Trump refuses to accept that for Netanyahu and Putin forever war is the only option

[bannork]

 

Netanyahu and his far-right cronies deny Palestinians the right to an independent state – the exact same right asserted by Israel’s founders. Likewise, Putin rejects the reality of Ukraine as a sovereign country; both project messianic, expansionist visions – of a “greater Israel” and a revived Soviet imperium.

And would-be peacemakers, especially the US president, Donald Trump, fail to grasp another visceral similarity: neither actually wants lasting peace.

 Forever war is their preferred option, their default setting, they depend for their survival on violence.

Trump refuses to accept that for Netanyahu and Putin forever war is the only option

 

[Nick Carter icp]

16 minutes ago, bannork said:

Netanyahu and his far-right cronies deny Palestinians the right to an independent state – the exact same right asserted by Israel’s founders.

 

   You  really should stop posting those lies .

You should post the reality and facts ,

You know by now what the truth is 

[stevenl]

Totally agree with this part of your link.

 

"Trump should stop grandstanding and delegate Gaza and Ukraine peacemaking to experienced US career diplomats, UN envoys, Arab and European mediators, intelligence chiefs and military experts. In short, he should leave it to people who know what they’re doing. As for Netanyahu and Putin, he should wash his hands of both."

[Bkk Brian]

32 minutes ago, bannork said:

 

Netanyahu and his far-right cronies deny Palestinians the right to an independent state – the exact same right asserted by Israel’s founders. Likewise, Putin rejects the reality of Ukraine as a sovereign country; both project messianic, expansionist visions – of a “greater Israel” and a revived Soviet imperium.

And would-be peacemakers, especially the US president, Donald Trump, fail to grasp another visceral similarity: neither actually wants lasting peace.

 Forever war is their preferred option, their default setting, they depend for their survival on violence.

Trump refuses to accept that for Netanyahu and Putin forever war is the only option

 

Wow, more misinformation. This is an inflammatory opinion piece only from the Guardian and you have deliberately spun the quotes in a different order. How dishonest.

[impulse]

17 minutes ago, stevenl said:

"Trump should stop grandstanding and delegate Gaza and Ukraine peacemaking to experienced US career diplomats, UN envoys, Arab and European mediators, intelligence chiefs and military experts. In short, he should leave it to people who know what they’re doing.

 

Yeah.  Because they've been doing such a good job...

[connda]

Trump refuses to accept that for Netanyahu and Putin forever war is the only option

 

For the United States, regardless of who is in office, Forever War is the only option.  The MIC must be paid in order to keep the campaign funds flowing and the insider trading tips rolling making Congress-critters and Senators millionaires on a Congressional salary.

There are no revenues or profits in peace.  Peace on earth may never be allowed to happen.  It's bad for business.  Therefore the United States must have Forever Enemies.  Those now include in no particular order:

China
Russia
Iran

DPRK
Yeman
Lebanon
Venezuela
Cuba
Nicaragua
Panama
Myanmar
Greenland
Syria Overthrown
Libya Overthrown
Iraq Overthrown

Afghanistan
All countries aligned with BRICS
All crappy little countries who don't do what Uncle Sam tell them to do
Any countries trading with any of the above
 

[MicroB]

To be fair, if not for the crisis that Israel is in right now, the ongoing bribery-fraud trials that the Israeli PM is facing, might be proceeding at pace (in the latest, the Prosecution has rested). As in Westminster, Israeli political parties do change leaders. The crisis, on one level, has proven convenient for his own political survival, because it was previously decidely shaky (Israeli governments are mostly delicate coalitions of a sort Americans won't really understand).

 

I think there is no doubt that Putin is a thief, and that his war is making a few of his mates very very rich. If it ended tomorrow, there would be problems for him, as what has he achieved?

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, MicroB said:

To be fair, if not for the crisis that Israel is in right now, the ongoing bribery-fraud trials that the Israeli PM is facing, might be proceeding at pace (in the latest, the Prosecution has rested). As in Westminster, Israeli political parties do change leaders. The crisis, on one level, has proven convenient for his own political survival, because it was previously decidely shaky (Israeli governments are mostly delicate coalitions of a sort Americans won't really understand).

 

I think there is no doubt that Putin is a thief, and that his war is making a few of his mates very very rich. If it ended tomorrow, there would be problems for him, as what has he achieved?

Yes be fair, why is Israel in a crisis?

[SunnyinBangrak]

35 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Totally agree with this part of your link.

 

"Trump should stop grandstanding and delegate Gaza and Ukraine peacemaking to experienced US career diplomats, UN envoys, Arab and European mediators, intelligence chiefs and military experts. In short, he should leave it to people who know what they’re doing. As for Netanyahu and Putin, he should wash his hands of both."

Yeah right, that worked out great since Putin re-invaded under the senile Biden and his cabinet of woke chancers, didn't it. Please more deep state and useless beaurocrats, said nobody, ever.

[Nick Carter icp]

1 hour ago, bannork said:

Netanyahu and his far-right cronies deny Palestinians the right to an independent state – the exact same right asserted by Israel’s founders. Likewise, Putin rejects the reality of Ukraine as a sovereign country;

 

   An attempt to re write history and put Israel and Russia into the same category , trying to put them in the same category as invaders of other lands . 

   That isn't the reality . 

Russia invaded Ukraine which caused the war 

Palestine invaded Israel which caused the war . 

Palestine and Russia are both the invading Countries* .

Israel are just doing a better job at fighting the invaders, doing a better job than Ukraine is .

   Palestine and Russia were the aggressors 

 

   * No need to point it out 

[Furioso]

As far as Putin isn't the U.S happy the Russians are depleting their military in Ukraine? 

[MicroB]

1 hour ago, Nick Carter icp said:

Palestine invaded Israel which caused the war . 

Palestine and Russia are both the invading Countries*

 

Technically incorrect on two points.

 

The Hamas action was an incursion not an invasion. Invasion involves seizing of territory. All accounts suggested Hamas terrorists went in to cause mayhem, and then left as fast as possible with hostages. There is no evidence that the IDF successfully caused them to withdraw.

 

Russia, rather than Russians, invaded Ukraine, at the direction of their government. It was an official act.

 

The terrorists who went into Israel were certainly acting on the direction of their political leadership, Hamas. Hamas is a political organisation that governs Gaza, but it does not govern Palestine. It has de facto control of the Gaza Strip. The Palestine National Authority is the body that is recognised as the legitimate sovereign power. There is no evidence that the PNA conspired with Hamas, so present your evidence.

 

Ukraine is doing a valiant effort effort resisting a nuclear armed enemy, and is out numbered by 3 to 1. Israel enjoys a numerical advantage of 5 to 1 over the population of Gaza. Its been making a meal of it, largely through tactical incompetance, with enormous wastage of munitions, largely driven by a fear of casualties on its own side. More tonnage of bombs has been dropped on Gaza than Berlin during the whole of WW2., suggesting the IDF is either not very adept at using the weapons systems gifted to them, or their intelligence gathering is poor. I see this the result of the politicization of the IDF, compared to previous years, which is also why they were so blindsided by the Hamas attacks, a sort of thing that would never have happened in the past.

 

This is an issue that is in discussion in Israel

 

https://en.idi.org.il/articles/58356https://en.idi.org.il/articles/58356

https://www.inss.org.il/publication/idf-politics/

 

 

Its generally regarded that the appointment of Major General Eyal Zamir as head of the IDF at the insistance of the Mafdal–RZ Party is an intensely political and ideological decision.

[MicroB]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

Yes be fair, why is Israel in a crisis?

 

1948 I guess. The Crisis didn't start in October 2023; things weren't all rose they day before. Some in the Israeli political scene have accused Netanyahu of facilitating the rise of Hamas.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

 

Netanyahu had previously indicated opposition to withdrawal from the Gaza settlements.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/aug/08/israel

 

As Prime Minister, he elevated recognition of Hamas, an organisation he had warned about, as some sort of counterweight to the West Bank government. He disregarded attacks on Israeli settlements in the south, I suspect because they weren't the people who'd vote for him anyhow. Cynicism or appalling judgement lead him to this point.

 

Lord Carrington offered his resignation in the wake of the Falklands invasion. Netanyahu should have done the same. He's not a naive man.

 

[Nick Carter icp]

4 minutes ago, MicroB said:

 

Technically incorrect on two points.

 

The Hamas action was an incursion not an invasion. Invasion involves seizing of territory. All accounts suggested Hamas terrorists went in to cause mayhem, and then left as fast as possible with hostages. There is no evidence that the IDF successfully caused them to withdraw.

 

 

   It was indeed an invasion . 

Palestine seized some territory and they headed towards the West Bank where they would meet with fellow Palestinians , it was shown on the day how they progressed across Israel and they only stopped then they got killed .

   Hamas could have gone straight back into Gaza with the hostages  , but they continued their invasion across Israel . 

   They could have taken the 250 festival goers back into Gaza as hostages and been back by breakfast .

  Even the Palestine terrorists stated they intended to stay and live in the houses and land they invaded 

[Bkk Brian]

42 minutes ago, MicroB said:

 

1948 I guess. The Crisis didn't start in October 2023; things weren't all rose they day before. Some in the Israeli political scene have accused Netanyahu of facilitating the rise of Hamas.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

 

Netanyahu had previously indicated opposition to withdrawal from the Gaza settlements.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/aug/08/israel

 

As Prime Minister, he elevated recognition of Hamas, an organisation he had warned about, as some sort of counterweight to the West Bank government. He disregarded attacks on Israeli settlements in the south, I suspect because they weren't the people who'd vote for him anyhow. Cynicism or appalling judgement lead him to this point.

 

Lord Carrington offered his resignation in the wake of the Falklands invasion. Netanyahu should have done the same. He's not a naive man.

 

What a lot of nonsense, the reason Israel is in crisis is because of the invasion on Oct 7th of over 6,000 Gazans which included Hamas and other terrorist groups along with a couple of thousand Gazan civilians. That is when the war started after the largest slaughter of Jews since the holocaust, torturing, massacring, raping women men and children. There is no justification for such barbaric acts. Only apologists try that lame card.

 

New Documents Show Hamas Plotted October 7 Attack to Derail Israel-Saudi Peace Talks

 

The rest of your post is out of context and been discussed numerous times in other topics. However noted you clutch at straws to bring it up as an excuse.

 

So back to the crisis you stated, there would be no crisis and no war if the terrorists released the hostages and lay down their killing machines.

[Nick Carter icp]

3 minutes ago, MicroB said:

 

1948 I guess. The Crisis didn't start in October 2023; things weren't all rose they day before. Some in the Israeli political scene have accused Netanyahu of facilitating the rise of Hamas.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

 

 

 

 

  We all know , it really doesn't need to be stated once again .

We all know that the current war started on Oct 7 th and that there was conflict before this current war .

   Also, the link to the news story you provided is 20 months old and it was discussed at the time .

   Old Threads can be refreshed if you want to continue the discussion there ?

[candide]

1 hour ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   It was indeed an invasion . 

Palestine seized some territory and they headed towards the West Bank where they would meet with fellow Palestinians , it was shown on the day how they progressed across Israel and they only stopped then they got killed .

   Hamas could have gone straight back into Gaza with the hostages  , but they continued their invasion across Israel . 

   They could have taken the 250 festival goers back into Gaza as hostages and been back by breakfast .

  Even the Palestine terrorists stated they intended to stay and live in the houses and land they invaded 

Still supporting the fallacy that Hamas is Palestine....

[Nick Carter icp]

5 minutes ago, candide said:

Still supporting the fallacy that Hamas is Palestine....

 

 Hamas are the elected Government of the Palestinian people in Gaza and the attack on Israel was done in the name of the Palestine cause 

[Nick Carter icp]

1 hour ago, MicroB said:

 

As Prime Minister, he elevated recognition of Hamas, an organisation he had warned about, as some sort of counterweight to the West Bank government. He disregarded attacks on Israeli settlements in the south, I suspect because they weren't the people who'd vote for him anyhow. Cynicism or appalling judgement lead him to this point.

 

 

 

   Mirrors the current situation 

Palestine supporters are suggesting that Israel negotiates with a group other than Hamas for a peaceful solution .

  Israel work together with other Palestine factions for peace .

And in ten years time when those peaceful factions attack Israel.......................they will again blame Netanyahu for engaging with those factions  

[candide]

41 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

 Hamas are the elected Government of the Palestinian people in Gaza and the attack on Israel was done in the name of the Palestine cause 

You can post it as often as you want, it will not make it true. Palestine is not even a State, and the Palestinian Authority, which is the closest to it, is controlled by Fatah. Fatah has been (often violently) opposed to Hamas for decades, as you perfectly know. Even Israeli are not claiming that Hamas is Palestine. 🤣

[Mike_Hunt]

29 minutes ago, candide said:

Still supporting the fallacy that Hamas is Palestine....

Yea they are, the people of Gaza voted for HAMAS. 

[Yellowtail]

2 minutes ago, Mike_Hunt said:

Yea they are, the people of Gaza voted for HAMAS. 

And continue to support them by a wide margin. 

[candide]

19 minutes ago, Mike_Hunt said:

Yea they are, the people of Gaza voted for HAMAS. 

Gaza is not the whole of Palestine and is Hamas not the Palestinian Authority. 🤣

[Bkk Brian]

11 minutes ago, candide said:

Gaza is not the whole of Palestine and is Hamas not the Palestinian Authority. 🤣

Why was the PA paying Hamas terrorists "pay for slay" on a very generous monthly stipend?

[candide]

14 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Why was the PA paying Hamas terrorists "pay for slay" on a very generous monthly stipend?

Are you sure it was paying Hamas members?

[Nick Carter icp]

56 minutes ago, candide said:

You can post it as often as you want, it will not make it true. Palestine is not even a State, and the Palestinian Authority, which is the closest to it, is controlled by Fatah. Fatah has been (often violently) opposed to Hamas for decades, as you perfectly know. Even Israeli are not claiming that Hamas is Palestine. 🤣

 

   Palestine declared statehood in 1988 .

The P.A are in control of Judea/West bank .

Hamas are in control of Gaza .

Hamas the elected leadership of Palestians s in Gaza carried out the invasion of Israel in 2023 .

   Hamas are the Government of Gaza and that same Hamas Government invaded Israeli in 2023

[Bkk Brian]

17 minutes ago, candide said:

Are you sure it was paying Hamas members?

Yes. 

 

The money is paid out in the PA-run West Bank as well as Hamas-run Gaza, often with a lag. Before the Oct. 7 terrorists can be rewarded, their families must submit paperwork for proof of martyrdom and power of attorney to open a bank account. But unless something changes, a salary will be sent to reward the family of the terrorist who was recorded calling home on Oct. 7 to tell his mother, “I killed 10 Jews with my own hands!”

 

https://www.wsj.com/opinion/palestinian-authority-hamas-terrorists-payments-israel-gaza-oct-7-898c5a4b

[candide]

1 hour ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Palestine declared statehood in 1988 .

The P.A are in control of Judea/West bank .

Hamas are in control of Gaza .

Hamas the elected leadership of Palestians s in Gaza carried out the invasion of Israel in 2023 .

   Hamas are the Government of Gaza and that same Hamas Government invaded Israeli in 2023

We agree then. It's Hamas, not the Palestinian authority representing Palestine, which invaded Israel and committed this infamous crime.

 

[Nick Carter icp]

4 minutes ago, candide said:

We agree then. It's Hamas, not the Palestinian authority representing Palestine, which invaded Israel and committed this infamous crime.

 

 

  I have never claimed that it was the Palestinian Authority (P.A)  that invaded Israel , it was Hamas who are the Palestine Government in Gaza

[candide]

10 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  I have never claimed that it was the Palestinian Authority (P.A)  that invaded Israel , it was Hamas who are the Palestine Government in Gaza

You claimed that "Palestine" invaded Israel. That was obviously and willingly inaccurate.