Urgent Request for Information re Death of British Citizen in Thailand

[save the frogs]

13 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

I've raised the girl, now 12 years old, since birth

good man

[hotandsticky]

11 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

 

Thanks.  The father, George, has never been married to the mother.  As George has resided in Thailand for 33 years with only one or two return visits back to the UK I would say it's safe to assume that all of his assets, other than his £11,000 pension, are located in Thailand.  Which then, I assume, can be handled here according to Thai law.  I'm only making educated assumptions at this point but I'll soon find out.

 

 

I would guess that is the UK State pension which ceases on death and has no benefits for spouses/children etc.

Edited October 8 by hotandsticky

[Dan O]

12 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

 

Another cheery post, thanks.  I take it that the nephew cannot divert the father's pension as he has no legal standing.  That has been a concern so to hear that is a relief.  The fraudster friend has possession of the father's ATM cards, the pin numbers, his laptop, and his mobile.  Can he refuse to turn these over to the daughter?  I would think not for neither does he have any standing.

 

When we get to the UK embassy then I will certainly enquire about how to proceed with the father's pension.

Yes the friend has no standing and the nephew does not either unless appoint by the court. One key is to get to the bank and freeze those accounts. Verify if money has been take out after the death. If so make a police report. If the friend does not want to turn over the cards phone and laptop again make a police report.

[Tippaporn]

Okay.  I sent an email to the British embassy requesting a Consular Letter and almost immediately received a reply instructing me to call the embassy.  On the call I provided the information they asked for and they will send an email  back this afternoon with a contact at the embassy.  After I receive that email I will send them a copy of the father's passport, the daughter's UK passport, the mother's Thai ID card, and the police report.  There is no need to have the police report translated.

 

Once they receive those documents then I assume they will issue the Consular Letter.  Hopefully we can have that by tomorrow.

[Tippaporn]

I'm truly amazed.  We received a soft copy of the Consular Letter via email by 4 PM today.  The hard copy is available to be picked up at the embassy with only a two hour notice so that reception can be notified of our arrival.  I've rarely seen government respond so swiftly.

 

When I sent the required documentation to the UK embassy I told my contact that if she needed anything else to feel free to ask me.  I thought it wise to mention that we have certified copies of the father's, the daughter's and the mother's birth certificates.  That is further hard evidence establishing the daughter as the true daughter of the father.  Here is what my embassy contact wrote in reply:

 

If you could send the birth certificates in your own time, that would be much appreciated. It is not needed for the consular letter, but it will be better to provide the confirmation of the relationship between <father> and <daughter>.

 

So, if anyone would dare question the legitimacy of the daughter as the legitimate daughter then the birth certificates establish that with certainty.  The father is listed as the father on daughter's birth certificate.

[Dan O]

1 hour ago, Tippaporn said:

I'm truly amazed.  We received a soft copy of the Consular Letter via email by 4 PM today.  The hard copy is available to be picked up at the embassy with only a two hour notice so that reception can be notified of our arrival.  I've rarely seen government respond so swiftly.

 

When I sent the required documentation to the UK embassy I told my contact that if she needed anything else to feel free to ask me.  I thought it wise to mention that we have certified copies of the father's, the daughter's and the mother's birth certificates.  That is further hard evidence establishing the daughter as the true daughter of the father.  Here is what my embassy contact wrote in reply:

 

If you could send the birth certificates in your own time, that would be much appreciated. It is not needed for the consular letter, but it will be better to provide the confirmation of the relationship between <father> and <daughter>.

 

So, if anyone would dare question the legitimacy of the daughter as the legitimate daughter then the birth certificates establish that with certainty.  The father is listed as the father on daughter's birth certificate.

Glad to hear this part is going smoothly. Hope some of the other areas that you have to deal with good smoothly. Even with that said your ordeal I dont wish on anyone but good on you for helping solve these issues under the circumstances and your relationship position in all this. Hang in their 

[Tropicalevo]

1 hour ago, Tippaporn said:

I'm truly amazed.  We received a soft copy of the Consular Letter via email by 4 PM today. 

 

The British embassy get a lot of stick (often rightly so) for not being helpful in some cases, but in the case of the death of a British citizen, I too was amazed as to how quick, professional and sympathetic the embassy were.

 

Did you ask them for a list of English speaking lawyers?

[dddave]

On 10/7/2024 at 8:15 PM, Tippaporn said:

 

Your advice to retain a lawyer sounds prudent to me.  Do you have a figure that would be reasonable for a lawyer here?  I'm only asking for a figure because i understand that there are unscrupulous lawyers out there who drastically overcharge.

Our suspected fraudster, Edward, made off with George's computer and mobile phone.  Those devices might prove to be difficult to recover if they are useful to the fraudster or if they contain information the fraudster does not want me to have.  I am certain that all of George's assets are to be found on that laptop as George was known to be meticulously organized ala German fashion.     Does Edward have any legal right to be in possession of these devices if Alice demands that they be given her?

When a friend was hit by a car in Pattaya and later died of his injuries, this company was a huge help to me and my friends family.  This company specializes in expat deaths  and the representative that I dealt with was very knowledgeable.  I would say talking with them would be a very good start as this is a very complex situation and mis-information will make your life much more difficult. https://www.amarinternational.com/contact.html

I can't post names or phone numbers here but if you DM me I will inform you who I dealt with.

[theblether]

Have you checked how much is owed to the hospital? 

 

Also, if its a UK state pension then the pension is now defunct. 

[Gaccha]

I remain quite concerned about the possibility of dissipation of funds.

 

You need to make an important strategic decision: you can warn the possible bad actor to immediately desist from his behaviour, or in the background you can smoothly remove control from him. 

 

Both these options have advantages and disadvantages. If you follow the first route, he hopefully will back off understanding the serious legal implications of his behaviour. With the second route, you avoid arousing his suspicion and get the matter done quickly without his obstructions. 

 

If you do decide the first route, you need to explain very clearly to him that he has no grounds to control any of these matters including his fantasy of setting up a fund for the daughter, or sending money to the Hong Kong nephew.

[FritsSikkink]

As he never was there, I would ignore the whole thing and let his British relatives sort it all out.

More hassle than money worth.

[Foresttrump]

I would check for the correct information regarding his UK state pension.  My good friend past away recently and his wife received a percentage of his pension monthly for 6 months.  Was he supporting his daughter in any way.

 

[Tippaporn]

On 10/8/2024 at 8:38 PM, Tropicalevo said:

 

The British embassy get a lot of stick (often rightly so) for not being helpful in some cases, but in the case of the death of a British citizen, I too was amazed as to how quick, professional and sympathetic the embassy were.

 

Did you ask them for a list of English speaking lawyers?

 

Trying to do this without lawyers.  We're in the process of petitioning the Thai court to be appointed administrator of the estate.  The daughter is first in line to the inheritance according to Thai law.  It's just that she's a minor.  The mother shouldn't have any trouble being appointed the administrator.  If we need a lawyer to compose a proper petition then we will certainly do that.  But we believe that this should not at all be complex given the estate.

[Tippaporn]

On 10/8/2024 at 9:05 PM, dddave said:

When a friend was hit by a car in Pattaya and later died of his injuries, this company was a huge help to me and my friends family.  This company specializes in expat deaths  and the representative that I dealt with was very knowledgeable.  I would say talking with them would be a very good start as this is a very complex situation and mis-information will make your life much more difficult. https://www.amarinternational.com/contact.html

I can't post names or phone numbers here but if you DM me I will inform you who I dealt with.

 

Thanks, ddedave.  So far so good.  No doubt it involves a lot of running around and it's a huge learning experience but nothing that's too formidable that we haven't been able to handle ourselves.

[Tippaporn]

On 10/8/2024 at 10:30 PM, theblether said:

Have you checked how much is owed to the hospital? 

 

Also, if its a UK state pension then the pension is now defunct. 

 

I'm late with all of my responses because this has been all consuming since the father's death.  The funeral was arranged with the help of friends and took place on the 13th.  The father had set money aside for the funeral and hospital so that is all behind us.

 

The pension is with Zurich.  We've contacted them to let them know the policy holder is deceased and they now await for an administrator to be appointed in order to settle the account.

[Tippaporn]

On 10/9/2024 at 10:04 AM, Gaccha said:

I remain quite concerned about the possibility of dissipation of funds.

 

You need to make an important strategic decision: you can warn the possible bad actor to immediately desist from his behaviour, or in the background you can smoothly remove control from him. 

 

Both these options have advantages and disadvantages. If you follow the first route, he hopefully will back off understanding the serious legal implications of his behaviour. With the second route, you avoid arousing his suspicion and get the matter done quickly without his obstructions. 

 

If you do decide the first route, you need to explain very clearly to him that he has no grounds to control any of these matters including his fantasy of setting up a fund for the daughter, or sending money to the Hong Kong nephew.

 

The Thai bank accounts were immediately frozen.  Two 25,000 baht withdrawals were made on the day of the father's death.  That money needs to be returned, either willingly or not.  I believe it will be willingly as the detrimental consequences far outweigh the paltry gain.

[Robin]

I cannot offer any legal advice, but my experience in similar cases is never to underestimate the greed of humanity, whne some 'money for nothing' is on offer.  Nor should you trust anyone who might have claim, or think they have claim, for the money to act helpfully toward you.  Never mind who is 'morally' right, they just want to money.

The verbal 'las Will & Testament' has no legal standing if it was not witnessed. nor vry little even if there was a witness.  Remember that said friend could easily have made the whole thing up simply to cover his theft of the bank cards and other stuff.  Why else would he have taken that and not be wanting to return it to the correct owner.

Try to keep written records of every communication you have with friend, and keep detailed notes of everything, every phone call, visit to bank, just about everything.  if it come down to "I said, he said" you will need every scrap of evidence.  

[Tippaporn]

On 10/9/2024 at 10:34 AM, FritsSikkink said:

As he never was there, I would ignore the whole thing and let his British relatives sort it all out.

More hassle than money worth.

 

One estranged sister residing in the UK and what appears to be a spiv banker nephew in Hong Kong.  The estate is not worth any effort by the EWB nephew and he's made that clear.  He wouldn't even come in for the funeral of his "beloved" uncle.

The value of the estate is worth pursuing.

[Tippaporn]

On 10/9/2024 at 11:22 AM, Foresttrump said:

I would check for the correct information regarding his UK state pension.  My good friend past away recently and his wife received a percentage of his pension monthly for 6 months.  Was he supporting his daughter in any way.

 

 

He was an absentee father.  5,000 baht per year for her birthday.  That was it.  And that lasted only up until she was six or seven.  He had been largely invisible since.  I won't judge him as there's a lot of complexity.  Humans are complex creatures.  I get that and so hold nothing against him.  I grant he made some poor decisions but I also grant that he did the best he knew how.  That's good enough for me.  I realise, too, that I myself live in a glass house, LOL.

[Tippaporn]

8 minutes ago, Robin said:

I cannot offer any legal advice, but my experience in similar cases is never to underestimate the greed of humanity, whne some 'money for nothing' is on offer.  Nor should you trust anyone who might have claim, or think they have claim, for the money to act helpfully toward you.  Never mind who is 'morally' right, they just want to money.

The verbal 'las Will & Testament' has no legal standing if it was not witnessed. nor vry little even if there was a witness.  Remember that said friend could easily have made the whole thing up simply to cover his theft of the bank cards and other stuff.  Why else would he have taken that and not be wanting to return it to the correct owner.

Try to keep written records of every communication you have with friend, and keep detailed notes of everything, every phone call, visit to bank, just about everything.  if it come down to "I said, he said" you will need every scrap of evidence.  

 

Wise advice, thank you.  Fortunately there are no claims being made by either his sister nor his nephew.  According to Thai law nephews have zero standing to claims of inheritance.  And he's stated emphatically that he has no legal representation on this matter in Thailand.  There will  be no opposition in court.

[Gaccha]

1 hour ago, Tippaporn said:

The Thai bank accounts were immediately frozen.  Two 25,000 baht withdrawals were made on the day of the father's death.  That money needs to be returned, either willingly or not. 

 

Firstly, are you sure you are aware of all his assets? He could have stocks, crypto or money, other funds in foreign banks and so on. Did you obtain access to any notes or books or items on his computer which reveal this? 

 

Have you gained full access to all his furniture and objects etc? Did you access his room which he lived? Did the hospital pass you all the property he had on his death? Did his "friend" assist with this? 

 

With regard to the 50,000 baht. Do you know where it went? Do you know who got it? Have you asked for its return yet? Have you reported it to the police? 

[Tippaporn]

1 hour ago, Gaccha said:

 

Firstly, are you sure you are aware of all his assets? He could have stocks, crypto or money, other funds in foreign banks and so on. Did you obtain access to any notes or books or items on his computer which reveal this? 

 

Have you gained full access to all his furniture and objects etc? Did you access his room which he lived? Did the hospital pass you all the property he had on his death? Did his "friend" assist with this? 

 

With regard to the 50,000 baht. Do you know where it went? Do you know who got it? Have you asked for its return yet? Have you reported it to the police? 

 

I'm in possession of his 5 laptops.  He attempted to write a will and listed all of his assets.  So that part is easy.

 

I'll be confronting the perp after we have an administrator.  I don't think he'll balk at returning any monies he embezzled.  The consequences if charged and convicted are not worth 50,000 baht.  I'm sure he can do the math.

[Robin]

Further advice from yesterday.   Make sure have everything in writing;  Every contact with banks, opposition solicitors,...  If you think that "Edward" has any possessions of "George,'  warn him in writing that everything of George legally either belongs to George or to "Alice" and is 'sub judice' until probate is obtained.  Keep copies and a diary of all communication with Edward, and try to avoid any more contact that is necessary; leave that to the solicitors.

never mind if  Edward take offence; do what you think is legal and best for Alice and George.

At the risk of being wrong, I would hang on to every single thing of George's and not let Edward or anyone except your appointed solicitors have anything.  If Edward get somehing relevant and then looses it, it is gone for ever.  If you have kept it by mistake, you can always return it later and apologise for your mistake.

We have to hope now that Edward was just an interfering 'chancer,' and will now see that there is nothing in this for him and quietly drop out and leave you to do the work.

George is lucky to have a friend like you to sort this out.  Good luck.