Help needed with one question about UK frozen state pension.

[Keith5588]

17 minutes ago, Goodison said:

@Keith5588 I know which YTer your talking about. IMO if your going to go the Philippines for 6 months to reset your state pension you need more than what somebody at DWP told you on the phone. Mike Lister said he had to get his MP involved to put pressure on the DWP to acknowledge he was habitually resident in the UK and it would be easier in the UK as you have an MP and need to be habitually resident to also get back your no charge at point of use access to the NHS. 

Thank you @Goodison I totally agree with you in that concerning something like this you would need it in writing from the DWP.  I had already thought the same as you that a phone conversation is not good enough especially as many people seem to be confused. Also if you paused the YTer video at the 3 places to read the messages I really did not understand the second one.

I also agree with you that the same applies concerning the NHS, it is being regarded as permanent resident that matters, nothing to do with a period of time etc. 

[Keith5588]

6 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

My pension has remained the same as 2019, it has neither been uprated or reverted back to the pre 2016 rate.

Thank you @chiang mai. You have confirmed that the UK state pension can indeed be increased permanently to the current level. This is so confusing.

I will be in the UK early next year when I intend to start my UK state pension at age 72. Yes I have intensionally deferred. Luckily at the moment I feel very healthy and my plan is to live to 102, so another 30 years 🙂 

While in the UK I will myself contact DWP or the International Pension Centre and try to have the situation clarified in writing. 

Thanks again

[treetops]

6 hours ago, jori123 said:

as usual, a load of rubbish.  Comment please where you read that "agreement" lol

 

What are you on about?

 

The agreement is a matter of record, made into law years ago.

 

I was responding to oxo1947 who asked if anyone knew the reason(s) for this being in place.  I mentioned I didn't know the accuracy of this potential reason, but given that the purpose of these agreements is as below, it seems a valid reason, but again I don't know this, just read it somewhere in the past.

 

Quote

The main purpose of such reciprocal agreements is to protect the social security position of workers moving between the two countries during their working lives. They prevent employees, their employers and the self-employed from having to pay social security contributions to both the home state and the state of employment at the same time and ensure that such workers' rights to certain benefits are maintained.

Source Hansard

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2002-05-16/debates/ca3d00e4-fa43-4893-9c6a-c72ed71a4ea7/InternationalSocialSecurityAgreements

 

[jori123]

23 minutes ago, treetops said:

 

What are you on about?

 

The agreement is a matter of record, made into law years ago.

 

I was responding to oxo1947 who asked if anyone knew the reason(s) for this being in place.  I mentioned I didn't know the accuracy of this potential reason, but given that the purpose of these agreements is as below, it seems a valid reason, but again I don't know this, just read it somewhere in the past.

 

Source Hansard

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2002-05-16/debates/ca3d00e4-fa43-4893-9c6a-c72ed71a4ea7/InternationalSocialSecurityAgreements

 

 

 

"Can't vouch for it being true, but I read that the agreement with the Philippines was to keep the flow of healthcare staff from there to the UK sweet as the UK system would collapse without them"

 

     Yeah right !I think not ,the fact it was made 80years ago had nothing to do of keeping Filipino nurses "sweet" You read it nowhere.

[treetops]

13 minutes ago, jori123 said:

"Can't vouch for it being true, but I read that the agreement with the Philippines was to keep the flow of healthcare staff from there to the UK sweet as the UK system would collapse without them"

 

     Yeah right !I think not ,the fact it was made 80years ago had nothing to do of keeping Filipino nurses "sweet" You read it nowhere.

 

Do you just make all this up?  (rhetorical question).

 

Quote

The social security reciprocal agreement between the UK and the Philippines was signed on 27 February 1985, but the agreement did not come into force until 1 December 1989.

Source Hansard (again)

https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2003-10-22/debates/951629a8-94de-4831-b7d5-da341092ec67/StatePensionArrangementsWithThePhilippines

 

Filipino nurses have been coming here for much longer.

Source:  https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jun/25/exhibition-celebrates-untold-stories-of-filipino-nurses-in-nhs

 

Again, I'm not saying it's a fact but it's a theory that makes some sense when you look at the data rather then read your odd musings.

[jori123]

5 hours ago, prakhonchai nick said:

Of course your pension is uprated annually, because you have not told them you have returned permanently to Thailand. That is fraud!

Have a  smell of an "official letter" coming up lol

Q

If a OAP lives permanently in frozen country and receives unfrozen pension   is that fraud?
Copilot
If an OAP (Old Age Pensioner) resides permanently in a frozen country and receives an unfrozen pension, it is not inherently fraudulent. Let me explain:     DWP will not answer, but A1 will

"Has anybody ever been sanctioned/punished for receiving OAP in frozen countries?
Copilot
As of my last knowledge update, the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) in the UK has not prosecuted nor sanctioned individuals for receiving an unfrozen Old Age Pension (OAP). However, there have been instances where the DWP identified underpayments and took corrective action.

Here’s some context:

State Pension Underpayments Investigation:
In 2020, the DWP became aware of married, widowed, and over-80 individuals who had not received their State Pension increases as required by law.

 

    25 pence extra when hitting 80
Not only but also  OAP is not sanctionable/punishable and a disqualifying benefit    untouchable 

Edited 17 hours ago by jori123

[jori123]

4 minutes ago, treetops said:

 

Do you just make all this up?  (rhetorical question).

 

Source Hansard (again)

https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2003-10-22/debates/951629a8-94de-4831-b7d5-da341092ec67/StatePensionArrangementsWithThePhilippines

 

Filipino nurses have been coming here for much longer.

Source:  https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jun/25/exhibition-celebrates-untold-stories-of-filipino-nurses-in-nhs

 

Again, I'm not saying it's a fact but it's a theory that makes some sense when you look at the data rather then read your odd musings.

Not musings old chap, impossible to comprehend your set piece bunkum

[Keith5588]

On 11/24/2024 at 8:52 PM, ballpoint said:

 

It looks like countries that have a lot of citizens working in the UK make these deals to protect their rights.  So the large number of Filipina nurses in the UK could very well be the reason.  I can't see Thailand doing such a deal to protect UK citizens here unless they get something out of it too.

 

"The UK has agreements with some other countries to protect the social security rights of workers moving between the 2 countries.

These are sometimes known as ‘bilateral agreements’ or ‘reciprocal agreements’.

If you live in one of the following countries and receive a UK State Pension, you will usually get an increase in your pension every year:

Barbados
Bermuda
Bosnia-Herzegovina
Gibraltar
Guernsey
the Isle of Man
Israel
Jamaica
Jersey
Kosovo
Mauritius
Montenegro
North Macedonia
the Philippines
Serbia
Turkey
USA
The UK has social security agreements with Canada and New Zealand, but you cannot get a yearly increase in your UK State Pension if you live in either of those countries".

 

Countries where we pay an annual increase in the State Pension - GOV.UK

 

 

And, in order to "unfreeze" your pension, you must return to the UK, not to one of the agreement countries, such as the Philippines.

 

"Your State Pension will only increase each year if you live in:

the European Economic Area (EEA)
Gibraltar
Switzerland
countries that have a social security agreement with the UK (but you cannot get increases in Canada or New Zealand)
You will not get yearly increases if you live outside these countries.

Your pension will go up to the current rate if you return to live in the UK".

 

If you later return to, say, Thailand, your pension will go back to the old frozen amount.

 

State Pension if you retire abroad: How your pension is affected - GOV.UK

 

Thanks for the information and links  @ballpoint   

I have a query about one point. In your post you state

"And, in order to "unfreeze" your pension, you must return to the UK, not to one of the agreement countries, such as the Philippines."

Can I ask where this came from?

Because we have conflicting conclusions I am wondering if to permanently increase your state pension to a new current frozen amount amount this is true and so going to the Philippines for 185 days would not work but going to the UK would?

 

[Keith5588]

On 11/24/2024 at 8:52 PM, ballpoint said:

 

It looks like countries that have a lot of citizens working in the UK make these deals to protect their rights.  So the large number of Filipina nurses in the UK could very well be the reason.  I can't see Thailand doing such a deal to protect UK citizens here unless they get something out of it too.

 

"The UK has agreements with some other countries to protect the social security rights of workers moving between the 2 countries.

These are sometimes known as ‘bilateral agreements’ or ‘reciprocal agreements’.

If you live in one of the following countries and receive a UK State Pension, you will usually get an increase in your pension every year:

Barbados
Bermuda
Bosnia-Herzegovina
Gibraltar
Guernsey
the Isle of Man
Israel
Jamaica
Jersey
Kosovo
Mauritius
Montenegro
North Macedonia
the Philippines
Serbia
Turkey
USA
The UK has social security agreements with Canada and New Zealand, but you cannot get a yearly increase in your UK State Pension if you live in either of those countries".

 

Countries where we pay an annual increase in the State Pension - GOV.UK

 

 

And, in order to "unfreeze" your pension, you must return to the UK, not to one of the agreement countries, such as the Philippines.

 

"Your State Pension will only increase each year if you live in:

the European Economic Area (EEA)
Gibraltar
Switzerland
countries that have a social security agreement with the UK (but you cannot get increases in Canada or New Zealand)
You will not get yearly increases if you live outside these countries.

Your pension will go up to the current rate if you return to live in the UK".

 

If you later return to, say, Thailand, your pension will go back to the old frozen amount.

 

State Pension if you retire abroad: How your pension is affected - GOV.UK

 

Thanks for the information and links  @ballpoint   

I have a query about one point. In your post you state

"And, in order to "unfreeze" your pension, you must return to the UK, not to one of the agreement countries, such as the Philippines."

Can I ask where this came from?

Because we have conflicting conclusions I am wondering if to permanently increase your state pension to a new current frozen amount amount this is true and so going to the Philippines for 185 days would not work but going to the UK would?

[Andycoops]

On 11/24/2024 at 12:04 PM, Keith5588 said:

Hi, I would love to know the answer to this.

 

The amounts I use are not meant to be exact.

Personally I think freezing the UK pension depending upon which country you decide to live is wrong but for this post I don’t want a big discussion about whether you should inform the DWP or not.

The UK state pension is now classed as a benefit and so you should inform the DWP where you are living by law.

So I am assuming that you totally inform the DWP everything.    I am not prepared at the moment to contact the DWP directly.

 

I will use an example.

A 75 year old UK male started his UK state 10 years ago in 2014 receiving £100 per week and came to Thailand. His pension was frozen and so he is still receiving £100 per week.

If he lived in the UK, the Philippines or other countries that have an agreement so that the UK pension is not frozen he would now be receiving £200 pw.

The man goes to the Philippines and immediately informs the DWP that he is there. His pension is increased to £200 pw. 185 days later he returns to Thailand and stays in Thailand for future years.

 

A Youtuber and some other people has said that this mans UK state pension will remain at £200 pw for future years.

 

I disagree, after this man returns to Thailand I think that his UK state pension will revert to the original frozen level of £100 pw. Maybe it will stay at £200 pw until the end of the UK fiscal year and then revert back to the original frozen level of £100 pw but that is irrelevant for this discussion.

 

I am only basing what I think on reading different forums in the past, there has been a lot of discussion, partitions, lobbying in the House of Commons etc.

There must be many UK elderly expats who have been living in Thailand and receiving a frozen UK state pension for 10 years or more. If these people could spend 185 days in the Philippines or the UK to permanently change their UK state pension to the current larger amount when they return to live in Thailand they would be very silly not to do so if they can. I have never read of anyone doing this.

Also for me and many others the frozen pension would not be much of a problem if after some large pension increases like the last few years you can receive these increases by taking a 185 day holiday to the Philippines!

 

So the question is:-

In the future, let’s say 3 years from now is this man’s UK state pension £100 pw or £200 pw

The problem with your scheme is that about every 2 years, at random, a form is sent to you to return to DWP.

It must be signed by you and also witnessed with the witnesses official stamp.

 

While you are in Thailand and have vacated your new official address in the Philippines, the proof of life form will go unanswered and your pension will be stopped.

[Keith5588]

1 minute ago, Andycoops said:

The problem with your scheme is that about every 2 years, at random, a form is sent to you to return to DWP.

It must be signed by you and also witnessed with the witnesses official stamp.

 

While you are in Thailand and have vacated your new official address in the Philippines, the proof of life form will go unanswered and your pension will be stopped.

@Andycoops  I did state that you that you totally inform the DWP everything so they would know that you are back in Thailand. In the YouTube I mentioned it was also on the condition that you fully informed DWP of where you were living. 

[worrab]

On 11/24/2024 at 9:38 PM, Denim said:

Put another way.

 

A man starts receiving his state pension.

 

He stays in the UK for 4 years and receives the annual increase.

He then honestly informs the DWP that he is retiring to Thailand.

 

The question  therefore is , if he retires to Thailand does he receive his pension plus the annual increases or , once  he departs the UK does his pension drop back to his original first amount ?

 

What a can of worms !

He will receive whatever he was getting as a pension at the time of leaving the UK. 
For example, he started off with a pension of £200. 4 years later he is receiving £300 through the annual increases. This is the amount the pension will be frozen at. £300.

[BritManToo]

14 minutes ago, Andycoops said:

The problem with your scheme is that about every 2 years, at random, a form is sent to you to return to DWP.

It must be signed by you and also witnessed with the witnesses official stamp.

 

While you are in Thailand and have vacated your new official address in the Philippines, the proof of life form will go unanswered and your pension will be stopped.

Yeah, but that happens to the legit overseas claimants as well, if you don't tell them you ever left the UK, no proof of life forms ever.

[hotandsticky]

15 minutes ago, Keith5588 said:

Thanks for the information and links  @ballpoint   

I have a query about one point. In your post you state

"And, in order to "unfreeze" your pension, you must return to the UK, not to one of the agreement countries, such as the Philippines."

Can I ask where this came from?

Because we have conflicting conclusions I am wondering if to permanently increase your state pension to a new current frozen amount amount this is true and so going to the Philippines for 185 days would not work but going to the UK would?

 

 

 

Personally, and based on a wooly reply from DWP, I would say not. The pension would revert to the original frozen amount.

[leonard beaven]

On 11/24/2024 at 12:04 PM, Keith5588 said:

Hi, I would love to know the answer to this.

 

The amounts I use are not meant to be exact.

Personally I think freezing the UK pension depending upon which country you decide to live is wrong but for this post I don’t want a big discussion about whether you should inform the DWP or not.

The UK state pension is now classed as a benefit and so you should inform the DWP where you are living by law.

So I am assuming that you totally inform the DWP everything.    I am not prepared at the moment to contact the DWP directly.

 

I will use an example.

A 75 year old UK male started his UK state 10 years ago in 2014 receiving £100 per week and came to Thailand. His pension was frozen and so he is still receiving £100 per week.

If he lived in the UK, the Philippines or other countries that have an agreement so that the UK pension is not frozen he would now be receiving £200 pw.

The man goes to the Philippines and immediately informs the DWP that he is there. His pension is increased to £200 pw. 185 days later he returns to Thailand and stays in Thailand for future years.

 

A Youtuber and some other people has said that this mans UK state pension will remain at £200 pw for future years.

 

I disagree, after this man returns to Thailand I think that his UK state pension will revert to the original frozen level of £100 pw. Maybe it will stay at £200 pw until the end of the UK fiscal year and then revert back to the original frozen level of £100 pw but that is irrelevant for this discussion.

 

I am only basing what I think on reading different forums in the past, there has been a lot of discussion, partitions, lobbying in the House of Commons etc.

There must be many UK elderly expats who have been living in Thailand and receiving a frozen UK state pension for 10 years or more. If these people could spend 185 days in the Philippines or the UK to permanently change their UK state pension to the current larger amount when they return to live in Thailand they would be very silly not to do so if they can. I have never read of anyone doing this.

Also for me and many others the frozen pension would not be much of a problem if after some large pension increases like the last few years you can receive these increases by taking a 185 day holiday to the Philippines!

 

So the question is:-

In the future, let’s say 3 years from now is this man’s UK state pension £100 pw or £200 pw

My understanding is that,when returning to UK domain you will be paid the full entitlement,however when you leave that domain,you will be frozen at the current rate.I do not know the timeline for this,but you can visit DWP's site for all the info.

[hotandsticky]

11 minutes ago, leonard beaven said:

My understanding is that,when returning to UK domain you will be paid the full entitlement,however when you leave that domain,you will be frozen at the current rate.I do not know the timeline for this,but you can visit DWP's site for all the info.

 

 

It isn't on their website.

 

If you have a link to prove me wrong I will be happy.

[Keith5588]

8 minutes ago, leonard beaven said:

My understanding is that,when returning to UK domain you will be paid the full entitlement,however when you leave that domain,you will be frozen at the current rate.I do not know the timeline for this,but you can visit DWP's site for all the info.

Thanks @leonard beaven. I am starting to change my mind and also think it possible to change to a frozen higher amount.

Take my original example except change to going to the UK instead of the Philippines. After arriving in the UK you make 100% sure that DWP catagorises you as permanent resident. 

You then stay in the UK for another 185 days. You then telephone DWP and tell them that you are going to go and live in Thailand and have flight booked on xxxxxx.  What does the DWP staff do?  Do they just process your state pension to be frozen at the rate you are receiving?  Or do they investigate that you actually had a frozen state pension previously while living in Thailand.

I now think it quite possible that they will just start to freeze it at the current higher amount.  

[MRMOUSE]

21 hours ago, prakhonchai nick said:

Of course your pension is uprated annually, because you have not told them you have returned permanently to Thailand. That is fraud!

If they want to check it's quite easy.Passport details are available plus activity on uk bank account registered for council tax voters role etc

[john donson]

it is disgusting if you contributed 30-40 years into the system.. my own home country is the same, cutting benefits

 

while getting older, you don't use SS benefits your paid for, life long and not using the expensive healthcare at home...

[BritManToo]

14 minutes ago, MRMOUSE said:

If they want to check it's quite easy.Passport details are available plus activity on uk bank account registered for council tax voters role etc

1. I don't show them my passport (and nobody in the UK has the right to see it)

2. I don't use my UK bank account for overseas transactions

3. Only the first 2 people in a property pay council tax

4. Electoral role has quite a few people missing from it, including the homeless

 

I haven't lived at my UK home address for 16 years, nor does anyone I know.

My bank, the DWP, HMRC, Passport Office, credit check agencies et al, haven't noticed yet.

 

While it may seem quite easy for them to check all this stuff, for some reason they don't. 

Edited 15 minutes ago by BritManToo