Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, anchadian said:

Latest from Integrity Legal.  He's not a happy man:
 

 

What a strange video. 

 

He basically says, because Thailand doesn't bother enforcing their labor laws, they will also not bother enforcing their tax laws, so no need to worry about anything, no tax to pay. 

 

Well, enforcing labor laws costs money, and enforcing tax laws makes money. 

 

Yes, yes, I know, I know, rocket science. 

 

 

[NoDisplayName]

21 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

The numbers have been crunched by members here and most pensions from developed nations exceed the threshold here, so pensioners will have some tax to pay, if they move all of their pension to Thailand each month. 

 

We got a lotta rich folks on this forum!

 

My social security, once it kicks in, will be under 400K baht.  Not even enough to qualify for a visa extension as married.  I'd have to supplement that with picking up bottles on the roadside.

 

But now that I'm a fully-fledged taxpayer in the Thai system, do I qualify for welfare?  That 10K they promised will buy six months worth of mama noodles.

[samtam]

1 hour ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

I filed online.  When you click the dropdown menu for 40(4) income and select the 15% taxed items, either a popup opens or the section is extended, giving you blanks to enter those three items.  The section 11 calculator calculates how much you owe or have overpaid.  If overpaid, you can click a box to receive a refund.   If you can find the right item in the dropdown menu, it's very simple.  Super easy, barely an inconvenience!

 

If you file on paper, do it in their office (ten minutes to process) and they'll fill the appropriate blacks for you.  But look at section 3....first blank is "payer of income"....that's the TIN for your bank.  If I'm correct, your total interest income goes on line 1.  I'm not sure, but since you're opting not to pay tax, then the section 11 calculator should pick that up. 

 

Instructions say:

No. 3 item 1.
Enter income that you received in the form of interest which includes interest from deposits

 

Note: Do not enter the amount if you select to pay tax on this amount at the rate of 15%. If you select to include this amount, you must include the entire amount. Partial inclusion is not allowed.

 

This indicates to me that the 15% of the total is automatically deducted from tax owed.

That box is autofilled when filing online.

 

 

Instructions under personal details say

Your date of birth. (If you are 65 years of age or older, attach the “Income Exemption Entitlement Form” for income exemption up to 190,000 baht.

 

This is the form

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/english_form/2023/22036765year.pdf

 

This if page 5 of the final printout when filing online, automatically generated by the system.  I don't know, as I'm still just a whippersnapper, but since your file contains your DOB, it will likely automatically award you (and spouse if filing jointly) the allowance.

You do NOT fill out section 11.  The online system automatically does the calculations and populates the fields.

 

Good lucky!

 

 

NOTE:  NOT ADVICE.  OPINION ONLY.  DO NOT TAKE INTERNALLY.

 

Thank you so much. The online drop down menus certainly make sense. I was going to do it today, but my Thai assistant was busy, so we'll have a go on Monday.

[NoDisplayName]

2 minutes ago, samtam said:

 

Thank you so much. The online drop down menus certainly make sense. I was going to do it today, but my Thai assistant was busy, so we'll have a go on Monday.

 

You've got a Thai assistant, the forms are simple, you have only a few items to declare, and you do not need to upload documentation unless requested.  Only interest and a pension (that may not need to be declared, depending on your DTA).

 

Either way, you'll be finished in 20 minutes.  Remember to download a copy of your submitted form along with the TRD receipt.  If you can't find the receipt immediately, the top menu bar has a check status option.

[mahjongguy]

1 hour ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Can you convert to Roth?  After 5 years, withdrawals are considered qualified, and there is no RMD.

   I cannot convert. Plenty of good reasons in my situation. Not concerned about RMD at this late stage.

 

  Just assuming it won't be assessable because it won't come here, and I will already be paying full tax on it.  

[NoDisplayName]

3 minutes ago, mahjongguy said:

   I cannot convert. Plenty of good reasons in my situation. Not concerned about RMD at this late stage.

 

  Just assuming it won't be assessable because it won't come here, and I will already be paying full tax on it.  

 

Nothing to worry about, unless worldwide taxation goes into effect.

 

"If you don't remit, they must acquit!"

 

 

[anrcaccount]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I'm more of a middle ground person at the moment.

There is a lot we don't know yet about enforcement and also a number of important technical details on the actual rules of the system. 
But I will say this about enforcement.

Up till now, retired expats living only on remittances didn't think about Thai tax, getting a TIN at all. 

That was when the LOOPHOLE rule was money remitted from previous years to the current year was not accessable.

But think about this for a moment.

What percentage of retired expats do you think DID remit money earned in the current year?

My guess is 75 percent or more.

Weren't they in violation of Thai tax law?

I think, yes, absolutely, they were, but it was completely off the radar because of NO ENFORCEMENT.

 

Now, you're getting it. 

 

It was probably more than 75% too. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

It would have been totally insane to even try to go in to pay tax on such remittances before now.

So you see, this is much more of grey area than you're presenting it as. 

 

Nothing has changed apart from an internal interpretation guideline and a whole lot of hot air.

 

It's still insane to try to pay tax on remittances. I doubt a single Satang has ever been paid.

 

This may change soon, but only because of anyone filing through a predatory agency.

 

Anyone going to the TRD to try and do this direct is being sent packing. 

 

 

 

 

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Now, you're getting it. 

 

It was probably more than 75% too. 

 

 

 

Nothing has changed apart from an internal interpretation guideline and a whole lot of hot air.

 

It's still insane to try to pay tax on remittances. I doubt a single Satang has ever been paid.

 

This may change soon, but only because of anyone filing through a predatory agency.

 

Anyone going to the TRD to try and do this direct is being sent packing. 

 

 

 

 

I think it will probably change because of:

All the publicity

Expats on remittances never talked about Thai tax but now it's a Top Topic

As you said, businesses pushing people to get into the system, even people with zero reason to be in the system

Icing on the cake -- yeah we even have Thai officials talking about this

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

If transferred to Thailand my reading is the amount remitted to Thailand is fully taxed as accessable income. If you paid tax for that in the U.S. -- if U.S. tax is higher, no Thai tax while if the U.S. tax is lower, you get a credit on your Thai tax for the U.S. tax paid. Thus, at least you avoid DOUBLE taxation.

Nope. DTA gives Thailand "exclusive" taxation rights on remitted IRAs, meaning only Thailand can tax it. However, the US has this "saving clause" in all its DTAs, meaning, it always has secondary taxation rights on taxation (except for a few items, like child care and alimony). Thus, Thailand taxes your remitted IRA -- and as exclusive taxation authority in the DTA -- gets to keep ALL TAXES COLLECTED, and doesn't have to absorb a tax credit from the US. The US, on the other hand, does have to absorb a tax credit for Thai taxes paid. If these are less than the US tax on your IRA, your total out-of-pocket tax bill, to both countries, would equal the tax bill if only the US taxed your IRA. If Thai taxes higher than US taxes, well, your total tax bill, both countries, equals your Thai tax bill ('cause Thai tax credit wipes out your total US tax bill).

 

As a note for discussion, here's the Por 162 language, meant to exclude pre 2024 income from Thai taxes:

Quote

The guidance in DI No. 162/2566 was issued to clarify that the interpretation provided in Clause 1 of DI No. 161/2566 should not apply to foreign-sourced income derived before 1 January 2024.3

For my traditional IRA, all the original funding occurred by 1990. This was with, of course, pre 2024 income -- albeit tax deferred income (which makes no never mind here, for Por 162 purposes). Since then - because the IRA holds stock mutual funds -- every year capital gains are "realized," and this pre-2024 income is then reinvested. So, except for the 2024 reinvested cap gains, my IRA adheres -- as far as I can see -- to the Por 162 exemption on "foreign sourced income derived before 1 Jan 2024."

 

Now, one expat advisor out there -- Expatthaitax -- says, nope, only remitted money from pre 2024 bank accounts (no IRAs, brokerage accounts, investments apply) is covered by Por 162. I don't agree -- but would change my mind with something definitive from TRD.

 

But, what all this means is that, if I follow my own counsel and believe my IRA remittances are exempt per Por 162 -- then, I'm just not required to declare my IRA remittance in a Thai tax return. But, I still have to declare my IRA distribution on my US tax return -- without, of course, any Thai tax credit, since I don't declare this IRA distribution on a Thai tax return. Bottom line: US taxes are probably greater than what I would have paid Thailand. So, Por 162 probably gives me no advantage.

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Nope. DTA gives Thailand "exclusive" taxation rights on remitted IRAs, meaning only Thailand can tax it. However, the US has this "saving clause" in all its DTAs, meaning, it always has secondary taxation rights on taxation (except for a few items, like child care and alimony). Thus, Thailand taxes your remitted IRA -- and as exclusive taxation authority in the DTA -- gets to keep ALL TAXES COLLECTED, and doesn't have to absorb a tax credit from the US. The US, on the other hand, does have to absorb a tax credit for Thai taxes paid. If these are less than the US tax on your IRA, your total out-of-pocket tax bill, to both countries, would equal the tax bill if only the US taxed your IRA. If Thai taxes higher than US taxes, well, your total tax bill, both countries, equals your Thai tax bill ('cause Thai tax credit wipes out your total US tax bill).

 

As a note for discussion, here's the Por 162 language, meant to exclude pre 2024 income from Thai taxes:

For my traditional IRA, all the original funding occurred by 1990. This was with, of course, pre 2024 income -- albeit tax deferred income (which makes no never mind here, for Por 162 purposes). Since then - because the IRA holds stock mutual funds -- every year capital gains are "realized," and this pre-2024 income is then reinvested. So, except for the 2024 reinvested cap gains, my IRA adheres -- as far as I can see -- to the Por 162 exemption on "foreign sourced income derived before 1 Jan 2024."

 

Now, one expat advisor out there -- Expatthaitax -- says, nope, only remitted money from pre 2024 bank accounts (no IRAs, brokerage accounts, investments apply) is covered by Por 162. I don't agree -- but would change my mind with something definitive from TRD.

 

But, what all this means is that, if I follow my own counsel and believe my IRA remittances are exempt per Por 162 -- then, I'm just not required to declare my IRA remittance in a Thai tax return. But, I still have to declare my IRA distribution on my US tax return -- without, of course, any Thai tax credit, since I don't declare this IRA distribution on a Thai tax return. Bottom line: US taxes are probably greater than what I would have paid Thailand. So, Por 162 probably gives me no advantage.

OK, the first part sounds credible enough.

I think a lot of DTAs do work similar to how I described, but of course it's case by case depending on the specific thing.

 

We've talked about your creative theory before. I'm not buying it yet, but who knows for sure?

 

[DrPhibes]

4 hours ago, Jonathan Swift said:

I don't think any US bank is going to hand over banking information just because Thailand asks for it. There is due process required and layers of privacy/security protections. 

Thailand is Tier 1 FATCA reporting.  Thailand can report your account to the US but can not request your data from a US source.

[JimGant]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I think a lot of DTAs do work similar to how I described,

The country with exclusive taxation authority (language often says, "may ONLY be taxed") never has to absorb a tax credit -- they get to keep the whole enchilada. Your example of Thailand absorbing a tax credit for taxes paid to the US on an IRA -- is not how it works.

[JimGant]

6 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

We've talked about your creative theory before. I'm not buying it yet, but who knows for sure?

And, if US taxes on your IRA are higher than Thai taxes, creative theory becomes a non player.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, JimGant said:

The country with exclusive taxation authority (language often says, "may ONLY be taxed") never has to absorb a tax credit -- they get to keep the whole enchilada. Your example of Thailand absorbing a tax credit for taxes paid to the US on an IRA -- is not how it works.

OK.

Not a big issue for me personally as typically I would owe nothing in the US but owe something in Thailand at my levels so no need for a zero credit. 

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, JimGant said:

And, if US taxes on your IRA are higher than Thai taxes, creative theory becomes a non player.

I'm really not following that but I won't stress too much as I am pretty confident that your creative theory won't actually be the Thai reading. 

[MartinBangkok]

5 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

I'm sure we will hear more from the Director General before the the 31st March.  Particularly as his brief seems to be broadening Thailand's tax base.  Hopefully, his statements will be published by a credible media source.  

 

Until then, unless he comes out and makes bold statements like, for example, "foreigners remitting a pension DO NOT have to file" or similar very direct and concise statements, I will be filing and declaring.

 

I will pay this year, but if I feel it's a rip off, it's 179 days in Thailand, and the rest in Vietnam.   

You are already getting ripped off in Thailand. Shall I give you the list, or would you rather continue keeping it under the carpet?

And the other aspect of mistreatment of white skinned foreigners: Are you married to a Thai? How do feel about immigration officers in military uniforms coming to take photos of you and your wife lying in your bed? Do you think they are having a laugh?

[anrcaccount]

25 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Now, one expat advisor out there -- Expatthaitax -- says, nope, only remitted money from pre 2024 bank accounts (no IRAs, brokerage accounts, investments apply) is covered by Por 162. I don't agree -- but would change my mind with something definitive from TRD.

 

I'm far from a fan of Expat Tax, and wouldn't trust much what they publish.

 

But I did view their webinar on remittance of capital gains. and it doesn't state that everything in any investment / brokerage account pre 2024 is considered "income" per POR 162.

 

They acknowledge the concept of original capital being remitted, non taxable, and the idea of calculating capital gains. 

 

There is also an acknowledgement that any investment sold at cost, or a loss can be remitted as non assessable. 

[oldcpu]

On 1/16/2025 at 10:47 AM, kingstonkid said:

a couple of days ago, and he explained that it is only money I bring into the country. However, he advised that my Canadian Penson from the government is exempt, but he was not sure about military pensions

 

 

By the Canada-Thailand DTA, Canada has exclusive rights over all Canadian sourced pensions (or similar remunerations). Thailand has no taxation rights over those.  That DTA is pretty clear on that.  

 

Of course you will need to pay Canadian tax and file a Canadian tax return on such.

[KhunHeineken]

2 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

Foreigners who remit exempt funds and understand their DTA, and any assessable remittances total under 60K do not need to file.

Yeah, yeah, tell the TRD / Immigration that.

 

This has been debated over and over and over.  The TRD don't know one's funds are "exempt" unless you declare to them they are. 

 

2 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

But let's say you declare ALL your foreign remittances, assessable or not.  If you are above TEDA and the 150K 0% band, you owe tax.

Yes, let's just say that. 

 

2 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

There is no provision in the Thai tax forms to deduct declared remittances as non-assessable, there is no provision to claim a tax credit paid to a foreign revenue service. 

 

Handy for the Thai's to manipulate, right?  Just the way they like it. 

 

2 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

Not on the 2024 Thai forms already released, nor on the 2023 English forms on the website, and no indication that there will be any changes to the 2024 English forms.  Otherwise, the Thai forms would have to be updated to match.

Once again, you, and others, are relying on Thailand to get it 100% up to date, correct, accurate, modern, efficient etc etc.  The fact that it's not seems to be the excuse you will use and then I have a feeling they will say. GOTCHA, and screw you, but that's just my opinion.  

 

I'll file, declare, pay or no pay, get my piece of paper for doing so, and sleep well. 

 

Depending on the "pay" will determine the amount of time I stay in Thailand each year in the future. 

 

Do nothing because the forms don't have this or have that, assssable, non assessable, pre 2024 savings, blah, blah, blah, you roll the dice.  

 

2 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

And that's not gonna happen.  As of Monday, 21% of this year's tax filing season has expired.

True, and your point is? 

[NoDisplayName]

7 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

2 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

And that's not gonna happen.  As of Monday, 21% of this year's tax filing season has expired.

True, and your point is? 

 

Thousands have already filed, soon to be millions.

 

There will be no new Thai forms issued middle of tax season that require all those who previously filed to re-submit declaring all the formerly non-reportable remittances.

 

There will be no new English forms with reporting requirements different than those on the Thai forms.

 

There is no requirement for foreigners to use English forms.

[NoDisplayName]

12 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

2 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

Foreigners who remit exempt funds and understand their DTA, and any assessable remittances total under 60K do not need to file.

Yeah, yeah, tell the TRD / Immigration that.

 

That's what the TRD officers tell us!

Immigration is not involved.

[Yumthai]

21 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

I'll file, declare, pay or no pay, get my piece of paper for doing so, and sleep well. 

... sleep well with an extension of stay stamped in your passport illegally obtained through an agent.

It seems you're rolling the dice as well.

[KhunHeineken]

37 minutes ago, MartinBangkok said:

You are already getting ripped off in Thailand. Shall I give you the list, or would you rather continue keeping it under the carpet?

Whilst there is some truth to your statement, I'm single, rent, don't sent money for sick buffalo, didn't move 800k to a 3rd World Country bank and use an agent. 

 

I have nothing I can't leave within hours and head straight to the airport and never come back, should I need to or want to. This is by design.  My losses would be a secondhand motor bike, and a good entertainment system.  Both I could sell to friends over some phone calls.   

 

I make Thailand work for me, not me, or my money, working for Thailand. 

 

As I have said in the past, I show Thailand as much loyalty as Thailand shows me - zero. 

 

Thailand does not even offer a reasonable pathway to permanent residency, so what's that say about them wanting farang here? 

 

41 minutes ago, MartinBangkok said:

And the other aspect of mistreatment of white skinned foreigners: Are you married to a Thai? How do feel about immigration officers in military uniforms coming to take photos of you and your wife lying in your bed? Do you think they are having a laugh?

As mentioned above.  I'm single.  I have not dug a hole for myself here. 

 

Yes, farang puppets, dangling on their Thai master's stings.  Not for me. 

 

Drawing maps and taking photos of each other in the bedroom.  Treated lower than a soi dog. 

 

This guy would have got less time for killing a farang.

 

https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2938700/extra-prison-time-for-policeman-who-killed-beloved-campus-dog

[NoDisplayName]

32 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

The TRD don't know one's funds are "exempt" unless you declare to them they are. 

 

The TRD don't know you have remitted funds, exempt or not, unless you declare them.

[oldcpu]

On 1/16/2025 at 8:27 AM, Kerryd said:

I would need to see an actual reference to that - from a legitimate source - before I'd believe it.

Everything I've been reading about the subject suggests they want to see all of your income, even if it's covered by a treaty, and the only way to do that is by filing a return.
 

 

 The Thai tax law lists income that is NOT to be included in tax calculations.

 

Checkout  section-42 of the Thailand tax code states: The assessable income of the following categories shall be exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation:

 

It goes on to list items - note item -17:

 

    17.  Income prescribed for exemption by Ministerial regulations. 

 

 

Then look at Thailand Revenue Department Ministerial directives:

 

Paw.161/162 which together indicate any foreign income from savings & income before 1-January-2024 are tax exempt (which suggests non-assessable income). 

 

Also, some foreign pensions/income, dependent on the source country DTA with Thailand, are only taxable in the source country and not in Thailand (it depends on the country - for some others only Thailand can tax the Thai-residents), which again suggests non-assessable income. 

 

Then examine the Thai tax return forms, keeping section-42 of the Thai tax code in mind, where in these tax forms there there is NO place to list the exemptions.

 

The Thai tax forms have no place for deduction of this 'ministerial exempt' income,  .. why?  Possibly because per the Thai tax code section-42 shall be exempt for the purpose of income tax calculations, and likely such (not assessable income) shall not be included in a Thai Tax form per Thailand law. 

 

Kerryd, you have your references.

 

Do not misconstrue my post above as saying you should not file a tax return.  I do not know your financial situation.  But please do consider Thailand tax code, consider Thailand ministerial directives, consider the DTA with the country from whence your income comes from, and consider whether (and how much if any) foreign income you remitted to Thailand (noting in particular PAW-161/162 and the DTA with the source county of your foreign income).

 

If you are still puzzling, and if you have no TIN , no one will stop you from going to your local Tax office and see if they will assign you a TIN and assess your tax situation. You may wish to bring a Thai-English translator with you.

 

Once again Kerryd, you have your references. The next step is yours.

[KhunHeineken]

1 minute ago, Yumthai said:

... sleep well with an extension of stay stamped in your passport illegally obtained through an agent.

It seems you're rolling the dice as well.

You are correct, but unlike so many others here, for me, Thailand is not the be all and end all.  I like Vietnam as well.

 

Should we talk about using Thai nominees to own a property????  How many are rolling that dice?  Maybe let's leave that "dice."

 

If they make changes that sees my living in Thailand untenable, I'll switch to tourist visas for 179 days a year.  No tax exposure.  No immigration exposure.  I'm just a tourist.  Total tax and immigration freedom.   What's the downside????????

[KhunHeineken]

5 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

The TRD don't know you have remitted funds, exempt or not, unless you declare them.

The Thai banks know.  Don't be so naive. 

[KhunHeineken]

27 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

Immigration is not involved.

Give it time. 

 

You can hold me to it. 

 

I will gladly say I was wrong in the future, but in my opinion, if all this goes through, attaching tax compliance to immigration / visas / extensions is the logical thing for the Thai government will do.

 

Time will tell.   

[Yumthai]

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

You are correct, but unlike so many others here, for me, Thailand is not the be all and end all.  I like Vietnam as well.

 

Should we talk about using Thai nominees to own a property????  How many are rolling that dice?  Maybe let's leave that "dice."

 

If they make changes that sees my living in Thailand untenable, I'll switch to tourist visas for 179 days a year.  No tax exposure.  No immigration exposure.  I'm just a tourist.  Total tax and immigration freedom.   What's the downside????????

OK so just be coherent. Why bothering to file a tax return as you're already being rogue with Immigration and you agree yourself that tax enforcement is non-existent?

[oldcpu]

On 1/16/2025 at 3:45 PM, Card said:

Google 'Common reporting standard'. The dtas require full disclosure by participating states to prevent tax evasion 

 

... and go a step further please and read what needs to be reported.  There is no FULL disclosure.

 

Both Thailand and Canada, per CRS agreement are NOT required to provide any information on government monitored/registered accounts.  In Canada this refers to RRSPs and RRIFs and some other registered Canadian government approved accounts for Canadian residents or Canadian citizens (including those abroad) to place their money and have it grow tax free.

 

There is MASSIVE wrong extrapolation on the views of CRS by some , believing it has massive over-reach far more than what is the truth.

.