Israeli military loosened rules of engagement at start of Gaza war

[simple1]

Immediately after the Oct. 7, 2023 attack on Israel by groups of Hamas-led gunmen, the military granted mid-ranking officers the authority to strike a wide range of military targets where up to 20 civilians risked being killed, the newspaper said

 

Israeli military loosened rules of engagement at start of Gaza war, New York Times reports

[Yagoda]

Damn. Talk about tying the hands of the guys on the ground. Thank god the tactical guys are humane. Where is Bomber Harris?

[Bkk Brian]

Sure Hamas changed the rules first by using its own civilians as human shields

[scottiejohn]

2 hours ago, Yagoda said:

Damn. Talk about tying the hands of the guys on the ground. Thank god the tactical guys are humane. Where is Bomber Harris?

What has Marshal of the Royal Air Force Sir Arthur Travers Harris, 1st Baronet, GCB, OBE, AFC (13 April 1892 – 5 April 1984), commonly known as "Bomber" Harris got to do with this topic?

[Nick Carter icp]

2 hours ago, simple1 said:

Israeli military loosened rules of engagement at start of Gaza war, New York Times reports

 

   Are they allowing same sex couples to get married ?

[Yagoda]

2 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

What has Marshal of the Royal Air Force Sir Arthur Travers Harris, 1st Baronet, GCB, OBE, AFC (13 April 1892 – 5 April 1984), commonly known as "Bomber" Harris got to do with this topic?

He had balls.

[scottiejohn]

1 hour ago, Yagoda said:

He had balls.

I repeat what has "Bomber Harris" of WW11 got to do with this topic?

[simple1]

3 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

What has Marshal of the Royal Air Force Sir Arthur Travers Harris, 1st Baronet, GCB, OBE, AFC (13 April 1892 – 5 April 1984), commonly known as "Bomber" Harris got to do with this topic?

 

Harris carried out carpet bombing (terror bombing) to specifically target civilians, some accuse the Israelis of also deliberately targeting civilians, including the subject OP. Churchill noted carpet bombing did not break the will of the German people, which was the intent, presumably the same applies to the Israelis. 

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, simple1 said:

 

Harris carried out carpet bombing (terror bombing) to specifically target civilians, some accuse the Israelis of also deliberately targeting civilians, including the subject OP. Churchill noted carpet bombing did not break the will of the German people,.

Do you have a link to the OP. There is nothing there to get context. A link that is not behind a paywall needed.

[simple1]

5 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Do you have a link to the OP. There is nothing there to get context. A link that is not behind a paywall needed.

 

Have tried some links, none worked on this platform. Type the OP title into your browser, should be OK

 

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, simple1 said:

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-loosened-rules-of-engagement-after-oct-7-allowing-more-civilian-deaths-ny-times/

So for one month only then the rules were tightened again. Where does it say they were deliberately targeting civilians as you claim?

[simple1]

2 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

So for one month only then the rules were tightened again. Where does it say they were deliberately targeting civilians as you claim?

 

Rules of engagement permitted killing 20 civilians for one Hamas member, I call that deliberately killing civilians, probably would also be defined a War Crime.

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, simple1 said:

 

Rules of engagement permitted killing 20 civilians for one Hamas member, I call that deliberately killing civilians, probably would also be defined a War Crime.

What you call deliberate and what IHL International law states are 2 very different realities. You really shouldn't make false claims. 

[Tropicalevo]

Come on Israel, stop pussyfooting around. Do WHATEVER it takes.

Remember - Hamas (Palestinians the last time that I looked) are fighting in order to destroy Israel.

Israel are fighting to recover hostages and avoid destruction.

 

There is only one 'baddie' in this conflict and it is not Israel.

Israel did not put supposedly 'innocent' people on top of, or in front of the terrorists.

These innocent people are the ones who put Hamas in power.

 I wonder why

[Yagoda]

5 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

What you call deliberate and what IHL International law states are 2 very different realities. You really shouldn't make false 

That's what jew hating socialists do

[thaibeachlovers]

11 hours ago, simple1 said:

 

Harris carried out carpet bombing (terror bombing) to specifically target civilians, some accuse the Israelis of also deliberately targeting civilians, including the subject OP. Churchill noted carpet bombing did not break the will of the German people, which was the intent, presumably the same applies to the Israelis. 

Just killing people never works. It only makes the survivors angry and take revenge. If terror worked, the Irish would not have resisted the English for hundreds of years.

[simple1]

14 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

What you call deliberate and what IHL International law states are 2 very different realities. You really shouldn't make false claims. 

 

It is not a false claim when IDF knowingly kills civilians. However, as with the USA the Israelis are not a signatory (no surprise)  to the relevant treaties so will never face judgement by an International Court for War Crimes.

[Bkk Brian]

4 minutes ago, simple1 said:

 

It is not a false claim when IDF knowingly kills civilians. However, as with the USA the Israelis are not a signatory (no surprise)  to the relevant treaties so will never face judgement by an International Court for War Crimes.

You made a claim that they deliberately kill civilians, you have no proof to that claim and it is perfectly legal for civilians to die in a strike based on International Law. This has been discussed numerous times in other topics.

 

Your last claim is also totally wrong. You do not have to be a signatory to have an arrest warrant out, be arrested, face trial and if found guilty face a judgement.

[simple1]

5 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

You made a claim that they deliberately kill civilians, you have no proof to that claim and it is perfectly legal for civilians to die in a strike based on International Law. This has been discussed numerous times in other topics.

 

Your last claim is also totally wrong. You do not have to be a signatory to have an arrest warrant out, be arrested, face trial and if found guilty face a judgement.

 

Again disagree. Where in international law does it state an acceptable ratio of one enemy dead to 20 civilians is OK. As I understand proportionality is the guiding rule, w1:20 is not proportional.

 

Splitting hairs; as a non signatory the citizen on that country can only be arrested in a compliant jurisdiction.

[Bkk Brian]

13 minutes ago, simple1 said:

 

Again disagree. Where in international law does it state an acceptable ratio of one enemy dead to 20 civilians is OK. As I understand proportionality is the guiding rule, w1:20 is not proportional.

 

Splitting hairs; as a non signatory the citizen on that country can only be arrested in a compliant jurisdiction.

Well you would disagree, but they are the facts and you will not find any numbers on how many for a particular incident from Rule 14 that requires a full trial with evidence to determine. 

 

Again no splitting hairs here just correcting you on the false information you provided here:

 

5 hours ago, simple1 said:

 However, as with the USA the Israelis are not a signatory (no surprise)  to the relevant treaties so will never face judgement by an International Court for War Crimes.

 

Not true as my post already stated simple1. It is possible.

[Patong2021]

19 hours ago, simple1 said:

 

Harris carried out carpet bombing (terror bombing) to specifically target civilians, some accuse the Israelis of also deliberately targeting civilians, including the subject OP. Churchill noted carpet bombing did not break the will of the German people, which was the intent, presumably the same applies to the Israelis. 

 

This is a historical inaccuracy made from the perspective of current political sensitivities. The "civilians" were actively involved in the war effort. They were willing participants in a military regime. Children as young as 10 were carrying weapons. Others were  manning AA guns, and working in logistics. Females of all ages were employed as  searchlight operators, of  radio operators, drivers,  logistics clerks. There were no non combatant civilians in the Third Reich.

 

Hamas shares that similarity. The difference though is that the Third Reich did not use their families as shields and did not intentionally sacrifice their own children for publicity  opportunities.

[placnx]

On 12/27/2024 at 12:52 PM, simple1 said:

Immediately after the Oct. 7, 2023 attack on Israel by groups of Hamas-led gunmen, the military granted mid-ranking officers the authority to strike a wide range of military targets where up to 20 civilians risked being killed, the newspaper said

 

Israeli military loosened rules of engagement at start of Gaza war, New York Times reports

Maybe this policy permitted the use of the Lavender AI program:

https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/

[simple1]

37 minutes ago, placnx said:

Maybe this policy permitted the use of the Lavender AI program:

https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/

 

Correct:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/israel-gaza-ai-database-hamas-airstrikes

[simple1]

3 hours ago, Patong2021 said:

 

This is a historical inaccuracy made from the perspective of current political sensitivities. The "civilians" were actively involved in the war effort. They were willing participants in a military regime. Children as young as 10 were carrying weapons. Others were  manning AA guns, and working in logistics. Females of all ages were employed as  searchlight operators, of  radio operators, drivers,  logistics clerks. There were no non combatant civilians in the Third Reich.

 

Hamas shares that similarity. The difference though is that the Third Reich did not use their families as shields and did not intentionally sacrifice their own children for publicity  opportunities.

 

Actually Churchill did question the morality of terror bombing - from memory one of his quotes is "have we become beasts"

[simple1]

3 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Well you would disagree, but they are the facts and you will not find any numbers on how many for a particular incident from Rule 14 that requires a full trial with evidence to determine. 

 

Again no splitting hairs here just correcting you on the false information you provided here:

 

 

Not true as my post already stated simple1. It is possible.

 

 

 

Exactly how many Israelis US citizens have been arrested, charged and jailed under Rule 14 None? In other words the relevant government would not cooperate with any party wishing to prosecute their military. Again it is not a false claim of a 1:20 ratio of permitted killing. You easily access the article to confirm contents e.g. via Reuters.

 

Pray tell which International Court can arrest US / Israelis on their home territory. Yes, of course it's likely, subject to politics, to ne arrested on Signatory counties soil.

 

No more to and fro as Mod will come along and stop the discourse i.e. "bickering"

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, simple1 said:

 

Exactly how many Israelis US citizens have been arrested, charged and jailed under Rule 14 None? In other words the relevant government would not cooperate with any party wishing to prosecute their military. Again it is not a false claim of a 1:20 ratio of permitted killing. You easily access the article to confirm contents e.g. via Reuters.

 

Pray tell which International Court can arrest US / Israelis on their home territory. Yes, of course it's likely, subject to politics, to ne arrested on Signatory counties soil.

 

No more to and fro as Mod will come along and stop the discourse i.e. "bickering"

Stop deflecting from the previous false claims you made and own up to them. 

 

Still waiting on this, none of your responses  have addressed it and instead deflected with unassociated strawman nonsense. Then state better stop discussing it because mods would deem it bickering. Weak, very weak.

 

[Patong2021]

2 hours ago, simple1 said:

 

Actually Churchill did question the morality of terror bombing - from memory one of his quotes is "have we become beasts"

 

No ,he did not question the morality of England's area bombing. Sir Winston posed a rhetorical question when he was said to have remarked; "Are we beasts? Are we taking this too far? This was in June 1943 after viewing the films of the aftermath of the air campaign on the German industrial heartland of the Ruhr. England had long refrained from area bombing, but was forced into it by the barbarism of the  Luftwaffe targeting of England. and before that Europe. The PM was haunted by Europe's failure to intervene in Austria and Czechoslavakia as Germany expanded and became more aggressive. He had understood that those failures enabled the Polish invasion and set the stage for Germany to keep going.  It is very similar to how the west has managed the aggressive Iranian state, with European appeasement front and center. The tolerance of sanction breakers such as Turkey, India and even the Europeans themselves is similar to the nations like Sweden and Switzerland who enabled the nazis.

 

He was no fool and had understood  from the early days that contingency plans had to be made to prepare against the. Reich's brutality. Multiple historians have highlighted  these plans particularly the response that was needed if the Germans used poison gas. He also stated that "Hitler and his Nazi gang have sown the wind; let them reap the whirlwind." This was after the Germans had targeted civilians and wiped out non military targets such as Warsaw and other Polish cities. Speech of 30 December 1941, from Charles Eade, ed., The Unrelenting Struggle: War Speeches by the Right Hon. Winston S. Churchill (London: Cassell, 1942), see pp. 343-345.

And on and on it went.

 

Yes, the Israeli response has been intense and yes it upsets western sensitivities. However, the Israeli response is mild and restrained compared to how the arabs, farsis and Turks wage their wars. Iraq used poison gas on Iran. Syria used chemical weapons on its own people and  dropped barrel bombs on civilian areas. Hezbollah aided and abetted the mass murder of Syrians . Iran terrorizes populations with torture, sexual violence and public executions.  Turkey has carpet bombed Kurds in Syria. Hezbollah hid its artillery in Lebanese residential  areas. Hamas did similar. Hospitals and schools became defacto military bases. You wish to apply western values to a culture that is not western. Israel understands the Arab mentality. You must crush and destroy the enemy and then offer peace. This is how it was done with Egypt and Jordan. The Arabs see compassion and restraint as weakness. They respect the masculine male. Don't think for a minute that any Arab nation or its leadership has respect for the Palestinians. They are the regions perpetual crybabies who have rebuffed multiple offers of a cessation of hostilities. If they were serious now, the Gaza war could have ended long ago. Instead the  Hamas leadership, safe in their luxury villas of Qatar keep the war going. Hamas has death squads goiing around now  executing dissenters. The videos have been leaking and are all over IG. They are dressed up in UN supplied HazMat suits and making a display of their killings. Not a word of protest from anyone in the west. It is no different  than what we are seeing now that Assad is gone with the torture chambers of Syria. No one is asking how and why Hezbollah, Russia and Iran supported such  evil.

[Nick Carter icp]

15 hours ago, simple1 said:

 

It is not a false claim when IDF knowingly kills civilians. However, as with the USA the Israelis are not a signatory (no surprise)  to the relevant treaties so will never face judgement by an International Court for War Crimes.

 

  Legitimate targets as enemy combats are in the vicinity .

When Hamas hide among civilians , those civilians become legitimate casualties of war 

[Hawaiian]

4 hours ago, Patong2021 said:

 

No ,he did not question the morality of England's area bombing. Sir Winston posed a rhetorical question when he was said to have remarked; "Are we beasts? Are we taking this too far? This was in June 1943 after viewing the films of the aftermath of the air campaign on the German industrial heartland of the Ruhr. England had long refrained from area bombing, but was forced into it by the barbarism of the  Luftwaffe targeting of England. and before that Europe. The PM was haunted by Europe's failure to intervene in Austria and Czechoslavakia as Germany expanded and became more aggressive. He had understood that those failures enabled the Polish invasion and set the stage for Germany to keep going.  It is very similar to how the west has managed the aggressive Iranian state, with European appeasement front and center. The tolerance of sanction breakers such as Turkey, India and even the Europeans themselves is similar to the nations like Sweden and Switzerland who enabled the nazis.

 

He was no fool and had understood  from the early days that contingency plans had to be made to prepare against the. Reich's brutality. Multiple historians have highlighted  these plans particularly the response that was needed if the Germans used poison gas. He also stated that "Hitler and his Nazi gang have sown the wind; let them reap the whirlwind." This was after the Germans had targeted civilians and wiped out non military targets such as Warsaw and other Polish cities. Speech of 30 December 1941, from Charles Eade, ed., The Unrelenting Struggle: War Speeches by the Right Hon. Winston S. Churchill (London: Cassell, 1942), see pp. 343-345.

And on and on it went.

 

Yes, the Israeli response has been intense and yes it upsets western sensitivities. However, the Israeli response is mild and restrained compared to how the arabs, farsis and Turks wage their wars. Iraq used poison gas on Iran. Syria used chemical weapons on its own people and  dropped barrel bombs on civilian areas. Hezbollah aided and abetted the mass murder of Syrians . Iran terrorizes populations with torture, sexual violence and public executions.  Turkey has carpet bombed Kurds in Syria. Hezbollah hid its artillery in Lebanese residential  areas. Hamas did similar. Hospitals and schools became defacto military bases. You wish to apply western values to a culture that is not western. Israel understands the Arab mentality. You must crush and destroy the enemy and then offer peace. This is how it was done with Egypt and Jordan. The Arabs see compassion and restraint as weakness. They respect the masculine male. Don't think for a minute that any Arab nation or its leadership has respect for the Palestinians. They are the regions perpetual crybabies who have rebuffed multiple offers of a cessation of hostilities. If they were serious now, the Gaza war could have ended long ago. Instead the  Hamas leadership, safe in their luxury villas of Qatar keep the war going. Hamas has death squads goiing around now  executing dissenters. The videos have been leaking and are all over IG. They are dressed up in UN supplied HazMat suits and making a display of their killings. Not a word of protest from anyone in the west. It is no different  than what we are seeing now that Assad is gone with the torture chambers of Syria. No one is asking how and why Hezbollah, Russia and Iran supported such  evil.

"The Arabs see compassion and restraint as weakness."  No truer words spoken.

My words:  "Fight fire with fire." 

[simple1]

6 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  Legitimate targets as enemy combats are in the vicinity .

When Hamas hide among civilians , those civilians become legitimate casualties of war 

 

At one stage Harris authorised "area bombing", another term used was "terror bombing' i.e. deliberate bombing of civilians, the objective being to weaken the morale of the German people, which was a failure  as was the German bombing of UK civilians.