DTV or retirement visa ?

[DrJack54]

2 hours ago, Scouse123 said:

If I was to get the soft power under medical reasons, I have the ability to prove, I need to get a medical procedure done by an ENT surgeon every 4–6 months, so it could work for me.

Indeed. There are a few "genuine" candidates for soft power options.

• Muay Thai courses
• Thai cooking courses
• Sports training
• Medical treatment
• Seminars
• Music festivals 

Agents are already offering packages to places such a as Savannakhet to obtain DTV.

Ultimately this visa will be heavily abused.

I'm surprised that "Chess" is not on the soft power options listed above. 

[RoninTech]

4 hours ago, Scouse123 said:

My issue, same as other long term expats is that once it gets abused, which it will, how swift and what sweeping changes will come into effect, changing the criteria in obtaining one.

 

Aren't Non-O Retirement visas/extensions also abused all the time by people without the 800K/65K who just pay agents to fake the money in a Thai bank requirement?  Has the Non-O retirement had sweeping changes due to those abuses?

 

As long as you meet the stated requirements and don't use any sketchy workarounds I don't see why the DTV would be picked on any differently than say the Non-O retirement.

 

P.S. What a week to be a Red! 😀

[Phillip9]

5 minutes ago, RoninTech said:

Aren't Non-O Retirement visas/extensions also abused all the time by people without the 800K/65K who just pay agents to fake the money in a Thai bank requirement?  Has the Non-O retirement had sweeping changes due to those abuses?

 

The difference with those abuses is that immigration is making a lot of money off of them, so they tolerate it.  

 

Immigration seems to make nothing off the DTV and that alone could lead them to hassle DTV holders. 

[Scouse123]

13 minutes ago, RoninTech said:

 

Aren't Non-O Retirement visas/extensions also abused all the time by people without the 800K/65K who just pay agents to fake the money in a Thai bank requirement?  Has the Non-O retirement had sweeping changes due to those abuses?

 

As long as you meet the stated requirements and don't use any sketchy workarounds I don't see why the DTV would be picked on any differently than say the Non-O retirement.

 

P.S. What a week to be a Red! 😀

 

I have to agree with @Phillip9, as you are aware, immigration is directly involved, even through agents, with the Non-0 process of extensions.

 

With the DTV being granted through the MFA, the immigration noses could well get put out of joint, as if enough people move to them, it would greatly have a bearing on one of their lucrative income streams.

 

Yes, Real Madrid sorted, and Man City slaughtered, it should have been 5-0, but we will take 2-0!

 

Even at this early stage now, it's Liverpool’s title to lose, I just hope they don't fall to pieces or get injury hit, plus the contracts of Salah and Co becoming a distraction.

[Scouse123]

3 hours ago, Phillip9 said:

 

So just change back to a retirement visa if that ever happens.  No big deal.  

 

 

That's my plan, applying in Cambodia next month.

 

My retirement doesn't expire while July.

 

I want to get it before any further changes come in to play (if it gets abused, already agents arranging trips for DTV visas), and I am informed once you have it, you can just hold on to it, without using it until later in the year.

[RoninTech]

On 12/3/2024 at 9:51 AM, Scouse123 said:

I am informed once you have it, you can just hold on to it, without using it until later in the year.

 

Makes sense.  As it is now you could wait  4 years and 364 days before entering on it then come in and get 180 days and a 180 day extension on top of that.  So if you time it right the DTV can be a 6 year visa.

 

I grew up with Shankly/Paisley and never thought I'd see this kind of progression again.  Long may it continue.  🙂

[RoninTech]

On 12/3/2024 at 9:37 AM, Phillip9 said:

 

The difference with those abuses is that immigration is making a lot of money off of them, so they tolerate it.  

 

Immigration seems to make nothing off the DTV and that alone could lead them to hassle DTV holders. 

Yeah, I guess the only way they could get in on the act is if people decide to extend the DTV in-country.  I imagine most DTV'ers will just bounce out and back rather than extending to minimize any interaction with immigration.

[Scouse123]

6 hours ago, RoninTech said:

 

Makes sense.  As it is now you could wait  4 years and 364 days before entering on it then come in and get 180 days and a 180 day extension on top of that.  So if you time it right the DTV can be a 6 year visa.

 

I grew up with Shankly/Paisley and never thought I'd see this kind of progression again.  Long may it continue.  🙂

 

 

Me as well.

[Caldera]

On 12/3/2024 at 9:51 AM, Scouse123 said:

 

That's my plan, applying in Cambodia next month.

 

My retirement doesn't expire while July.

 

I want to get it before any further changes come in to play (if it gets abused, already agents arranging trips for DTV visas), and I am informed once you have it, you can just hold on to it, without using it until later in the year.

 

You mean you have a retirement extension that expires next July, with a matching re-entry permit? You plan to go to Cambodia to apply for a DTV, re-enter Thailand on your still valid retirement extension and start using the DTV after your retirement extension expires?

[DrJack54]

17 minutes ago, Caldera said:

 

You mean you have a retirement extension that expires next July, with a matching re-entry permit? You plan to go to Cambodia to apply for a DTV, re-enter Thailand on your still valid retirement extension and start using the DTV after your retirement extension expires?

I also didn't follow the post you quoted.

To activate the DTV he would need exit Thailand again to Cambodia without reentry permit and reenter Thailand with the DTV.

Perhaps current reentry permit is single reentry. 

[Scouse123]

3 hours ago, Caldera said:

 

You mean you have a retirement extension that expires next July, with a matching re-entry permit? You plan to go to Cambodia to apply for a DTV, re-enter Thailand on your still valid retirement extension and start using the DTV after your retirement extension expires?

 

That's the idea.

[Scouse123]

2 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

I also didn't follow the post you quoted.

To activate the DTV he would need exit Thailand again to Cambodia without reentry permit and reenter Thailand with the DTV.

Perhaps current reentry permit is single reentry. 

 

 

My idea was to keep the DTV delivered by email unused, and hold it until the expiry of my retirement extension.

 

My understanding is it only comes into force from the date it is first used, when granted. So , if it is dated January 2025 until January 2030, I will just lose the six months, using retirement extension until July 2025.

 

I have multiple re-entry permit.

 

That way, if I am granted the DTV, it can just take over in July from retirement extension Non-Imm O.

 

That is, if my thinking is correct.

 

What I am hoping to avoid is a load of additional clauses or changes that the government may bring in to the DTV, if they feel it isn't being used in the spirit it was granted.

 

I was basing it on this:

 

 

[DrJack54]

5 minutes ago, Scouse123 said:

My idea was to keep the DTV delivered by email unused, and hold it until the expiry of my retirement extension.

 

My understanding is it only comes into force from the date it is first used, unless it has a use by date stamped when granted.

 

I have multiple re-entry permit.

You will need to exit Thailand to Cambodia and reenter Thailand after expiry of reentry permit to activate DTV.

Out of interest for others.,

What category for DVT did you chose 

[Scouse123]

7 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

You will need to exit Thailand to Cambodia and reenter Thailand after expiry of reentry permit to activate DTV.

 

 

Yes,  I thought that.

But if I have the DTV, it would be better than risking the chance of my retirement extension having already expired, then being refused a DTV.

[DrJack54]

3 minutes ago, Scouse123 said:

 

Yes,  I thought that.

But if I have the DTV, it would be better than risking the chance of my retirement extension having already expired, then being refused a DTV.

Thinking forum will appreciate your follow up experience.

Please update after you reenter with your DVT.

I'm jealous old guy on annual extensions.

[Scouse123]

2 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

Thinking forum will appreciate your follow up experience.

Please update after you reenter with your DVT.

I'm jealous old guy on annual extensions.

 

I will let you know the outcome of both the January application and the re-entry if all goes smooth.

 

I am really focussed on getting the application right.

 

Likewise, I have just had a friend apply in the UK for DTV, they have asked him for a lot more information, including, Flight bookings, companies house records, salary records and proof he is a director.

 

 He differs from myself as he has applied for the DTV based on his company and his ability to work anywhere in the world, with a computer internet connection.

 

Fortunately for him, he has all this information to hand.

[DrJack54]

6 hours ago, Scouse123 said:

 He differs from myself as he has applied for the DTV based on his company and his ability to work anywhere in the world, with a computer internet connection

Which soft power options are you opting for

[Scouse123]

19 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

Which soft power options are you opting for

 

Medical.

 

I need a medical procedure every four months and this must be performed by an ENT specialist.

 

This procedure must be done for life.

[Rob Browder]

On 12/3/2024 at 9:37 AM, Phillip9 said:

 

The difference with those abuses is that immigration is making a lot of money off of them, so they tolerate it.  

 

Immigration seems to make nothing off the DTV and that alone could lead them to hassle DTV holders. 

I would change "tolerate" to "encourage" - as the last changes to visas (Retirement, Ed, etc) ALL led to more agent-service.   "Abuse" is just finding some outlier cases, then making media-hay out of it, to "justify" measures which create new-demand for increased agent-use.

With the DTV - those going that route should assume they will need to pay some sort of agent-service for their re-entries, or face potential problems.  And, it may cost more per-entry than what serial-visa-exempt users must pay agents per-entry at the airports (2K to 3K baht).  Hopefully, the known-safe entry points will not play these games, but I would make no bets.

[RoninTech]

18 hours ago, Rob Browder said:

With the DTV - those going that route should assume they will need to pay some sort of agent-service for their re-entries, or face potential problems.  And, it may cost more per-entry than what serial-visa-exempt users must pay agents per-entry at the airports (2K to 3K baht).  Hopefully, the known-safe entry points will not play these games, but I would make no bets.

So the legend of the prophet is true!  What else did you see in your premonition?

[tgw]

19 hours ago, Rob Browder said:

With the DTV - those going that route should assume they will need to pay some sort of agent-service for their re-entries, or face potential problems.  And, it may cost more per-entry than what serial-visa-exempt users must pay agents per-entry at the airports (2K to 3K baht).  Hopefully, the known-safe entry points will not play these games, but I would make no bets.

 

the DTV visa itself says "multiple" - theres no way going around that to charge extra.

[Briggsy]

@tgw

 

I wish you were right.

 

Please see my lengthy post of Nov 27 (on page 51) in the other DTV thread which lays out how Immigration have repeatedly denied entry to holders of multiple entry visas. So, sadly, there certainly is room for "going around that to charge extra".

[Thingamabob]

It depends on personal circumstances. In my case I am a retiree, I will not be travelling outside Thailand, and I am happy to permanently leave whatever amount is required in a dedicated bank account, currently 800k baht. A retirement visa works well for me.

 

[tgw]

8 hours ago, Briggsy said:

@tgw

 

I wish you were right.

 

Please see my lengthy post of Nov 27 (on page 51) in the other DTV thread which lays out how Immigration have repeatedly denied entry to holders of multiple entry visas. So, sadly, there certainly is room for "going around that to charge extra".

 

hmm.
your concerns are mostly based on the METV, while as I see it, the DTV represents a fundamental change of concept.

the METV was for tourists to come and do touristy things, while the "digital nomad" type of DTV is explicitly for working remote.

 

maybe it could be a good thing to come prepared with printouts of Immigration's webpages about DTV. If that fails, I also have my attorney's business card with me.

 

P.S. to directly link to a post, you can hover its date, such as "posted X hours ago" or "posted November 9" and right-click to select "copy link"

[NoshowJones]

On 11/10/2024 at 3:06 PM, Phillip9 said:

You would have to be crazy to choose a retirement visa over a DTV.  The DTV has way too many advantages -- no money in a Thai bank required, no re-entry permit needed, no fines for missing a 90 day report, no new ridiculous hoops to jump through every year,  no need to visit immigration at all for 5 years.

Don't you need a down payment of 10,000 Bt plus so much in a Thai bank account. Or is that for something else?

[Phillip9]

19 minutes ago, NoshowJones said:

Don't you need a down payment of 10,000 Bt plus so much in a Thai bank account. Or is that for something else?

 

The fee for the visa is 10,000 baht.  It's a 5 year multi entry visa.  So for me, that will work out to be much cheaper over 5 years than a retirement visa with yearly extensions and multiple re-entry permits.

 

You need to have 500,000 baht or equivalent in any bank account.  That can be in your home country bank.  You aren't required to have any money in a Thai bank.  And once you get the visa, there is no requirement to maintain that balance. 

[Chalky0w]

9 hours ago, Phillip9 said:

You need to have 500,000 baht or equivalent in any bank account.  That can be in your home country bank.  You aren't required to have any money in a Thai bank.  And once you get the visa, there is no requirement to maintain that balance. 

This is the bit that seems strange to me and wondering if it could get tightened in the future - duration of visa shortened, amount increased, minimum income required or something?

 

At the moment, there is no minimum income for remote working option and 5 years is a long time to survive on 500k so in theory you could book a cooking class and then try and “get-by” on the 500k with no other income for 5 years like the guy in the other forum trying to make 1 million baht last 14 years.
 

Not exactly beneficial to Thailand if only living on 100k a year and almost green light for people who want to setup illegal businesses, work illegally, sell drugs, etc.

 

Hope I’m wrong but like DrJack says it is a bit too easy at the moment!

[Briggsy]

10 hours ago, Chalky0w said:

This is the bit that seems strange to me and wondering if it could get tightened in the future - duration of visa shortened, amount increased, minimum income required or something?

 

At the moment, there is no minimum income for remote working option and 5 years is a long time to survive on 500k so in theory you could book a cooking class and then try and “get-by” on the 500k with no other income for 5 years like the guy in the other forum trying to make 1 million baht last 14 years.
 

Not exactly beneficial to Thailand if only living on 100k a year and almost green light for people who want to setup illegal businesses, work illegally, sell drugs, etc.

 

Hope I’m wrong but like DrJack says it is a bit too easy at the moment!

 

As mentioned many times, the duration of the visa is undoubtedly generous.

 

I don't accept a link between the 500,000 Baht or equivalent required bank balance and "people who want to setup illegal businesses, work illegally, sell drugs, etc." These people would normally have no problem showing 500,000 Baht or equivalent. And that type of person has always had a way of staying in Thailand. The DTV will have no bearing on this.

 

But, in summary, it is definitely easy, maybe too easy, to obtain the DTV and I expect tightening of the conditions at the embassies. In fact, we have already a report from Savannakhet consulate of that. Unexpectedly, any tightening will always start at the embassies and consulates closest to Thailand and then spread outwards.

[Phillip9]

12 hours ago, Chalky0w said:

At the moment, there is no minimum income for remote working option and 5 years is a long time to survive on 500k so in theory you could book a cooking class and then try and “get-by” on the 500k with no other income for 5 years like the guy in the other forum trying to make 1 million baht last 14 years.
 

Not exactly beneficial to Thailand if only living on 100k a year and almost green light for people who want to setup illegal businesses, work illegally, sell drugs, etc.

 

Anybody who will only have 500k to spend for 5 years very obviously would not be able to get that much in a bank account all at once.  That kind of person would barely ever have 10k in a bank account.

 

Any serious criminal could very easily get 10x that amount if they wanted to.  Raising that threshold is not going to keep out any criminals. 

[Chalky0w]

4 minutes ago, Phillip9 said:

 

Anybody who will only have 500k to spend for 5 years very obviously would not be able to get that much in a bank account all at once.  That kind of person would barely ever have 10k in a bank account.

 

Any serious criminal could very easily get 10x that amount if they wanted to.  Raising that threshold is not going to keep out any criminals. 

Maybe phrased poorly but wasn’t talking about professional criminals, as you say they have other options.
 

More likely is someone who has 500k but no income (e.g. gap year student, person made redundant in home country, etc.). They come with intention of staying 6 months but decide to try a “side hustle” to prolong their stay.

 

Removing the soft power options, requirement to maintain a balance to re-enter and / or ability to demonstrate a minimum (legitimate) income would reduce chance of this type of abuse.

 

Ordinarily I wouldn’t care what people do but any reports of abuse of DTVs will give IO an excuse to deny entry or demand bribes - something I don’t want!