The high price of peace in Europe.

[Kiwiken]

On 2/16/2025 at 4:23 AM, SunnyinBangrak said:

Having invited millions and millions of people of a hostile violent ideology into peaceful European nations, we now have the fox inside the henhouse. Makes no difference now how the fence is strengthened, we are cooked from within. Lots of cities like London and Paris have already fallen to the invaders, all will eventually succumb, it's basic demographics.

 No point thinking about Russia or Ukraine. Interestingly enough Russia did not try replacing Russians with "guests on welfare" so they will survive as a nation. As will China. As will Thailand. As will Japan. Well done the 4 nations.

Russia will not survive birth rates are through the floor. And they have just wasted a million men on Putins folly

[newbee2022]

On 2/15/2025 at 7:19 PM, swissie said:

To secure peace, a strong deterrent is a good way to go. Even the old Romans knew this. "Si vis pacem, parabellum".

 

For 30 years, Europe has abandoned this principle. To bring up our military capabilities up to par will cost astronomical amounts of money and can easily take up to 10 years.

 

Problem: Some legislative "dept ceilings" are in place. Other European countries have "maxed-out" their credit cards already. Tax increases? No way!

 

So, I would just like to know how the future peace in Europe can be financed.

 

Of course, if the US should pull out of NATO (even a limited pull-out), we would not have to bother with our European military build up anymore.  Rather should we start teaching our kids Russian as a second language, replacing English.

 

I said it already: 

Put yourself in Putin's shoes. Once.

To respect Russian's security sphere would have been an easy way to secure peace. But Nato extended there influence up to Russian borders.

Was it a good idea?

What do you think US would do if Russia would extend their influence (politically and economically) up to Mexico?

Clapping hands??🥺

[The Old Bull]

The US still hasn't gone home after  WWII they are spread over the world like some evil pox pretending others are the threat when they are the biggest. I believe the Russians have more reason to worry about the US than the US has to worry about Russia. There are no Russian missiles on US borders but there are US missiles on Russian borders. This is what the Ukranian war is about also oil a constant source of conflict is in there too somehow.

[candide]

18 minutes ago, The Old Bull said:

The US still hasn't gone home after  WWII they are spread over the world like some evil pox pretending others are the threat when they are the biggest. I believe the Russians have more reason to worry about the US than the US has to worry about Russia. There are no Russian missiles on US borders but there are US missiles on Russian borders. This is what the Ukranian war is about also oil a constant source of conflict is in there too somehow.

No. There are no NATO missiles on Russian border. It's lame Russian propaganda.

Missiles and other nuclear weapons stayed were they were at the end of the cold war.

https://www.cfr.org/in-brief/nuclear-weapons-europe-mapping-us-and-russian-deployments

[Thingamabob]

21 hours ago, Negita43 said:

I am saddened that conversations always turn to economics and never to ethics and morals

In that context Ukraine, with vast amounts of foreign money currently being spent on its' defence, has never been run by angels and saints.

[Yellowtail]

1 minute ago, candide said:

No. There are no NATO missiles on Russian border. It's lame Russian propaganda.

Missiles and other nuclear weapons stayed were they were at the end of the cold war.

https://www.cfr.org/in-brief/nuclear-weapons-europe-mapping-us-and-russian-deployments

Yeah, too bad we don't have the missile defense system Obama agreed to cancel in return for Putin giving him space before the election. 

 

[candide]

2 hours ago, newbee2022 said:

I said it already: 

Put yourself in Putin's shoes. Once.

To respect Russian's security sphere would have been an easy way to secure peace. But Nato extended there influence up to Russian borders.

Was it a good idea?

What do you think US would do if Russia would extend their influence (politically and economically) up to Mexico?

Clapping hands??🥺

Russia's problem is that it's not attractive for other countries, and is even repellent.

Your example is not realistic as Mexico has absolutely no reason to be attracted by a failed State like Russia.

[candide]

Just now, Yellowtail said:

Yeah, too bad we don't have the missile defense system Obama agreed to cancel in return for Putin giving him space before the election. 

 

I don't approve Obama's policy re. Russia. But obviously, he was not the only one to underestimate this threat at that particular time.

[candide]

4 hours ago, Kiwiken said:

Russia will not survive birth rates are through the floor. And they have just wasted a million men on Putins folly

Don't worry. Chinese will fill the gap. Then they could use the same trick as Putin: Chinese speaking people in Russia are threatened, we need to defend them! 🙂

[Yellowtail]

5 minutes ago, candide said:

I don't approve Obama's policy re. Russia. But obviously, he was not the only one to underestimate this threat at that particular time.

Yeah, everyone on the left loved them some Russia back then. Iran too.

[newbee2022]

49 minutes ago, candide said:

Russia's problem is that it's not attractive for other countries, and is even repellent.

Your example is not realistic as Mexico has absolutely no reason to be attracted by a failed State like Russia.

Geez, I tried to make it easy as an example to understand....for you.

However, I admit to have failed.🤗

[candide]

1 hour ago, newbee2022 said:

Geez, I tried to make it easy as an example to understand....for you.

However, I admit to have failed.🤗

I get it but there was no NATO threat. As outlined recently, military budgets of European NATO countries had been decreasing and they were certainly no going to attack Russia. The U.S. military presence in Europe had also been significantly reduced.

[xtrnuno41]

Peace? What peace?

You mean not being banged down? Or to live in freedom? What freedom?

All you do is determined by others. So called leaders, criminals with their own gain.

There is no leader on the world, stable, to provide peace freedom.

And there has never been anyone, like that.

Should I care for how much it costs for so called peace freedom?

Just a fear they bring to you because you love your live so much.

All so called leaders are trying to kill me with plastics, smoke, chemicals.

Telling you now what you are allowed to eat, for what?

Peaceful, free life? Hahahaha

Bring on the confused emoticon !

 

[Yellowtail]

10 minutes ago, candide said:

I get it but there was no NATO threat. As outlined recently, military budgets of European NATO countries had been decreasing and they were certainly no going to attack Russia. The U.S. military presence in Europe had also been significantly reduced.

Yet NATO allies had agreed to spend at least 2% of GDP, many of which have not. 

[newbee2022]

16 minutes ago, candide said:

I get it but there was no NATO threat. As outlined recently, military budgets of European NATO countries had been decreasing and they were certainly no going to attack Russia. The U.S. military presence in Europe had also been significantly reduced.

I give up. Sorry. 🥺 Have a nice evening 🙏

[Flyguy330]

23 hours ago, newbee2022 said:

I said it already: 

Put yourself in Putin's shoes. Once.

To respect Russian's security sphere would have been an easy way to secure peace. But Nato extended there influence up to Russian borders.

Was it a good idea?

What do you think US would do if Russia would extend their influence (politically and economically) up to Mexico?

Clapping hands??🥺

 

For a long time I liked Putin. He seemed to be one of the sanest leaders in the world. Watch his Oliver Stone interview and you can see why. 

Remember how Russia handled the World Cup in 2018? Brits were interviewed expressing trepidation before going there for the games. After they got there they were full of praise for the friendly reception they got, and the efficiency of how it was all run. There was a huge opportunity to improve relations with Russia in that moment.

 

It was Russia that obliterated ISIS in Syria in Dec 2017, when the US was egging the jihadists on because they fitted the the US main agenda to unseat Assad (at the demand of Netanyahu). 

Assad was a secular leader - ISIS were rabid Jihadists, out to murder all non muslims. Putin did what the US couldn't/wouldn't, he defeated ISIS in Syria, all credit to him.

 

You might remember things got even more tense then when Turkish jets shot down some Russian helicopters in Syria at the end of the conflict, killing Russian pilots and soldiers. There was instant panic - the debate in The West was whether NATO allies should step up to fight for Turkey when the inevitable Russian retaliation occurred. There was talk of what that would lead to - rapid escalation to nuclear war with Russia was strongly predicted.

Then a pic came out showing Erdogan and Putin shaking hands and smiling. Putin kept a cool head and brought us back from the brink.

Can you imagine what would have happened if the boot had been on the other foot? Would the Yanks have restrained themselves? I really doubt it. They'd have retaliated, whatever the outcome.

 

So I gave Putin a lot of credit for calmness in the face of Western/NATO provocation.

That's why I was shocked and depressed when I saw him invade Ukraine.

Whatever the provocation, he should never have fallen into the trap laid by NATO (under direction of the US). He blew it. He lost the head. I lost my respect for him.

His army has been defeated and degraded, and he is now a pariah in much of the world. All part of the plan no doubt.

Such a pity.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[newbee2022]

2 minutes ago, Flyguy330 said:

His army has been defeated and degraded, and he is now a pariah in much of the world

I actually don't agree. Russia is able to continue the war for years up to the last Ukrainian soldier.

And the pariah? Hmmh. The biggest part is China plus Russia or check all BRICS. 

I think the West played a dirty game with him and lost.

[Flyguy330]

Oh sure. Continue throwing men into the meat grinder - why not, got loads to spare eh?!

That's not leadership. That's sheer arrogance.

 

I remember as a kid watching UK TV shows about Soviet strategy for the defeat of Europe in a conventional war. It was all about vast mechanised ranks of the Red Army sweeping in out of the East, with no hope of Europe stopping them, except by resorting to nukes, and then game over for everyone. We believed it. It was terrifying.

 

Now look what we've seen. The 'blitzkrieg' that was meant to defeat puny Kiev in 3 days has ground on for 3 years. No all defeating mechanised Red Army - their tanks only looked spectacular in how high the turrets could fly. They ground to a halt and took to the trenches. They have no answer to drone warfare. It's all a pathetic shadow of what was hyped. Russia has gained ground, but lost respect as a super power.

 

Yes, he's a pariah now - and sure, his remaining support will come from Brics, but with them too the RESPECT they had for the Russian army in the past has surely faded. They've seen it reduced to a farce. China has had territorial disputes with Russia for years. They aren't necessarily best buddies forever.

And never forget the Wagner episode. That almost ended it.

[OneMoreFarang]

When I grew up in Europe we had the cold war. And then the Berlin Wall was destroyed, Germany was reunited, and the future looked bright.

At that time, it seems we all thought things will only get better. 

European countries reduced the size of their military and there were talks about dissolving NATO because the enemy USSR didn't exist anymore.

If anybody would have suggested spending more money on weapons people would not have voted for this. Like, where is the enemy? Why should we spend a lot of money?

 

And then the USA started wars with Iraq and Afghanistan. And later European soldiers joined them. Why? It seems to me like: We have anyhow those soldiers, send then down there. How many people in Europe wanted to see their soldiers in Afghanistan? Few!

 

And then, sometime later, Russia invaded Ukraine. It seems that was a surprise for most of us. We just didn't think any invasion of a country nearby was a possibility. We found out it really happened and is still happening.

 

And I think that was the moment that Europe, not really united, woke up and realized there is no peace anymore and soldiers and weapons are necessary again. But this happened slowly. And everybody knew we had our friends, the Americans, with the big weapons...

 

And then Trump happened, again.

And now Europeans can't pretend anymore that Trump (1) was just a stupid mistake which Americans wouldn't do again. Now Europeans really understand that they can't reply on America and NATO anymore. It was drastic, and people say Europeans should have woken up earlier. They didn't.

 

But I think now Europeans realize that they need a better defense. And they will work on that. It just takes time.

[Yellowtail]

3 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

When I grew up in Europe we had the cold war. And then the Berlin Wall was destroyed, Germany was reunited, and the future looked bright.

At that time, it seems we all thought things will only get better. 

European countries reduced the size of their military and there were talks about dissolving NATO because the enemy USSR didn't exist anymore.

If anybody would have suggested spending more money on weapons people would not have voted for this. Like, where is the enemy? Why should we spend a lot of money?

 

And then the USA started wars with Iraq and Afghanistan. And later European soldiers joined them. Why? It seems to me like: We have anyhow those soldiers, send then down there. How many people in Europe wanted to see their soldiers in Afghanistan? Few!

 

And then, sometime later, Russia invaded Ukraine. It seems that was a surprise for most of us. We just didn't think any invasion of a country nearby was a possibility. We found out it really happened and is still happening.

 

And I think that was the moment that Europe, not really united, woke up and realized there is no peace anymore and soldiers and weapons are necessary again. But this happened slowly. And everybody knew we had our friends, the Americans, with the big weapons...

 

And then Trump happened, again.

And now Europeans can't pretend anymore that Trump (1) was just a stupid mistake which Americans wouldn't do again. Now Europeans really understand that they can't reply on America and NATO anymore. It was drastic, and people say Europeans should have woken up earlier. They didn't.

 

But I think now Europeans realize that they need a better defense. And they will work on that. It just takes time.

So, you think the US should bow out and let Europe worry about Europe? 

[candide]

6 hours ago, Flyguy330 said:

 

For a long time I liked Putin. He seemed to be one of the sanest leaders in the world. Watch his Oliver Stone interview and you can see why. 

Remember how Russia handled the World Cup in 2018? Brits were interviewed expressing trepidation before going there for the games. After they got there they were full of praise for the friendly reception they got, and the efficiency of how it was all run. There was a huge opportunity to improve relations with Russia in that moment.

 

It was Russia that obliterated ISIS in Syria in Dec 2017, when the US was egging the jihadists on because they fitted the the US main agenda to unseat Assad (at the demand of Netanyahu). 

Assad was a secular leader - ISIS were rabid Jihadists, out to murder all non muslims. Putin did what the US couldn't/wouldn't, he defeated ISIS in Syria, all credit to him.

 

You might remember things got even more tense then when Turkish jets shot down some Russian helicopters in Syria at the end of the conflict, killing Russian pilots and soldiers. There was instant panic - the debate in The West was whether NATO allies should step up to fight for Turkey when the inevitable Russian retaliation occurred. There was talk of what that would lead to - rapid escalation to nuclear war with Russia was strongly predicted.

Then a pic came out showing Erdogan and Putin shaking hands and smiling. Putin kept a cool head and brought us back from the brink.

Can you imagine what would have happened if the boot had been on the other foot? Would the Yanks have restrained themselves? I really doubt it. They'd have retaliated, whatever the outcome.

 

So I gave Putin a lot of credit for calmness in the face of Western/NATO provocation.

That's why I was shocked and depressed when I saw him invade Ukraine.

Whatever the provocation, he should never have fallen into the trap laid by NATO (under direction of the US). He blew it. He lost the head. I lost my respect for him.

His army has been defeated and degraded, and he is now a pariah in much of the world. All part of the plan no doubt.

Such a pity.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It was not an helicopter but a jet flying over Turkish territory despite being warned 10 times. It was unfortunate but there had been several airspace violation by Russia previously. It was obvious that Putin would not have started a war for that.

[beautifulthailand99]

Anybody here going to offer up their children or pay more taxes / cuts to our welfare states ?I thought not. As you were - talk is cheap. I was born live and will die in the UK - it is my home surrounded by water and with nikes. That's enough for me - those on the mainland will need to make their own arrangments.

[OneMoreFarang]

On 2/15/2025 at 7:58 PM, candide said:

Currently, European countries are unable to agree on a common project. At best, there may be a possibility of a few countries agreeing on some common projects, for a start.

Util now they didn't have to do that.

Now, with Trump, they have to, and they are motivated to do something.

I am sure it will take some time, but the direction from here is pretty clear. 

[OneMoreFarang]

Wow, two pages of interesting long posts. That's the way a forum should be.

Maybe the Americans are still sleeping. I guess in the next hours they will wake up and then we will have the typical stupid comments.

 

Thanks to all of you for good and respectful post.

[Flyguy330]

4 hours ago, candide said:

It was not an helicopter but a jet flying over Turkish territory despite being warned 10 times. It was unfortunate but there had been several airspace violation by Russia previously. It was obvious that Putin would not have started a war for that.

 

Turkey colluded in the rise of ISIS in Syria by allowing foreign jihadists free passage. Like that bitch Begum and her little bitch friends (may they burn in hell). Under Erdogan Turkey is a proto Islamist state. Turkey deserves to be whacked actually. He plays both sides, like a typical islamist always does. NATO ally my ar5e. That's why the debate about defending him from Russia was contentious. Nobody in Europe fancies burning for Erdogan.

[beautifulthailand99]

19 hours ago, Flyguy330 said:

 

Turkey colluded in the rise of ISIS in Syria by allowing foreign jihadists free passage. Like that bitch Begum and her little bitch friends (may they burn in hell). Under Erdogan Turkey is a proto Islamist state. Turkey deserves to be whacked actually. He plays both sides, like a typical islamist always does. NATO ally my ar5e. That's why the debate about defending him from Russia was contentious. Nobody in Europe fancies burning for Erdogan.

He's like Thailand looking for cash from anynody who will front it - but like Trump he's only in it for himself.

[xtrnuno41]

On 2/18/2025 at 6:41 AM, Flyguy330 said:

 

For a long time I liked Putin. He seemed to be one of the sanest leaders in the world. Watch his Oliver Stone interview and you can see why. 

Remember how Russia handled the World Cup in 2018? Brits were interviewed expressing trepidation before going there for the games. After they got there they were full of praise for the friendly reception they got, and the efficiency of how it was all run. There was a huge opportunity to improve relations with Russia in that moment.

 

It was Russia that obliterated ISIS in Syria in Dec 2017, when the US was egging the jihadists on because they fitted the the US main agenda to unseat Assad (at the demand of Netanyahu). 

Assad was a secular leader - ISIS were rabid Jihadists, out to murder all non muslims. Putin did what the US couldn't/wouldn't, he defeated ISIS in Syria, all credit to him.

 

You might remember things got even more tense then when Turkish jets shot down some Russian helicopters in Syria at the end of the conflict, killing Russian pilots and soldiers. There was instant panic - the debate in The West was whether NATO allies should step up to fight for Turkey when the inevitable Russian retaliation occurred. There was talk of what that would lead to - rapid escalation to nuclear war with Russia was strongly predicted.

Then a pic came out showing Erdogan and Putin shaking hands and smiling. Putin kept a cool head and brought us back from the brink.

Can you imagine what would have happened if the boot had been on the other foot? Would the Yanks have restrained themselves? I really doubt it. They'd have retaliated, whatever the outcome.

 

So I gave Putin a lot of credit for calmness in the face of Western/NATO provocation.

That's why I was shocked and depressed when I saw him invade Ukraine.

Whatever the provocation, he should never have fallen into the trap laid by NATO (under direction of the US). He blew it. He lost the head. I lost my respect for him.

His army has been defeated and degraded, and he is now a pariah in much of the world. All part of the plan no doubt.

Such a pity.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well I dont know if I have seen the same, or maybe another docu.

But hearing Putin on what he said, he definitely had my respect and thought him wise.

So then the invasion came and I had the same feeling as you did, very disappointed.

Was he then such a great liar? I cant tell

Yahoo news brought in the beginning , Putin had 2 directions for war, the other one was Japan, as they have a conflict over a stupid island. No idea where Yahoo had this found.

Just what I red, nothing more and amazed.

 

Another thing was Putin hates nazi's and therefore he invaded Ukraine.

He had to choose? Where he got the info about nazi's then? USA?!

Is USA indeed then a firestarter? Mis info to Putin about nazi's?

USA has changed a lot, not for the better (mo) and they have so many "secret" sections, on which no one knows what they are doing. So could be a possibility.

Americans arent even sure, if 911 was an act of an USA section.

Ha, not even sure who shot Kennedy.

If you make a war, then money starts to flow and USA, as manufacturer of many war materials, is the winner. Money , world domination thats it

 

Questionable is now Trump, he is bringing up a lot of world up stirring, I call, nonsense.

So how crazy he is? USE (United States of Europe) as a minor gaming party in USA's vision.

"My" country following and did a bombing for USA, costing 70 innocent people's live and many more injured in terrible way.

The USE is just doomed and not of importance, a diversion act. Puppets on a string and Trump now shows it wide open.

Well ok see what happens, before the asteroid is destroying over 7 years.

USE will do nothing at all, as "friend" of USA. 

They dont even dare to speak up about Israel, as bigger (?) friend of USA. 

Games are played and nothing else matters.

 

[swissie]

On 2/18/2025 at 12:52 PM, OneMoreFarang said:

When I grew up in Europe we had the cold war. And then the Berlin Wall was destroyed, Germany was reunited, and the future looked bright.

At that time, it seems we all thought things will only get better. 

European countries reduced the size of their military and there were talks about dissolving NATO because the enemy USSR didn't exist anymore.

If anybody would have suggested spending more money on weapons people would not have voted for this. Like, where is the enemy? Why should we spend a lot of money?

 

And then the USA started wars with Iraq and Afghanistan. And later European soldiers joined them. Why? It seems to me like: We have anyhow those soldiers, send then down there. How many people in Europe wanted to see their soldiers in Afghanistan? Few!

 

And then, sometime later, Russia invaded Ukraine. It seems that was a surprise for most of us. We just didn't think any invasion of a country nearby was a possibility. We found out it really happened and is still happening.

 

And I think that was the moment that Europe, not really united, woke up and realized there is no peace anymore and soldiers and weapons are necessary again. But this happened slowly. And everybody knew we had our friends, the Americans, with the big weapons...

 

And then Trump happened, again.

And now Europeans can't pretend anymore that Trump (1) was just a stupid mistake which Americans wouldn't do again. Now Europeans really understand that they can't reply on America and NATO anymore. It was drastic, and people say Europeans should have woken up earlier. They didn't.

 

But I think now Europeans realize that they need a better defense. And they will work on that. It just takes time.

It takes time and money. Both of them we don't have.