On 7/17/2026 at 11:53 AM, digger70 said:

There is no life after death. ones you're death that's it The End.

Death& Tragedy

No one can prove anything else.

Have you noticed that the ones MOST CONFIDENT they're going to Heaven are the ones WHO ARE MOST SCARED OF EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE

that might help them get there a little quicker if they don't cooperate. 😄

8 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

Speak for yourself. I lived in Paradise, but because of my sins it was taken from me (not directly and causatively), but the evidence is clear that you can be happy with what you have, or unhappy with what you have not, and the quantum is irrelevant. Everyone has daily troubles, and some are happy to face them, and some are unhappy about being unable to face them; the troubles may be the same - only the happiness, the fortitude is different.

And earth's "paradises" are short lived, unlike what we as believers are looking forward to. many people take what they have for granted, and many suffer from mental problems not of their own design, and nothing makes them go away. Until one sees what a large majority are going through on earth, what little they go through doesn't come close. Some troubles are easy to face, all depending on your own history and finances, but some have no cure. Paradise as we see it will always be better than anything we'll have here.

20 minutes ago, SiSePuede419 said:

Have you noticed that the ones MOST CONFIDENT they're going to Heaven are the ones WHO ARE MOST SCARED OF EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE

that might help them get there a little quicker if they don't cooperate. 😄

What exactly does that mean, cooperate, and with whom? I've never met anyone who's scared of everything and everyone, although that disorder does exist in paranoia.

There's actually nothing wrong with people being confident they're going to heaven, as that means they're living as good humans, along with believing in God.

If there isn't a heaven and only death, what does it matter? If there is a heaven, it surely does matter how you live your life.

30 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

Paradise will be nothing like living on earth. Most everyone has problems here, and some have nothing but problems, and many not caused by their own choices but of their birth environment, diseases, genetics and family history. Yes, it can be hell or purgatory, with spurts of heaven, but how many have heaven on earth for a long time? You can do your best and still not come up ahead. which is why we as believers see some thing better in the afterlife. I have friends who have had money, good partners, children who succeeded and still have daily troubles, especially physical ones, so it is a combination of all those, but doesn't last forever.

How will paradise change you? Will you still be the same? No more debates, no more illusions, no more struggles. What kind of afterlife would that be? Boring, if you ask me, and God forbid I end up in such a place. Everything I value as a human would no longer exist in paradise.

And I truly believe that deep down, everyone knows that when we die, we die. That’s it. Yet, for some reason, many still hope there is something more.

Life is precious because there is an end. A final end.

1 minute ago, fredwiggy said:

And earth's "paradises" are short lived, unlike what we as believers are looking forward to. many people take what they have for granted, and many suffer from mental problems not of their own design, and nothing makes them go away. Until one sees what a large majority are going through on earth, what little they go through doesn't come close. Some troubles are easy to face, all depending on your own history and finances, but some have no cure. Paradise as we see it will always be better than anything we'll have here.

That's the great sort of optimism that lets us forget our mundane inconveniences. Life as Purgatory; once we're done with it, we'll be happy, boundless and free. Purgatory is still a bit negative and troublesome, though.

Bearing in mind that we don't actually get any Readers' Reports from the afterlife, you might want to take the next two anecdotes with a pinch of salt:

A gentleman went to Hell and the devil said to him
"Right, your first punishment is that you must choose your own eternal punishment.

So what do you fancy - eternally pushing Sisyphus' rock up the mountain?
Eagles pecking your innards?
Or what about these guys?"
And he saw people up to their oxters in stinking sewage.
"I'm not sure about that - do you have anything else?"
"Well what about this?"
People standing knee-deep in sewage drinking Earl Grey tea
"Aye, that looks better; I'll have some of that"

"Right, tea break's over, back on your heads"

So you'll need to bear in mind that this is an anecdote from my youth, and you might want to use Google to understand how things were back then

Leonid Brezhnev passed away, and went down to face his fate.

"Right Leonid, you have to remember that we have a strict one-out - one in policy here, so you'll get to choose your punishment, and whoever is currently suffering that will be released; so let me show you round"
And he goes to the first cell, where Lenin is being toasted with blow torches.
"No, I don't fancy that"
In the next room, Stalin is being whipped
"That doesn't look so bad, but I don't want him to go free"

"Well, this is your last choice"

And he saw Khrushchev in bed with Rachel Welsh.

"Aye - that's the one for me!"
"I'm so grateful!" Rachel cried, on her way out.

6 minutes ago, Hummin said:

How will paradise change you? Will you still be the same? No more debates, no more illusions, no more struggles. What kind of afterlife would that be? Boring, if you ask me, and God forbid I end up in such a place. Everything I value as a human would no longer exist in paradise.

Check out this Twilight Zone episode, dude!

"A Nice Place to Visit" (Season 1, Episode 28): A petty criminal dies and wakes up in a luxurious paradise where a jovial guide named Pip grants every hedonistic wish. The twist is that the criminal’s "perfect heaven" of endless indulgence ultimately becomes a torturous prison, revealing he is actually in Hell.

7 minutes ago, Hummin said:

How will paradise change you? Will you still be the same? No more debates, no more illusions, no more struggles. What kind of afterlife would that be? Boring, if you ask me, and God forbid I end up in such a place. Everything I value as a human would no longer exist in paradise.

And I truly believe that deep down, everyone knows that when we die, we die. That’s it. Yet, for some reason, many still hope there is something more.

Life is precious because there is an end. A final end.

No more worries about life's headaches. No worry about being sick, paying bills, about what your children are going through. Everything that's good on earth without those added like they are now. Most people on earth believe in God and an afterlife.

4 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

What exactly does that mean, cooperate, and with whom? I've never met anyone who's scared of everything and everyone, although that disorder does exist in paranoia.

There's actually nothing wrong with people being confident they're going to heaven, as that means they're living as good humans, along with believing in God.

If there isn't a heaven and only death, what does it matter? If there is a heaven, it surely does matter how you live your life.

I don't think that most people who are confident of going to heaven really understand what good and evil mean, and they are sadly deluding themselves. That is probably the biggest curse that religion has inflicted upon us.

6 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

That's the great sort of optimism that lets us forget our mundane inconveniences. Life as Purgatory; once we're done with it, we'll be happy, boundless and free. Purgatory is still a bit negative and troublesome, though.

Bearing in mind that we don't actually get any Readers' Reports from the afterlife, you might want to take the next two anecdotes with a pinch of salt:

A gentleman went to Hell and the devil said to him
"Right, your first punishment is that you must choose your own eternal punishment.

So what do you fancy - eternally pushing Sisyphus' rock up the mountain?
Eagles pecking your innards?
Or what about these guys?"
And he saw people up to their oxters in stinking sewage.
"I'm not sure about that - do you have anything else?"
"Well what about this?"
People standing knee-deep in sewage drinking Earl Grey tea
"Aye, that looks better; I'll have some of that"

"Right, tea break's over, back on your heads"

So you'll need to bear in mind that this is an anecdote from my youth, and you might want to use Google to understand how things were back then

Leonid Brezhnev passed away, and went down to face his fate.

"Right Leonid, you have to remember that we have a strict one-out - one in policy here, so you'll get to choose your punishment, and whoever is currently suffering that will be released; so let me show you round"
And he goes to the first cell, where Lenin is being toasted with blow torches.
"No, I don't fancy that"
In the next room, Stalin is being whipped
"That doesn't look so bad, but I don't want him to go free"

"Well, this is your last choice"

And he saw Khrushchev in bed with Rachel Welsh.

"Aye - that's the one for me!"
"I'm so grateful!" Rachel cried, on her way out.

I'm almost 70, so I know how things were back then, and don't go by other's opinions of what will be but my own beliefs, both from faith and common sense. We have daily proof of God's creations, along with some who have died and come back, including a Myanmar monk who saw Buddha in hell, after being dead for three days, going there and coming back. What I don't understand is how strongly some try to convince believers there isn't a God or heaven. Doesn't work.

4 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

I don't think that most people who are confident of going to heaven really understand what good and evil mean, and they are sadly deluding themselves. That is probably the biggest curse that religion has inflicted upon us.

Religions are man made. God isn't. A particular religion isn't necessary to have a relationship with God. Just a personal belief. Most everyone understands the difference between good and evil, and it's taught at home. Hopefully.

1 minute ago, fredwiggy said:

I'm almost 70, so I know how things were back then, and don't go by other's opinions of what will be but my own beliefs, both from faith and common sense. We have daily proof of God's creations, along with some who have died and come back, including a Myanmar monk who saw Buddha in hell, after being dead for three days, going there and coming back. What I don't understand is how strongly some try to convince believers there isn't a God or heaven. Doesn't work.

What was Buddha doing in Hell? that's the last place I'd expect to see him. Just goes to show that you never can tell

To be fair, it's the last place I'd expect to see anyone, and I'd be relieved on both our accounts to renew acquaintances in purgatory.

11 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

No more worries about life's headaches. No worry about being sick, paying bills, about what your children are going through. Everything that's good on earth without those added like they are now. Most people on earth believe in God and an afterlife.

If that gives you peace of mind, so be it. But I have to ask you, since you have studied psychology for over 30 years, you know better than most that the human mind is full of biases and flaws. We are capable of believing things for both known and unknown reasons. Why should your belief in an afterlife be any different?

1 minute ago, StreetCowboy said:

What was Buddha doing in Hell? that's the last place I'd expect to see him. Just goes to show that you never can tell

To be fair, it's the last place I'd expect to see anyone, and I'd be relieved on both our accounts to renew acquaintances in purgatory.

Buddha thought believing in God was harmful, and has millions of followers believing him. That we can do it all on our own. Jesus was the son of God, and spoke of heaven and God. Buddha believed in a rebirth. How would this happen if there wasn't a force behind it? Where is this nirvana?Why do so few "experience" other lives? It's his and a few other's thinking.

Just now, Hummin said:

If that gives you peace of mind, so be it. But I have to ask you, since you have studied psychology for over 30 years, you know better than most that the human mind is full of biases and flaws. We are capable of believing things for both known and unknown reasons. Why should your belief in an afterlife be any different?

All from faith and thinking that a creator makes a lot more sense. Some think what we are taught from birth to leaving our parents home is brainwashing of sorts, that you can't change it, but the brain is still developing until the mid 20's, and some things can be figured out by research and an open mind. Many things are hard to change, like how we treat others around us, especially after suffering from abuse and neglect. Yes there are flaws and bias in thinking, and some things take time to decipher if you want them to be.

18 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

What was Buddha doing in Hell? that's the last place I'd expect to see him. Just goes to show that you never can tell

To be fair, it's the last place I'd expect to see anyone, and I'd be relieved on both our accounts to renew acquaintances in purgatory.

This is the video of the monk...............https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7cR_v5u59M&t=1s

3 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

Buddha thought believing in God was harmful, and has millions of followers believing him. That we can do it all on our own. Jesus was the son of God, and spoke of heaven and God. Buddha believed in a rebirth. How would this happen if there wasn't a force behind it? Where is this nirvana?Why do so few "experience" other lives? It's his and a few other's thinking.

3 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

Buddha thought believing in God was harmful, and has millions of followers believing him. That we can do it all on our own. Jesus was the son of God, and spoke of heaven and God. Buddha believed in a rebirth. How would this happen if there wasn't a force behind it? Where is this nirvana?Why do so few "experience" other lives? It's his and a few other's thinking.

It must be dreadful in Nirvanha, never knowing how long it is going to last - am I truely free from desire? Should I be enjoying this less? I'm going to carry on with my purgatory, and my few brief moments of paradise lost, making the best of what I have, the most of what I have lost, and the challenges that I have to face. You can look forward to your heaven all you want, if it helps you suffer the slings and arrows, but there may be more joy in taking arms against a sea of troubles, and by opposing, end them

Just now, StreetCowboy said:

It must be dreadful in Nirvanha, never knowing how long it is going to last - am I truely free from desire? Should I be enjoying this less? I'm going to carry on with my purgatory, and my few brief moments of paradise lost, making the best of what I have, the most of what I have lost, and the challenges that I have to face. You can look forward to your heaven all you want, if it helps you suffer the slings and arrows, but there may be more joy in taking arms against a sea of troubles, and by opposing, end them

I always do my best to protect myself and my family against all harms. I do believe in an eye for an eye with those regards. I only answer to God, as everyone else is an equal unless they intentionally harm others.

1 minute ago, fredwiggy said:

I always do my best to protect myself and my family against all harms. I do believe in an eye for an eye with those regards. I only answer to God, as everyone else is an equal unless they intentionally harm others.

I'd make the most of your time here, with opinions like that.
But we can all say that our opinions are better than our neighbours'.

God would not have given us four cheeks if he had not intended us to turn them.

2 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

I'd make the most of your time here, with opinions like that.
But we can all say that our opinions are better than our neighbours'.

God would not have given us four cheeks if he had not intended us to turn them.

Yes, most of the time you can turn that cheek. Sometimes you can't. It doesn't always mean violence but putting someone in their place, the law being involved if they're breaking any. Some wars have shown us that we can't look away all the time.

14 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

All from faith and thinking that a creator makes a lot more sense. Some think what we are taught from birth to leaving our parents home is brainwashing of sorts, that you can't change it, but the brain is still developing until the mid 20's, and some things can be figured out by research and an open mind. Many things are hard to change, like how we treat others around us, especially after suffering from abuse and neglect. Yes there are flaws and bias in thinking, and some things take time to decipher if you want them to be.

GeographicReference

So how do you know your belief in a creator comes from truth, and not from the same psychological influences you describe? Saying it makes more sense to you is honest, but it is still faith. Even I can admit there may be a higher power or a creator. But why do you, and everyone else who believes in a god, heaven, and hell, need to create stories without proof? Why do we need something to believe in?

Ask yourself, why do you need to believe? Not only that there is a creator, but in that specific God, and those specific promises.

Just now, Hummin said:

So how do you know your belief in a creator comes from truth, and not from the same psychological influences you describe? Saying it makes more sense to you is honest, but it is still faith. Even I can admit there may be a higher power or a creator. But why do you, and everyone else who believes in a god, heaven, and hell, need to create stories without proof? Why do we need something to believe in?

Ask yourself, why do you need to believe? Not only that there is a creator, but in that specific God, and those specific promises.

I look at this world and all it's miracles, and know that it could only have been created with a plan in mind.

1 minute ago, fredwiggy said:

I look at this world and all it's miracles, and know that it could only have been created with a plan in mind.

Do you think it was a good plan?

Do you think that your inability to imagine how the world could evolve by chance and evolution may be a limit of your imagination, rather than your imagination being able to encompass any circumstance, however remote?

You have far more faith in central planning than do I.

Just now, fredwiggy said:

I look at this world and all it's miracles, and know that it could only have been created with a plan in mind.

You intentionally avoid my question.

It is not about whether there is a creator or not. It is about your specific belief in that God, under those specific terms and with that level of conviction.

Nobody can prove or disprove a creator. But we can say there is no proof for a specific creator with specific intentions.

Just now, StreetCowboy said:

Do you think it was a good plan?

Do you think that your inability to imagine how the world could evolve by chance and evolution may be a limit of your imagination, rather than your imagination being able to encompass any circumstance, however remote?

You have far more faith in central planning than do I.

No, it looks like a plan. Evolution possible, as there's evidence of some of that. All of this with all of life's species, the brain and how it works, the moon and tides, the distance from the sun, all things we need in one place happening by chance? Nah.

2 minutes ago, Hummin said:

You intentionally avoid my question.

It is not about whether there is a creator or not. It is about your specific belief in that God, under those specific terms and with that level of conviction.

Nobody can prove or disprove a creator. But we can say there is no proof for a specific creator with specific intentions.

I didn't intentionally avoid your question. I answered with my belief and the common sense of all things in the universe.

If there isn't a specific creator how many are there? If there were more than one God, wouldn't we see evidence of some type of competition between them and not just the opinions of humans?

1 minute ago, fredwiggy said:

No, it looks like a plan. Evolution possible, as there's evidence of some of that. All of this with all of life's species, the brain and how it works, the moon and tides, the distance from the sun, all things we need in one place happening by chance? Nah.

Life would be the same only different if things were different.
When I look back at the mistakes I have made, and how they have influenced my life, I have no regrets, because if I had done things differently, I would have made other mistakes. If things were different, they would not be the same.

We all make our own heaven, hell or purgatory, and the most untrustworthy are those that have faith that they ar right and heading towards heaven.

3 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

I didn't intentionally avoid your question. I answered with my belief and the common sense of all things in the universe.

If there isn't a specific creator how many are there? If there were more than one God, wouldn't we see evidence of some type of competition between them and not just the opinions of humans?

Again, you avoid my question.

4 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

I didn't intentionally avoid your question. I answered with my belief and the common sense of all things in the universe.

If there isn't a specific creator how many are there? If there were more than one God, wouldn't we see evidence of some type of competition between them and not just the opinions of humans?

Even polytheists believe that there is one supreme creator (wild conjecture on my part) but most monotheists concur that they believe in the same God - hard to argue otherwise, when you believe that there is only one - but disagree in the manner of his worship, some dietary restrictions, and the relationship between God and his prophets. How people can get worked up about such trivia is beyond me, but I rarely go to Glasgow.

1 minute ago, Hummin said:

Again, you avoid my question.

I already said my belief comes from faith, and common sense. I cannot prove to anyone God exists. I just look at what I've seen all my life and think this is a plan, that all we see are indeed miracles of a creation, and not by chance. All believers feel much the same.

9 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

I already said my belief comes from faith, and common sense. I cannot prove to anyone God exists. I just look at what I've seen all my life and think this is a plan, that all we see are indeed miracles of a creation, and not by chance. All believers feel much the same.

I respect that you admit it is faith. We have no disagreement there. But common sense is subjective. What seems obvious to you may not seem obvious to someone else.

Nobody can prove or disprove a creator. But we can say there is no proof for a specific creator with specific intentions.

I have to stop you on one point. The Bible does refer to other gods, yet says there is only one true God. If there were more than one creator, why couldn’t creation and evolution be the work of more than one?

And you still haven’t answered my question. It is not about whether there is a creator. It is about your specific belief in that God, under those specific terms and with that level of conviction.

Last but not least: Your claim that all believers feel much the same falls under one of the flaws of the human mind, in my opinion. Not only is it a belief, but it is also supported by psychology and neuroscience.