spoken language on domestic routes? 

 

I'd say there would be a lot of Thai language spoken on domestic routes by airports ground staff and air crew. 

 

Pilots and air traffic controllers would not be able to communicate effectively. 

 

Any time I have flown domestically I am always seated in the emergency row. When you read the card it says anyone in those seats need to be able to speak english. I have never been asked if I can speak english. They just assume I can.