Another win for Trump (breaking news)

[jas007]

18 minutes ago, thesetat said:

I am familiar with it. Zelenski has been doing it for some time now. Including his own people. He uses hope and desperation as his tactics. But nonetheless, his people are beginning to see him for what he is. Stubborn only to continue being fed money to keep his people dying without any real hope to win back what was taken. 

I don't know about the media in Ukraine, but if it's anything like the media in the Western world, it's pretty much all propaganda. Over and over, the people who consume the media are fed the same lies. And eventually, those lies become the "truth."  It's almost humorous. And once people are brainwashed, they're beyond salvation. 

 

Look at the COVID scam. They had most of the world believing that a deadly virus was circulating that could somehow be stopped by flimsy masks and plastic partitions between booths in restaurants.  One-way isles in grocery stores and six feet of distance between people in public spaces. And god help you if you were caught outside enjoying life without a mask and a vaccine passport. And if you didn't wish to partake in their "vaccinations," you were an agent of death, a killer of grandmothers, on the loose. 

 

Fast forward to today, and you're a "fascist" if you don't subscribe to Zelenskyy's fantasies.  And again, people believe the nonsense because that was how they were programmed. 

[Jingthing]

42 minutes ago, thesetat said:

I am familiar with it. Zelenski has been doing it for some time now. Including his own people. He uses hope and desperation as his tactics. But nonetheless, his people are beginning to see him for what he is. Stubborn only to continue being fed money to keep his people dying without any real hope to win back what was taken. 

Disgraceful lies.

[ChicagoExpat]

7 minutes ago, jas007 said:

I don't know about the media in Ukraine, but if it's anything like the media in the Western world, it's pretty much all propaganda. Over and over, the people who consume the media are fed the same lies. And eventually, those lies become the "truth."  It's almost humorous. And once people are brainwashed, they're beyond salvation. 

 

Look at the COVID scam. They had most of the world believing that a deadly virus was circulating that could somehow be stopped by flimsy masks and plastic partitions between booths in restaurants.  One-way isles in grocery stores and six feet of distance between people in public spaces. And god help you if you were caught outside enjoying life without a mask and a vaccine passport. And if you didn't wish to partake in their "vaccinations," you were an agent of death, a killer of grandmothers, on the loose. 

 

Fast forward to today, and you're a "fascist" if you don't subscribe to Zelenskyy's fantasies.  And again, people believe the nonsense because that was how they were programmed. 

And yet, in a discussion about the Russia/Ukraine issue, it's somehow irrelevant that far worse than Western media, far far worse than Ukrainian media, is the Russian media.  In terms of credibility, independence, and integrity.  Propaganda?  World class.  COVID scam?  They had that, and add in the "Sputnik V" injection that they foisted on a captive audience... with no lab testing!  And if you don't subscribe to Putin's fantasies, you're not only a fascist, you're in jail or dead.

 

Just thought I'd add some perspective FOR THE GUYS WHO DEFINITELY DON'T SUPPORT RUSSIA.

[Jingthing]

Putin doesn’t want peace.

He wants all of Ukraine. 

He wants to erase everything about Ukrainian identity including the people that refuse to be Slavic slaves of Russ.

Putin is a genocidal mass murdering war criminal. 

His soldiers are raping thieving and  child stealing and murdering.

To get him to ever negotiate you need to force him.

Of course Ukrainians will continue to fight.

It's their only hope of national survival.

They have no choice.

It's much more about people than land.

Ukraine would be willing to.give up some land for real security guarantees 

None are currently forthcoming.

 

[thesetat]

Zelenski doesn't want peace. He wants more money and weapons and supplies. Next he will be asking foreign forces to join him in keeping the war at a stale mate. Jeez, as soon as the war is over there can be elections and Zelenski will be out in the cold. 

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, thesetat said:

Zelenski doesn't want peace. He wants more money and weapons and supplies. Next he will be asking foreign forces to join him in keeping the war at a stale mate. Jeez, as soon as the war is over there can be elections and Zelenski will be out in the cold. 

Vile lies.

[jas007]

1 hour ago, ChicagoExpat said:

Setting aside the other nonsense in your post, let's focus on this little gem.  The corpses of thousands more dead kids lie at the feet of Russia.  Period.  For all three invasions of Ukraine.

 

Once again, you miss the point.  You're not seeing the big picture.

 

It's not a matter of dead kids lying "at the feet of" Russia, as if the resolution of the issue of fault settles anything. Even if you're right about the fault issue, so what?  No one ever said the world is a fair place. It's not. And in this case, being "right" and continuing a losing battle is simply asking for more grief.  

 

"I'm right and it's all Russia's fault" does not justify killing more kids and endangering the world.  I guess if Zelenskyy wants to take that position and gets away with selling that nonsense to the Ukrainian people, that's what will happen, but why should the USA be involved?  Trump should know better.  

[ChicagoExpat]

16 hours ago, jas007 said:

Once again, you miss the point.  You're not seeing the big picture.

 

It's not a matter of dead kids lying "at the feet of" Russia, as if the resolution of the issue of fault settles anything. Even if you're right about the fault issue, so what?  No one ever said the world is a fair place. It's not. And in this case, being "right" and continuing a losing battle is simply asking for more grief.  

 

"I'm right and it's all Russia's fault" does not justify killing more kids and endangering the world.  I guess if Zelenskyy wants to take that position and gets away with selling that nonsense to the Ukrainian people, that's what will happen, but why should the USA be involved?  Trump should know better.  

I just reject your Putin-love narrative (even though YOU'RE DEFINITELY NOT A RUSSIA SUPPORTER).  You're not right about anything, from your deluded Kremlin take on Zelenskiy to the hopelessness of the situation to the Western MIC driving all this.  Literally every "point" you try to make and every "big picture" you try to paint is a Kremlin lie.

 

Assigning blame is a really important part of settling any conflict and preventing a future conflict.  If a gang of thugs begins to take over your property, and kills your family, and you call for help -- I'm certain you won't be satisfied with your prescription for Ukraine: "let them keep what they took, in the future you can't call for help, and no one is at fault here."

 

A reminder from before:  Feel free to show where I created a boogeyman out of Putin, or argued that he is going to go on to conquer all of Europe, and then the U.S.  And that I'm consciously arguing on behalf of "Anything to sway public opinion and continue the flow of money to the military complex and to those profiting from the corruption."  Because arguing in bad faith and making sh!t up is the norm for SOMEONE WHO IS DEFINITELY NOT A RUSSIA SUPPORTER, but I'll keep pointing it out.

[ChicagoExpat]

16 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Vile lies.

Because you know, it's just absolutely impossible that the President of a country might want to do all he can to prevent the destruction of that same country.  The only explanation for Slavaboos is CoCaInE!  YaChTs!  WESTERN MSM!  WESTERN MIC!  BIIIIIIIIDEN!!!!!!!

 

And literally every single thing they say 1) originates in Kremlin agitprop and 2) is either false or is 1000x worse for the country of their allegiance, Russia.

[ChicagoExpat]

17 hours ago, thesetat said:

Zelenski doesn't want peace. He wants more money and weapons and supplies. Next he will be asking foreign forces to join him in keeping the war at a stale mate. Jeez, as soon as the war is over there can be elections and Zelenski will be out in the cold. 

You're literally painting it as a bad thing that a country's president might ask for "money, weapons, supplies, foreign help" in trying to stave off the destruction of his country at the hands of a brutal, much more powerful invader.  🤣  Do you even realize how dumb that looks?  Your country of allegiance did the same thing when invaded by the 1940s version of themselves.  Was Stalin wrong in asking for help?

Translation:  WHY WON'T UKRAINE SURRENDER?

[jas007]

19 minutes ago, ChicagoExpat said:

You're literally painting it as a bad thing that a country's president might ask for "money, weapons, supplies, foreign help" is trying to stave off the destruction of his country at the hands of a brutal, much more powerful invader.  🤣  Do you even realize how dumb that looks?  Your country of allegiance, Russia, did the same thing when invaded by the 1940s version of themselves.  Was Stalin wrong in asking for help?

Translation:  WHY WON'T UKRAINE SURRENDER?

Let's assume it's only natural for Zelenskyy to ask for help. More money weapons, and supplies. That's totally understandable. Scam money out of whoever you can. That seems to be the game in that part of the world. But,  just because Zelenskyy asks for help doesn't mean the USA should be stupid enough to give it to him. Why waste money on a war that that can't be won?  What's the end game?

 

Let Ukraine deal with Russia however they want.  But the USA and its money and war materials need not be involved. The USA can no longer afford to be the world's policeman.  

[ChicagoExpat]

1 minute ago, jas007 said:

Let's assume it's only natural for Zelenskyy to ask for help. More money weapons, and supplies. That's totally understandable. Scam money out of whoever you can. That seems to be the game in that part of the world. But,  just because Zelenskyy asks for help doesn't mean the USA should be stupid enough to give it to him. Why waste money on a war that that can't be won?  What's the end game?

 

Let Ukraine deal with Russia however they want.  But the USA and its money and war materials need not be involved. The USA can no longer afford to be the world's policeman.  

So let's point out the arguing in bad faith before the ink dries on this one.  You agree that it's natural for a President to try and prevent the destruction of his country at the hands of a brutal, fascist, more powerful invader but then go right to calling that a scam.

 

Always arguing in bad faith.  And a key part of your arguing in bad faith:  YOU'RE DEFINITELY NOT A RUSSIA SUPPORTER.

 

A reminder from before:  Feel free to show where I created a boogeyman out of Putin, or argued that he is going to go on to conquer all of Europe, and then the U.S.  And that I'm consciously arguing on behalf of "Anything to sway public opinion and continue the flow of money to the military complex and to those profiting from the corruption."  Because arguing in bad faith and making sh!t up is the norm for SOMEONE WHO IS DEFINITELY NOT A RUSSIA SUPPORTER, but I'll keep pointing it out.

 

 

[Hakuna Matata]

17 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Putin doesn’t want peace.

He wants all of Ukraine. 

He wants to erase everything about Ukrainian identity including the people that refuse to be Slavic slaves of Russ.

Putin is a genocidal mass murdering war criminal. 

His soldiers are raping thieving and  child stealing and murdering.

To get him to ever negotiate you need to force him.

Of course Ukrainians will continue to fight.

It's their only hope of national survival.

They have no choice.

It's much more about people than land.

Ukraine would be willing to.give up some land for real security guarantees 

None are currently forthcoming.

 

 

TRUMP MUST STOP UKRAINE AID, if he wants PEACE

 

 

[jas007]

3 minutes ago, ChicagoExpat said:

So let's point out the arguing in bad faith before the ink dries on this one.  You agree that it's natural for a President to try and prevent the destruction of his country at the hands of a brutal, fascist, more powerful invader but then go right to calling that a scam.

 

Always arguing in bad faith.  And a key part of your arguing in bad faith:  YOU'RE DEFINITELY NOT A RUSSIA SUPPORTER.

 

A reminder from before:  Feel free to show where I created a boogeyman out of Putin, or argued that he is going to go on to conquer all of Europe, and then the U.S.  And that I'm consciously arguing on behalf of "Anything to sway public opinion and continue the flow of money to the military complex and to those profiting from the corruption."  Because arguing in bad faith and making sh!t up is the norm for SOMEONE WHO IS DEFINITELY NOT A RUSSIA SUPPORTER, but I'll keep pointing it out.

 

 

As for your "reminder from before"?  I explained my position. You either can't read or you simply don't want to understand.  Ii think that's called "denial."  To accept reality would conflict with your belief system. You're in denial.

 

As for arguing in "bad faith"? Where is the bad faith? Why would it be unreasonable for the USA to act in its own best interest?  That's an OK way to proceed for Ukraine, but if the USA acts in a similar fashion, that's not acceptable?  Sounds to me like narcissism. Gaslighting others is a common technique. A typical way of manipulating others to get what you want.  And here, Ukraine wants money, weapons, and material or whatever.   And they want the USA to ignore the fact that half the aid previously furnished was stolen. They want the USA to ignore the fact that Ukraine has already lost the war.  And with Trump's latest move, perhaps Zelenskyy succeed in his scam. Sad, but apparently true, unless Trump has some secret plan.  Apparently, the Neocon warmongers now control Trump.  

 

As I've pointed out more than once.  It's not a matter of being a "Russian supporter."  It's not an either/or proposition. I'm sure in your mind you would like that to be the case, but only because you're in denial and can't see the big picture.  

[ThreeCardMonte]

18 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Putin doesn’t want peace.

He wants all of Ukraine. 

He wants to erase everything about Ukrainian identity including the people that refuse to be Slavic slaves of Russ.

Putin is a genocidal mass murdering war criminal. 

His soldiers are raping thieving and  child stealing and murdering.

To get him to ever negotiate you need to force him.

Of course Ukrainians will continue to fight.

It's their only hope of national survival.

They have no choice.

It's much more about people than land.

Ukraine would be willing to.give up some land for real security guarantees 

None are currently forthcoming.

 

“Putin doesn’t want peace”

 

Did he tell you this during your recent meeting with him?

[ChicagoExpat]

19 minutes ago, jas007 said:

As for your "reminder from before"?  I explained my position. You either can't read or you simply don't want to understand.  Ii think that's called "denial."  To accept reality would conflict with your belief system. You're in denial.

 

As for arguing in "bad faith"? Where is the bad faith? Why would it be unreasonable for the USA to act in its own best interest?  That's an OK way to proceed for Ukraine, but if the USA acts in a similar fashion, that's not acceptable?  Sounds to me like narcissism. Gaslighting others is a common technique. A typical way of manipulating others to get what you want.  And here, Ukraine wants money, weapons, and material or whatever.   And they want the USA to ignore the fact that half the aid previously furnished was stolen. They want the USA to ignore the fact that Ukraine has already lost the war.  And with Trump's latest move, perhaps Zelenskyy succeed in his scam. Sad, but apparently true, unless Trump has some secret plan.  Apparently, the Neocon warmongers now control Trump.  

 

As I've pointed out more than once.  It's not a matter of being a "Russian supporter."  It's not an either/or proposition. I'm sure in your mind you would like that to be the case, but only because you're in denial and can't see the big picture.  

You never explained why you attributed those positions to me that I have never advocated for.  That's arguing in bad faith.  Feel free to just admit you overreached.

 

More evidence of arguing in bad faith?  Accusing me of narcissism, gaslighting, and manipulation.  Sorry you don't like getting called out in a public forum by someone who knows much more about the subject, but the easy solution is to stop trying to defend the indefensible.

 

More arguing in bad faith?  Disguising the position from which you argue -- an extremely common tactic among Western Putin lovers.  Because to be seen as arguing from neutral position -- "just a regular guy calling it as I see it" -- rather than as someone who argues SOLELY from the exact lines Russia and its proxies use -- is an attempt to gain credibility you don't deserve.  So, yes, your dishonesty is completely relevant.

 

OK, let's move on with the claim that "Half the aid was stolen."  Go ahead and back that up -- specifically because you're claiming Zelenskiy stole it (you know how tricky those JOOOOS are...).

[jas007]

6 minutes ago, ChicagoExpat said:

OK, let's move on with the claim that "Half the aid was stolen."  Go ahead and back that up -- specifically because you're claiming Zelenskiy stole it (you know how tricky those JOOOOS are...).

Wasn't it Zelenskyy himself who said that half the aid supposedly furnished by the US was never received? To be sure, there was some question as to where the money went, but if Ukraine didn't receive it, where did it go? Who is lying? 

 

What is Zelenskyy's salary?  And if a full and complete audit were conducted of his bank accounts, how much do you think they would uncover?  What about the accounts of his entourage?  And if the money uncovered wasn't stolen, where did it come from?  The tooth fairy? 

 

As for your other assertions.  I refer you to my earlier posts. Apparently, you have a reading comprehension problem and you don't even understand why you think the way you do. 

[Jingthing]

54 minutes ago, Hakuna Matata said:

 

TRUMP MUST STOP UKRAINE AID, if he wants PEACE

 

 

Ridiculous. 

[SMIAI]

 

 

KRISTEN WELKER:

So you think you’re close to a deal? What will Russia have to give up? Because Ukraine, there’s been discussions they will have to give up some of the land that Russia’s illegally claimed. 

PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Russia will have to give up all of Ukraine. Because that’s what they want. 

KRISTEN WELKER:

All of Ukraine? Meaning they wouldn’t keep any of the land that they have claimed? 

PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

No, no. Russia would have to give up all of Ukraine. Because what Russia wants is all of Ukraine. And if I didn’t get involved, they would be fighting right now for all of Ukraine. Russia doesn’t want the strip that they have now; Russia wants all of Ukraine. And if it weren’t me, they would keep going. Do you know that the European Union leaders have asked me to call Putin so many times? Because he doesn’t return their phone call. 

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/trump-administration/read-full-transcript-president-donald-trump-interviewed-meet-press-mod-rcna203514

[jas007]

5 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Ridiculous. 

And why is it ridiculous?  Because it doesn't comport with the narrative you want to be true?  

 

You should probably spend some time listening to seasoned military people, people with years of foreign policy experience, and to former CIA analysts. You might learn a thing or two.  

 

The war is a mess and there's no easy fix, at least for the USA. Of course, if the only objective is to enrich the military complex and the corrupt people who profit from more war, then by all means, let's have more war.  It's all a great game except for the thousands of kids will be killed for no good reason. 

[ChicagoExpat]

5 minutes ago, jas007 said:

Wasn't it Zelenskyy himself who said that half the aid supposedly furnished by the US was never received? To be sure, there was some question as to where the money went, but if Ukraine didn't receive it, where did it go? Who is lying? 

 

What is Zelenskyy's salary?  And if a full and complete audit were conducted of his bank accounts, how much do you think they would uncover?  What about the accounts of his entourage?  And if the money uncovered wasn't stolen, where did it come from?  The tooth fairy? 

 

As for your other assertions.  I refer you to my earlier posts. Apparently, you have a reading comprehension problem and you don't even understand why you think the way you do. 

A Putin lover, who, while arguing on behalf of Putin's invasion, once told me I have a reading comprehension problem, so maybe you can help me out because, you know, I'm just so illiterate:  To be clear, your position is that Zelenskiy himself stole $100 billion dollars which no one noticed until he himself pointed out his own theft?

That's your point?

[jas007]

1 minute ago, ChicagoExpat said:

A Putin lover, who, while arguing on behalf of Putin's invasion, once told me I have a reading comprehension problem, so maybe you can help me out because, you know, I'm just so illiterate:  To be clear, your position is that Zelenskiy himself stole $100 billion dollars which no one noticed until he himself pointed out his own theft?

That's your point?

Did I say Zelenskyy stole $100 billion dollars?  No, I did not.  But I'm pretty sure he doesn't have clean hands.  I'm pretty sure he's not just a good investor, and I'm pretty sure neither are members of his entourage.  But we should just ignore that and allow the grift to continue?  

 

My point was that certain people want a state of continual war for one reason and one reason only:  to make money.  Zelenskyy included. Do you understand that much?  The system needs more and more money. And one way they get that money is through the war machine.  And US taxpayers and the poor people of the world foot the bill.  It's called inflation.  

 

It's a matter of economics as much as anything.  I didn't dream it up.  I'm just an observer trying to stay out of the way of the ensuing mess. 

 

Trump was elected, in part, based on a promise to end the war.  And yet that's not in the cards, apparently.  A bad move on his part, but that's the reality. 

[jas007]

2 hours ago, ChicagoExpat said:

A Putin lover, who, while arguing on behalf of Putin's invasion, once told me I have a reading comprehension problem, so maybe you can help me out because, you know, I'm just so illiterate:  To be clear, your position is that Zelenskiy himself stole $100 billion dollars which no one noticed until he himself pointed out his own theft?

That's your point?

One more thing, although it should go without saying. 

 

In your mind and with your mindset, there are only two kinds of people. "Putin lovers" or people who think Ukraine should continue to have Carte Blanche to fund a war that a rational observe might conclude would be an exercise in futility. 

 

Am I correct?  Two kinds of people with no room for an alternate reality?

 

And yet calling someone a "Putin lover" or a "Russian supporter" is no way to win an argument, without more.  

 

And for what it's worth, I don't know Putin.  I don't even know any Russians, other than the ones I see around my condo complex who to me seem to be regular people. Like you and me. And I'm sure that, among Russians, even they cannot agree about the war.  But, like it or not, the war is happening.  What's the answer?  

 

And for what it's worth, I know people from Ukraine.  One of my great great aunts was from Ukraine. My father had a friend whose wife was from Ukraine.  She was nice.  

 

So, in my mind, two groups of nice people. Russians and Ukrainians. And whatever is going on between those people, it's nothing new. It's been going on for hundreds of years. Drawing some lines on a map to form a new nation state and thinking that should end all discussion about the war is delusional. The Neocons would like everyone to believe that, I'm sure. Ditto for the warmongers.   

 

So far, it's an argument that is losing badly.  

[candide]

4 hours ago, jas007 said:

Wasn't it Zelenskyy himself who said that half the aid supposedly furnished by the US was never received? To be sure, there was some question as to where the money went, but if Ukraine didn't receive it, where did it go? Who is lying? 

 

What is Zelenskyy's salary?  And if a full and complete audit were conducted of his bank accounts, how much do you think they would uncover?  What about the accounts of his entourage?  And if the money uncovered wasn't stolen, where did it come from?  The tooth fairy? 

 

As for your other assertions.  I refer you to my earlier posts. Apparently, you have a reading comprehension problem and you don't even understand why you think the way you do. 

Quote from your post:

"Wasn't it Zelenskyy himself who said that half the aid supposedly furnished by the US was never received? To be sure, there was some question as to where the money went, but if Ukraine didn't receive it, where did it go? Who is lying?"

 

It seems you are reproducing baseless MAGA propaganda. Zelinski did not claim that $100 billion vanished. Just that Ukraine actually did not receive it.

 

The premise of your whole reasoning is flawed.

 

Several reasons for not receiving, in particular:

- 60% of the money was spent in the U.S, and not only on weapons, also on training, logistics  services etc...

- not all what had been pleged had been actually sent at that time. There had been frequently long delays between decisions and deliveries.

 

Here's the conclusion of a detailed analysis made by the CSIS:

 

"Regardless of how Zelensky did the math, the bottom line is the same: no money is missing. Also important is that most of the money is not delivered directly to Ukraine but handled by trusted agencies, mostly the U.S. military, the Department of State/USAID, and the World Bank. The image of pallets of cash being sent to Ukraine is inaccurate. This doesn't say whether the United States should or should not provide more aid, but it does provide better information for making that decision."

https://www.csis.org/analysis/where-missing-100-billion-us-aid-ukraine

 

[jas007]

14 minutes ago, candide said:

Quote from your post:

"Wasn't it Zelenskyy himself who said that half the aid supposedly furnished by the US was never received? To be sure, there was some question as to where the money went, but if Ukraine didn't receive it, where did it go? Who is lying?"

 

It seems you are reproducing baseless MAGA propaganda. Zelinski did not claim that $100 billion vanished. Just that Ukraine actually did not receive it.

 

The premise of your whole reasoning is flawed.

 

Several reasons for not receiving, in particular:

- 60% of the money was spent in the U.S, and not only on weapons, also on training, logistics  services etc...

- not all what had been pleged had been actually sent at that time. There had been frequently long delays between decisions and deliveries.

 

Here's the conclusion of a detailed analysis made by the CSIS:

 

"Regardless of how Zelensky did the math, the bottom line is the same: no money is missing. Also important is that most of the money is not delivered directly to Ukraine but handled by trusted agencies, mostly the U.S. military, the Department of State/USAID, and the World Bank. The image of pallets of cash being sent to Ukraine is inaccurate. This doesn't say whether the United States should or should not provide more aid, but it does provide better information for making that decision."

https://www.csis.org/analysis/where-missing-100-billion-us-aid-ukraine

 

You're twisting my words.  

 

I did not say that 100 billion dollars vanished. You said that.  I said that it was Zelenskyy himself who said that half the aid was never received. There's a difference. I'm not the one with the flawed premise. 

 

And yes, there are various explanations.  

 

In any event, the entire discussion occurred within the larger context of a discussion about corruption and fraud on the part of some Ukrainians, including Zelenskyy and his buddies.  

 

Is it your contention that no grifting occurred? 

 

 

[candide]

6 hours ago, jas007 said:

As for your "reminder from before"?  I explained my position. You either can't read or you simply don't want to understand.  Ii think that's called "denial."  To accept reality would conflict with your belief system. You're in denial.

 

As for arguing in "bad faith"? Where is the bad faith? Why would it be unreasonable for the USA to act in its own best interest?  That's an OK way to proceed for Ukraine, but if the USA acts in a similar fashion, that's not acceptable?  Sounds to me like narcissism. Gaslighting others is a common technique. A typical way of manipulating others to get what you want.  And here, Ukraine wants money, weapons, and material or whatever.   And they want the USA to ignore the fact that half the aid previously furnished was stolen. They want the USA to ignore the fact that Ukraine has already lost the war.  And with Trump's latest move, perhaps Zelenskyy succeed in his scam. Sad, but apparently true, unless Trump has some secret plan.  Apparently, the Neocon warmongers now control Trump.  

 

As I've pointed out more than once.  It's not a matter of being a "Russian supporter."  It's not an either/or proposition. I'm sure in your mind you would like that to be the case, but only because you're in denial and can't see the big picture.  

 

3 minutes ago, jas007 said:

You're twisting my words.  

 

I did not say that 100 billion dollars vanished. You said that.  I said that it was Zelenskyy himself who said that half the aid was never received. There's a difference. I'm not the one with the flawed premise. 

 

And yes, there are various explanations.  

 

In any event, the entire discussion occurred within the larger context of a discussion about corruption and fraud on the part of some Ukrainians, including Zelenskyy and his buddies.  

 

Is it your contention that no grifting occurred? 

 

 

I quoted your own words. You repeatedly used Zelinski's statement as a justification for alleging massive corruption, and even corruption by Zelinski himself.

 

Another quote from a previous post (fully quoted above to allow checking the context), in which you claimed the aid was stolen.

 

"And they want the USA to ignore the fact that half the aid previously furnished was stolen. They want the USA to ignore the fact that Ukraine has already lost the war.  And with Trump's latest move, perhaps Zelenskyy succeed in his scam."

[jas007]

53 minutes ago, candide said:

 

I quoted your own words. You repeatedly used Zelinski's statement as a justification for alleging massive corruption, and even corruption by Zelinski himself.

 

Another quote from a previous post (fully quoted above to allow checking the context), in which you claimed the aid was stolen.

 

"And they want the USA to ignore the fact that half the aid previously furnished was stolen. They want the USA to ignore the fact that Ukraine has already lost the war.  And with Trump's latest move, perhaps Zelenskyy succeed in his scam."

There was massive corruption. \What would you call hundreds of millions of dollars, missing?  Pocket change?  Where I come from, if I stole $1000, the police would be knocking at my door.  

 

And I admit, your quote is accurate.  But in the grand scheme of things, it was just hyperbole.  

 

Something is rotten, somewhere. Or do you disagree?  

[candide]

19 minutes ago, jas007 said:

There was massive corruption. \What would you call hundreds of millions of dollars, missing?  Pocket change?  Where I come from, if I stole $1000, the police would be knocking at my door.  

 

And I admit, your quote is accurate.  But in the grand scheme of things, it was just hyperbole.  

 

Something is rotten, somewhere. Or do you disagree?  

More baseless claims from you! Where is your evidence that hundreds of millions of dollars missing? You have nothing!

[thesetat]

3 minutes ago, candide said:

More baseless claims from you! Where is your evidence that hundreds of millions of dollars missing? You have nothing!

And you have nothing to prove it did not go missing. So why argue about it just because you disagree? 

[ThreeCardMonte]

4 minutes ago, candide said:

More baseless claims from you! Where is your evidence that hundreds of millions of dollars missing? You have nothing!

“You have nothing!”

 

Hey, I thought you kept that phrase exclusively for me.