Revenue Department boss calls on tax residents in Thailand to file 2024 returns by March 31

[4myr]

36 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I haven't filed anything, yet.

 

I went into the RD Office, as I was at the car testing station, which is next door to an RD Office, to explain my remittances ( UK Government Pension ) into Thailand and ask if I needed to file anything.

 

Her answer was yes.

 

She then went and printed off a PND 91 and filled it in for me in pencil, to use as a template. She again reiterated that I had to file and could do it at the small RD Office, rather than going back  out to the large RD Office.

 

Box 1 - Annual figure remitted

 

Box 2 - Same figure

 

Boxes 17, 19 & 20 - Zero tax to pay.

 

Easy and straightforward

 

 

The 2024 PND91 form has not yet been published online.

Did you get a 2024 form?
Can you do us a favor and make a scan of this form with your income hidden of course?

 

I try to figure out your box numbers based on the 2023 form: https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/english_form/080463PIT91.pdf

 

Is this the form the TRD lady filled in for you?

 

[oldcpu]

6 minutes ago, 4myr said:

The 2024 PND91 form has not yet been published online.

Did you get a 2024 form?
Can you do us a favor and make a scan of this form with your income hidden of course?

 

I try to figure out your box numbers based on the 2023 form: https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/english_form/080463PIT91.pdf

 

Is this the form the TRD lady filled in for you?

 

The B6 ( not shown) where one lists exempt income and then copies that to A2 is very very very limited and in my view does not address almost all exempted income for many expatriates who are tax residents to Thai.

[4myr]

I just talked to a tax advisor from my home country, who has been living in Thailand for many years.

 

He said that there is nothing on rd.go.th that says that not assessable income need not to be declared. He also agreed that the current 2023 forms do not make clear how to declare it. He advised me just to visit the local RD and present the issue. This is what @The Cyclist did.

[jwest10]

Just now, oldcpu said:

The B6 ( not shown) where one lists exempt income and then copies that to A2 is very very very limited and in my view does not address almost all exempted income for many expatriates who are rax residents to Thai.

The one posted originally and how can box 1 and 2 be the same?

[The Cyclist]

5 minutes ago, 4myr said:

The 2024 PND91 form has not yet been published online.

Did you get a 2024 form?

 

No idea, as there is no date on it.

 

6 minutes ago, 4myr said:

Is this the form the TRD lady filled in for you?

 

Appears to be exactly the same, except the form she filled in for me does not have a Part 21 or 22 as per the one you posted

[Sheryl]

45 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I haven't filed anything, yet.

 

I went into the RD Office, as I was at the car testing station, which is next door to an RD Office, to explain my remittances ( UK Government Pension ) into Thailand and ask if I needed to file anything.

 

Her answer was yes.

 

She then went and printed off a PND 91 and filled it in for me in pencil, to use as a template. She again reiterated that I had to file and could do it at the small RD Office, rather than going back  out to the large RD Office.

 

Box 1 - Annual figure remitted

 

Box 2 - Same figure

 

Boxes 17, 19 & 20 - Zero tax to pay.

 

Easy and straightforward

 

 

PND91 is for "taxpayers with Income from Employment under Section 40(1) of the Revenue Code only".

 

And line 2, exempted income, has to come from Box B which is a total of specific exemptions none of which cover the situation of income from a foreign government pension (or equivalent) that is exempt from taxation in Thailand per DTA.

 

I think filing in the manner she suggested gives the erroneous impression you work in Thailand and will lead to more problems down the line.

 

 

[Sheryl]

1 minute ago, jwest10 said:

The one posted originally and how can box 1 and 2 be the same?

 

they can be the same only if lines B1-6 total the same.

[jwest10]

1 minute ago, Sheryl said:

 

they can be the same only if lines B1-6 total the same.

Ok fair dues but just thought it a coincidence as total present allowances is either 500 or 560K Baht 

[Neeranam]

29 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Neither have I, but guess what, I will comply with what my local RD Office advises.

 

Just like I comply with my local Immigration Office, who appear to have slightly different rules from other Immigration Offices.

 

If there is 2 Offices that I'm not going to go out of my way to upset, it will be the Tax Office and Immigration Office

I understand not wanting to upset the immigration office as they can cause you inconvenience but the Tax Office had no reason to even know you exist. Voluntarily saying, "I'm here and I want to pay tax if possible" I don't understand. 

[The Cyclist]

3 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

PND91 is for "taxpayers with Income from Employment under Section 40(1) of the Revenue Code only".

 

Which contains Pensions, agreed.

 

4 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

And line 2, exempted income, has to come from Box B which is a total of specific exemptions none of which cover the situation of income from a foreign government pension (or equivalent) that is exempt from taxation in Thailand per DTA.

 

I'm not disagreeing, but I am looking at from a Reporting / declaring angle, rather than a taxpaying angle.

 

In the case of the UK Government Pension the word Exempt is not used in the DTA.

 

The DTA also does not exempt from declaring / reporting that Government pension to comply with Thai Tax Law.

 

A P60 attachment would cover the shortfall in Box B. The updated PND 90 / 91 might have that information, but would still require a paper submission to prove it.

11 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

I think filing in the manner she suggested gives the erroneous impression you work in Thailand and will lead to more problems down the line.

 

Possibly, possibly not.

 

[4myr]

8 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

The B6 ( not shown) where one lists exempt income and then copies that to A2 is very very very limited and in my view does not address almost all exempted income for many expatriates who are tax residents to Thai.

This is from a quotation I got from a Thai tax advisor. It gives an idea things he need to do to declare exempted income. He's talking about additional docs/forms to prepare exemption claims.

 

Quote

 

1. Tax Filing for Exempt Income I will handle the tax filing and ensure that your director fees and other exempt income are recognized by the Thai Revenue Department as non-taxable under the treaty.

2. Verification of Tax Treaty Provisions I'll conduct a detailed review of the relevant clauses of the DTA

3. Preparation for Tax Exemption Claims For ..., I will prepare and submit the necessary documentation to claim your tax exemptions under Thai law and the tax treaty.

 

..

 

Regarding the RD90 form for 2024 it's not published. We will use the RD90 form from 2023 as a guideline, while it can provide a general framework, each year can bring changes to the form and requirements. I will ensure that we use the most current and applicable forms and guidelines when handling your filings.

 

 

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, Neeranam said:

but the Tax Office had no reason to even know you exist.

 

C'mon think logically. I have a large Pension paid monthly into a Thai Bank account. They already know I exist, due to CRS, adopted in March 2023.

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

However, Thai tax forms contain no way to declare non-assessable income.

 

Anything declared will be assumed (and treated) as assessable. 

 

Unless this changes, the only reasonable course is to do as many have been told by their RD to do and not declare income which is nonassessable in Thailand.

Best input yet on this thread.

[The Cyclist]

3 minutes ago, 4myr said:

This is from a quotation I got from a Thai tax advisor. It gives an idea things he need to do to declare exempted income. He's talking about additional docs/forms to prepare exemption claims.

 

Quote

1. Tax Filing for Exempt Income I will handle the tax filing and ensure that your director fees and other exempt income are recognized by the Thai Revenue Department as non-taxable under the treaty.

 

That suggests multiple source income and therefore the use of the PND 90.

[Neeranam]

2 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

C'mon think logically. I have a large Pension paid monthly into a Thai Bank account. They already know I exist, due to CRS, adopted in March 2023.

I believe I am thinking logically. 

The reason the Thai tax office know you exist is because you went there to tell them. 

In my understanding, CRS does not mean that all banks must tell the tax office of every foreigner account's transactions, but means if the Thai tax authorities are investigating a particular foreigner, the bank must provide details of their remittances. Thai Tax officers have been told to investigate large companies(earning billions of baht) who were using a loophole for remittance to be tax free, not foreign OAPs remitting 2000 quid a month, of which is non taxable. However, they might investigate you now as you were naive enough to submit information that wasn't asked for. 

 

[Neeranam]

49 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

Got a pink ID card and Carl stated I could use but as there are no forms available in any case so at present can not amd will not!!1

Use it for what?

Were you charged for this information?

[JimGant]

5 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Therefore it is perfectly feasible that a Gov Pension is Reportable / Declarable for tax purposes, but is exempt from Thai Tax due to DTA.

Right now it's not. But, they could, in the future, modify the tax filing forms, and provide a line for non assessable income. This would not violate any DTAs, as it's not affecting the purpose of the DTA, namely, preventing double taxation. It's only providing a new reporting set of data (for whatever reason?).

5 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Which is why I was back at the RD Office on Monday.

Why? To see if new tax forms have been issued with line items for non assessable income? Don't you have any hobbies?

[The Cyclist]

9 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I believe I am thinking logically. 

The reason the Thai tax office know you exist is because you went there to tell them. 

 

As they did not take my name or address, during an informal chat, they still dont know I exist.

 

12 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

In my understanding, CRS does not mean that all banks must tell the tax office of every foreigner account's transactions,

 

You understand wrong.

[The Cyclist]

3 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Don't you have any hobbies?

 

Did you not understand the part where I said I was at the car testing place, and the RD Office is next door ?

 

More reading practice, less sniping from the sidelines.

[Neeranam]

4 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

As they did not take my name or address, during an informal chat, they still dont know I exist.

 

 

You understand wrong.

OK, I'm no expert. 

 

Do you know if remittances which are not cross border are sent tot the tax office, ie if someone in Thailand sends me money to my Thai bank account? 

 

[jwest10]

18 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Use it for what?

Were you charged for this information?

No none other than Carl and the local Revenue office and they do not know much more as far as when these forms come out and no did not pay for your information.

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, Neeranam said:

OK, I'm no expert. 

 

Do you know if remittances which are not cross border are sent tot the tax office, ie if someone in Thailand sends me money to my Thai bank account? 

 

 

I have no idea what happens about internal transfers within Thailand, but they will not come under CRS.

 

 

[jwest10]

31 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I believe I am thinking logically. 

The reason the Thai tax office know you exist is because you went there to tell them. 

In my understanding, CRS does not mean that all banks must tell the tax office of every foreigner account's transactions, but means if the Thai tax authorities are investigating a particular foreigner, the bank must provide details of their remittances. Thai Tax officers have been told to investigate large companies(earning billions of baht) who were using a loophole for remittance to be tax free, not foreign OAPs remitting 2000 quid a month, of which is non taxable. However, they might investigate you now as you were naive enough to submit information that wasn't asked for. 

 

Logic forget it!!!

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

There is no legal requirement to file a US tax return if no taxes owed. 

Well, one exception: You're self employed and have net income over $600.

 

But, of course, the most obvious one for no taxes owed: Your standard deduction/itemized deductions exceeds your Adjusted Gross Income. Thus, no "taxable income." (Kinda like TEDA exceeds assessable income -- except "no filing required" must be a first world concept, i.e., one with no arbitrary filing thresholds.)

 

Another is if you over withhold, or file excessive estimated taxes. Thus, Uncle Sam owes you a refund -- if you file to get it. Otherwise, don't file, let Uncle Sam keep the amount, and establish it to be about what you'd pay a tax return service. Result: A wash. This is what I've set up for the wife, for when I croak -- with an overwithholding amount approximating the cost of a tax accountant in Thailand.

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

The lady at the Revenue Office on Monday, on a PND 91

 

Box 1, Salaries, wages, pensions etc,  - put my total annual remittance.

 

After a bit of back and forwards

 

Box 2, Less exempted income - Same figure as box 1

 

Box 2 is NOT for non assessable remitted income. Here is what it is for:

 

Quote

1. Contribution to provident fund
(The part that exceeds 10,000 baht)
2. Contribution to government pension fund
3. Contribution to private school teacher fund
4. Taxpayer age over 65 years of age with
190,000 baht income exemption
5. Spouse age over 65 years of age with
190,000 baht income exemption
6. Severance pay received under the Labor Law
(In case taxpayer chooses to include in tax computation)
7. Total (1. to 6.) to be filled in A 2.  [which is Box 2]

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/english_form/frm_pnd9151_100352.pdf

 

 

[jwest10]

7 minutes ago, JimGant said:

 

Box 2 is NOT for non assessable remitted income. Here is what it is for:

 

 

 

Shock horrow see Themis Partners trying to charge 400Baht fir downloads of forms and surely these should be readily  available and none at the Revenue and any ideas anyone, please

[StayinThailand2much]

On 1/4/2025 at 3:32 AM, anchadian said:

Expats with over 180 days in Thailand must submit returns for income remitted in 2024. 

 

Define "income"... As usual clear as mud.

[jwest10]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

 

As they did not take my name or address, during an informal chat, they still dont know I exist.

 

 

You understand wrong.

What about the neighbours who know you exist and yeah there are plenty of gossip mongers???

[jwest10]

Just now, StayinThailand2much said:

 

Define "income"... As usual clear as mud.

No forms yet again?????

[mudcat]

18 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

Foreign mutual funds held in a Thai wrapper that pay dividends do so to the holding bank, not to the retail customers, which raises the NAV.

 

Of course if you're property of Uncle Sam, you declare all of that on your 1040, and might possibly get a credit for Thai tax paid.

 

IRS form 8621 is for U.S. citizens who invest in foreign mutual funds that are considered PFICs (Passive Foreign Investment Company) because the companies do not report or withhold earnings to the IRS. Filing Form 8621 has a low $25,000 asset threshold for individuals and a high tax rate that makes investing in any foreign based mutual fund tax unfriendly.