National Socialism was a Left Wing Socialist Political Movement

Yagoda · January 2

19 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

There is no record of mass murder in a country with a socialist economy that I know of. And even if there were, there are certainly records of mass murder in countries with a capitalist economy, like my own, the USA. My point is that mass murder or racism or gender bias, although it may occur, are not fundamental cornerstones of socialism or any other economic system I know of - even capitalism.

Socialist economy? What countries have a Socialist economy and not massmurder?

AndreasHG · January 2

2 minutes ago, Yagoda said:

I cant argue

You keep on overlooking...

13 minutes ago, AndreasHG said:

Yagoda's is possibly the most childish, silly and simplistic definition of socialism and fascism that I have ever read.

Both these radical ideologies divide humanity into "good guys" and "bad guys". Dividing the humanity into good and bad guys is a typical tool used by dictators to control their subjects. It's the latin "divide et impera" ("divide to rule", "diviser pour mieux regner" in French), and it has worked since the dawn of time.

However, Yagoda completely overlooks the fact that they do so according to different and not always mutually exclusive parameters.

Socialism divides humanity into "good guys" and "bad guys" based on their social class (exploited and exploiters, workers and capitalists).

Fascism divides humanity into "good guys" and "bad guys" based on their race or nationality (Arians and non-Arians, Americans and non-Americans, etc.).

Both ideologies give priority to the greater collective good over the pure satisfaction of individual needs. The aim to achieve a greater collective good (the “social” component of these ideologies) is yet another tool used by dictators to justify the sacrifices they impose on each individual. “I deprive you of personal freedom, but it is for a greater good". The greater good of your social class in socialism, or of your ethnicity or nationality in fascism.

This tool is extremely useful to get rid of dissenters, skeptics, and those who march to a different drummer, in politics, economy, arts, etc. Any "exploited" who disagrees with the socialist dictator (or "Arian" with the fascist dictator) is easily and quickly dismissed and labelled as antisocial. Often the final destination of these individuals has been the mental hospitals, both in the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany.

Both ideologies give dictators wide freedom to get rid of their opponents, which is why most dictatorships embraced Socialism's class struggle or Fascism's nationalism to gain control of their subjects.

The "Class enemies" or the "enemies of the people" must be annihilated, being them exploiters, profiteers, Jews, gypsies, blacks, homosexuals, immigrants, foreigners, sociopaths or antisocials.

Anyone, at any time and at the sole discretion of the ruling socialist or fascist party, may be assigned to one of the aforementioned categories. Re-education and extermination are synonymous, because they lead to the same result, either in a Gulag or Konzentrationslager.

Yagoda · January 2

24 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

It did not result in a socialist economy. So, if it did start as a socialist movement, it wasn't successful.

Your contention is that National Socialist Germany was not a Socilaist economy? How do you justify that statement?

Yagoda · January 2

14 minutes ago, AndreasHG said:

Yagoda's is possibly the most childish, silly and simplistic definition of socialism and fascism that I have ever read.

Both these radical ideologies divide humanity into "good guys" and "bad guys". Dividing the humanity into good and bad guys is a typical tool used by dictators to control their subjects. It's the latin "divide et impera" ("divide to rule", "diviser pour mieux regner" in French), and it has worked since the dawn of time.

However, Yagoda completely overlooks the fact that they do so according to different and not always mutually exclusive parameters.

Socialism divides humanity into "good guys" and "bad guys" based on their social class (exploited and exploiters, workers and capitalists).

Fascism divides humanity into "good guys" and "bad guys" based on their race or nationality (Arians and non-Arians, Americans and non-Americans, etc.).

Both ideologies give priority to the greater collective good over the pure satisfaction of individual needs. The aim to achieve a greater collective good (the “social” component of these ideologies) is yet another tool used by dictators to justify the sacrifices they impose on each individual. “I deprive you of personal freedom, but it is for a greater good". The greater good of your social class in socialism, or of your ethnicity or nationality in fascism.

This tool is extremely useful to get rid of dissenters, skeptics, and those who march to a different drummer, in politics, economy, arts, etc. Any "exploited" who disagrees with the socialist dictator (or "Arian" with the fascist dictator) is easily and quickly dismissed and labelled as antisocial. Often the final destination of these individuals has been the mental hospitals, both in the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany.

Both ideologies give dictators wide freedom to get rid of their opponents, which is why most dictatorships embraced Socialism's class struggle or Fascism's nationalism to gain control of their subjects.

The "Class enemies" or the "enemies of the people" must be annihilated, being them exploiters, profiteers, Jews, gypsies, blacks, homosexuals, immigrants, foreigners, sociopaths or antisocials.

Anyone, at any time and at the sole discretion of the ruling socialist or fascist party, may be assigned to one of the aforementioned categories. Re-education and extermination are synonymous, because they lead to the same result, either in a Gulag or Konzentrationslager.

Thanks for proving me right. BTW, who were the enemies in Mussolinis Fascist Italy?

Yagoda · January 2

28 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

It did not result in a socialist economy. So, if it did start as a socialist movement, it wasn't successful.

What is a Socialist economy? Planned? Ddidnt the National Socialists have a Planned Economy, state enterprises and control over all private enterprises? Were not the industrialists forced to adhere to the National Socialist line?

All economic systems have variations. Is the USA capitalist system the same as Germany's?

May I assume you have read the National Socialist Party Program?

WDSmart · January 2

18 minutes ago, Yagoda said:

Your contention is that National Socialist Germany was not a Socilaist economy? How do you justify that statement?

I justify it from what I've read about it. Also, here is a link with more details... Why National Socialism Was NOT Socialism – Resisting Hate

Yagoda · January 2

2 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I justify it from what I've read about it. Also, here is a link with more details... Why National Socialism Was NOT Socialism – Resisting Hate

Your link doesnt work.

Ill be happy to educate you on the economic aspects.

They took down our debate due to format. But, do you dispute the fact that you agree with most of my analysis?

Yagoda · January 2

7 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Your post will get deleted for formating. Here is the NSDAP program, from Wikpedia. Ill bold the important parts

The 25-point Program of the NSDAP

[edit]

We demand the union of all Germans to form the Greater Germany on the basis of the people's right to self-determination enjoyed by the nations.
We demand equality of rights for the German people in its dealings with other nations; and abolition of the peace treaties of Versailles and St. Germain.
We demand land and territory (colonies) for the sustenance of our people and colonization for our surplus population.
None but members of the nation may be citizens of the state. None but those of German blood, whatever their creed, may be members of the nation. No Jew, therefore, may be a member of the nation.
Whoever has no citizenship is to be able to live in Germany only as a guest and must be regarded as being subject to foreign laws.
The right of voting on the state's government and legislation is to be enjoyed by the citizen of the state alone. We demand therefore that all official appointments, of whatever kind, shall be granted to citizens of the state alone. We oppose the corrupting custom of parliament of filling posts merely with a view to party considerations, and without reference to character or capability.
We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to nourish the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) must be excluded from the Reich.
All immigration of non-Germans must be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans, who have immigrated to Germany since 2 August 1914, be required immediately to leave the Reich.
All citizens of the state shall be equal as regards rights and obligations.
The first obligation of every citizen must be to productively work mentally or physically. The activity of individual may not clash with the interests of the whole, but must proceed within the framework of the whole for the benefit for the general good. We demand therefore:
Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery.
In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice of life and property that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment due to a war must be regarded as a crime against the nation. Therefore, we demand ruthless confiscation of all war profits.
We demand nationalization of all businesses which have been up to the present formed into companies (trusts).
We demand that the profits from wholesale trade shall be shared out.
We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.
We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.
We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of land rent and prevention of all speculation in land.
We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, profiteers and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race.
We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.
The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the state must be striven for by the school [Staatsbürgerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the state of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.
The state is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.
We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.
We demand legal opposition to known lies and their promulgation through the press. In order to enable the provision of a German press, we demand, that:

a. All writers and employees of the newspapers appearing in the German language be members of the race;

b. Non-German newspapers be required to have the express permission of the state to be published. They may not be printed in the German language;

c. Non-Germans are forbidden by law any financial interest in German publications or any influence on them and as punishment for violations the closing of such a publication as well as the immediate expulsion from the Reich of the non-German concerned. Publications which are counter to the general good are to be forbidden. We demand legal prosecution of artistic and literary forms which exert a destructive influence on our national life and the closure of organizations opposing the above made demands.
We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our nation can only succeed from within on the framework:

THE COMMON INTEREST OVER INDIVIDUAL INTEREST^[13]
For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Reich within the various states of the confederation. The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration.

WDSmart · January 2

3 minutes ago, Yagoda said:

Your link doesnt work.

Ill be happy to educate you on the economic aspects.

They took down our debate due to format. But, do you dispute the fact that you agree with most of my analysis?

Here is the link again...Why National Socialism Was NOT Socialism – Resisting Hate

IMO, socialism ONLY has economic aspects. It is a type of economy and can exist in virtually any type of government: a democracy, republic, dictatorship, or monarchy, but not a plutocracy.

They took our debate down? Wow! I hadn't noticed. But, if they did because we were embedding our replies within a former comment, I'll quit doing that, although I thought that made the exchange easier to follow.

Yagoda · January 2

5 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Here is the link again...Why National Socialism Was NOT Socialism – Resisting Hate

IMO, socialism ONLY has economic aspects. It is a type of economy and can exist in virtually any type of government: a democracy, republic, dictatorship, or monarchy, but not a plutocracy.

They took our debate down? Wow! I hadn't noticed. But, if they did because we were embedding our replies within a former comment, I'll quit doing that, although I thought that made the exchange easier to follow.

It did, but regardlesss, you confuse Socialism with Social Democracy.

WDSmart · January 2

10 minutes ago, Yagoda said:

It did, but regards, you confuse Socialism with Social Democracy.

No, I understand socialism as an economic system. So is capitalism and communism.

Democracy is a governmental system. So is a republic, dictatorship, monarchy, and plutocracy.

You can mix most economic systems with most governmental systems. The only exception I know of is socialism and communism with a plutocracy since in socialism and communism, there would be no wealthy people.

My country, the USA, has an economy that is a mix of capitalism and socialism. That's called Keynesian economics. The arguments are usually not for one or the other, but what the proper ratio of the mix should be. The USA does not have a democracy, but something closer to a democratic republic. However, the democratic part is restricted to only some but not all citizens, and the rules vary from state to state. And those rules tend to make the governmental system close to a plutocracy.

Yagoda · January 2

Just now, WDSmart said:

No, I understand socialism as an economic system. So is capitalism and communism.

Democracy is a governmental system. So is a republic, dictatorship, monarchy, and plutocracy.

You can mix most economic systems with most governmental systems. The only exception I know of is socialism and communism with a plutocracy since in socialism and communism, there would be no wealthy people.

My country, the USA, has an economy that is a mix of capitalism and socialism. That's called Keynesian economics. The arguments are usually not for one or the other, but what the proper ratio of the mix should be. The USA does not have a democracy, but something closer to a democratic republic. However, the democratic part is restricted to only some but not all citizens, and the rules vary from state to state.

My country, the USA, only has Socialistic features in terms of market interference. Socialism is an entire philosophical system: collectivism. Capitalism is individualism, but no longer pure.

Yagoda · January 2

15 hours ago, mokwit said:

It would be more accurate to askwho were the International Socialists i.e. the RotFront as that leads less room for confusion. Or are you saying the SA were the Socialists as you alluded in another post.

The SA were a very Socialist and aggressive homosexual organization.

WDSmart · January 2

4 minutes ago, Yagoda said:

My country, the USA, only has Socialistic features in terms of market interference. Socialism is an entire philosophical system: collectivism. Capitalism is individualism, but no longer pure.

In the USA, anything labeled "public" is most likely socialis features. Examples are public libraries, public schools, public hospitals, and public streets. Also most police and firefighting departments are socialist features.

AndreasHG · January 2

56 minutes ago, Yagoda said:

who were the enemies in Mussolinis Fascist Italy?

Dear Yagoda, only your abismal ignorance can catch up with your arrogance.

Mussolini add a long list of "Enemies of the people":

Anyone who opposed Mussolini.
Anyone who opposed Mussolini's plan to "Make Italy Great Again".
Anyone who jeopardized the purity of the Italian racial and cultural identity (race "Razza" in Italian)

All opposition parties were deemed "enemies of the people": Liberals, Christians, Monarchists, Republicans, Radicals, Socialists, Communists.

Make Italy Great Again meant, among other things, ensuring Italy had its empire, a fair share of the world's reaches, which was a prerequisite to gain full sovereignty.

The main obstacles of the path of securing an empire were the British Empire, its smaller allied, the French Empire, and its far away ally, the USA. According to Mussolini, these democratic countries were ruled by "plutocrats" and its citizens led a dissolute life. He called the British people "the people of five meals a day", and described them as effeminate and incapable of winning against the warriors born of the Italian race.

Like Putin today with Ukraine, he considered France presence in Tunisia as a gun pointed at Italy, a threat to its sovereignty, and to its effort to build an empire in Africa.

Make Italy Great Again meant also ensuring the purity of the Italian race and culture. American jazz was forbidden because "musica nera".

Mussolini sent Italian Jews and gypsies to German concentration camps.

Yagoda · January 2

5 minutes ago, AndreasHG said:

Dear Yagoda, only your abismal ignorance can catch up with your arrogance.

Mussolini add a long list of "Enemies of the people":

Anyone who opposed Mussolini.

Anyone who opposed Mussolini's plan to "Make Italy Great Again".

Anyone who jeopardized the purity of the Italian racial and cultural identity (race "Razza" in Italian)

All opposition parties were deemed "enemies of the people": Liberals, Christians, Monarchists, Republicans, Radicals, Socialists, Communists.

Make Italy Great Again meant, among other things, ensuring Italy had its empire, a fair share of the world's reaches, which was a prerequisite to gain full sovereignty.

The main obstacles of the path of securing an empire were the British Empire, its smaller allied, the French Empire, and its far away ally, the USA. According to Mussolini, these democratic countries were ruled by "plutocrats" and its citizens led a dissolute life. He called the British people "the people of five meals a day", and described them as effeminate and incapable of winning against the warriors born of the Italian race.

Like Putin today with Ukraine, he considered France presence in Tunisia as a gun pointed at Italy, a threat to its sovereignty, and to its effort to build an empire in Africa.

Make Italy Great Again meant also ensuring the purity of the Italian race and culture. American jazz was forbidden because "musica nera".

Mussolini sent Italian Jews and gympies to German concentration camps.

Got a source for your cut and paste? Bet it is some Socialist anti Trump article.

RetiredNavy71 · January 2

3 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

As it never reads post that contradict it's one track narrative I see little point in it reading and more importantly trying to understand and accept the contents of books which are against it's view!

Try making some sense of what you just said and stop uttering gibberish

AndreasHG · January 2

1 hour ago, Yagoda said:

The 25-point Program of the NSDAP

Yagoda, you keep on confusing...

You confuse the expansive and extravagant Trump-style Nazi campaign promises, intended to attract voters, with the policies actually implemented after Hitler's coming to power.

However, I see a merit in your logic. Here are some of the points included in the Nazi manifesto:

1 hour ago, Yagoda said:

We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to nourish the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) must be excluded from the Reich.

All immigration of non-Germans must be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans, who have immigrated to Germany since 2 August 1914, be required immediately to leave the Reich.

1 hour ago, Yagoda said:

We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.

1 hour ago, Yagoda said:

We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals

1 hour ago, Yagoda said:

The state is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child

1 hour ago, Yagoda said:

We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest.

1 hour ago, Yagoda said:

The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program

These points are integral part of Trump's manifesto. Trump promised to:

eradicate immigration,
deport illegal immigrants,
replace ObamaCare with something better, bigger and cheaper,
being tough on criminals
protect motherhood
struggle against wokes and wokeism whose activity is injurious to the general interest
reconstruct the American education system

Therefore, by applying your logic, we can safely conclude that:

many of Trump electoral promises are clearly taken from the Nazi "electoral promises play book"
Therefore Trump must be a Nazi
Nazism is Socialism
Therefore Trump must also be a socialist.

Which is a very interesting and consequential conclusion.

Yagoda · January 2

52 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

In the USA, anything labeled "public" is most likely socialis features. Examples are public libraries, public schools, public hospitals, and public streets. Also most police and firefighting departments are socialist features.

Absolutely not. Such services well predate Marx and are a function of an orderly functioning polity. Rome had public libraries.

Yagoda · January 2

10 minutes ago, AndreasHG said:

Yagoda, you keep on confusing...

You confuse the expansive and extravagant Trump-style Nazi campaign promises, intended to attract voters, with the policies actually implemented after Hitler's coming to power.

However, I see a merit in your logic. Here are some of the points included in the Nazi manifesto:

These points are integral part of Trump's manifesto. Trump promised to:

eradicate immigration,

deport illegal immigrants,

replace ObamaCare with something better, bigger and cheaper,

being tough on criminals

protect motherhood

struggle against wokes and wokeism whose activity is injurious to the general interest

reconstruct the American education system

Therefore, by applying your logic, we can safely conclude that:

many of Trump electoral promises are clearly taken from the Nazi "electoral promises play book"

Therefore Trump must be a Nazi

Nazism is Socialism

Therefore Trump must also be a socialist.

Which is a very interesting and consequential conclusion.

nice try but not very convincing.

And why pray tell are you bringing Trump into this LOL? This isnt about Trump, your obsessive derangement doesnt change the fact that you are unable to argue against my OP, all you do is spew invective.

AndreasHG · January 2

43 minutes ago, Yagoda said:

cut and paste?

Which cut and paste?

Mussolini never used the expression "Make Italy Great Again". But he wanted to restore Italy to the greatness of the ancient Roman Empire, and he clearly expressed this intention.

For this reason he tried to imitate Julius Caesar, reintroducing the ridiculous "Roman salute" and exploiting the ancient Roman ruins for military parades.

Times change, but the tools used by dictators and wannabe dictators are still the same. As the saying goes "those who don't know history are deemed to repeat it over and over again".

AndreasHG · January 2

1 minute ago, Yagoda said:

your obsessive derangement doesnt change

You must be seriously mentally sick.

This is just an example of your "sound" logic applied to real life. And if you don't like the result, it's because it's your logic to be deranged.

Yagoda · January 2

2 minutes ago, AndreasHG said:

Which cut and paste?

Mussolini never used the expression "Make Italy Great Again". But he wanted to restore Italy to the greatness of the ancient Roman Empire, and he clearly expressed this intention.

For this reason he tried to imitate Julius Caesar, reintroducing the ridiculous "Roman salute" and exploiting the ancient Roman ruins for military parades.

Times change, but the tools used by dictators and wannabe dictators are still the same. As the saying goes "those who don't know history are deemed to repeat it over and over again".

Busted.

And your point is? Tell us how National Socialism differed from Bolshevism except for the initial enemy.

AndreasHG · January 2

19 minutes ago, AndreasHG said:

Therefore, by applying your logic, we can safely conclude that:

many of Trump electoral promises are clearly taken from the Nazi "electoral promises play book"

Therefore Trump must be a Nazi

Nazism is Socialism

Therefore Trump must also be a socialist.

Which is a very interesting and consequential conclusion.

Yagoda · January 2

Just now, AndreasHG said:

You must be seriously mentally sick.

This is just an example of your "sound" logic applied to real life. And if you don't like the result, it's because it's your logic to be deranged.

Bet you still cant tell me the difference between the sytems. Keep going, its illuminating

AndreasHG · January 2

1 minute ago, Yagoda said:

Bet you still cant tell me the difference between the sytems. Keep going, its illuminating

"Idiot" suffices

LosLobo · January 2

1 hour ago, Yagoda said:

It did, but regardlesss, you confuse Socialism with Social Democracy.

Aren't you the one who is confused?

In your OP, you state that 'all precepts of socialism are based on community.'

Yet, in this subsequent reply, you claim, 'you confuse Socialism with Social Democracy.'

This seems to be a 'non sequitur' logic error and contradictory.

Social democracy doesn't seek to eliminate capitalism but to regulate it, unlike socialism, which often advocates for collective ownership and a more radical restructuring.

If socialism is defined by community, how does that square with your distinction between the two ideologies?

Yagoda · January 2

3 minutes ago, LosLobo said:

Aren't you the one who is confused?

In your OP, you state that 'all precepts of socialism are based on community.'

Yet, in this subsequent reply, you claim, 'you confuse Socialism with Social Democracy.'

This seems to be a 'non sequitur' logic error and contradictory.

Social democracy doesn't seek to eliminate capitalism but to regulate it, unlike socialism, which often advocates for collective ownership and a more radical restructuring.

If socialism is defined by community, how does that square with your distinction between the two ideologies?

That makes no sense. Social Democracy was that essentially developed by Bismarck, it does not require volksgemeinschaft nor class differentiation and does not philosophically reject individualism. Socialism mandates collectivism.

Yagoda · January 2

11 minutes ago, AndreasHG said:

"Idiot" suffices

I guess we tend to forget how enthusiastically the "Ukraine" embraced, and still does, National Socialism, although that was less on the Socialist aspect and more on the long tradition of killing Jews.

AndreasHG · January 2

32 minutes ago, Yagoda said:

I guess we tend to forget how enthusiastically the "Ukraine" embraced, and still does, National Socialism, although that was less on the Socialist aspect and more on the long tradition of killing Jews.

Ukrainian welcomed the Nazis only because they were coming from years of hunger, misery and death, under the Russian yoke.

They assumed that nothing could be worse than Russia's rule.

Fill the void that constitutes your abysmal ignorance by learning what the Holodomor was: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

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