Phonetic Dictionary

[Big A]

Hi

I am learning Thai at Bangkok Grace Polytechnic and am making good progress. However, in the lower levels, they teach new vocabulary in Phonetics (instead of Thai script or standard Roman script)

All vowels are in the phonetic script (like the schwa [upside-down e] and 'back-to-front' C) and the only consonant in phonetics is ('ŋ' for ng). Everything else is in standard Roman script.

Does anyone know where I can buy a Phonetic script (Thai words) - standard English (Roman) script dictionary?

Thanx in advance

Big A

Edited August 31, 2007 by Big A

[meadish_sweetball]

There really is no 'standard Roman script' except for the RTGS, and the RTGS works badly if you want to learn to pronounce the words correctly.

I am not clear on whether you want one that resembles the system you describe, or one that uses no phonetic characters whatsoever?

[Big A]

Sorry

I actually meant the SAMPA alphabet.

http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/thai.htm

So, I'd like to know if I can get a dictionary SAMPA (Thai) to standard English.

[meadish_sweetball]

Ok, now I'm with you.

I've never seen the SAMPA system before... nor any dictionaries that use it. Looks a bit weird at first glance but with the comparison to IPA I can see it makes as much sense as other consistent systems. Should be fine once you're used to it.

I'm partial to IPA-based systems myself as that's what I learned with (the AUA and Haas systems). They'll also be useful if you want to learn other languages in the future.

Perhaps somebody else knows of a SAMPA based dictionary, but if not, my recommendation is that you get onto reading Thai script as soon as possible, and cut out the middle man so to speak. Then you'll be able to make use of the best dictionaries on the market.

There aren't that many Thai characters to learn. The main hurdle is to get good at syllable analysis, to apply the tone rules correctly. Once you can do that, you can read. If you're busy with other studies, perhaps one Thai consonant a day would do the trick? Two months and you'll know them all. Or if you have more time on your hands, five a day - then you'll have all the consonants in just 10 days.

[Big A]

I can read Thai quite well, but haven't a clue about the tones!!

[Big A]

ค ง ช ซ ฌ ญ ณ ท ธ น พ ฟ ภ ม ย ลร วฬฮ are the low class letters

ก จ ฎ ฏ ด ต บ ป อ are the middle class letters

ข ฉ ถ ฐ ผ ศ ษ ส ห are the high class letters

Am I correct in assuming that I should learn

* the above first

* then learn the tone markers (may ake, may tho etc)

* and finally learn the short vowels, long vowels, stopped final sounds and unstopped final sounds to

detemine the tone?

Edited August 31, 2007 by Big A

[meadish_sweetball]

Yes, pretty much. I actually was halfway through writing a theoretical guide to determining syllable tones, but thought better of it as I am sure there are better guides already out there.

You will need to learn to distinguish a sub group among the low consonants as well, the sonorants. Their distinguishing feature is that they can carry the tone, like vowels do.

These are the sonorants: ง ญ ณ น ม ย ล ร ว ฬ

...and when either of these signs, or a long vowel, are the final sound of a syllable, the syllable is referred to as a 'live' syllable.

Syllables that end in another consonant sound, or with a short vowel (that phonetically carries a glottal stop which is to be seen as a consonant) are referred to as 'dead' syllables.

[Big A]

Oh God. More confusion!!!

[meadish_sweetball]

That's why I didnt finish the other post. Sorry.

Perhaps you should head over to a branch of Asia books and see if you can get your hands on a copy of AUA's Reading and Writing course?

[montrii]

Hey there Big A

As someone who has studied Thai for many years, is pretty good at reading/writing, and has seen many systems, I think you would do well to follow the phonetic system they've got you going on, which sounds like the Mary Haas system from the '50s. I assume they use tone marks as well. That system is simple, completely accurate, and easy to look up in a glossary or dictionary.

All the romanized dictionaries, quite frankly, suck, and there are no good standards for them. As far as SAMPA, if it's as consistent as IPA, that would be fine, but I'm pretty sure there's nothing out there like that.

IPA is good, but it's not as easy to look stuff up in as the Haas system. I have created a dictionary just for myself (maybe someday I'll think about publishing) which uses a modified version of IPA for the phonetics which is closer to the Haas system than to actual IPA, which is more complex than is actually needed for the purpose.

If you mean it when you say you "read Thai well but haven't a clue about the tones," I really have to say you should rethink your concept. Tones are an absolutely essential part of the language, and of the writing system. If you don't understand tones, how can you tell the difference between the words for "rice" and "white," for instance, or "that's right" and "use?" Even if you hear the differences, you won't be able to tell them when reading unless you understand the tones and the rules for writing them in Thai.

The dictionary I always recommend to people is the Pocket Thai Dictionary (Periplus Pocket Dictionary) by Michael Golding. The link here is to a review of it I wrote on Amazon. You should be able to buy it at Asia Books.

My advice is to just learn the system they have given you, pick up that book, and start jammin away. I bet you'll like it once you get started.

-Montrii (Peter)

Hi

I am learning Thai at Bangkok Grace Polytechnic and am making good progress. However, in the lower levels, they teach new vocabulary in Phonetics (instead of Thai script or standard Roman script)

All vowels are in the phonetic script (like the schwa [upside-down e] and 'back-to-front' C) and the only consonant in phonetics is ('ŋ' for ng). Everything else is in standard Roman script.

Does anyone know where I can buy a Phonetic script (Thai words) - standard English (Roman) script dictionary?

Thanx in advance

Big A

[Richard W]

All the romanized dictionaries, quite frankly, suck, and there are no good standards for them. As far as SAMPA, if it's as consistent as IPA, that would be fine, but I'm pretty sure there's nothing out there like that.

It's as good as IPA.

I'm wondering if Thai SAMPA has been revised. I thought it took short open syllables as underlying rather than glottal stops, but on taking a second look I see final glottal stops. This means it can handle the difference between the vowel of เผียะ (SAMPA phia?_2, www.thai2english.com X-SAMPA phìa) and เมีย (SAMPA mia_1, X-SAMPA mi:a).

[DavidHouston]

Big A,

Me thinks thou art something other than what thou profess to be.

I think you know Thai very well; indeed, you may be a British professor of linguistics shilling for the SAMPA alphabet. Good for you!

I looked at the website you mentioned in your post and it seems to be very viable. All the obvious questions are present: if one wants to know how the SAMPA transliteration system deals with a particular Thai sound, one relates the Thai sample word to the Sampra alphabet. This works well and there is a simple one-for-one relationship between the elements of both systems. But that raises the question of post hoc ergo propter hoc: if one can read the Thai script sufficiently well to obtain the SAMPA equivalent, what then is the need for the transliteraton system?

The need, it seems to me, is not for the ordinary lay person studying a particular langauge, but for language scholars an professional linguists studying, for example, migration paths of langauges and dialects and comparing morphology of sounds of language dialects.

At some point the discussion almost turned into an Anglo-American discourse of the merits or demerits of Mary Haas vs SAMPA. Like the Thais say, cant we just have "samanachan"?

Edited September 1, 2007 by DavidHouston

[Big A]

......you may be a British professor of linguistics.....

Enjoyed that one, David!!

Many thanks to all posters for advice. Will keep on persevering.

Edited September 1, 2007 by Big A

[mangkorn]

If one does not know the tone rules, it is not possible to be able "to read Thai well."

In fact, it is absolutely impossible to read Thai at all, in that case.

[DavidHouston]

If one does not know the tone rules, it is not possible to be able "to read Thai well."

In fact, it is absolutely impossible to read Thai at all, in that case.

I respectfully disagree. Take the Western study of classical languages: Latin and Greek. Generations of students have studied Cicero, Ceasar, Virgil, Ovid, and Homer without having any idea as to how the Romans and Greek pronounced their languages. It is indeed possible that someone could learn Thai or Chinese solely from the written version of the language without being able to speak the language. Indeed many Asian students learn English with one might call mathematical precision being able to read but failing to communicate in the written form.

I am not smart enough to learn Thai that way but it is conceivable that a student of Thai could memorize all the vocabulary and spellings of Thai while having little understanding of pronunciation. The difficult is not the impossible.

[Richard W]

ค ง ช ซ ฌ ญ ณ ท ธ น พ ฟ ภ ม ย ลร วฬฮ are the low class letters

ก จ ฎ ฏ ด ต บ ป อ are the middle class letters

ข ฉ ถ ฐ ผ ศ ษ ส ห are the high class letters

You missed eight letters out:

Low: (ฅ) ฆ ฑ ฒ ฤ ฦ

High: (ฃ) ฝ

If you're still learning the classes, you may find the table 'An Alternative Presentation of Thai Consonants' useful.