2 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

Again your argument is "because humans didn't go extinct before vaccines, we therefore don't need vaccines". To Hell with the people who did die or will die of otherwise preventable diseases.

And because crocodiles are around and they didn't get vaccines then there's no need.

 

No that is not what I said...I said that life on earth has existed and flourished for millions of years before "the science"   go back to the graphic above that states

"I can live without your babble, you can't live without my science.

 

9 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

To Hell with the people who did die or will die of otherwise preventable diseases.

Maybe more die from preventable wars and entirely preventable poverty ..so that some mega corp has good profits this year ?

 

 

6 minutes ago, johng said:

Maybe more die from preventable wars and entirely preventable poverty ..so that some mega corp has good profits this year ?

I actually agree with that, but it has nothing to do with your anti-vac conspiracy nonsense.

1 hour ago, josephbloggs said:

Again your argument is "because humans didn't go extinct before vaccines, we therefore don't need vaccines". To Hell with the people who did die or will die of otherwise preventable diseases.

And because crocodiles are around and they didn't get vaccines then there's no need.

So you're saying we shouldn't have vaccines because the dinosaurs in the Jurassic period didn't have them  (we've had between 5 and 20 mass extinctions so for- most of which lasted much longer than th current era - -  let me get this straight — because crocodiles didn’t need vaccines, humans don’t either? Seriously?

Crocodiles also don’t have electricity, medicine, or the internet — should we ditch all that too?

Humans didn’t survive this long just by “adapting.” We made fire. We built cities. We cured diseases. That’s science. It’s not some optional luxury — it’s the reason we’re not all dying from infections or drinking filthy water.

Stop pretending evolution alone got us here. Evolution gave us brains — science is how we used them to stop dying young. Comparing us to animals that haven’t changed in 200 million years isn’t clever. It’s lazy.

You want to live like a crocodile? Be my guest. The rest of us are trying to stay healthy with the tools we actually have — like vaccines.

 

I think you ought to think about extinctions and also human life expectancy - or do you think "to hell with them"? - actually on second thoughts don't bother I don't even know why I'm bothering with you.

5 minutes ago, kwilco said:

So let me get this straight — because crocodiles didn’t need vaccines, humans don’t either? Seriously?

Crocodiles also don’t have electricity, medicine, or the internet — should we ditch all that too?

Humans didn’t survive this long just by “adapting.” We made fire. We built cities. We cured diseases. That’s science. It’s not some optional luxury — it’s the reason we’re not all dying from infections or drinking filthy water.

Stop pretending evolution alone got us here. Evolution gave us brains — science is how we used them to stop dying young. Comparing us to animals that haven’t changed in 200 million years isn’t clever. It’s lazy.

You want to live like a crocodile? Be my guest. The rest of us are trying to stay healthy with the tools we actually have — like vaccines.

 

I think you ought to think about extinctions and also human life expectancy - or do you think "to hell with them"?

Are you sure you meant to respond to me? I was making the same point.
 

Japan stopped mandatory baby vaccinations in 1994, though still recommend some common sense ones.

 

Infant mortality rate (per 1000) vs USA silly vaccine policy.

 

source: https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/infant-mortality-rate/country-comparison/

14 hours ago, Mark Nothing said:

It is nice to see those with critical thinking skills and discernment question the nonsense.  The big health breakthroughs occur upon throwing the baby out with the bath water and looking in a totally different direction for the answers to health and vitality.  Do you have what it takes to handle the truth?

 

Yes !   Even to look closely at both sides, and all sides..... first .

5 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Japan stopped mandatory baby vaccinations in 1994, though still recommend some common sense ones.

 

Infant mortality rate (per 1000) vs USA silly vaccine policy.

 

source: https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/infant-mortality-rate/country-comparison/

This is misleading. Japan didn't stop vaccinating babies—they just changed some vaccines from "mandatory" to "recommended" in 1994, and uptake remains high. Japan still vaccinates against all the major diseases.

Also, infant mortality has many causes (prenatal care, maternal health, NICU access, etc.) and differences in reporting standards make country comparisons tricky. The U.S., for example, counts extremely premature births as live births—many other countries don’t, which skews the numbers.

Cherry-picking IMR and ignoring all this context doesn’t prove anything about vaccine safety.

It DOES show that America has one of the worst healthcare systems in the developed world.

 

PS - 

Japan’s vaccine uptake is comparable to or higher than the USA for most core childhood vaccines.

Japan’s vaccination program is publicly funded and vaccines are widely administered in clinics and health centers.

The idea that Japan “stopped vaccinating” is completely false—they just reclassified mandates, but recommendations and uptake remained strong.

19 minutes ago, kwilco said:

This is misleading. Japan didn't stop vaccinating babies—they just changed some vaccines from "mandatory" to "recommended" in 1994, and uptake remains high. Japan still vaccinates against all the major diseases.

Also, infant mortality has many causes (prenatal care, maternal health, NICU access, etc.) and differences in reporting standards make country comparisons tricky. The U.S., for example, counts extremely premature births as live births—many other countries don’t, which skews the numbers.

Cherry-picking IMR and ignoring all this context doesn’t prove anything about vaccine safety.

It DOES show that America has one of the worst healthcare systems in the developed world.

 

PS - 

Japan’s vaccine uptake is comparable to or higher than the USA for most core childhood vaccines.

Japan’s vaccination program is publicly funded and vaccines are widely administered in clinics and health centers.

The idea that Japan “stopped vaccinating” is completely false—they just reclassified mandates, but recommendations and uptake remained strong.

Not misleading at all, as that's exactly what I posted, same as you.

 

Only thing false is you implying, I may have implied they stopped vaccinated.  From my reply ...

 

... "Japan stopped mandatory baby vaccinations in 1994, though still recommend some common sense ones." ...

 

Ones I certainly wouldn't subject my kids to, would be MMR, Hep B & Polio, or any others at such an early age.   Give their immune system a year of so to develop naturally.  It doesn't need help ... IMHO

 

USA's policy of injecting 20-30 shots before age the of 2,  thing that they don't need (Hep & Polio) or don't work (MMR), is looney tunes.   As the mortality rates show. 2+X the risk of dying.

 

It should always be ... "My body, My choice"

9 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Only thing false is you implying, I may have implied they stopped vaccinated. 

no I don't

 

Covid lockdowns and covid paranoia dictatorship are one thing. Vaccines are quite another thing.

 

Plus, not all vaccines are equal. Yes, some vaccines - just like other medications - may eventually turn out to do as much harm as they do good. But overall vaccines belong to what's best in modern medicine. They're the reason why we have ageing populations the World over.

 

To the grow men out there who fight a rearguard battle against vaccines, why don't you fight for something worth it? What about fighting for your sexual rights in your own country, instead of signing them away to fly half way around the world in order to get laid in mosquito-ridden countries where you can't stomach the food? How about that for a change?

Top FDA official admits she refused the Covid-19 vaccine while pregnant

A senior regulator’s admission reveals uncomfortable truths about silence, ethics and trust inside the FDA.

 

https://blog.maryannedemasi.com/p/top-fda-official-admits-she-refused

On 5/24/2025 at 8:23 PM, josephbloggs said:

Are you sure you meant to respond to me? I was making the same point.
 

I think the comment was aimed at me  but never mind

 

On 5/24/2025 at 8:17 PM, kwilco said:

actually on second thoughts don't bother I don't even know why I'm bothering with you.

up to you !!  and P.S  who said I am anti vaccine ?  you go ahead and take as many as you want to.  

I am anti mandatory,coerced,forced injection of a novel,fast tracked concoction

the shaming and censoring of anyone who objected or raised now well proven safety issues.

There is also the tiny side issue of the massive excess death,turbo cancers  and lower fertility rates that seem to be related to these novel concoctions...but don't be bothered about that either...the "fact checkers" have said nothing to see here. 

The video doesn't seem to have made it to "youtube" yet

 

fast forward to about 11.10  she plainly says she did not get the jab

https://www.facebook.com/brownstoneinst/videos/sara-brenner-md-mph-is-principal-deputy-commissioner-office-of-the-commissioner-/1213292213673253/

A long one.

https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/subcommittees/investigations/hearings/the-corruption-of-science-and-federal-health-agencies-how-health-officials-downplayed-and-hid-myocarditis-and-other-adverse-events-associated-with-the-covid-19-vaccines/

 

and

https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025.05.21-PSI-Majority-Staff-Interim-Report-Failure-to-Warn.pdf

 

 

On 5/24/2025 at 12:16 PM, johng said:

It was stated that you can't live without "the science" which is plainly wrong.

No it wasn't, and you clearly don't know what science means -  I get really  tired of people throwing around the word "science" like it's some vague magical belief system or personal opinion. It’s not. Science isn't a vibe. It’s not a religion. It doesn’t care how you feel about it.

Science means knowledge, gained through evidence. It's a method — a brutal, unforgiving process of observation, hypothesis, testing, and verification. You know what that means? It means if you're wrong, the data will tell you. And if you ignore the data? You're not “doing your own research” — you’re just being willfully ignorant.

Science isn’t perfect, but unlike armchair opinions, it corrects itself. That’s the whole point. It changes when new evidence comes in. That’s not weakness — that’s the power of it. If you're clinging to outdated nonsense just because it matches your worldview, congratulations: you're anti-science.

So next time you're tempted to say "science says" or argue against it with a YouTube video and a feeling in your gut, learn what the word actually means. Science is not on your side. It’s on the side of reality.

Deal with it.

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

It’s on the side of reality.

Deal with it.

This is the whole point: there exist a reality,  that you cannot argue away with beautiful rhetoric.

One or two generations of Americans grew up believing in beautiful words,  nice-sounding blabla, where "research" means looking something up in Google and where finance pays more and has a higher image than engineering.

ChatGPT tops it all.

 

There are many countries where people still know a real world,  outside of Facebook and tiktok, does exist. 

Societies that are not yet "affluent", and pamper there decadent brats.

Thailand,  for example. 

 

 

10 hours ago, johng said:

A long one.

https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/subcommittees/investigations/hearings/the-corruption-of-science-and-federal-health-agencies-how-health-officials-downplayed-and-hid-myocarditis-and-other-adverse-events-associated-with-the-covid-19-vaccines/

 

and

https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025.05.21-PSI-Majority-Staff-Interim-Report-Failure-to-Warn.pdf

 

 

 

I think you need to read up on references/cherry picking etc -THis is the kind of mistakes that school kids and undergraduates make -  I posted earlier about how the less academic are not used to dealing with this and there is no science involved, just a Senate committeee; you should be gathering information from a wider range of sources and look at how other countries handled covid

 While there is a recognised, albeit rare, risk of myocarditis following mRNA COVID-19 vaccination—especially among young males—the condition is generally mild and resolves with minimal intervention. The risk of myocarditis from COVID-19 infection remains higher than from vaccination. Ongoing research and surveillance continue to inform vaccine recommendations and safety protocols.

3 hours ago, kwilco said:

The risk of myocarditis from COVID-19 infection remains higher than from vaccination. 

Wouldn't that be impossible to prove ?

 

vaccinated, get covid & myocarditis ...  which caused it ?

7 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Wouldn't that be impossible to prove ?

 

They obviously have a time machine   dohh !!  😋

17 hours ago, kwilco said:

No it wasn't, and you clearly don't know what science means -  I get really  tired of people throwing around the word "science" like it's some vague magical belief system or personal opinion

Who posted this ?

Does it say   you can't live without my science ?

 

 

Clearly life on earth including humans can live without "your science"

it might not be much fun (for us pampered cave dwellers)

but life has flourished  for millions of years without  "your science"

2 minutes ago, johng said:

Who posted this ?

Does it say   you can't live without my science ?

 

 

Clearly life on earth including humans can live without "your science"

it might not be much fun (for us pampered cave dwellers)

but life has flourished  for millions of years without  "your science"

Flourished, is a big word coming to humanity without science. Normal people didn't have clean water, living with pests, viruses and other plagues. Very few lived longer than. 40-50 years. 

 

I'm not sure sone of you understand how it used to be for the average person and below who had no network of importance. 

 

 

18 hours ago, kwilco said:

Science means knowledge, gained through evidence. It's a method — a brutal, unforgiving process of observation, hypothesis, testing, and verification. You know what that means? It means if you're wrong, the data will tell you. And if you ignore the data? You're not “doing your own research” — you’re just being willfully ignorant.

When they stopped divulging the vaccination status of all the people getting sick and hospitalized, “the science” became willfully ignorant.

12 minutes ago, Hummin said:

I'm not sure sone of you understand how it used to be for the average person and below who had no network of importance. 

 

Society has made advances leaps and bounds no doubt about that and everyone is grateful for that (mostly ?)   but that doesn't change the fact that life on earth including human life was doing fine  before "the science" came along..if it could not live without the science how did it live to this day ?   it would have gone extinct long ago.

40 minutes ago, johng said:

 

Society has made advances leaps and bounds no doubt about that and everyone is grateful for that (mostly ?)   but that doesn't change the fact that life on earth including human life was doing fine  before "the science" came along..if it could not live without the science how did it live to this day ?   it would have gone extinct long ago.

There is one thing knowing life now and appreciate life now contrary back then! 
 

To me when people praises old days, I get a little bit annoyed about how little people really know and understand how people lived and died back in those “glorious” days. 
 

And not to forget how lucky we where to be born after two major world wars where it was a great economic boom for the western countries with a lot of hope and positivity. 
 

For now experience a total coop by pessimists and conspiracy smart asses. 

54 minutes ago, Airalee said:

When they stopped divulging the vaccination status of all the people getting sick and hospitalized, “the science” became willfully ignorant.

Where do you have your source? 

1 hour ago, Airalee said:

When they stopped divulging the vaccination status

By "they" you mean the lizard people?

 

Remember Trump was president for the Covid epidemic and one of te first things he did was disband the White House pandemic response team

I’ve compiled this check list to help identify anti-vax conspiracy theorists 
Spot the signs. Think critically. Choose facts, not fear. 
Note first that critical thinking tends to start with a question e.g - “what damage is caused by vaccines?” whereas a conspiracy theorist tends to start with a statement  e.g “All Vaccines Will Kill You” and then looks around for “support” for that statement

 

1. "Do Your Own Research" – but know the difference between “search” and “research”
☐ Are they rejecting every expert source but trusting a random blog, YouTube video, or meme?
☐ Is “research” just Googling until they find something that confirms what they already believe? (Google is not a source, it’s a search engine)
Real research involves peer review, not Reddit threads or "sealioning"!

 

2. Fake Experts, Real Confusion
☐ Are they quoting “doctors” with no relevant qualifications—or long-discredited figures?
☐ Is a chiropractor or lifestyle guru being treated like an immunologist?
 If you wouldn’t trust them to do surgery, maybe don’t trust them on virology.

 

3. Natural = Good, Science = Bad
☐ Is the post full of appeals to nature—like “your immune system is enough” or “chemicals are evil”?
☐ Do they ignore that diseases are natural too?
Smallpox was natural. So were polio and the plague.

 

4. "I'm Just Asking Questions"
☐ Do they avoid making actual claims, but drop ominous-sounding questions like “Why are they pushing this so hard?”
☐ Is it just sowing doubt without offering facts?
“Just asking” can be a shield for misinformation.

 

5. Cherry-Picked Stats & Misleading Charts
☐ Are they using scary-looking graphs or rare adverse cases with no context?
☐ Are large studies and safety data being ignored?
If it sounds dramatic but skips the full picture, it’s probably not science.

 

6. Big Pharma = Evil Mastermind
☐ Is everything blamed on shadowy corporations and bought-out doctors?
☐ Is it assumed that all science is corrupt except the stuff that supports their view?
Pharma isn’t perfect—but neither are essential oils from Instagram influencers.

 

7. Fear-Driven Language
☐ Is the tone emotional, alarmist, and filled with words like “toxic,” “deadly,” or “experimental”?
☐ Does it feel designed to scare first, explain never?
If it’s more horror movie than medical advice, don’t panic—fact-check.

 

Bottom Line:
Anti-vax arguments often sound passionate—but passion isn’t proof.
Believing something doesn’t make it true. Repeating it doesn’t make it safer.
Science isn’t perfect, but it does evolve based on evidence—not fear.

 

Stay curious. Stay skeptical. Skepticality is part of science and critical thinking – but make sure you actually know what critical thinking as and how to do it.

 

This is my favourite introduction to critical thinking 

There are plenty of books, videos and courses that you can find online.

 

And remember: vaccines don’t just protect you—they protect everyone.
 

9 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Are they quoting “doctors” with no relevant qualifications—or long-discredited figures?

 

Answer the Redfield question.

7 hours ago, kwilco said:

By "they" you mean the lizard people?

 

Of course, who else?

45 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

 

Answer the Redfield question.

I think you can check that on the list?