Revenue Department boss calls on tax residents in Thailand to file 2024 returns by March 31

[jwest10]

With respect they have not!!!

[OJAS]

59 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

The forms, in English, have been available for at least a year.

 

You mean the forms which we are supposed to use for 2024 TY returns? So where have we all been able to obtain them, then? I'm sure that  @jwest10 for one would welcome you providing us with a suitable link as to where those Dr Who-esque geniuses in the TRD posted their 2024 forms around this time last year if not long before. (And I do mean their 2024 forms, not their 2023, 2022, 2021, etc ones).

 

Do try and keep up with all the posts on this thread and elsewhere on this specific point, if that's no too much trouble for you.

[The Cyclist]

7 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

Are you gonna believe a rando reporter, or the TRD instructions published on the official government website?

 

Thats the 1000000 dollar question, when the RD Office told me on Monday that I had to file me UK Government Pension.

 

So who do you believe ?
 

An article that might have a translation issue

 

An RD instruction that might have a translation issue

 

Or a face to face meeting with RD Official, who not only tells me I need to file, but prints off and fills in a PND 91 to use as a template when I get round to filing.

 

When everyone is fastudiously trying to ignore Thailand joining CRS in March 2023 and the aim of avoiding / detecting tax evasion / avoidance.

 

How can you combat tax avoidance / evasion if people are not reporting their remitted income ?
 

For example

 

I remit 150,000 baht a month direct from my Government Pension provider to my Thai bank account. No red flags, and easily checkable

 

I remit that same 150,000 baht a month via wise to my Thai bank account. Red flags everywhere.

[OJAS]

18 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

With respect they have not!!!

 

Indeed they have not - although I do differ from you on the issue of according respect to the poster to whom you were replying! 

 

[oldcpu]

2 hours ago, jwest10 said:

Thank you Mutt and thought for a minute as it came out in English but can see the forms but no way convert to English as far as I can see!!
Any ideas anyone apart from getting a Thai to convert

 

 

Conversion of Thai language to English language is VERY easy (using Google translate with a browser).

 

However while such translation allows one to read the Thai forms (in English)  they are no longer in what I consider a suitable format for tax submission filing.

 

Further, when the proper English language forms come out, they could be different.

.

[oldcpu]

5 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

A P60 attachment would cover the shortfall in Box B. The updated PND 90 / 91 might have that information, but would still require a paper submission to prove it.

 

P60 ?

 

What attachment form is that?

 

Its not the "Allowance(s) and Exemption(s) after Deduction of Expense(s) attachment.  It is also not Box B "Exempted Income" in PIT.91.  

 

Further even the different PIT.90's different "Allowance(s) and Exemption(s) after Deduction of Expense(s)" attachment section has no entry that is laid out in any shape or manner to allow entry of any exemptions from DTAs, nor from money/income from before 1-Jan-2024 (per PAW-161), nor for tax exempt assessable income of LTR Visa Wealth Pensioners/Wealthy Global Citizens.

 

I believe it is with good reason that a number of us are interested to see what the 2024 Thai tax forms (PIT.90 and 91) might hold.  Currently I have yet to find any Thai tax forms that allow entry of those tax exempt items.

 

Note I am not saying to file or not to file. Rather just saying lets watch to see how this evolves so we can assess our own impact.

[NoDisplayName]

17 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Or a face to face meeting with RD Official,

 

Again, too many pages to sift through to find the info, but.......

 

Did you not attend two TRD offices, getting conflicting information?

 

One who correctly said you don't need to file, as you have insufficient assessable income to require filing, and then a lady who lied to you about declaring a tax-exempt UK pension?

 

The bad lady who lied must have read the examiner article.

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

No its not. It's money that moves across CRS borders that is of concern

FATCA, and its son, CRS, aren't interested in the movement of money. It's a "balance sheet" approach, vs a "cash flow" approach, meaning: For FATCA, if the aggregate of my Thai bank accounts exceed $50,000 at end of year (or $75,000 anytime during the year) my bank reports it, along with income earned on that money, to a Thai govt agency (TRD probably). They, then, are responsible for forwarding this info to the US. That I remitted one zillion baht during the year -- but it left my account the next day for a condo, and thus didn't earn any money -- would be reportable only because I exceeded $75,000 at one time during the year. But, no income associated. And certainly nothing that could be reportable on a Thai tax return, assuming a non assessable nature.

 

I can only assume CRS reporting is similar, i.e., interest only in financial account balances and related income. Neither FATCA nor CRS reporting could have any interest in an odd duck like remittance income, applicable only to Thailand and Malta (and UK non residents who are tax residents, or some such thing, which I won't try and understand).

 

So, for FATCA, to say banks need to report all remittances is rubbish. Reporting is only for those accounts that exceed those $50k/75k markers, whether by remittances or reinvested income.

[chiang mai]

33 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Thats the 1000000 dollar question, when the RD Office told me on Monday that I had to file me UK Government Pension.

 

So who do you believe ?
 

An article that might have a translation issue

 

An RD instruction that might have a translation issue

 

Or a face to face meeting with RD Official, who not only tells me I need to file, but prints off and fills in a PND 91 to use as a template when I get round to filing.

 

When everyone is fastudiously trying to ignore Thailand joining CRS in March 2023 and the aim of avoiding / detecting tax evasion / avoidance.

 

How can you combat tax avoidance / evasion if people are not reporting their remitted income ?
 

For example

 

I remit 150,000 baht a month direct from my Government Pension provider to my Thai bank account. No red flags, and easily checkable

 

I remit that same 150,000 baht a month via wise to my Thai bank account. Red flags everywhere.

Completely agree, I'm pretty certain that's where TRD is headed, if they are not already there.....quite rightly so. If there is not full disclosure of all remittances,  and/or, if the source of remittances is not instantly verifiable, e.g. US SSc, there wont be a check and pass and doubt will exist, especially if Wise or similar is the medium..  

[JimGant]

3 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Too much of a stretch to imagine that people might also be lying about the source of their income to avoid / evade tax. Especially those that remit income through platforms like Wise etc.

Oh, geez -- you think TRD is going to wander thru all of your reported assessable income, then thru non assessable income now required to be reported? There's a reason the term "self-assessment" was invented.

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, topt said:

Changes to tax regulations in 2023 make all income remitted to Thailand by foreign residents in the country for over 180 days last year declarable.

That's the biggest piece of horse sh** I've ever heard. Declarable, how? The tax returns are only interested in assessable income, not income exempt per DTA or Por 162. (Sorry, guess I'm beating a dead horse.)

[jwest10]

1 hour ago, OJAS said:

 

You mean the forms which we are supposed to use for 2024 TY returns? So where have we all been able to obtain them, then? I'm sure that  @jwest10 for one would welcome you providing us with a suitable link as to where those Dr Who-esque geniuses in the TRD posted their 2024 forms around this time last year if not long before. (And I do mean their 2024 forms, not their 2023, 2022, 2021, etc ones).

 

Do try and keep up with all the posts on this thread and elsewhere on this specific point, if that's no too much trouble for you.

 

 

 

OJAS thanks for your support and yes I like to think contribute a lot and yes got Carl Turner giving me grief  and yes there are sites updated but unfortunately only in Thai ie
www.rd.go.th/272.html

www.rd.go.th/65971.html in Thai 2024 only
www.rd.go.th/english/65308.html

Sorry if misspelt on the sites ok

 

 

 

in Thai only and on 

[jwest10]

46 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

Conversion of Thai language to English language is VERY easy (using Google translate with a browser).

 

However while such translation allows one to read the Thai forms (in English)  they are no longer in what I consider a suitable format for tax submission filing.

 

Further, when the proper English language forms come out, they could be different.

.

Yes and never 100%!!!

 

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, JimGant said:

That's the biggest piece of horse sh** I've ever heard. Declarable, how? The tax returns are only interested in assessable income, not income exempt per DTA or Por 162. (Sorry, guess I'm beating a dead horse.)

I don't think it is Jim, the PND 90 already shows excluded income types in section B so there's no reason to think this couldn't be expanded. Clearly, TRD IS interested in excluded or exempt income, otherwise they wouldn't ask for it to be reported.

[The Cyclist]

32 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

Again, too many pages to sift through to find the info, but.......

 

Did you not attend two TRD offices, getting conflicting information?

 

Yes. The first time in Feb 2024 for tax year 2023, no need to file.

 

Monday, for tax year 2024, told to file.

 

So, not conflicting info as different tax years.

[The Cyclist]

21 minutes ago, JimGant said:

CRS, aren't interested in the movement of money.

 

Let me ask you simple question. What is the primary aim of CRS ?

 

Let me help you out

 

Quote

The Common Reporting Standard (CRS) is an internationally agreed standard for the automatic exchange of financial account information between jurisdictions for tax purposes, to better combat tax evasion and ensure tax compliance.

 

Which leads me onto me next simple question.

 

How do you carry out the above, without people, at the very least, Reporting the income that they remit into Thailand ?
 

You protest too much Dorothy. Are you getting worried ?

[The Cyclist]

48 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

P60 ?

 

What attachment form is that?

 

A P60 is an end of year statement from the UK.

 

It details your income for the year, how much tax has been paid and what the income is for.

 

If you have 2 pensions, for example, you should get 2 x P60's, one from each pension provider.

[JimGant]

20 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Completely agree, I'm pretty certain that's where TRD is headed, if they are not already there.....quite rightly so. If there is not full disclosure of all remittances,  and/or, if the source of remittances is not instantly verifiable, e.g. US SSc, there wont be a check and pass and doubt will exist, especially if Wise or similar is the medium..

Cm, you surprise me. Full disclosure of all remittances? If source of remittances is not instantly verifiable? Last year I remitted 215000 baht -- all from a savings account fully funded with pre 2024 income. TRD doesn't have the resources to verify this -- they'll just, realistically, have to rely on my self-assessment.

 

27 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

I remit that same 150,000 baht a month via wise to my Thai bank account. Red flags everywhere.

 Red flags, maybe -- but with no realistic way for TRD to audit each and every one of such remittances. What, pray tell, do you propose that TRD does? Certainly, putting a line item on your tax return with non assessable income won't change matters. (But it could give TRD a better picture of who to audit.)

[topt]

34 minutes ago, JimGant said:

That's the biggest piece of horse sh** I've ever heard. Declarable, how? The tax returns are only interested in assessable income, not income exempt per DTA or Por 162. (Sorry, guess I'm beating a dead horse.)

In case you really did not notice it was not my view.

I was quoting posters and the article they were quoting.....

If you had read from the first page I had already said that this was from the journalist and not from the DG or the RD but most people seem to have glossed over that.

 

Now why don't you go and beat your own dead horse 

[The Cyclist]

8 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Red flags, maybe -- but with no realistic way for TRD to audit each and every one of such remittances.

 

They dont need to if they make every foreign tax resident report their income.

 

They then do the audit there and then, with you providing the answers there and then.

 

Surely everyone, has the relevant paperwork showing that they are acting within the law by not evading / avoiding taxes.

[TheAppletons]

Worst thread ever.  So much self-anxiety for no reason whatsoever which only creates anxiety for others.

 

I have no assessable income due to DTA.  I won't be filing or "declaring" my non-assessable income because it's not required according to TRD.  One only needs to file a tax return if you exceed the 60/120/220 level of assessable income.

 

Continue to self-flagellate peeps.  You're only making your own life more stressful than it needs to be.  

 

 

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, TheAppletons said:

Worst thread ever.  So much self-anxiety for no reason whatsoever which only creates anxiety for others.

 

I have no assessable income due to DTA.  I won't be filing or "declaring" my non-assessable income because it's not required according to TRD.  One only needs to file a tax return if you exceed the 60/120/220 level of assessable income.

 

Continue to self-flagellate peeps.  You're only making your own life more stressful than it needs to be.  

 

 

I am doing exactly the same thing, but eventually I will have accessible income and then of course THEN I will file if it meets the threshold. 

[JimGant]

21 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

How do you carry out the above, without people, at the very least, Reporting the income that they remit into Thailand ?

Hey, FATCA isn't interested in any remittances I make to Thailand -- they're either from my savings account (already taxed money) or from my current account (already labelled for US taxation). Why would they care if it remained in account, or if I Wised it to Thailand -- since US taxes are already a done deal?  But, they are interested in my existing financial accounts in Thailand -- and they, along with their income, will be reported if exceeding the $50/75k thresholds I previously discussed. Remittances -- and any Thai taxation -- are of no consideration.

[4myr]

51 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

I don't think it is Jim, the PND 90 already shows excluded income types in section B so there's no reason to think this couldn't be expanded. Clearly, TRD IS interested in excluded or exempt income, otherwise they wouldn't ask for it to be reported.

 

I've checked the 2024 PND90 and related exemption attachment forms https://rd.go.th/65971.html.

 

As far as I can see the exemptions have not been extended into DTA exemptions et al and are still in the scope of allowances as described in https://rd.go.th/english/6045.html.

 

 

[The Cyclist]

6 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Hey, FATCA isn't interested in any remittances I make to Thailand

 

Thats absolutely fantastic, but not what I asked you

 

Quote

The Common Reporting Standard (CRS) is an internationally agreed standard for the automatic exchange of financial account information between jurisdictions for tax purposes, to better combat tax evasion and ensure tax compliance.

 

I asked you how Thailand can comply with CRS if people do not, at the very least, Report their remitted income into Thailand ?

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

I don't think it is Jim, the PND 90 already shows excluded income types in section B so there's no reason to think this couldn't be expanded.

These "tax exemptions" are deductions against assessable income. To add non-assessable income in section B, you'd have to add non-assessable income to line A1 -- salary. Which would be bonkers.

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

9 minutes ago, JimGant said:

These "tax exemptions" are deductions against assessable income. To add non-assessable income in section B, you'd have to add non-assessable income to line A1 -- salary. Which would be bonkers.

 

Exactly!

 

Using US terminology, these "exemptions" are what we would call "deductions". In other words, deductions from assessable income.

 

Unless the RD changes PND90 and PND91 to specifically require declaration of non-assessable income, there is no way to report remittances of savings or income excluded from assessable income by DTA.

 

The only thing that has changed is the new interpretation of how remitted income may be assessable income if the income is both earned and remitted after 31 December 2023. It seems that nothing else has changed.

[chiang mai]

27 minutes ago, JimGant said:

These "tax exemptions" are deductions against assessable income. To add non-assessable income in section B, you'd have to add non-assessable income to line A1 -- salary. Which would be bonkers.

I'm not suggesting the excluded income become part of the calculation, only that it is reported on the form since there is a precedent to do so.

[oldcpu]

8 minutes ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

 

The only thing that has changed is the new interpretation of how remitted income may be assessable income if the income is both earned and remitted after 31 December 2023. It seems that nothing else has changed.

 

In regards to that, if 2024 tax form is not to be changed from 2023, it's not straightforward how that remitted money is to be entered in a tax form.

 

So we then get  this forum views of some who claim that clearly assessable income, that is tax exempt, should then be called non assessable.  And since no longer called assessable  ( in their view) it should not be reported. 

 

Frankly,  given the Thai tax forms limitations,  I don't know who is right. 

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, topt said:

In case you really did not notice it was not my view.

Sorry. Sometimes its hard to attribute a quote to the right source when I cut and paste.