Kindness And Generosity In Thailand

[girlx]

you know, i think i have a magnet that attracts bad people. i dunno, maybe i was a nazi in my past life or something and this is my karma. i just went out to eat and was walking home in the rain, it's dark already, and some thai guy in a yellow slicker yelled "hello" at me from his motorbike. i completely ignored him and kept walking. somehow he managed to get himself into the next dark alley i walked past on the way back to my hotel. he had his dick out and was moaning at me! i ignored him again, kept walking, he must have raced to the next dark soi, and it happened again! i yelled "bai! mai ao!" at him and he seemed a bit sheepish but was still frantically going at himself. i got to my hotel before the next dark soi. i was gonna go out and have a drink tonight somewhere but i decided to stay in and work instead. but tell me- how often does this happen in thailand? i know the answer already- rarely! <deleted>?

[meemiathai]

i have seen that place- why, how is she?

It's mostly an honest recommendation for the food, which is great. But she does put the fear of God into her staff. Especially when things go (slighly) wrong.

As an experiment, claim that you didn't get served something you ordered that you actually didn't order from their staff. Then sit back and enjoy.

Are you saying that the farang lady will give her thai staff a hard time when things go just slightly wrong. No way, that can't happen in thailand. The thais will gather up and give any farang a hard time. In thailand only farangs are being bullied!

[chinthee]

Girlx, Heyzous christo. <deleted>?? Where do you get this stuff? Are you going to be the new MTW?

[November Rain]

The threads of yours I've read over the past few months have been hostile towards the Thais of your acquaintance. cdnvic might be right that this is a recent phenomenon - I don't know. Is it remotely possible that the hostility you convey here, could be seen or sensed by them? If so, it doesn't matter how many nice things you do for them, they'll know it's not heartfelt & will treat you accordingly. Maybe my burnout theory would apply to you, too?

What is the problem with being hostile toward thais? Girlx is just reporting some direct experiences. If thais, thai culture, thai scams or whatever make girlx feel hostile then her experience is welcome to me .... post away.

I WISH PEOPLE WOULD STOP TRYING TO SUGAR COAT LIFE IN THAILAND. It is what it is. Most of the sods with the rose colored glasses are the ones being taken the most but are too dumb to know.

I'm sorry, JimmyCA, are you accusing me of being a sodomite? I would have thought that was physically impossible, but whatever

Do you know, the point you made is the same one girlx made? It is so sweet of both of you to be so worried about my welfare & whether I'm being taken for a ride. Thank you both so much. But, really, neither of you need to worry. I'm not being taken. I know this, because I don't actually give anything financial (other than wages earned, of course). And it is very caring of you both to worry about the fact that my obviously depleted intelligence & lack of street smarts are being taken advantage of by these master manipulators. Who knew there were such kind, caring people around? I just can't get over your mutual concern

[meemiathai]

The threads of yours I've read over the past few months have been hostile towards the Thais of your acquaintance. cdnvic might be right that this is a recent phenomenon - I don't know. Is it remotely possible that the hostility you convey here, could be seen or sensed by them? If so, it doesn't matter how many nice things you do for them, they'll know it's not heartfelt & will treat you accordingly. Maybe my burnout theory would apply to you, too?

What is the problem with being hostile toward thais? Girlx is just reporting some direct experiences. If thais, thai culture, thai scams or whatever make girlx feel hostile then her experience is welcome to me .... post away.

I WISH PEOPLE WOULD STOP TRYING TO SUGAR COAT LIFE IN THAILAND. It is what it is. Most of the sods with the rose colored glasses are the ones being taken the most but are too dumb to know.

I wish myself being dumb forever.

[girlx]

er- you obviously think everything i say is directed at you november rain but not so... i was referring to people in my village.

[meemiathai]

er- you obviously think everything i say is directed at you november rain but not so... i was referring to people in my village.

NR is like that sometimes. Mai ben'rai na!

[qwertz]

you know, i think i have a magnet that attracts bad people. i dunno, maybe i was a nazi in my past life or something and this is my karma. i just went out to eat and was walking home in the rain, it's dark already, and some thai guy in a yellow slicker yelled "hello" at me from his motorbike. i completely ignored him and kept walking. somehow he managed to get himself into the next dark alley i walked past on the way back to my hotel. he had his dick out and was moaning at me! i ignored him again, kept walking, he must have raced to the next dark soi, and it happened again! i yelled "bai! mai ao!" at him and he seemed a bit sheepish but was still frantically going at himself. i got to my hotel before the next dark soi. i was gonna go out and have a drink tonight somewhere but i decided to stay in and work instead. but tell me- how often does this happen in thailand? i know the answer already- rarely! <deleted>?

Girlx, this is a little similar to my experience in Phuket.

In my case it was the gangs of katoeys that hang in dark side streets and pounce on men late at night.

As I'm probably not as attractive as you, it's clear to me that they were out to fleece me.

Since then I always take a taxi or make sure I'm not alone.

Those types are really spooky and very aggressive; strange that the police patrols don't chase them off.

[thedi]

... being in that "inner circle", i am treated well ...

girlx, I think you have a valid point here: in Thailand you have to belong to the 'inner circle'. Other people just do not count so much.

To live in Thailand happily, you should belong to a 'family' and most of your contacts will be in this family. If you live in a small village, this family will be at least half of the village. In a town the 'family' may be a business.

If you are not connected to an established (Thai) group, your contacts may be restricted to others without a family: farangs, Thai newcomers, misfits or profiteers.

This has nothing to do with racism, but is part of the Asian social system: it is hierarchical and more group-oriented than in the west. Whenever there is a conflict of interests, Thais tend to take the side of the one who is closer to them, while westners value 'who is right and what is fair' higher (when you look closer at this, it may be rather "who's opinion agrees more with mine", very similar to "belongs to my group", isn't it?).

If you like Thailand, you have to accept this side of the coin too. Either you can live with it - or Asisa may not be the best place for you to live in happily.

Each coin has two sides. If you could change a side of the Thai society which you do not like, you would also change the other side, which you liked before...

... but if i am on my own, no matter how friendly i am there is always that feeling that i am not contributing enough to them.

You should not try to contribute more, but to become part of their group or 'inner circle' (if you want to be treated as a member of the inner circle). This needs time, engagement and most of all sympathy - not contributions.

Best wishes and regards to you girlx, from one 'the sods, too dumb to ever know' - as JimmyCA would say

Edited August 17, 2007 by thedi

[onzestan]

girlx, I think you're trying to hard.

Buying friendships doesn't work be it with money or over the top friendliness.

You're in a negative spiral now. Better distance yourself from all these negativity for a while, and try to regain your selfrespect.

That's where it all starts. Predators feel when there's a victim at hand.

goodluck

onzestan

[canadiangirl]

you know, i think i have a magnet that attracts bad people. i dunno, maybe i was a nazi in my past life or something and this is my karma. i just went out to eat and was walking home in the rain, it's dark already, and some thai guy in a yellow slicker yelled "hello" at me from his motorbike. i completely ignored him and kept walking. somehow he managed to get himself into the next dark alley i walked past on the way back to my hotel. he had his dick out and was moaning at me! i ignored him again, kept walking, he must have raced to the next dark soi, and it happened again! i yelled "bai! mai ao!" at him and he seemed a bit sheepish but was still frantically going at himself. i got to my hotel before the next dark soi. i was gonna go out and have a drink tonight somewhere but i decided to stay in and work instead. but tell me- how often does this happen in thailand? i know the answer already- rarely! <deleted>?

Maybe you're just having a rough time, girlx. It seems sometimes that it's "when it rains it pours" with that sort of thing.

I don't really agree with the people saying "oh, maybe you're bringing this on yourself by having a crap attitude" but I think that sometimes we do give out a vibe that seems to make things better or worse. Do you think you might just be really burnt out on KPG? Do you have the option of leaving for awhile, maybe visiting home or something?

[girlx]

i have already left, i am in chiang mai for a couple of weeks, and i am going home to NY and on to south america in october (anyone else headed that way?). but i don't think i am really too burned out on the place... i think the realities of this culture are just finally becoming apparent to me. a bit of the ol' culture shock. don't think thais are bad people, but the way they think is often diametrically opposed to the way i think, and it can be hard to adjust to living here!

[kat]

well, I think it's good you're gone, and will be able to leave the country for awhile. You need a rest. I know exactly how you feel, and I am no way suggesting this is all in your mind or your fault. It is hard to be a single foreign woman in Thailand, and I agree, there are different levels of understanding, comprehension, and experience. For example, people on this board think that they can automatically judge you by referencing your experience to theirs, without fully knowing your experience because you cannot share it on this board because it is a safety risk.

This is not to slam or judge anyone else here, but rather just a reminder of how different our experiences can be by no fault of our own, other than living alone there as a foreigner.

BTW - did that guy expose himself to you in CM? How strange. The only time that I was groped and assaulted on the street was in CM as well. I was subtly blamed for it the next day by a Thai woman whom I told, and laughed at by young Thai men and their Canadian hipster friend.

Leave for awhile, girlx.

[lazeeboy]

well, I think it's good you're gone, and will be able to leave the country for awhile. You need a rest. I know exactly how you feel, and I am no way suggesting this is all in your mind or your fault. It is hard to be a single foreign woman in Thailand, and I agree, there are different levels of understanding, comprehension, and experience. For example, people on this board think that they can automatically judge you by referencing your experience to theirs, without fully knowing your experience because you cannot share it on this board because it is a safety risk.

This is not to slam or judge anyone else here, but rather just a reminder of how different our experiences can be by no fault of our own, other than living alone there as a foreigner.

BTW - did that guy expose himself to you in CM? How strange. The only time that I was groped and assaulted on the street was in CM as well. I was subtly blamed for it the next day by a Thai woman whom I told, and laughed at by young Thai men and their Canadian hipster friend.

Leave for awhile, girlx.

girlx a change is as good as a rest ,take care

[Sheryl]

Girlx,

I gather you're on your way outta here so maybe it's a moot point, but for what it is worth:

The incident you relate is not unusual, either here in Thailand or for that matter in most countries (and there are certainly plenty of perverts in NY!!). It is a sad fact of life for women. The thing is, your antenna are probably quite sharp for spotting these types and taking evasive action back home, but in a foreign culture it is harder.

Whether in Thailand or any other new place, be wary of strange men and don't let yourself wind up in an isolated place with them. For that matter, be careful of being alone in an isolated place even with men you know, especially in cultures where that may be taken as tacit agreement to sex.

And if you do end up in a fix, do exactly as you did: yell, holler, attract attention, make it clear this b ehavior is unwanted and offensive, etc. Do that as early on as possible and don't worry about "offending" the guy.

In Thailand or any other foreign country, making local friends is imperative both for a decent quality of life and also your own safety...friends and neighbors are who you will need to turn to if in a jam. Working from home this may be hard but make an effort. In Thailand and just abolut anywhere else, friendly relations operate along reciprocal lines. Be friendly and willing to do folks a favor and then you can call on them for favors in return. For example, if a neighbor or acquaintance wants help practicing English, offer to tutor them for free. And make friendly chat while you do. Presto, you now have a friend, or at least someone who owes you.

When someone in your neighborhood dies, go to the funeral. If someone is sick, show up with a gift of fruit. Bit by bit, like this you develop a support system. Then when you have problems you can call on these folk to advise you or help you out.

A local friend or friends whom you can ask for asdvice is an invaluable asset in learning to navigate any culture. Especially in my first few years in Thailand I relied heavily on Thai women I knew to help me interpret things and advise me on how I should act.

It is OK to have farang friends too, but if Thais (or people pretty much anywhere) perceive you as wanting to socialize just with other farang then they are going to see you as an outsider by choice and have little empathy for you.

[kat]

I agree there are pervs everywhere, and all women at some point in their lives have to deal with it, but the assigning of blame, support and level of responsibility in society are quite different. That's what makes or breaks your experience in a different culture, not that bad things happen.

[bendix]

I WISH PEOPLE WOULD STOP TRYING TO SUGAR COAT LIFE IN THAILAND. It is what it is. Most of the sods with the rose colored glasses are the ones being taken the most but are too dumb to know.

Would you like to expand on that ridiculously gross generaliation? Could you back it up with examples?

Perhaps you know many of our (because I think i'm one of your target market) personal and financial circumstances and would like to elaborate? How am I being taken? I do hope you can enlighten me?

Or - alternatively - shall we just dismiss that statement as stupid?

[page449]

I agree there are pervs everywhere, and all women at some point in their lives have to deal with it, but the assigning of blame, support and level of responsibility in society are quite different. That's what makes or breaks your experience in a different culture, not that bad things happen.

I agree, I come from civilized, developed, North America and I can just imagine what a pretty, young, female attendant would be exposed to while cleaning in a public men's toilet.

[Ulysses G.]

I agree there are pervs everywhere, and all women at some point in their lives have to deal with it, but the assigning of blame, support and level of responsibility in society are quite different. That's what makes or breaks your experience in a different culture, not that bad things happen.

Please don't tar us all with the same brush. Some of us are compassionate pervs.

[girlx]

sure, there are pervs everywhere, there are bad people everywhere, but they can blindside you in asia easier than they do at home!

[JimmyCA]

I WISH PEOPLE WOULD STOP TRYING TO SUGAR COAT LIFE IN THAILAND. It is what it is. Most of the sods with the rose colored glasses are the ones being taken the most but are too dumb to know.

Would you like to expand on that ridiculously gross generaliation? Could you back it up with examples?

Perhaps you know many of our (because I think i'm one of your target market) personal and financial circumstances and would like to elaborate? How am I being taken? I do hope you can enlighten me?

Or - alternatively - shall we just dismiss that statement as stupid?

We agree... your statement is indeed stupid

[Sheryl]

sure, there are pervs everywhere, there are bad people everywhere, but they can blindside you in asia easier than they do at home!

Not just Asia..in any unfamiliar culture, because it is harder to recognize the warning signs and cues. With time, one learns them and it gets easier.

Aside from that factor, another is how Western women specifically are viewed. In Thailand we are seen in a hyper-sexualized way, which makes things much more difficult. This is not a universal Asian thing. In neighboring Cambodia, for example, it is not at all the case and sexual assault, rape or perv displays (which I would actually categorize as sexual assault too, even if no touching involved) are rarely encountered by Western women -- altho local women suffer plenty.

[highdiver]

posted it a while back. but it seems to be relevant again.

Each one of us lives in two different realities. One is the reality as it

appears in front of us. It is reality as it is. The other is a parallel

reality, one that exists only in our minds. The "Mind Reality" is an

alternative to the real world. It is made up of a collection of ideas and

thoughts, most of them directly related to sense excitement and feelings.

this reality is exhibited in many "dooms day brigade" and "Thailand is the worst" members posts.

"Mind Reality" as per those farrangs in Thailand is divided into two sections –

the one contains an “Idealistic" perfect Thaialnd in which the farrang would

like to live. The second consists of everything which he conceives to be

wrong with thailand , as compared to his Ideal model.

The first is based on ideas of perfection, and the other is based on skill

of criticism, judgment and the pleasure of complaining.

Concepts such as Good and Bad, Right and Wrong, Past and Future,

expectations and disappointments,hopes, rules - all these are part of our idealistic and emotional world.

The heart of Dharma, as Zen Master Nishijima teaches , is that this confusion - between Reality as it is and reality as we perceive it through our mind or feel it through our senses - is the source of most people’s unhappiness.

and some of ourmembers are truley not happy.

so I understand that some members are very unhappy that thailand is not according to the reality they had invisioned it as farrangs in thailand. thailand is so sorry to have its own culture that so many of the members find it compulsory to put down and criticise mostly based on ignorent false superioty complex.

but thailand is the land of the thais. not the land of unhappy farrangs.

So incase you are not happy and you find yourself within a group of over arrogant, patronising,thai bashing farrangs who think that the sole existance of thailand is to be a playground for farrang..... please go back to where you came from.

[JR Texas]

On the subject of kindness and generosity in Thailand, IMHO I think all humans are selfish, the product of evolution. I think altruism is strongest within the "family," and starts to decline as one moves genetically away from the family. I also think that this is a universal trait.

Thais will happily take advantage of strangers with money. Kindness and generosity (and truth) in Thailand is very much linked to what advantage it brings to the individual. It is motivated, in large part, by selfishness. That is why the seller smiles when he thinks you just might buy something.........and frowns when you walk out the door.

In terms of truth, it is why, in times of crisis, many people say nothing is wrong and things have never been better. It is why the flow of cultural information today is so saturated with lies.

As a cultural species we can move beyond this.....but with stupid and selfish leaders like Reagan, Bush, TOXIN in office, that is hard to do. Why? Because the vast majority of people are followers, not leaders...itself, as the late Carl Sagan pointed out, a human trait.

It is very difficult to move beyond our evolutionary past. Now we are little more than animals.....the late Rene Dubos liked to say we are "so human an animal." I am afraid we are, at this point in our evolution, more animal than human. Homo sapiens sapiens.........not yet. For that to happen we must greatly reduce the size of the human population and develop and deploy a sustainable energy system....and change the way we think......and change the entire leadership structure.....lots of work to do.

Mother Theresa is no longer with us.......perhaps she was the exception to what I have stated above.

[bendix]

I WISH PEOPLE WOULD STOP TRYING TO SUGAR COAT LIFE IN THAILAND. It is what it is. Most of the sods with the rose colored glasses are the ones being taken the most but are too dumb to know.

Would you like to expand on that ridiculously gross generaliation? Could you back it up with examples?

Perhaps you know many of our (because I think i'm one of your target market) personal and financial circumstances and would like to elaborate? How am I being taken? I do hope you can enlighten me?

Or - alternatively - shall we just dismiss that statement as stupid?

We agree... your statement is indeed stupid

Let's try again, in very simple words so you can understand.

You make the statement that most people with rose coloured glasses are the ones being taken the most, but are too dumb to know it.

Could you back it up please?

[girlx]

Most of the sods with the rose colored glasses are the ones being taken the most but are too dumb to know.

in my experience this is true a lot of the time. an example- a very lovely couple from melbourne came to visit (a couple of years in a row) and fell in love with the beach where i live. they hung out and partied every night with some beach boys at a bar. finally, they decided to ditch their lives in melbourne and move to thailand permanently (knowing nothing at all about thai culture, business rules, land deals etc.). part of this plan was to rent land and invest a couple of million baht into a new bar which they would give to these beach boys to run. it will be opening in the next day or so. they are paying the boys quite large salaries and giving them a couple of days off a week, plus they can run the new bar however they choose. basically they have just fronted the money.

the guys who are working for them are murderers. they spent time in prison. one is a rapist who took part in a gang bang of a farang girl i know well, 2 years ago. they have been known to do a lot of drugs, womanize, and have instigated some pretty vicious fights with tourists. yet if any of the people who have lived in this area for a long time and know these guys mentions anything of the sort to this couple, their ears slam shut and they don't hear anything. they are constantly going on about how great these thai guys are and how kind and trustworthy the culture is. it is plain to everyone else that these boys have been on their best behavior in order to get this free bar out of them. but they have also managed to get everything in their name! i give it a couple of years before my friends are screwed, and i find that quite sad as they are very genuinely nice people who wanted to help these guys out.

there is story after story like this, and it is not restricted to just the beach boys or bar girls. there are countless land deals that have gone bad. there is the woman who married a guy who was a monk for 11 years after 3 months of knowing him, and starting building 5 houses on his land, after which he became seriously abusive to her. there are the married women who swear their husbands are faithful when i know that whenever i find myself in a position alone with them they try to pick me up, or they are seen down at "horny mile" with a bar girl. and there are the tourists musing about how friendly and smiley the thais are as they take their money, having charged them triple the usual price.

i suppose there are people like this everywhere in the world. i do not make the mistake of labelling the entire culture as being "bad". it is quite different from the west though, and thus it is easy to get confused by reactions here and be taken advantage of by those who are so inclined. thais do have culturally different ways of thinking regarding personal relations- friendships do not hold the same meaning here as they do in the west, whereas family holds a lot more meaning. most interaction the average westerner will get with thais initially will be transactional, and as such, quite superficialy friendly and nice. thais also do not prioritize truth and sincerity as we do in our culture (ie. they don't show emotions and try to keep "face"). what they look at as keeping the peace we, culturally, look at as deception. and it seems to me, that unless you do marry into a family here, thais absolutely will not accept you as anything other than a foreigner, and if you try to get involved with them beyond an acquaintanceship, they will see it as an opportunity to milk you for all you are worth, and will think you quite silly for trying to get involved in the first place. i am sure there are some exceptions to this rule, but i rarely meet them, and i started this topic to hear about people who do and can give more insight on living long term amongst the thais without being seen as a sucker for being open and generous.

you are all free to flame away, but i have been coming here 8 years and lived here for a total of 4, and i think my opinion is just as valid as any.

[girlx]

thailand is the land of the thais. not the land of unhappy farrangs.

this is quite true and i see your point, however i think it is possible to gain an understanding of what you are dealing with in staying here and learn to adjust quite happily. if people don't question, they don't learn.

[canadiangirl]

you are all free to flame away, but i have been coming here 8 years and lived here for a total of 4, and i think my opinion is just as valid as any.

Hi girlx,

I like reading your posts. Please continue posting. I find your stories interesting.

Do you think that things might be worse on the islands? I sometimes wonder that about your posts. I don't meant this as a reason for leaving, as sometimes one just loves a certain place and there's nothing for it. I just mean that the islands always struck me as a bit more dodgy in than the rest of Thailand. But this is just my impression formed in a few weeks spent visiting KPG/Ko Tao as a complete tourist, so I might be wrong.

[girlx]

yes, i do think they are overall worse on the islands. however i have also lived in bangkok for a year and been to most other parts of thailand, and found the same things there.

[thedi]

it is quite different from the west though,

Yes, it is different. Not better, not worth, but different.

thais do have culturally different ways of thinking regarding personal relations- friendships do not hold the same meaning here as they do in the west, whereas family holds a lot more meaning...

...and i started this topic to hear about people who do and can give more insight on living long term amongst the thais without being seen as a sucker for being open and generous

I guess, most of the long staying farangs, who are enjoying to live here, are married and have a family.

This is at least true for me. I came the first time to Thailand 28 years ago and I am married to a Thai family since 15 years. I still go to Switzerland twice a year to earn some money (it is so much easier there), but I stay here 8 month/year. I consider Thailand my home. This is my big family (which includes sisters and brothers of my wife, with their families), my wife, our daughter, our house, our family-life, our village... I feel good here. I am not a Thai, but I belong to the family. Naturally I have more cash than any others of my family, hence I spend more cash. But I get many things in return.

If I would calculate like a banker (remember, I am Swiss ), my family is a bad financial investment. But if I take quality of live, comfort of living and friendship into the calculation: there is no question of a balance. I give what I have: cash. the family contributes what each of them can do, and together we have a good life.

This things exist. This are not all sods with the rose colored glasses. There are people who can adapt to the Thai way of live and enjoy it here. We don't have to try to become a Thai, but we should participate in the Thai way of life. This includes to be member of a family. Not the boss or manager, but a member who contributes with what he has, in the same way as the other members of the family. There is a hierarchy in the family, and your position in the hierarchy depends on how much you contribute to the family. It's nice to be able to contribute cash which is so easy to get in farangland.

On the other hand, I will not deny that there are sods in Thailand. There are also victims of the Nigerian 419-scams. Sods are everywhere.

And then, there are people who can not enjoy the Thai way of life, once they found out, how this really is. No need to turn bitter. Look ahead. This was just an episode which didn't work out as hoped. Go on, enjoy your life!

Regards

Thedi