Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[advancebooking]

On 1/15/2025 at 8:04 PM, Briggsy said:

What would be the incentive to file?

 

Let me give you some completely hypothetical examples.

 

1. They refuse to extend your permission to stay unless you provide proof you have filed a tax return.

2. They issue an estimated assessment for a year you did not file.

3. They issue a fine for a year you did not file.

4. The Thai bank freezes your bank account unless you provide proof you have filed a tax return.

 

Currently these all seem very unlikely.

 

So I am back to my original question, what would be the incentive to file a Thai tax return.

I totally agree with your statement. 

 

I think the thai tax law is based on the honest system. There will be farang who abide by the law and some that dont

[oldcpu]

7 minutes ago, advancebooking said:

Quote

What would be the incentive to file?

 

Let me give you some completely hypothetical examples.

 

1. They refuse to extend your permission to stay unless you provide proof you have filed a tax return.

2. They issue an estimated assessment for a year you did not file.

3. They issue a fine for a year you did not file.

4. The Thai bank freezes your bank account unless you provide proof you have filed a tax return.

 

Currently these all seem very unlikely.

 

So I am back to my original question, what would be the incentive to file a Thai tax return.

 

I totally agree with your statement. 

 

I think the thai tax law is based on the honest system. There will be farang who abide by the law and some that dont

 

I think it important all of this (in the original quote above)  is completely hypothetical, conjecture and speculation.

 

I do believe all expats need to assess their own situation, and in accordance with Thai law, assess if they need to obtain a TIN and file a Thai tax return.  ....

 

Unfortunately there are some (paranoid ? ) scaremongers who are exaggerating the situation, making it complicated for those who don't spend the time studying this, to understand what their own tax reporting requirements are.

 

And it does not help that Double Tax Agreements (DTAs) are not the easiest documents to read.

.

[redwood1]

27 minutes ago, advancebooking said:

I totally agree with your statement. 

 

I think the thai tax law is based on the honest system. There will be farang who abide by the law and some that dont

 

Like I have said before...If there were criminal penalties for not filing taxes, they would have to turn Thailand into a giant prison camp to house the 10s of millions of Thais who do not file or pay taxes....

 

Especially the poor and the rich Thais see no benefit to filing....

 

The middle class do get benefits from paying taxes like they should, including, top notch heath care for life, and old age Social  Security so more middle class file taxes or should I say paying taxes allows them also to pay into these programs..

[NoDisplayName]

27 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Actually that firm in a recent QA session provided a very clear and firm answer about that specific question about whether the value of U.S. retirement accounts at December 31, 2023 is exempt going forward. 

NO!
NO!

N0!

 

So, no worries about complex accounting.

It is very simple actually. 

The full amount of the withdrawals when remitted is the relevant number.

 

ALSO, there is no cost basis profit calculation on sold assets WITHIN the retirement accounts as there is for non-retirement investments.

 

 

QA sessions are necessarily generalized.  Wouldn't the assessability of retirement accounts depend on specifics?  Blanket statements from Interviews on stage, off-the-cuff, can't cover all the possible factors.

 

Regular IRA's are pre-tax contributions, so never taxed at source, but the withdrawals are taxable.  Wouldn't you at least have a potential tax credit, even though you can't apply it on a Thai tax form?

 

Roth IRA's are post-tax contributions, with tax-free withdrawals, so you do have a cost basis you can separate from gains, potentially making only the gain assessable.

 

But then, I've converted my standard IRA to a Roth, so where does that stand?  

 

I'm not a tax advisor, nor have I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express recently.

 

 

[JimGant]

23 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Actually that firm in a recent QA session provided a very clear and firm answer about that specific question about whether the value of U.S. retirement accounts at December 31, 2023 is exempt going forward. 

NO!
NO!

N0!

Did they explain how they came to their conclusion? After all, Por 162 exempts all pre 2024 income, whether it's in a bank account, in your mattress, or in your IRA, which prima facie labels all funds in that IRA as pre 2024 income (from wages, and annual reinvestments of income earned within that IRA -- except, of course, post 2023 reinvestments, which can be dealt with by FIFO, as withdrawals occur.)

 

Anyway, Jingthing, you seem to think Expatthai's NO NO NO is  the all-defining answer to this question. Why  wouldn't you be more curious on how they arrived at their conclusion -- especially since it seems you'll blindly follow their advise, declare your IRA withdrawals on a Thai tax return, and (maybe) pay Thai taxes on them?

 

But, some of us can use our own power of reasoning, interpret Por 162 literally, and submerge our IRA income under Por 162 auspices. Where your logic is coming from, if anywhere, is curious....

[Jingthing]

9 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Did they explain how they came to their conclusion? After all, Por 162 exempts all pre 2024 income, whether it's in a bank account, in your mattress, or in your IRA, which prima facie labels all funds in that IRA as pre 2024 income (from wages, and annual reinvestments of income earned within that IRA -- except, of course, post 2023 reinvestments, which can be dealt with by FIFO, as withdrawals occur.)

 

Anyway, Jingthing, you seem to think Expatthai's NO NO NO is  the all-defining answer to this question. Why  wouldn't you be more curious on how they arrived at their conclusion -- especially since it seems you'll blindly follow their advise, declare your IRA withdrawals on a Thai tax return, and (maybe) pay Thai taxes on them?

 

But, some of us can use our own power of reasoning, interpret Por 162 literally, and submerge our IRA income under Por 162 auspices. Where your logic is coming from, if anywhere, is curious....

You have an expert background in US tax matters. So it's natural for you to feel the need to go deep into the weeds on these matters. I just want the answers. I don't pretend to ever be at your level on such analysis and it simply doesn't interest me. I'm not in a position to argue arcane law to the TRD in Thailand. 

[KhunHeineken]

6 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Even more interesting 

 

Are Officials from the Revenue Department lying 

 

 

 

About an hour old and simple to understand.

 

And I think that now backs up everything that I have previously said.

 

Think that now leaves us with the last strawman standing " Where do you put this on the Tax Forms "

Dr. Sarawoot - "If they find you avoid make the tax payment, it could be big trouble."

 

Just what every expat needs, "big trouble" in Thailand.   

 

For those who have spoken to a junior staff member at a TRD office, and been told they have no need to file and no tax to pay, I wish them good luck.  I'm sure the Senior Legal Office of the TRD, Khun Patharaphon, has got it completely wrong.   

[TheAppletons]

8 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Dr. Sarawoot - "If they find you avoid make the tax payment, it could be big trouble."

 

Just what every expat needs, "big trouble" in Thailand.   

 

For those who have spoken to a junior staff member at a TRD office, and been told they have no need to file and no tax to pay, I wish them good luck.  I'm sure the Senior Legal Office of the TRD, Khun Patharaphon, has got it completely wrong.   

 

  "Tax evasion is illegal" - thanks for that news flash.

 

  Not filing when you have zero assessable income, however, is not illegal - it's prescribed in the tax code.

[KhunHeineken]

6 hours ago, SHA 2 BKK said:

 

Perfect as we have been saying!  30.30-30.50 mark the money shot....

 

No assessable income eg. savings pre 2024, DTA non assessable Income and LTR Visa (logically) no need for a TIN and no need to file a return. Great find cobber and from the mouth of the horse - put down the glasses no filing for this little Black Duck!

So, say a retired expat is living in Thailand and owns ten rental properties back in his home country, thus, no pension for him.  

 

He remits say 1.5 million baht a year into his Thai bank account.  He lives in Thailand full time, so over 180 days a year.  

 

He does NOTHING about this tax, zero, zilch, nada, and continues on living in Thailand as if none of it ever happened.  

 

If questioned, his plan is to say "the money I remit is not assessable" and YOU seem to think that will fly. 

 

That's it, simple as that, say the money is not assessable and there is no further action.  

 

So, the Thai banks, the TRD, and Immigration, will have absolutely NOTHING in place to stop such an easy loop hole.  Really????    

 

Most pensions from around the world go over the Thailand tax threshold.  It goes back to the debate, how does the TRD know your income is not assessable unless you prove to them it is not? 

 

Then, you would want some proof that you have proved it to them, and that will be a certificate showing zero tax to pay, which I predict, will be needed by immigration in the future. 

 

It will be interesting to see how it unfolds, but I'm sure it's not going to be as easy as saying "my remittances is non assessable income."

[KhunHeineken]

41 minutes ago, TheAppletons said:

 

  "Tax evasion is illegal" - thanks for that news flash.

 

  Not filing when you have zero assessable income, however, is not illegal - it's prescribed in the tax code.

I just addressed this in a post. 

 

It's the same old debate.  How does the TRD know your remittances are not assessable income unless you prove it to them?

 

The only way to do that is to file, declare, have them officially acknowledge you have zero tax to pay, get a certificate of clearance showing so, then you have completed the process. 

 

Similar question to you.  If everyone does NOTHING, because their plan is to say their remittances are from non assessable income, you don't think the Thai government will close such an easy loophole?  

[ukrules]

This recent video was definitely filmed in 2024, they mention 'next year' and between 'Jan and March' filing multiple times throughout the video.

It's subtle but it's there several times. I suspect the video was filmed in December or earlier, edited and then submitted for approval by those in the video prior to being released which only happened today.

So there's nothing 'new' in there but there wouldn't be anyway as nothing changed recently at all.

Also one of the guys answering appeared to mix up information between people living and working in Thailand and people who don't earn income in Thailand when he was asked about it being linked to immigration status, entering / exiting the country, etc - that part was very unclear. The RD guy appeared to be talking about people working in Thailand where the question was I suspect mostly related to retirees.

 

 

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

It's the same old debate.  How does the TRD know your remittances are not assessable income unless you prove it to them?

 

The only way to do that is to file, declare, have them officially acknowledge you you have zero tax to pay, get a certificate of clearance showing so, then you have complete the process. 

 

Nailed in the latest video.

 

Tax Resident, remit income after 01 Jan 2024, it is assessable income.

 

Some of that assessable income will not be taxable, due to DTA's etc

[SHA 2 BKK]

7 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

So, say a retired expat is living in Thailand and owns ten rental properties back in his home country, thus, no pension for him.  

 

He remits say 1.5 million baht a year into his Thai bank account.  He lives in Thailand full time, so over 180 days a year.  

 

He does NOTHING about this tax, zero, zilch, nada, and continues on living in Thailand as if none of it ever happened.  

 

If questioned, his plan is to say "the money I remit is not assessable" and YOU seem to think that will fly. 

 

That's it, simple as that, say the money is not assessable and there is no further action.  

 

So, the Thai banks, the TRD, and Immigration, with have absolutely NOTHING in place to stop such an easy loop hole.  Really????    

 

Most pensions from around the world go over the Thailand tax threshold.  It goes back to the debate, how does the TRD know your income is not assessable unless you prove to them it is? 

 

Then, you would want some proof that you have proved it to them, and that will be a certificate showing zero tax to pay, which I predict, will be needed by immigration in the future. 

 

It will be interesting to see how it unfolds, but I'm sure it's not going to be as easy as you say.  

Well in my case, if they come a calling, I will show them my 2023 December 31 Bank Balance, Australian Thai DTA which specifically exempts my Pension and my LTR Visa to boot.  
 

I don’t have to see immigration for another three years and will continue to keep the same paperwork as I described above to prove my exempt income.  
 

As for ten rental properties back home - I wish!! 

[KannikaP]

14 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Most pensions from around the world go over the Thailand tax threshold

My GBP 160 a week doesn't.

[redwood1]

2 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

I just addressed this in a post. 

 

It's the same old debate.  How does the TRD know your remittances are not assessable income unless you prove it to them?

 

The only way to do that is to file, declare, have them officially acknowledge you you have zero tax to pay, get a certificate of clearance showing so, then you have complete the process. 

 

Similar question to you.  If everyone does NOTHING, because their plan is to say their remittances are from non assessable income, you don't think the Thai government will close such an easy loophole?  

If everyone does NOTHING, because their plan is to say their remittances are from non assessable income, 

 

 

Khun you are psychic.......You have just mapped out the Russians,Chinese, Indians, and all the other non farangs......Tax strategy..........If they are even azzed to do this much..

 

 

[oldcpu]

12 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

I just addressed this in a post. 

 

It's the same old debate.  How does the TRD know your remittances are not assessable income unless you prove it to them?

 

The only way to do that is to file, declare, have them officially acknowledge you you have zero tax to pay, get a certificate of clearance showing so, then you have complete the process. 

 

Similar question to you.  If everyone does NOTHING, because their plan is to say their remittances are from non assessable income, you don't think the Thai government will close such an easy loophole?  

The Thai government relies on self assessment. 

 

There is no requirement at present for a tax certificate for immigration for extension of stay in Thailand purposes. OK? Clear? Whether there will be in the future is speculation at this stage.

 

What we do know now is Thai tax law, Royal Decrees, Ministerial directives,  and Double Tax Agreements betweenThailand and 61 countries ( where every DTA is different) .. and for those wondering about immigration there are also current immigration requirements. Current requirements. Current. ...

Not speculative future requirements of AseanNow posters. Current requirements. 

 

One should follow Thailand law in regards to tax, and that may or may not mean a Thai tax return is needed depending on each person's financial situation.

 

 

[oldcpu]

11 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Nailed in the latest video.

 

Tax Resident, remit income after 01 Jan 2024, it is assessable income.

 

Some of that assessable income will not be taxable, due to DTA's etc

 

And the RD official noted there were exemptions in defining foreign assessable income.

 

Nailed that there are exemptions affecting assessable income. 

 

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

One should follow Thailand law in regards to tax, and that may or may not mean a Thai tax return is needed depending on each person's financial situation.

 

Sure,

 

No tax return is required if you remit less than 120 / 220k baht a year.

[oldcpu]

2 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Sure,

 

No tax return is required if you remit less than 120 / 220k baht a year.

Assessable remitted income.

 

That is important.  Not all foreign remitted income is assessable. 

[KhunHeineken]

4 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Nailed in the latest video.

 

Tax Resident, remit income after 01 Jan 2024, it is assessable income.

 

Some of that assessable income will not be taxable, due to DTA's etc

Many members on pensions seem to think the TRD will treat them the same way as they do Somchai, the rice farmer, in an Issan village.

 

They are not going to chase Somchai for zero to little tax. 

 

Foreigners, on the other hand, can be "forced" into a TRD office, in the same way they are forced into an Immigration office, where their remittances can be questioned.   

 

The TRD may ask for a bank statement.  It will be over the threshold.  They will make deductions for over 65 and if married, then give you a tax figure. 

 

Good Luck arguing with them it's non assessable income, pre 2024 savings, you have a DTA, it's a loan, blah blah blah. 

 

Pay, or no certificate for immigration. 

 

Do I have a link to show this is the way it is, or the way it will be, NO, but I have no problem discussing why members think it will not go down this path, eventually, provided it's more than just wishful thinking. 

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

And the RD official noted there were exemptions in defining foreign assessable income.

 

Can you give me a time stamp for that ?
 

I doubt I missed it, but ai could have down.

[oldcpu]

3 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Can you give me a time stamp for that ?
 

I doubt I missed it, but ai could have down.

 

It's easy to miss.

 

It was stated in Thai language and not translated.

 

 

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

Many members on pensions seem to think the TRD will treat them the same way as they do Somchai, the rice farmer, in an Issan village.

 

This mornings video was quite clear. As a Tax resident, remit income after the 01 Jan 2024, it is assessable income, if it falls below the 120 / 220k baht, there is no need to file ( As per a normal Thai )

 

Over that amount, supply your evidence, and it wont be taxed, or a tax credit applied.

 

It even gives you a big hint, A bank statement will prove your remitted income is pre 01 Jan 2024 savings, and will not be taxed.

[KhunHeineken]

13 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

My GBP 160 a week doesn't.

See the word "most?"  Did I say "all?" 

[redwood1]

5 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Many members on pensions seem to think the TRD will treat them the same way as they do Somchai, the rice farmer, in an Issan village.

 

They are not going to chase Somchai for zero to little tax. 

 

Foreigners, on the other hand, can be "forced" into a TRD office, in the same way they are forced into an Immigration office, where their remittances can be questioned.   

 

The TRD may ask for a bank statement.  It will be over the threshold.  They will make deductions for over 65 and if married, then give you a tax figure. 

 

Good Luck arguing with them it's non assessable income, pre 2024 savings, you have a DTA, it's a loan, blah blah blah. 

 

Pay, or no certificate for immigration. 

 

Do I have a link to show this is the way it is, or the way it will be, NO, but I have no problem discussing why members think it will not go down this path, eventually, provided it's more than just wishful thinking. 

Good thing you posted this again I almost forgot from the last 10 times you posted this..

[KhunHeineken]

16 minutes ago, SHA 2 BKK said:

Thai DTA which specifically exempts my Pension

What Aussie pension are you on?

 

16 minutes ago, SHA 2 BKK said:

if they come a calling

They won't "come calling." 

 

You will redirected to a TRD office at extension time. 

 

17 minutes ago, SHA 2 BKK said:

I don’t have to see immigration for another three years and will continue to keep the same paperwork as I described above to prove my exempt income.  

Fair enough.

 

18 minutes ago, SHA 2 BKK said:

As for ten rental properties back home - I wish!! 

Not everyone is living in Thailand on a meager pension. 

[The Cyclist]

10 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

It's easy to miss.

 

It was stated in Thai language and not translated.

 

 

 

Yes, there are 29 exemption listed in the Revenue Code, they are listed at Section 42, here

 

Quote

Section 42 The assessable income of the following categories shall be exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation:

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/37749.html

 

Good luck trying to shoehorn them into your annual tax return

[KhunHeineken]

30 minutes ago, ukrules said:

This recent video was definitely filmed in 2024, they mention 'next year' and between 'Jan and March' filing multiple times throughout the video.

It's subtle but it's there several times. I suspect the video was filmed in December or earlier, edited and then submitted for approval by those in the video prior to being released which only happened today.

So there's nothing 'new' in there but there wouldn't be anyway as nothing changed recently at all.

Also one of the guys answering appeared to mix up information between people living and working in Thailand and people who don't earn income in Thailand when he was asked about it being linked to immigration status, entering / exiting the country, etc - that part was very unclear. The RD guy appeared to be talking about people working in Thailand where the question was I suspect mostly related to retirees.

 

 

Are you suggesting it is of no value at all?  It neither clarifies or confirms anything. 

[KhunHeineken]

25 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

Khun you are psychic.

No, not psychic.  I can just see further than the road than the Leo sitting on the bar. 

[ukrules]

2 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Are you suggesting it is of no value at all?  It neither clarifies or confirms anything. 

 

No, I'm just saying it's not new, this is an old video where they talk about things that happen next year - in that context they're speaking about 2025.

Considering today is January 27, I think this is worth mentioning as the video only went up today.

There were some mixed messages in there too where the subject strayed from retirees / non working expats to people employed in Thailand when it came to talking about immigration.

It's a valid and potentially useful video which covers the same old stuff we've seen a hundred time before though.