People who support Cashless Society

[pub2022]

The ultimate goal is total control over our lives, and the transfer of wealth (and power) from our pockets into those of an ever-decreasing number of individuals. This is going to happen through the digitalization of every aspect of our life: Central Bank Digital Currency (CBDC), cashless society, digital ID, digital wallet, face scan, digital footprint and so on.

[Sir Dude]

35 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Going completely cashless is supremely dumb for so many reasons, let's have a look at some:

1. The first and most obvious reason for not doing it is that we, the public, are handing far too much power over to banks, corporations, and governments... and we all know what a bunch of bankers they all are. I'm uncomfortable with the bank and government knowing every tiny little thing I spend money on... might lead to social scoring (even secretive) like in China where if you spend too much, in their eyes, on say beer or something, you lose points and become less socially viable. That is a dangerous and dystopian road.

Kind of agree - but an extremely paranoid outlook.

 

It's not paranoid, it's speculative, already happening in China and other dictatorships. Secondly, how do we know the same isn't happening to a lesser extent with Western corporations and governments... especially in the US. Just because you don't know about it, doesn't mean it's not happening in one form or another (think Edward Snowdon). Not saying I'm right, but we just don't know because all governments now just deny everyhing until exposed.

35 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

3. There needs to be a currency that can be used in troubled times, barring complete and utter collapse of society and it's instituations... cash is it. What will you do if the internet goes out? How about no electricity?

If society collapses, cash will lose value very quickly - and how will you get it (unless you are holding $100,000's in a bunker, in which cases its already massively depreciated.

No electricity - you're not getting it out of an ATM then !

 

I did say "barring"... although, otherwise your answer is sound.

 

35 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

4. Satellites can go down and malfunction, bad actors can cut internet cables under the sea, unleach EMP weapons etc. etc. How about if there is a huge solar storm or coronal mass ejection that hits the earth just right.... only a matter of time, remember the Carrington Event? When that happened we were lucky we were only using telegraph, as it would be very distructive if it happened again. People talk about "hardening the grid" but an estimate of how much it would cost to just harden the US grid would be $25 billion or more, plus take a massive amount of time... not sure if there is the political will for that.

Societal collapse - your cash is worthless anyway - are you holding gold bars in that case ?

 

An EMP or solar storm might cause electronic systems to go down, but maybe not "societal collapse", that would take more... but it would cause a law & order problem, which would be solved by the armed forces being deployed. As for gold, no, gold bars would be a bad idea... you are better off with lower value gold and silver sovereigns to be honest, much more useful.

 

 

 

35 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

6. People say it will cut down on criminality, but in all honesty, the more we digitize everything, the more fraud, hacking, and online scamming is happening... so the criminality would simply shift online, not go away.

Crytpo has already countered that - so the argument is moot.

 

Crypto is vulnerable too in some ways and does facilite criminality as well... but also, no electricity or internet = no crypto.

 

35 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

7. The removal of the right to privacy, which some might argue has already vanished... would be undoubably gone, period, but I kind of covered that a little in number 1.

I still use cash as much as possible as I dislike, and don't trust, the authorities and banks not to use the information for some end, or just sell it whilst they build up a financial profile of everyone. Look what an information treasure trove the cash handout apps are or the Covid app was... can find out almost anything out about everyone. Bet the intellignece agencies were have a party when you combine those with all the data people freely share about themselves on social media too... facepalm.

Think I'm paranoid? Think of all the corporate data centers that are being set up everywhere, and all the intelligence agencies around love data and info because, well, you know the old phrase "Knowledge is power". I bet most people would be astonished if they knew how many corporate and government agencies knew so much about their lives in tiny details.

The ship has sailed - everyone is already using every little piece of information and it will get worse.

Decentralisation is your solution, but with the levels of paranoia in your comments, it could be argued that governments ban crypto -  there are a lot of changes coming I think.

 

Whilst I agree with what you say, I don't think it's too paranoid... I'm not a conspiracy theorist, just know how these agencies act and their well-known lack of accountability, and they have been exposed time and again. Whatever the truth is, you can be sure we are not being told it IMO.

 

[watchcat]

On 12/7/2024 at 3:58 PM, Nick Carter icp said:

Cash ? Isn't that old paper stuff that they used to use in the old days ?

Usually had the Kings picture on it and you used to have to carry around with you ?

 

5- 1en years ago.

[watchcat]

24 minutes ago, SpaceKadet said:

You mean, like in China where CCP sees all, hears all, tells you what to do and how to behave.

 

If so they follow the law very poorly or are very stupid people

[Upnotover]

On 12/9/2024 at 7:30 AM, save the frogs said:

and how can anyone pay for a hooker?

[BritManToo]

2 hours ago, Sir Dude said:

3. There needs to be a currency that can be used in troubled times, barring complete and utter collapse of society and it's instituations... cash is it. What will you do if the internet goes out? How about no electricity?

If electricity goes the only form of 'cash' will become shelf stable foods and bullets.

And you'll wish you had built a bunker to keep all the food in.

 

Can't imagine anyone wanting bit of paper!

[Sir Dude]

Just now, BritManToo said:

If electricity goes the only form of 'cash' will become shelf stable foods and bullets.

And you'll wish you had built a bunker to keep all the food in.

 

Can't imagine anyone wanting bit of paper!

 Whilst true what you say, you also missed the word "barring". If the electricity/internet goes out for a week or two, then cash would be it.

[BritManToo]

2 hours ago, Sir Dude said:

7. The removal of the right to privacy, which some might argue has already vanished... would be undoubably gone, period, but I kind of covered that a little in number 1.

I still use cash as much as possible as I dislike, and don't trust, the authorities and banks not to use the information for some end, or just sell it whilst they build up a financial profile of everyone. Look what an information treasure trove the cash handout apps are or the Covid app was... can find out almost anything out about everyone. Bet the intellignece agencies were have a party when you combine those with all the data people freely share about themselves on social media too... facepalm.

Think I'm paranoid? Think of all the corporate data centers that are being set up everywhere, and all the intelligence agencies around love data and info because, well, you know the old phrase "Knowledge is power". I bet most people would be astonished if they knew how many corporate and government agencies knew so much about their lives in tiny details.

The best way to keep your privacy is not to be all that interesting.

[BritManToo]

15 minutes ago, Sir Dude said:

 Whilst true what you say, you also missed the word "barring". If the electricity/internet goes out for a week or two, then cash would be it.

Depends where and when, if it's in the UK or USA and it's winter, there would be little chance of surviving more than a week, maybe two for a few amateur survivalists (no bunker). Shops keep less than 3 days supplies, and the distribution centers all need electricity and comms to work. Your oil fired central heating gone as well, you need electricity to work the fuel pump. Hope you have a solid fuel stove and coal/coke/wood to burn in it.

 

Rural Thailand you could probably survive forever, as they're not that reliant on the modern world.

 

Look in your kitchen, and guess how long you could last on what you have outside the fridge and freezer? and your taps won't work without electricity. Don't you wish you had spent 700bht on a big sack of rice and 300bht on a ceramic water straw? 

[LivingNThailand]

Interesting fact.  In 1970 Ira Levin wrote a novel called This Perfect Day.  In this book about the future, people had little codes embedded into their wrists, and when they wanted to buy something or do something, they had to scan their wrists across a scanner.   If the scanner didn't like what they were buying or doing, the person would be rejected.   Obviously there is a lot more to the story, but the first time I saw UPC codes in the 1980s, all I could think was "It's started."

Progress.   A very interesting read.  I read it in high school in the 70s. 

 

[Sir Dude]

10 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Depends where and when, if it's in the UK or USA and it's winter, there would be little chance of surviving more than a week, maybe two for a few amateur survivalists (no bunker). Shops keep less than 3 days supplies, and the distribution centers all need electricity and comms to work. Your oil fired central heating gone as well, you need electricity to work the fuel pump. Hope you have a solid fuel stove and coal/coke/wood to burn in it.

 

Rural Thailand you could probably survive forever, as they're not that reliant on the modern world.

 

Look in your kitchen, and guess how long you could last on what you have outside the fridge and freezer? and your taps won't work without electricity. Don't you wish you had spent 700bht on a big sack of rice and 300bht on a ceramic water straw? 

 

I can probably last about a week with normal stuff, as keep enough food and water for 7 days all the time... I also like the outdoors and get into the countryside, so have military MREs with FRHs ordered from Shopee that could last another week too... yeah, outdoor nerd here, I know.

And, on top of that, you could stretch that out to more than 3-4 weeks by fasting and only eating once a day and getting your body to survival mode... so it would be possible. Although, as you say, in freezing cold countries, you would be further challenged by the temperature... but here in Thailand, good to go.

[richard_smith237]

Ok - so who's got a bunker full of baked beans, biscuits, water and loo-roll ???

 

 

Its all getting a bit dooms-day preppy for an intelligent discussion on pros vs cons of cashless payments.

[Sir Dude]

12 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Ok - so who's got a bunker full of baked beans, biscuits, water and loo-roll ???

 

 

Its all getting a bit dooms-day preppy for an intelligent discussion on pros vs cons of cashless payments.

 

I attempted to address your concerns to my last post with you as best I can... but I stand by my assertion that going completely cashless is folly for so many reasons. I was distracted by someone else... but what I posted on the topic still stands for me.

[richard_smith237]

15 minutes ago, Sir Dude said:

I attempted to address your concerns to my last post with you as best I can... but I stand by my assertion that going completely cashless is folly for so many reasons. I was distracted by someone else... but what I posted on the topic still stands for me.

 

Agreed....  I also object to business going cashless and considerate it a foolish business model to exclude any potential customer, yet I have been to shops which do not accept cash any more.

 

It doesn't impact me (as I'm primarily cashless anyway) - but if I saw two options, I'd use the shop that accepted cash over the one thats cash-less only.

 

As you mentioned - its key to maintain choice. 

 

[Sir Dude]

8 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Agreed....  I also object to business going cashless and considerate it a foolish business model to exclude any potential customer, yet I have been to shops which do not accept cash any more.

 

It doesn't impact me (as I'm primarily cashless anyway) - but if I saw two options, I'd use the shop that accepted cash over the one thats cash-less only.

 

As you mentioned - its key to maintain choice. 

 

 Agree too, despite our slight differences... there is much common ground on some things. o7

[Lacessit]

I don't worry too much about government surveillance. Bureaucrats are naturally nosy, the strategy is to give them minimum information, and stay under the radar.

 

Having said that, governments hate cash because they don't know who has it, or what it is being spent on.

 

I use cashless in Australia, and cash here. It's a matter of convenience.

 

I think of it as having two strings to my bow. People who go cashless entirely are up the proverbial creek without a paddle if their bowstring breaks.

[Nick Carter icp]

2 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I don't worry too much about government surveillance. Bureaucrats are naturally nosy, the strategy is to give them minimum information, and stay under the radar.

 

 

   There's some bureaucrat  sitting in his Government office in Canberra taking an interest in that pepperoni pizza you just ordered  

[Chwooly]

On 12/8/2024 at 1:29 AM, Patong2021 said:

The OP presents an image of an someone who is afraid of advances and who is unable to understand the benefits cashless transactions bring to the marketplace. No more time wasted on tills counting change, reduced likelihood of petty thefts , reduced likelihood of armed robbery and an ease of administration. The paranoid scenarios described are all possible now in a world where cash can still be used. 

 

The only place I still have to use cash is in Thailand and it is a nuisance. I just don't like handling currency, particularly in places where their are infectious diseases. The sooner Thailand moves to  POS technology, the easier it will be.  I am an honest person and pay my taxes, so I have no need to hide my transactions in bitcoin or cash.

 

The only bonafide reason to maintain some cash capability is to respond when there is a power failure and e commerce cannot be pursued. As  e commerce systems become more redundant  and safer, the risk reduces. As it is now, even in a cash option society, , we cannot access the cash in saving institutionswhen there is a power failure  because the withdrawals cannot be processed.

 

So being afraid of getting an infectious disease from cash is not paranoid?  When has using cash caused major outbreaks of life threatening illnesses? 

 

The time it takes for an electric transaction to go thru, I have already paid cash and moved on to my next destination. With the increased reliance on e-commerce hackers are an even bigger threat now and getting even bigger. 

 

But hey you keep pushing for a cashless society, honestly it isn't that big a deal to me as I am sure I will be long gone before they are able to fully implement it globally 

 

[Airalee]

2 hours ago, BritManToo said:

If electricity goes the only form of 'cash' will become shelf stable foods and bullets.

And you'll wish you had built a bunker to keep all the food in.

 

Can't imagine anyone wanting bit of paper!

 

[Patong2021]

5 hours ago, Chwooly said:

So being afraid of getting an infectious disease from cash is not paranoid?  When has using cash caused major outbreaks of life threatening illnesses? 

 

The time it takes for an electric transaction to go thru, I have already paid cash and moved on to my next destination. With the increased reliance on e-commerce hackers are an even bigger threat now and getting even bigger. 

 

But hey you keep pushing for a cashless society, honestly it isn't that big a deal to me as I am sure I will be long gone before they are able to fully implement it globally 

 

 

A touchless transaction is the fastest possible transaction. A wave of the card over the scanner and it is done.

Hackers are going after bank accounts  and are relying on consumers to input their own data. The security exposure exiists whether or not one uses a credit card.

 

I am not afraid of handling money and carry a  few thousand baht with me,, but do welcome an opportunity to reduce the likelihood of direct contact.  The link between transmission of infectious disease and  physical objects, in this case, coins and banknotes  is well documented. The beauty of touchless  transactions is that one does not need to key in anything, nor handle dirty objects. 

 

Paper money and coins as potential vectors of transmissible disease

Future Microbiol. 2014;9(2):249-61.  Emmanuel Angelakis 1, Esam I Azhar, Fehmida Bibi, Muhammad Yasir, Ahmed K Al-Ghamdi, Ahmad M Ashshi, Adel G Elshemi, Didier Raoult

 

Banknotes recovered from hospitals may be highly contaminated by Staphylococcus aureus. Salmonella species, Escherichia coli and S. aureus are commonly isolated from banknotes from food outlets. Laboratory simulations revealed that methicillin-resistant S. aureus can easily survive on coins, whereas E. coli, Salmonella species and viruses, including human influenza virus, Norovirus, Rhinovirus, hepatitis A virus, and Rotavirus, can be transmitted through hand contact. 

 

Stability of pathogens on banknotes and coins: A narrative review.

Meister TL, Kirchhoff L, Brüggemann Y, Todt D, Steinmann J, Steinmann E.J Med Virol. 2023 Dec;95(12):e29312. 

 

Profile of bacteria and fungi on money coins.

Kuria JK, Wahome RG, Jobalamin M, Kariuki SM. East Afr Med J. 2009 Apr;86(4):151-5. 

 

Detection of virulence genes in Staphylococcus aureus isolated from paper currency.

Kumar JD, Negi YK, Gaur A, Khanna D.Int J Infect Dis. 2009 Nov;13(6):e450-5. 

 

Contamination of coins and banknotes as sources of transmission of parasitic pathogens: a pilot study from Iran.  Hajipour N, Moosavy MH, Rostamzadeh B, Hajibemani A.Public Health. 2020 Sep;186:116-118. 

 

 

[save the frogs]

17 hours ago, SpaceKadet said:

 

You mean, like in China where CCP sees all, hears all, tells you what to do and how to behave. Thanks, but no thanks.

China is safer than USA, isn't it?

Human beings are dangerous creatures and need to be watched.

 

[jimmybcool]

11 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

China is safer than USA, isn't it?

Human beings are dangerous creatures and need to be watched.

 

China is safer than the USA? 

[save the frogs]

5 minutes ago, jimmybcool said:

China is safer than the USA? 

yes!

and a much bigger population and still less crime. 

they should stick cameras up people's butts as far as i'm concerned. 

[jimmybcool]

1 minute ago, save the frogs said:

yes!

and a much bigger population and still less crime. 

they should stick cameras up people's butts as far as i'm concerned. 

 

Well yeah unless you protest your government out loud like Tiananmen Square. 

 

But I agree certain areas of USA are not safe.  Mostly because we are so stupid when it comes to enforcing laws against crime.  China would jail you for stealing a jar of pickles.  Some parts of USA won't even stop you stealing $900 worth of merchandise walking out the door. 

 

I believe where I live is probably safer than most areas in China.

[BritManToo]

17 hours ago, SpaceKadet said:

 

You mean, like in China where CCP sees all, hears all, tells you what to do and how to behave. Thanks, but no thanks.

China has way more freedom than the UK.

[degrub]

555, both have their issues. As long as you act and speak consistent with the party, yes you are free. Don’t have that issue in the UK, last i heard.

[SpaceKadet]

5 hours ago, save the frogs said:

China is safer than USA, isn't it?

Human beings are dangerous creatures and need to be watched.

 

 

5 hours ago, BritManToo said:

China has way more freedom than the UK.

Yes, and those who do not toe to the party line, just simply disappear. Sometimes they re-appear months later after being "re-educated", but that doesn't happen often.

[BritManToo]

20 minutes ago, SpaceKadet said:

 

Yes, and those who do not toe to the party line, just simply disappear. Sometimes they re-appear months later after being "re-educated", but that doesn't happen often.

Does anyone really care which bunch of criminals rule their  country?

Would I fight Putin to support Starmer, no!

Would I fight for Trump to oppose Harris, no!

They're all the same, I have no power to choose, so I don't care who is in charge.

You keep your head down and live your life as best as you can.

 

One jackboot looks much the same as another.

 

[Njoku]

On 12/9/2024 at 7:38 AM, SAFETY FIRST said:

I've always used my Wisdom, Kasikorn credit card for almost all purchases, even 99 baht 2lt milk from Tops. My credit card points accumulating with every purchase. 

 

 

I've got nothing to worry about, no concerns whatsoever, I've got nothing to hide. 

 

While I like cashless, I still like cash to be around, its nice that the Thai government has set a date to be totally cashless but they and the rest of the world need to be able to supply reliable electricity and Internet, why the twin tower terrorists or any other for that matter haven't woken up to disabling internet or power supplies is beyond me, like we are so geared towards the net now....

[rickudon]

I use contactless in some locations that are more trustworthy and do not charge a fee for using a card. But mainly use cash - which i get direct from a human in a bank here in Thailand once a month. Pay by phone? Phone apps are too flaky (rely on wifi or phone signal, not always good). I reckon at least 10% of actions on my phone fail - have to repeat and sometimes more than once. If just browsing it is just annoying, but for paying for stuff or internet communications it can be VERY annoying. And what happens if your phone breaks down, runs out of battery or gets stolen? Too many ifs.

 

In the UK 3 months ago, was on holiday and needed to use a car park for overnight parking - only accepted coins - and you needed a lot! There was a phone option but it rarely worked. Spent half an hour every morning making single purchases with bank notes (from an ATM) to raise the coin cash!

 

Have on 3 occasions (over many years) not been able to get money from an ATM because internet link not working - Once had no cash and had to find someone to borrow money as needed for travel needs. Also had ATM out of funds, and wonder where the next ATM was. I live in a village - cash is main means of payment