Looming Crisis: Private Schools Face Closures Amid VAT Hike

[Will B Good]

Interestingly, one of the benefits of private schools closing will be these amazing, wonderful, first class teachers from the private sector, who achieve the most amazing results can now move into the state sector and uplift all the results in the academies and state schools.

 

Whatevs.

[RayC]

1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

 

A goal that they will miss

 

Just like the will miss the goal of 1.5 million new homes over the next 5 years.

 

 

The answer will become clear between now and the start of the next years school year.

 

Any projections / forecasts between those 2 points is nothing more than an opinion.

 

Your final paragraph summarise nicely what precedes it.

 

1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Which means nothing. The proof in the pudding will be the final borrowing figures for financial year april 2025 - April 2025. Which is tracking towards £200 Billion.

 

The figure could be £300bn, £400bn, whatever. As I explained, in itself it is meaningless.

 

1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Interest rates have no bearing on the majority of UK government debt. The 10, 5 & 2 year gilt rates dictate the majority of UK Government debt servicing costs.

 

Simply not correct. UK bonds - including 10-year gilts - mature and are re-issued at regular intervals. Falling interest rates obviously reduce the cost of borrowing.

 

1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

Perhaps less posting, more researching might be in order.

 

I couldn't agree more. I'll leave you to get on with it.

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, RayC said:

Simply not correct. UK bonds - including 10-year gilts - mature and are re-issued at regular intervals. Falling interest rates obviously reduce the cost of borrowing.

 

You best tell the UK Government, the Treasury and the BOE then

 

Quote

The budget deficit is financed by the sale of government bonds. These are essentially interest paying “IOUs” which the government sells to investors. Purchasers of government bonds include pension funds, insurance companies, households and overseas investors. The bonds make up most government debt

 

The Bond or guilt price dictates the cost of debt repayment, not interest rates.

 

Despite pointing you in right direction, you felt a need to double down on your error.

 

I can only assume that you are clueless or a paid Labour shill.

[RayC]

3 hours ago, James105 said:

 

I think this is what is known as a "straw man" argument with zero basis in fact.   I am only tribalistic about my football team and if Labour actually did anything good I would for sure applaud them for it.   Have they done anything good though? No.  Are they going to pretty much destroy the country economically and culturally on the current trajectory?  Probably.   

 

I have never seen a more calamitous start to a government than these clowns have managed to do starting almost on day one after promising to "clean up" parliament only to get caught with their fat fingers in Lord Allis cookie jar.   It has gone drastically downhill since that moronic start.  

 

Even the most tribalistic football fans are capable of criticizing their football teams if they are not playing well, but for some reason that doesn't seem to apply to people who support a political party in the same way.  

 

I think that this is called self-incriminating evidence.

[RayC]

3 hours ago, ukrules said:

 

Exactly, why not introduce VAT on all food and other VAT exempt items, that'll raise lots of extra funds.

It's only fair after all, isn't it?

 

 

What would have been fair is if you hadn't taken my comment out of context, but instead had included the preceding paragraph of the exact same comment, namely:

 

"The imposition of VAT is a mess. Imo very few sectors e.g. food, sanitary products should be VAT exempt."

 

Puts a whole different complexion on things, doesn't it?

 

[RayC]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

Callous, what about SEND children where state schools do not have sufficient provision. There's been enough links to this already and you still ignore it.

 

I am not being callous and the reason I 'ignored' this issue is simply because I overlooked it due to the sheer volume of notifications which I am receiving. 

 

If a child is unable to be educated within the state system for whatever reason, then the state should finance the cost of educating the child i.e. the parents should not have to pay 

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

If a child is unable to be educated within the state system for whatever reason, then the state should finance the cost of educating the child i.e. the parents should not have to pay 

 

And as has been pointed out by at least 3 posters, the LA's will have to pay to send those SEND pupils back to the very same schools that the parents have just taken them out of due to the VAT raid.

 

Which means less money to spend on Public Services.

 

Another reason why the income raised by the VAT raid is neglible at best.

[RayC]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Incorrect - in Belgium: 

Primary Education: Approximately 54.18% of students were enrolled in private primary schools as of 2019.

Secondary Education: In 2022, about 59.21% of students attended private secondary schools.

 

Regarding General Population Demographics (info is a snapshot from once city).

- Belgian Nationals with Belgian Background: Approximately 48.48%

- Belgian Nationals with Foreign Background: About 34.76%

- Non-Belgian Residents: Around 15.88%

 

As your comment suggest - this aligns with your comment that a significant proportion of non-Belgians are in Private Schools. 

 

However, your point is a moot distraction - Tax is not applied to the private schools. 

 

 

Using the Belgium example:  Commercial Education Providers are:

- Private tutoring companies

- Online learning platforms offering subscription-based or paid courses (e.g., for coding, business skills, etc.)

- Institutes providing specialised training (culinary schools, driving schools, or IT certification programs)

- For-profit international schools

 

Not 'Private Schools'...

 

-----

 

Regarding, Germany and Poland, they are being used as 'test cases' as they deviate from EU VAT rules by applying exemptions for private education providers too broadly. They extend exemptions to for-profit, commercial entities and activities not strictly defined as public-interest education under the EU VAT Directive. 

 

Again, this is about 'commercial providers' (similar to those listed above) and not specifically Private Schools themselves. 

 

 

Do you a source/ links?

 

I can only assume that 'Private schools' includes religious schools and the like which are funded by the state.

[Bkk Brian]

18 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

I am not being callous and the reason I 'ignored' this issue is simply because I overlooked it due to the sheer volume of notifications which I am receiving. 

 

If a child is unable to be educated within the state system for whatever reason, then the state should finance the cost of educating the child i.e. the parents should not have to pay 

If the school has closed as a result of the VAT charge and there is no suitable placement in her catchment area then that's not possible is it .....

[scottiejohn]

5 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

If the school has closed as a result of the VAT charge and there is no suitable placement in her catchment area then that's not possible is it .....

So those councils will have to meet those children's needs from their resources won't they?

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

So those councils will have to meet those children's needs from their resources won't they?

Eh? Tell that to the parents who have already said there are no suitable placements for there SEND child.

[scottiejohn]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

Eh? Tell that to the parents who have already said there are no suitable placements for there SEND child.

That is why I said The Councils will HAVE to provide a replacement system!

[Bkk Brian]

5 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

That is why I said The Councils will HAVE to provide a replacement system!

But they haven't.......lol, that's the point. One of the reasons this is going to high court. So hopefully this human right issue will be addressed by the court and the whole VAT introduction stopped. A total balls up by Labour

 

 

UK: private school VAT row to reach High Court

https://thepienews.com/uk-private-school-vat-row-to-reach-high-court/

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

4 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

This investment you mean ?
 

 

 

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/labours-first-budget-after-the-dust-has-settled-heres-what-we-know/

 

We have a very different viewpoint on what investing in State Schools actually means.

 

Perhaps you could explain what the extra £2.3 Billion allocated to education ( covering only 2 things ) is  going to do for this ?
 

Its from your favourite Guardian 😀😀

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/dec/27/revealed-children-in-england-studying-in-unfit-school-buildings-crumbling-infrastructure

 

It would appear that they have invested £1 Billion in a small segment of State School pupils and £1.3 Billion in pay rises.

 

 

Thank you for providing an example of Labour dealing with the consequences of the past 14 years of underfunding schools and education.

 

 

[RayC]

46 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

You best tell the UK Government, the Treasury and the BOE then

 

The Bond or guilt price dictates the cost of debt repayment, not interest rates.

 

Despite pointing you in right direction, you felt a need to double down on your error.

 

I can only assume that you are clueless or a paid Labour shill.

 

50 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

You best tell the UK Government, the Treasury and the BOE then

 

 

The Bond or guilt price dictates the cost of debt repayment, not interest rates.

 

Despite pointing you in right direction, you felt a need to double down on your error.

 

I can only assume that you are clueless or a paid Labour shill.

 

I mentioned yesterday that I would prefer to keep our exchanges civil, but you have obviously decided to decline my offer.

 

Do you have any idea what a gilt (bond) is and how they work? It's a rhetoric question. 

 

Fortunately, the House of Commons has produced a simple guide. I suggest you educate yourself by reading it

 

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/what-are-gilts-a-simple-guide/#:~:text=When the government needs to,when the gilt 'matures'.

 

I have addressed each and every one of your direct questions. You have been extremely selective in addressing mine, and introduced additional information into the discussion which, being generous, is tangential. I assume that you do so in order to deflect attention away from your lack of knowledge.

 

I'm done providing 'free' education to you. Another charitable person will have to take up the slack. Alternatively, you can pay for it. Warning: The provider may have to impose VAT.

 

Happy New Year.

[The Cyclist]

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Eh? Tell that to the parents who have already said there are no suitable placements for there SEND child.

 

What will happen is the the LA's will have to send the SEND kids back to the school that their parents have just taken them out of.

 

So a quick lesson for Rachel from Customer Services

 

The funding for STATE school kids is £7000 a year.

 

Mr & Mrs pay for their SEND kid to be educated at XXX school at a cost of £20k a year.

 

Vat at 20% takes that to 24k a year which they cannot afford, so remove the child and off to state school you go.

 

The State school does not have the resources to deal with the SEND kid, so the kid will get sent back to the school it has just left.

 

The £4k Vat the Government thought they were getting is now gone. The LA now picks up the £24k a year school fees.

 

No £4000 VAT take and a bill for £24k.

 

Its brilliant, every parent of SEND pupils will be doing it 😀😀

 

[Chomper Higgot]

41 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

I am not being callous and the reason I 'ignored' this issue is simply because I overlooked it due to the sheer volume of notifications which I am receiving. 

 

If a child is unable to be educated within the state system for whatever reason, then the state should finance the cost of educating the child i.e. the parents should not have to pay 

There is a statutory duty for local authorities to provide education for the children within their catchment area.

 

Something else that suffered in the 14 years of Tory austerity.

 

[RayC]

@Bkk Brian @richard_smith237

 

You have addressed points to me but apologies, I will not give you the courtesy of a direct reply as I am spending far too much time on this board (and this thread in particular) and am drawing a line under things now.

 

Happy New Year to you both.

[Chomper Higgot]

37 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

And as has been pointed out by at least 3 posters, the LA's will have to pay to send those SEND pupils back to the very same schools that the parents have just taken them out of due to the VAT raid.

 

Which means less money to spend on Public Services.

 

Another reason why the income raised by the VAT raid is neglible at best.

Perhaps in some cases that is correct, in all cases?

 

Let us know when you have the actual numbers.

[The Cyclist]

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Thank you for providing an example of Labour dealing with the consequences of the past 14 years of underfunding schools and education.

 

 

 

The only example I provided was where the Labour investment in State schools were going

 

£1 Billion for SEND pupils

 

£1.3 Billion for teacher pay rises.

 

£2.3 Billion for next year.

 

I see that as investment in 2 things connected to education. Not investment is State Schools.

[Bkk Brian]

5 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

There is a statutory duty for local authorities to provide education for the children within their catchment area.

 

Something else that suffered in the 14 years of Tory austerity.

 

There is a statutory duty for local authorities to provide education for the children within their catchment area.

 

So perhaps they should do that first before forcing other school closures because of the VAT policy they brought in. Forcing a SEND child to now not have the adequate support they desperately need.

[The Cyclist]

4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Perhaps in some cases that is correct, in all cases?

 

Well, to play devils advocate, if it was me, that is exactly what I would be doing and saving myself £24k a year.

 

I wonder how many parents of SEND pupils will think the same way. After confirming that the local State School cannot provide.

[richard_smith237]

12 minutes ago, RayC said:

@Bkk Brian @richard_smith237

 

You have addressed points to me but apologies, I will not give you the courtesy of a direct reply as I am spending far too much time on this board (and this thread in particular) and am drawing a line under things now.

 

Happy New Year to you both.

 

Back at you - Its been an interesting debate... 

 

Clearly our opinions differ and I'm sure neither of our opinions will change - though some of the content you have provided, gives me pause for thought, this is not quite as black and white / right and wrong as maybe initially considered, there are huge number of variables as to whether or not this is a good move for education on a whole. 

 

 

[scottiejohn]

20 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

But they haven't.......lol, that's the point. One of the reasons this is going to high court. So hopefully this human right issue will be addressed by the court and the whole VAT introduction stopped. A total balls up by Labour

 

 

UK: private school VAT row to reach High Court

https://thepienews.com/uk-private-school-vat-row-to-reach-high-court/

 

 

Sorry!

We are actually in agreement in our own ways.

I must have read an earlier post of your wrongly!

I apologise!

[Chomper Higgot]

10 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

The only example I provided was where the Labour investment in State schools were going

 

£1 Billion for SEND pupils

 

£1.3 Billion for teacher pay rises.

 

£2.3 Billion for next year.

 

I see that as investment in 2 things connected to education. Not investment is State Schools.

Which do you object to?

 

The £1Billion increase funding for SEND Pupils is precisely where the critics are complaining the problems will be.

 

The funding increase suggests the Government are targeting this particular educational need.

This increase in spending raises the schools budget to, in real terms, just above where it was in 2010, level the last Labour Government achieved and that the Tories chose to let slide despite repeated promises to maintain funding. 
 

Also on the way, the roll out of Breakfast Clubs in primary schools.

 

Labour keeping manifesto promises.

[richard_smith237]

10 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

14 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Perhaps in some cases that is correct, in all cases?

 

Well, to play devils advocate, if it was me, that is exactly what I would be doing and saving myself £24k a year.

 

I wonder how many parents of SEND pupils will think the same way. After confirming that the local State School cannot provide.

 

There is also the option of enrolling in a Grammar School.

 

In my view, this should be the primary choice for parents. Grammar Schools inherently filter out those who rely solely on privilege, ensuring that all students have met a rigorous academic standard by passing an entrance exam. This places the cohort among the top 10% of the country, having successfully met the stringent 11+ requirements. However, this topic diverges from the issue of paying a 20% VAT on education.

 

That said, a significant challenge with Grammar Schools today lies in the increasingly fierce competition for admission.

 

One wonders at what point a Labour government might implement policies targeting Grammar Schools, branding them as elitist for segregating students based on intelligence. Would their meritocratic foundation be viewed as incompatible with egalitarian ideals?

 

Perhaps they might decide to address future shortfalls in state education by imposing fees on Grammar School students, arguing that they are receiving privileged treatment.

 

This is one of the issues with such a government - its difficult to know where they will stop. 

Farmers are getting shafted, old people are getting shafted, private students are getting shafted...  

 

 

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

15 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Well, to play devils advocate, if it was me, that is exactly what I would be doing and saving myself £24k a year.

 

I wonder how many parents of SEND pupils will think the same way. After confirming that the local State School cannot provide.

Perhaps the increase of £1Billion on SEND education will factor in the decisions parents make.

 

perhaps too, had funding been maintained since 2010, parents would have had to take their children out of the state schools in the first place.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

There is also the option of enrolling in a Grammar School.

 

In my view, this should be the primary choice for parents. Grammar Schools inherently filter out those who rely solely on privilege, ensuring that all students have met a rigorous academic standard by passing an entrance exam. This places the cohort among the top 10% of the country, having successfully met the stringent 11+ requirements. However, this topic diverges from the issue of paying a 20% VAT on education.

 

That said, a significant challenge with Grammar Schools today lies in the increasingly fierce competition for admission.

 

One wonders at what point a Labour government might implement policies targeting Grammar Schools, branding them as elitist for segregating students based on intelligence. Would their meritocratic foundation be viewed as incompatible with egalitarian ideals?

 

Perhaps they might decide to address future shortfalls in state education by imposing fees on Grammar School students, arguing that they are receiving privileged treatment.

 

This is one of the issues with such a government - its difficult to know where they will stop. 

Farmers are getting shafted, old people are getting shafted, private students are getting shafted...  

 

 

 

 

Well you can always pass time imagining such stuff.

 

 

[The Cyclist]

5 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Which do you object to?

 

The £1Billion increase funding for SEND Pupils is precisely where the critics are complaining the problems will be.

 

The term increased funding for State Schools.

 

It increased funding for a minority of pupils and for teachers pay rises.

 

This is not funding for State Schools. This is funding for 2 aspects of State education.

 

I am not surprised that you cannot understand the difference. Actually, scrap that. I'm not.

[The Cyclist]

5 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Perhaps the increase of £1Billion on SEND education will factor in the decisions parents make.

 

You think it is only about SEND education ? A lot of it is about SEND facilities rather than the education.