Nato Expansion the beginning of the end

[riclag]

Wow ! How many AN members  know the truth! Be honest .
The Declassified   Documents show security assurances. 

 

“US Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on 9 February 1990 was only part of a cascade of similar assurances”.

 

and then

“The promises not to expand NATO only lasted until 1997, however, when Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary were invited into the alliance. In total, 13 Eastern European states have become NATO members since then”.

 

https://natowatch.org/newsbriefs/2018/how-gorbachev-was-misled-over-assurances-against-nato-expansion

 

“Ukraine’s membership in NATO was hardly imminent, but Russia felt threatened enough by the possibility that it was willing to launch a war to prevent it . . . Recognizing the dynamic at play is the first step toward understanding the conflict” . . .

 

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/17506352231216908

Whats Europe gonna do, send troops, 

arm Ukraine to the hilt ! 

Further escalation is dumb ,a ceasefire  and negotiate a peace agreement.

[bubblegum]

These countries asked to become member as they where afraid of another Soviet invation.

[candide]

4 hours ago, riclag said:

Wow ! How many AN members  know the truth! Be honest .
The Declassified   Documents show security assurances. 

 

“US Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on 9 February 1990 was only part of a cascade of similar assurances”.

 

and then

“The promises not to expand NATO only lasted until 1997, however, when Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary were invited into the alliance. In total, 13 Eastern European states have become NATO members since then”.

 

https://natowatch.org/newsbriefs/2018/how-gorbachev-was-misled-over-assurances-against-nato-expansion

 

“Ukraine’s membership in NATO was hardly imminent, but Russia felt threatened enough by the possibility that it was willing to launch a war to prevent it . . . Recognizing the dynamic at play is the first step toward understanding the conflict” . . .

 

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/17506352231216908

Whats Europe gonna do, send troops, 

arm Ukraine to the hilt ! 

Further escalation is dumb ,a ceasefire  and negotiate a peace agreement.

Wow! Another MAGA fan is now pro-Russia! 

[SunnyinBangrak]

4 hours ago, riclag said:

Wow ! How many AN members  know the truth! Be honest .
The Declassified   Documents show security assurances. 

 

“US Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on 9 February 1990 was only part of a cascade of similar assurances”.

 

and then

“The promises not to expand NATO only lasted until 1997, however, when Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary were invited into the alliance. In total, 13 Eastern European states have become NATO members since then”.

 

https://natowatch.org/newsbriefs/2018/how-gorbachev-was-misled-over-assurances-against-nato-expansion

 

“Ukraine’s membership in NATO was hardly imminent, but Russia felt threatened enough by the possibility that it was willing to launch a war to prevent it . . . Recognizing the dynamic at play is the first step toward understanding the conflict” . . .

 

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/17506352231216908

Whats Europe gonna do, send troops, 

arm Ukraine to the hilt ! 

Further escalation is dumb ,a ceasefire  and negotiate a peace agreement.

They are not going to like hearing this. It's the opposite of what their democrat propaganda tells. Facts crushing another daft narrative. Ouch.

[rabang]

55 minutes ago, candide said:

Wow! Another MAGA fan is now pro-Russia! 

These seem to go hand in hand without exception.

[rabang]

5 hours ago, riclag said:

Wow ! How many AN members  know the truth! Be honest .
The Declassified   Documents show security assurances. 

 

“US Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on 9 February 1990 was only part of a cascade of similar assurances”.

 

and then

“The promises not to expand NATO only lasted until 1997, however, when Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary were invited into the alliance. In total, 13 Eastern European states have become NATO members since then”.

 

https://natowatch.org/newsbriefs/2018/how-gorbachev-was-misled-over-assurances-against-nato-expansion

 

“Ukraine’s membership in NATO was hardly imminent, but Russia felt threatened enough by the possibility that it was willing to launch a war to prevent it . . . Recognizing the dynamic at play is the first step toward understanding the conflict” . . .

 

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/17506352231216908

Whats Europe gonna do, send troops, 

arm Ukraine to the hilt ! 

Further escalation is dumb ,a ceasefire  and negotiate a peace agreement.

Baker meant East Germany, besides it was not an agreement of any kind. Russia and USA gave assurances to secure Ukraine in 1994 and look where we are now.

[riclag]

59 minutes ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

They are not going to like hearing this. It's the opposite of what their democrat propaganda tells. Facts crushing another daft narrative. Ouch.

They aint gonna like this either, What 2017 Declassified docs show. 

“The documents show that multiple national leaders were considering and rejecting Central and Eastern European membership in NATO as of early 1990 and through 1991, that discussions of NATO in the context of German unification negotiations in 1990 were not at all narrowly limited to the status of East German territory, and that subsequent Soviet and Russian complaints about being misled about NATO expansion were founded in written contemporaneous memcons and telcons at the highest levels.

 

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

[rough diamond]

6 hours ago, riclag said:

Wow ! How many AN members  know the truth! Be honest .
The Declassified   Documents show security assurances. 

 

“US Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on 9 February 1990 was only part of a cascade of similar assurances”.

 

and then

“The promises not to expand NATO only lasted until 1997, however, when Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary were invited into the alliance. In total, 13 Eastern European states have become NATO members since then”.

 

https://natowatch.org/newsbriefs/2018/how-gorbachev-was-misled-over-assurances-against-nato-expansion

 

“Ukraine’s membership in NATO was hardly imminent, but Russia felt threatened enough by the possibility that it was willing to launch a war to prevent it . . . Recognizing the dynamic at play is the first step toward understanding the conflict” . . .

 

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/17506352231216908

Whats Europe gonna do, send troops, 

arm Ukraine to the hilt ! 

Further escalation is dumb ,a ceasefire  and negotiate a peace agreement.

Did you read your link;

https://natowatch.org/newsbriefs/2018/how-gorbachev-was-misled-over-assurances-against-nato-expansion 

It states;

"None of the assurances of non-expansion were included in any treaty documents, as NATO makes clear in its official explanation on its website: “NATO allies take decisions by consensus and these are recorded. There is no record of any such decision having been taken by NATO. Personal assurances, from NATO leaders, cannot replace alliance consensus and do not constitute a formal NATO agreement”.

 

All the other comments mentioned are claimed to be quotes from personnel but none with linked sources Whether they support or do not support the argument. 

 

Here are some comments with a different view from the same link;

""Former US ambassador to Moscow Michael McFaul labelled the idea of a reneged promise a “myth” in an interview in 2016. Other experts have labelled Russian grievances as a case of “false memory syndrome”."

[Hellfire]

Putin did express interest in NATO at various points, especially in the early 2000s. There were multiple instances where he inquired about Russia's potential membership or a closer partnership with NATO:

1. Early 2000s Discussions – In 2000, during an interview with the BBC, Putin said Russia could consider joining NATO if its interests were taken into account.
2. Talks with Bill Clinton – Reportedly, Putin asked then-U.S. President Bill Clinton about Russia joining NATO. Clinton seemed open to the idea, but nothing came of it.
3. Closer Cooperation with NATO – In 2001-2002, Russia engaged in deeper cooperation with NATO through the NATO-Russia Council, though it was never an official membership pathway.

 

-------

 

Strangely enough, Putin was not scared of NATO "expansion" some 20 years ago. And Russia was a much more poor and weak country back then. 

[dinsdale]

NATO expansion played a role in this war. 

[rabang]

One should keep in mind that Putin as a former KGB spy is a professional liar.

[Hellfire]

1 minute ago, dinsdale said:

NATO expansion played a role in this war. 

I would say that this war played a role in NATO expansion (Finland and Sweden decided to join the alliance). 

[transam]

2 minutes ago, rabang said:

One should keep in mind that Putin as a former KGB spy is a professional liar.

A bit like Trump, the professional liar bit........🤥

[transam]

17 minutes ago, dinsdale said:

NATO expansion played a role in this war. 

You got that the wrong way round..........🙄.....................

[rabang]

Ma

14 minutes ago, transam said:

A bit like Trump, the professional liar bit........🤥

Maybe that is why Trump seems so fond of him.

[Hellfire]

  Who in their right mind would attack a nuclear superpower like Russia? After the fall of the USSR (1991), Russia was at its weakest—economically, militarily, and politically. If the U.S. and the West had truly wanted to "destroy" Russia (a central myth of Russian internal propaganda), there could not have been a better time to act. Instead, the West provided humanitarian aid to prevent mass starvation and helped integrate Russia into global institutions like the G8 and the NATO-Russia Council.

  The idea that NATO expanded in 1997 and 2004 with the goal of eventually attacking Russia is absurd—something only an uneducated Russian audience, bombarded by state propaganda, could believe. And now, in a bizarre twist, this delusion has also found a home among certain far-right circles in the West, particularly among MAGA activists.

[transam]

Just now, rabang said:

Ma

Maybe that is why Trump seems so fond of him.

Two peas in a pod using their 'power', and similar 'abilities' to be AH's.............🤢

[transam]

1 minute ago, Hellfire said:

  Who in their right mind would attack a nuclear superpower like Russia? After the fall of the USSR (1991), Russia was at its weakest—economically, militarily, and politically. If the U.S. and the West had truly wanted to "destroy" Russia (a central myth of Russian internal propaganda), there could not have been a better time to act. Instead, the West provided humanitarian aid to prevent mass starvation and helped integrate Russia into global institutions like the G8 and the NATO-Russia Council.

  The idea that NATO expanded in 1997 and 2004 with the goal of eventually attacking Russia is absurd—something only an uneducated Russian audience, bombarded by state propaganda, could believe. And now, in a bizarre twist, this delusion has also found a home among certain far-right circles in the West, particularly among MAGA activists.

..........and on here........😬............🤕

[TedG]

7 hours ago, riclag said:

Wow ! How many AN members  know the truth! Be honest .
The Declassified   Documents show security assurances. 

 

“US Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on 9 February 1990 was only part of a cascade of similar assurances”.

 

and then

“The promises not to expand NATO only lasted until 1997, however, when Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary were invited into the alliance. In total, 13 Eastern European states have become NATO members since then”.

 

https://natowatch.org/newsbriefs/2018/how-gorbachev-was-misled-over-assurances-against-nato-expansion

 

“Ukraine’s membership in NATO was hardly imminent, but Russia felt threatened enough by the possibility that it was willing to launch a war to prevent it . . . Recognizing the dynamic at play is the first step toward understanding the conflict” . . .

 

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/17506352231216908

Whats Europe gonna do, send troops, 

arm Ukraine to the hilt ! 

Further escalation is dumb ,a ceasefire  and negotiate a peace agreement.

 

You can judge Russia by the company they keep.  Who is Russia allied with?  NK, Iran, China?    Countries joined NATO because they wanted nothing to do with Russia.  

 

[rabang]

1 minute ago, TedG said:

 

You can judge Russia by the company they keep.  Who is Russia allied with?  NK, Iran, China?    Countries joined NATO because they wanted nothing to do with Russia.  

 

Russians don't see any win-win scenarios.

[TedG]

3 minutes ago, rabang said:

Russians don't see any win-win scenarios.

The win-win scenario is to act like a civilized country and stop attacking other countries for no reason.   Russia is a garbage country with delusions of grandeur. 

[gamb00ler]

8 hours ago, riclag said:

“US Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on 9 February 1990 was only part of a cascade of similar assurances”.

Assurances by politicians should be weighed carefully especially early in negotiations.  Since the 'assurance' wasn't included in the agreement signed in Sep. 1990 the proffered restriction on NATO rightfully faded away.  Were the Soviet signatories sleeping...?

[Mike_Hunt]

8 hours ago, riclag said:

 

 

“Ukraine’s membership in NATO was hardly imminent, but Russia felt threatened enough by the possibility that it was willing to launch a war to prevent it . . . Recognizing the dynamic at play is the first step toward understanding the conflict” . . .

 

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/17506352231216908

 

Oh, come on man.  This is all Russian propaganda.    The only country that is even thinking about attacking Russia is China.  

[Dan O]

8 hours ago, riclag said:

Wow ! How many AN members  know the truth! Be honest .
The Declassified   Documents show security assurances. 

 

“US Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on 9 February 1990 was only part of a cascade of similar assurances”.

 

and then

“The promises not to expand NATO only lasted until 1997, however, when Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary were invited into the alliance. In total, 13 Eastern European states have become NATO members since then”.

 

https://natowatch.org/newsbriefs/2018/how-gorbachev-was-misled-over-assurances-against-nato-expansion

 

“Ukraine’s membership in NATO was hardly imminent, but Russia felt threatened enough by the possibility that it was willing to launch a war to prevent it . . . Recognizing the dynamic at play is the first step toward understanding the conflict” . . .

 

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/17506352231216908

Whats Europe gonna do, send troops, 

arm Ukraine to the hilt ! 

Further escalation is dumb ,a ceasefire  and negotiate a peace agreement.

It takes both sides to negotiate a peace deal. As long as 1 side wants to dominate the deal with unrealistic demands and Trump continues to insert stupid stipulation it won't happen anytime soon 

[bannork]

2 hours ago, Hellfire said:

I would say that this war played a role in NATO expansion (Finland and Sweden decided to join the alliance). 

Italy's suggestion

Extending NATO's Article 5 to Ukraine without the country becoming a full member of the Alliance. would help expose the bluff of Russian President Vladimir Putin, said Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni.

"If Russia does not plan to invade its neighbours again, it is unclear why it should not accept security guarantees that are purely defensive," she stated.

Italian PM explains why she insists on extending NATO’s Article 5 to Ukraine

[johng]

6 minutes ago, bannork said:

Extending NATO's Article 5 to Ukraine without the country becoming a full member of the Alliance. would help expose the bluff of Russian President Vladimir Putin

 

The bluff of the largest country in the world  and holding joint equal amounts of nuclear weapons   you want to call their bluff !!  no wonder they named it MAD.

[bannork]

1 minute ago, johng said:

 

The bluff of the largest country in the world  and holding joint equal amounts of nuclear weapons   you want to call their bluff !!  no wonder they named it MAD.

I guess the Italians have shred their image of cowards from WW2.

[johng]

41 minutes ago, bannork said:

I guess the Italians have shred their image of cowards from WW2.

 

Wasn't that the French ?  anyway  there really isn't much to contemplate when confronted with overwhelming  military firepower  run out and hit them with broomsticks  that will work....not.

[Mike_Hunt]

47 minutes ago, johng said:

 

The bluff of the largest country in the world  and holding joint equal amounts of nuclear weapons   you want to call their bluff !!  no wonder they named it MAD.

Russia is the largest country based on land mass.   How does Russia rank based on GDP?

[johng]

16 minutes ago, Mike_Hunt said:

How does Russia rank based on GDP?

 

Don't know don't care  it's irrelevant they have the nukes.