Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[KhunHeineken]

19 minutes ago, Card said:

Correct. A 'government pension' is one resulting from employment by the govt. Different from a state pension.

It's been the subject of a lot of debate in the Australia Forum. 

 

Most members saw the words "pension" and "source" and "contracting state" and celebrated that their pension would be tax free. 

 

When I pointed out to one member that Article 18 relies on the "provisions" of Article 19, and asked him if he was concerned at all about those provisions, his reply was, and I quote, "Forget about Article 19." 

 

Well, it just became comical after that.  

[cjinchiangrai]

1 minute ago, thaipo7 said:

“All foreign income must be declared but this doesn’t always mean a tax liability.”  If there may be no tax, why must they know about your income.

Spoken like a true accountant. To confirm that you do not have a tax liability.

[Card]

Just now, Presnock said:

well, I thought it iwas different so googled the PI and retirement funds - they do exempt basic retirement funds - look it up.  I note on their forum that for the most part retirees don't pay taxes there.

I have already stood corrected on that issue. Look at my correction. But I would take advice if u intend to flit to the philippines 

[MikeandDow]

2 minutes ago, thaipo7 said:

“All foreign income must be declared but this doesn’t always mean a tax liability.”  If there may be no tax, why must they know about your income.

Quote :All foreign income must be declared      since When !!!

[cjinchiangrai]

Just now, KhunHeineken said:

It's been the subject of a lot of debate in the Australia Forum. 

 

Most members saw the words "pension" and "source" and "contracting state" and celebrated that their pension would be tax free. 

 

When I pointed out that Article 18 relies on the "provisions" of Article 19, and asked are you concerned at all about those provisions,  his reply was, and I quote, "Forget about Article 19." 

 

Well, it just became comical after that.  

Tax free would come under a dual taxation treaty.  The US has one, not sure about elsewhere. 

[Card]

2 minutes ago, cjinchiangrai said:

Spoken like a true accountant. To confirm that you do not have a tax liability.

It's not correct. You do not have to get a TIN or file a tax return in thailand if you only transfer funds that are not taxable in thailand and I stress 'only'

[cjinchiangrai]

2 minutes ago, MikeandDow said:

Quote :All foreign income must be declared      since When !!!

Since they passed the law that says so.

[Presnock]

1 minute ago, Card said:

I have already stood corrected on that issue. Look at my correction. But I would take advice if u intend to flit to the philippines 

Oky

 

2 minutes ago, Card said:

I have already stood corrected on that issue. Look at my correction. But I would take advice if u intend to flit to the philippines 

okay, you could probably join the Philippine forum and they too exchange a lot of useful info for folks contemplating change of locations.  As of now I am completely protected from Thai taxes so don't plan on any changes yet.  Bur, good luck to all...maybe someday the TRD will provide us with some answers and understandable tax forms.

[Moonlover]

49 minutes ago, jojothai said:

14 hours ago, Moonlover said:

Most of us are protected ....  or are drawing pensions that cannot be taxed in any other country anyway.

47 minutes ago, jojothai said:

?

I thought there are  a lot of brits here (and australians), and that is not true for the  respective DTAs.

except for government service.

UK DTA does not cover pensions (except for gov service) The OZ DTA, pension is only taxable in the contracting state that you are resident. (except gov service) . if you are resident here, that means tax in thailand.

The personal pensions will be taxable here, if remitted. but any tax paid in uk/oz can be offset. 

A standard UK state pension is just below the income tax threshold in uk, no tax paid.

but the amount is above the thresholds in Thailand, so some tax would be due here , although not very large due to allowances

 

Sorry but I've heard or read it all before and some! By taking that one small sentence out of my post, your response becomes completely out of context with what I wrote. Thank you for your effort, but you're barking up the wrong tree.

[Briggsy]

7 minutes ago, cjinchiangrai said:

We are not in the UK. Those are not the Thai rules. Follow them or go home.

You specifically asked what they do in the UK! I provided a detailed and accurate answer!

 

The cheek of you!

[cjinchiangrai]

1 minute ago, Card said:

It's not correct. You do not have to get a TIN or file a tax return in thailand if you only transfer funds that are not taxable in thailand and I stress 'only'

Suit yourself. I think it will be a few years before all of this settles in. It is pretty disorganized currently.

[Presnock]

8 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

I don't believe the Thai government has ever requested retired expats to file Thai tax returns. The wording of any official statements seems to be looking for Thai citizens to file on their overseas incomes.

 

All the claims that retired expats need to file seem to be from white crooks looking to make money from elderly and gullible foreign retirees.

well, not planning on linking any of them but many of the articles quoting the Finance folks and the TRD folks have mentioned having expate and foreigners included in the filing for taxes.  Too many articles but remember clearly.

[cjinchiangrai]

1 minute ago, Briggsy said:

You specifically asked what they do in the UK! I provided a detailed and accurate answer!

 

The cheek of you!

Not me, I do not care in the least about UK tax laws.

[Briggsy]

7 minutes ago, Card said:

You can go via the tax evasion path if u like but then u could be looking over your shoulder fir the rest if your life esp when u pass through immigration.

Where is the tax evasion???

 

I am referring to pointlessly filling in tax returns when

 

a) there is no legal requirement

b) there is no tax owing

 

There is no tax evasion.

 

The answer was in response to @cjinchiangrai 's question about self-assessment in the UK.

[Card]

1 hour ago, gamb00ler said:

Thailand may decide to tax global income.  It is very unlikely they will tax assets.

Yes sorry. I mean global earnings tax.

[KhunHeineken]

10 minutes ago, Expat68 said:

I do not understand why everyone is getting so worked up, the vast majority will not pay tax anyway and the rest will  only be minimal but of course there maybe some people who have got something to hide

Most pensions from around the world, if all of that pension is remitted each month, takes the pensioner over the tax free threshold.  Most will have some tax to pay, that means a TIN, filing, declaring, getting a certificate of clearance. 

 

Just another earner out of farang, and another hoop to jump through in order to remain living here.  

 

Many have the strategy of doing nothing, because TiT, and all of this can not / will not work, however, I first brought up that a Certificate of Clearance may be another document required at extension time.  That was "scaremongering" at the time, but now allowed to be discussed.  

 

It's the easiest way of enforcing the policy on farang.  It makes you go to them, rather than them going to you.  They will not get much out of aged pensioners, but whatever baht they get out of them will be more than what they got before, which was zero. 

 

Then, you have high net worth individuals, cha-ching. 

 

Time will tell.   

[Card]

5 minutes ago, Briggsy said:

Where is the tax evasion???

 

I am referring to pointlessly filling in tax returns when

 

a) there is no legal requirement

b) there is no tax owing

 

There is no tax evasion.

 

The answer was in response to @cjinchiangrai 's question about self-assessment in the UK.

There is a legal requirement in the uk to report taxable earnings above tax free limits annually. Just because you have not signed up fir self assessment dioes not mean you do not have to file fir tax if you have taxable income.

[gravity101]

2 hours ago, DUNROAMIN said:

What a load of BS. Until the Thai government officially sends me a written notice to my home that I need to apply for a tax file number for my overseas income, I will carry on as normal.

Why would they do that? The tax code is clear and always has been. You SHOULD be submitting and filing tax returns if you live here >179 days in a year. The only thing that changed is that new directive on taxable income in the same tax year. Don't lose sight of why this has all come up, apart from that nothing is new.

 

Enforcement of course is a different conversation, no one will do it unless forced to file, or penalties become scary enough and common enough to want to file.

[Card]

4 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Most pensions from around the world, if all of that pension is remitted each month, takes the pensioner over the tax free threshold.  Most will have some tax to pay, that means a TIN, filing, declaring, getting a certificate of clearance. 

 

Just another earner out of farang, and another hoop to jump through in order to remain living here.  

 

Many have the strategy of doing nothing, because TiT, and all of this can not / will not work, however, I first brought up that a Certificate of Clearance may be another document required at extension time.  That was "scaremongering" at the time, but now allowed to be discussed.  

 

It's the easiest way of enforcing the policy on farang.  It makes you go to them, rather than them going to you.  They will not get much out of aged pensioners, but whatever baht they get out of them will be more than what they got before, which was zero. 

 

Then, you have high net worth individuals, cha-ching. 

 

Time will tell.   

Correct. Except u don't need to obtain a TIN or file a tax return if u only remit non taxable income to thailand from abroad 

[Presnock]

29 minutes ago, Guderian said:

I already have a house in South Pattaya worth around 8 million Baht. My plan, developed during the pandemic, was to sell it, bring in another 6 million Baht or so from my offshore savings, and buy a bigger house, still in Pattaya but away from the mass tourism which has got out of control now. In theory, as the savings were in my account prior to 1/1/24, that would be tax-free, but even this snake oil salesman, Carden, admits that its still a grey area where nobody knows how it will be treated. So now, if the TRD gets aggressive with its tax plans, I'll just go the non-resident route, stay in Thailand for 170 or so days a year in future, and use the 6 million Baht to buy another house, probably in the Philippines, and stay there for around 130 days a year, so also not tax resident. The remaining 60 or so days a year I already spend in my property back in the UK, so buying one more in the PI isn't a hardship.

 

Governments need to get realistic about this, the idiots in the OECD may rant on about tax justice but to be fair it needs to be a double-edged sword. If a country wants someone to pay tax like a local then they should also offer them similar benefits to a local; the right to own land, for example, and a fast-track route to permanent residency, then maybe people like myself would be more willing to pay tax. As things stand, if global income is really to be taxed wherever you are living on the planet, then I might as well become tax resident in the UK again, at least I'd qualify for NHS treatment and prescriptions, and my state pension would be indexed.

Did you notice that there is a news item that Spain is taxing homes bought by foreigners at 100% of the value!  I note too some of the golden passport countries have cancelled their offers.  Seems more and more countries are going with new tax rules due to the OECD agreement.

[jas007]

3 hours ago, anchadian said:

If you’ve done your own calculations of what you know so far and are under the threshold, there is no need to obtain a TIN and file a tax return.

 

Again, what we already know to date. It’s as simple as that.

That would be nice.  For example, I'm sitting here minding my own business.  Between my US Social Security and my US government pension, I make far more money than I would ever remit into Thailand.  The excess stays in the USA and is invested there. Since both the Social Security benefits and the  government retirement pension is taxable only in the country of origin, per the tax treaty between the US and Thailand, by my calculations, I have no taxable income in Thailand.  It would be nice if I could leave it at that.  If need be, I can easily prove the amount I receive under each program. 

[KhunHeineken]

3 minutes ago, Card said:

Correct. Except u don't need to obtain a TIN or file a tax return if u only remit non taxable income to thailand from abroad 

The same tired old debate continues. 

 

How does the TRD know your remitted funds are of a category that is taxable, or not taxable, until you file and declare their source and amounts? 

[Presnock]

4 minutes ago, jas007 said:

That would be nice.  For example, I'm sitting here minding my own business.  Between my US Social Security and my US government pension, I make far more money than I would ever remit into Thailand.  The excess stays in the USA and is invested there. Since both the Social Security benefits and the  government retirement pension is taxable only in the country of origin, per the tax treaty between the US and Thailand, by my calculations, I have no taxable income in Thailand.  It would be nice if I could leave it at that.  If need be, I can easily prove the amount I receive under each program. 

I completely agree with your assessement of the lack of any need to get a tax ID here or to file a tax form.  I will not have any SS but my civil service pension by the DTA can only be taxed by the US govt.  Also have an LTR so exemt there too.

[Expat68]

23 minutes ago, Briggsy said:

In the UK, there is no necessity to complete a tax return unless you yourself have registered for self-assessment. Examples of those who register for self-assessment are the self-employed with a turnover of at least £1000 per year or high earners with a total income in excess of £100,000.

 

Once you have registered for self-assessment, the penalties just pile up if you do not submit a tax return.

 

If you have not registered for self-assessment, nothing happens and you are left alone unless HMRC gain some information that you should have registered for self-assessment or have some untaxed income.

 

Actually more often in the UK, HMRC actively de-register from self-assessment when there is no tax owing and no need for a tax return to reduce administration.

It is law any income above and beyond PAYE you have to fill a UK Self Assessment in. One example of this is if you rent a property out (on top which you have to fill a form in and return it to HMRC, the agent will normally return it for you)

[jonesthepost]

There is far to much confusion about this,I contacted the revenue office in Chiang mai where I have just move from to ask about change of address and tax  return . On both questions  the change of addess I can do on tax return and a tax return must be done even if I have not exceeded my allowance's. I was asked where the income came from that I transfered ,from my UK state pension and UK company pension.  So thats the info. given., maybe when I go to the Minburi office  might  get a different think, I did phone the minburi office and they refused to answer any questions on the phone and I had to go to there office, where as the Chiang mai office was very helpfull answered all the question's I  asked

[thpitsch]

The term “pension tax” does not exist in Thai law. It is also not about the taxation of pensions. If I have understood this correctly, it is about a tax on income transfers. It does not matter whether or not pensions are included. What is transferred is taxable (of course, taking into account the deductions).
In this respect, the double taxation agreements are not relevant.
The much-cited tax experts will of course continue to try to complicate the process so that they can make a decent living from it.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, thpitsch said:

The term “pension tax” does not exist in Thai law. It is also not about the taxation of pensions. If I have understood this correctly, it is about a tax on income transfers. It does not matter whether or not pensions are included. What is transferred is taxable (of course, taking into account the deductions).
In this respect, the double taxation agreements are not relevant.
The much-cited tax experts will of course continue to try to complicate the process so that they can make a decent living from it.

No.

Whether remitted income is taxable in Thailand depends on the source of the funds. Not only pensions. Since you mentioned pensions some US examples are remitted social security is not taxable but private pensions are. Refer to your nations DTA if any.

[anchadian]

Latest from Integrity Legal
 

 

[Tony M]

2 hours ago, Card said:

Of course. Being covered by a treaty means any tax paid in your home country has tax credits for thai taxation. It doesn't necessarily mean its not assessable in thailand requiring a filing. If you transfer some funds that are taxable in thailabd along with the untaxabke income then a filing is required. I an referring to transfer of non thai taxable earnings only.

 

My income in the UK is not taxed (small frozen pension and small rental income) as it is below my personal tax allowance.  But it will be taxed in Thailand if I remit it ?  A tax credit in UK is no use to me if I don't pay tax in UK ?

[thpitsch]

The balance on January 1, 2024 of the account from which the transfers are made can play an important role. It can be deducted from the transfer amount because it is not income earned in 2024.