People Leaving Due To Visa Restriction

[cclub75]

There never were any statistics to this effect,

Indeed.

I'm wondering why the thai gvt doesn't release those datas...

I can't believe that they don't have them... Total of visas issued per year, per type, per nationality etc.

My guess : the figures, and the trend, are way too high ! It would be like an embarrassment.

[Briggsy]

There never were any statistics to this effect,

Indeed.

I'm wondering why the thai gvt doesn't release those datas...

I can't believe that they don't have them... Total of visas issued per year, per type, per nationality etc.

My guess : the figures, and the trend, are way too high ! It would be like an embarrassment.

If you release the stats then you have to provide the fee revenue to match the stats to the treasury and also hope no-one in the know doesn't contradict the stats. Best to say nothing.

[keestha]

When somebody says he is leaving because of the visa requirements getting tougher, it might not be the only real reason he decided to call it a day.

In the course of the years I have seen people leaving for reasons varying from "I can't stand the climate anymore" to "it is better for the future of my half Thai child that we move to Farangistan".

Often I wondered if the stated reason for departure was the only one. In Thailand there are a lot of ill adjusted westerners who didn't even take the trouble to learn Thai. They are constantly moaning about the way things are here. Well no wonder that more than a few eventually realize they are not happy here, and that it is better to head for the airport.

[richard10365]

For Thailand, it would be a problem if the number of people leaving was greater than the number of people staying.

In the army, people were comming and going all the time. Some left because their time was up and others were forced out. There was always a steady supply of replacements comming in to refill the ranks. Attrition was not a problem.

I believe the same is true for Thailand. As long as the number of people leaving is not greater than the number of people staying, then it's really not a problem for Thailand and Thai authorities are not worried at all.

[PeaceBlondie]

richard, I don't see that the Thai authorities would consider a drop in the number of long-term expatriates as being a bad thing, or a serious problem. A university fears a drop in enrollment; stores fear a drop in customers or revenue; and five-star hotel fear a drop in luxury tourists. However, an essentially closed society of 63 million people can feel more threatened by an increase of 100,000 more foreigners, than a decrease of 200,000 long-term foreigners. If our presence here amounts to even a small blip on the national radar screen, it is more likely perceived as an invasion of unknown intruders.

[younghusband]

I too don't doubt that people are leaving. It is probably a combination of lack of funds (THB getting stronger), the rise in retirement funds needed, tightening on visa running regs, and the general cost of living as well as the general 'I've been Thailand-ed' out sentiment which even a rose coloured glasses wearing, thailand apologist like me feels from time to time. But of course, that is only what I hear here on TV.

But this is one end of the spectum. At the other end, higher up, I don't see change. Independent business people, doing smart things here in Thailand are doing well. More people arriving and setting up businesses and consultancies. Managed funds seeing quailty on the SET and buying like there is no tomorrow. Even amongst my circle of friends - which includes plenty of teachers - they are all still here. They hear about these visa changes, but they all seem to be chugging along as it never seems to affect them.

I think Samran touches on an important truth which is often overlooked.No Thai government has ever marketed the country as a retirement destination or as a permanent base for foreigners without a credible employment situation.Despite the recent tightening up, the most striking aspect of Thai immigration policy towards foreigners is its remarkable tolerance.I do feel sympathy for those who have acquired family responsibilities and who are incovenienced by various restrictions but they always have the option to return to paid employment in their home countries.If I can speak as devil's advocate it must surely be apparent that, although probably not a major area of national concern, the Thai authorities must be slightly bemused by the vast army of expatriates without any obvious reason for being here.The whole Thai visa constituency was largely invented by expatriates and there has never been any suggestion that Thailand invited hordes of not very well off expatriates to live here (as opposed to tourism).

I think the way ahead is perhaps to reduce the number of expatriates living here but to extend to the smaller number greater benefits.Inevitably this means the better off, the better educated and those with a credible reason for being here will benefit.Elitist perhaps but to repeat myself the Thai government has never encouraged "retirees" to live here permanently, unlike say Costa Rica or even Malaysia.

[Sateev]

I think the way ahead is perhaps to reduce the number of expatriates living here but to extend to the smaller number greater benefits.Inevitably this means the better off, the better educated and those with a credible reason for being here will benefit.Elitist perhaps but to repeat myself the Thai government has never encouraged "retirees" to live here permanently, unlike say Costa Rica or even Malaysia.

Why ever would they 'encourage' retirees? Unlike Malaysia, or even Costa Rica, they have been lining up at the airport to get here, so why go to the trouble of marketing the place as a retiree haven?

On the other hand, Thailand has never had a clear, unequivocal policy on retiree immigration. It has been blowing in the wind, now favorable, now unfavorable, subject to whim and whimsey, and the capricious decision-making process at the individual Immigration officer level. True, for a long time it was relatively easy, but now it is not.

The main thing to understand, if you didn't before, is that you are adrift in a sea of uncertainty if you think you can retire here. Those who are resourceful, and wary, will be able to pull it off, albeit at some considerable inconvenience. Those who want to 'play by the rules', and settle down in relative hassle-free security are swimming in the wrong pond. Sad, but true.

I am sincerely sorry for those who are only just now discovering the impermanent nature of all things Thai, and I hope things swing back the other way, but I fully understand why people feel the need to leave. In the end, we all need to belong somewhere, and if you go by recent, and, truth told, not-so-recent history, this is not it.

Sateev

[h5n1]

Todays BKK Post notes dire slow down in the economy. The thing about Thailand is that it really only developed one industry - Tourism (and does have some decent agro export). I had heard once that it was 7% of GDP. TAT counts as visits all enters so if you enter Thailand 10x one year - that's counted as ten people. You're not even a tourist and really should not be counted at all.

I just keep wondering what are all the people that own hotels, apts in Pattaya going to do, it is so crazy overbuilt.

Back to the subject, I will be one of those leaving. The currency is already to strong and I'm paying about B2000 a month and DIY my own visa. I came to Pattaya ironically because I found the people more nice than backpacking around in more touristy areas (i.e. islands) which have become nothing but a scam. Now, with the people so sour here, its not a reason to stay.

I saw a bit on channel News Asia about how the happiness is leaving ASiaas it modernizes, esp emphasis was on Thailand and Thai smile.

Thailand has no real retiree numbers to boast. Last I saw was under 2000 and that was up from a few hundred.

Thai authorities must be slightly bemused by the vast army of expatriates without any obvious reason for being here.The whole Thai visa constituency was largely invented by expatriates and there has never been any suggestion that Thailand invited hordes of not very well off expatriates to live here (as opposed to tourism).

Pattaya is built on these sorts of people. I don't think the govt woke up one morning and discovered the situation. Pattaya has actively encouraged the lifestyle.

Why should Thailand care why we are here as long as we obey the law and customs? Tourist/Expat is free income that goes to the bottom GDP. In a nation looking at bad economic numbers, rocky stock market, endemic corruption - every satang counts (to some).

In the US almost everyone is welcome as long as they can support themselves and will leave. Why should not a country with all sorts of economic issues be as welcoming?

[samran]

In the US almost everyone is welcome as long as they can support themselves and will leave. Why should not a country with all sorts of economic issues be as welcoming?

While I see your point, I think you need to be careful. Most countries that have traditionally welcomed foreigners - ie the US, UK, Australia, NZ, Canada and somewhat belatedly, parts of the EU - have welcomed skilled migration.

The bar they set is higher. The general principal is not just those who can come and support themselves (which does offer 'some' addition to the bottom line GDP), but those who can actually work and contribute to the economy, bringng in skills and knowledge that can add value to the economy, and help grow it. These people have many times the value of a retiree, who while spends their money (always nice to get) don't produce anything.

Comparing it to Thailand is hard, but I expect that they share the same view. Work permits as far as I see (working with lots of expats) are as easy and straightforward as you are going to get anywhere in the world - which says to me that the government will continue to encourage this kind of migration to Thailand. Additionally, the routes to PR and citizenship are most open to those who live work and can show a economic contribution to Thailand above and beyond a pension stream. I think this will continue to be the case.

I know we are leaving out other areas like family renunion which on balance I beleive is badly handled here. But for me, if I as to run an immigration programme, I would for the sake of the country and its properity run a programme focussed on skilled migrants.

[lopburi3]

I don't believe many would classify the Irish potato farmers of my US ancestry as skilled labor - but they were welcomed; and I do not accept that those on retirement do not contribute anything to Thailand or other countries. Everyone contributes, be it good or bad. The health care field will make money for the lifetime of those who are on retirement. Just as Florida and other states in the US have learned - those on retirement can contribute greatly. Unfortunately here the full potential has not been appreciated and the "no work permit" is an example of that; so those that want to publicly help are prevented from doing so and must keep there teaching among the family. There is a great deal of wisdom in age (although I know those without it [age] can never really appreciate that fact until the years catch up with them). Thailand does not need skilled foreign workers - it needs skilled Thai workers and that could come from those who have retired in the rat race and who now have the time to pass on there talents - but it is blocked.

[Jingthing]

I do think those on retirement visas benefit Thailand. I also think Thai immigration can welcome us, play passive aggressive with us (the current stance I think), or kick all of us out. I do kind of wish they would take a definitive stand so I can know if and when I will be moving.

[LivinLOS]

The bar they set is higher. The general principal is not just those who can come and support themselves (which does offer 'some' addition to the bottom line GDP), but those who can actually work and contribute to the economy, bringng in skills and knowledge that can add value to the economy, and help grow it. These people have many times the value of a retiree, who while spends their money (always nice to get) don't produce anything.

Comparing it to Thailand is hard, but I expect that they share the same view. Work permits as far as I see (working with lots of expats) are as easy and straightforward as you are going to get anywhere in the world - which says to me that the government will continue to encourage this kind of migration to Thailand. Additionally, the routes to PR and citizenship are most open to those who live work and can show a economic contribution to Thailand above and beyond a pension stream. I think this will continue to be the case.

I know we are leaving out other areas like family renunion which on balance I beleive is badly handled here. But for me, if I as to run an immigration programme, I would for the sake of the country and its properity run a programme focussed on skilled migrants.

I would tend to disagree with this on a purely financial point of view (and I am not a retiree so see no need to defend them).. But retirees who dont work are a source of direct foriegn exchange, foriegn exchange is what get a country richer than its neighbours, just moving money around in the local economy does little to raise the standard of living v other countries it is competing with.

So the retiree that lives here simply brings money in from the outside.. Is basically just a net boon in financial terms. The person who comes here and works here makes money in the local economy and all they do is pass it from person to person not benefit Thailand PLC in the same direct way. Industries that make high amounts of foriegn exchange are usually a countries most important asset.

[asiaworld]

There never were any statistics to this effect,

Indeed.

I'm wondering why the thai gvt doesn't release those datas...

I can't believe that they don't have them... Total of visas issued per year, per type, per nationality etc.

My guess : the figures, and the trend, are way too high ! It would be like an embarrassment.

There can be no stats whatsoever on this ! Because even how settled you may think you are here, all you can be in the eyes of Thailand is well: NON-Immigrant !! Even PR doesn't gives you any rights to settle, comparatively to ALL other countries..Well

Name any other place on earth, where PR is work permit restricted, and also in very few it is LOST easily if you do not show up for 1 year .. Unfortunately it is still truth, than for every fedup soul, there is 1-2 of hopeful newcomers, so statistically government doest feel affected.. And besides, thais stopped accepting any foreigners tointegrate intothe society ages ago..

Chinese,sikhs & some neighbors were the last 'lucky bunch' .. Doors were slammed down decades ago

[teacher]

For every one that leaves, four come in to take their place.

I think you should take a look at Pattaya, its the quietest i have ever known it. Even bars are shutting up early as they have no customers. Many many bars for sale.

Even some builders have stopped there projects because houses are NOT selling (confirmed by property developer i know)

[tropo]

The whole Thai visa constituency was largely invented by expatriates and there has never been any suggestion that Thailand invited hordes of not very well off expatriates to live here (as opposed to tourism).

I think the way ahead is perhaps to reduce the number of expatriates living here but to extend to the smaller number greater benefits.Inevitably this means the better off, the better educated and those with a credible reason for being here will benefit.

The only problem with your theory is that expats (retirees over 50) have been the least affected by the new visa regulations.

[rexall]

Sun 16 Sep 07, 3:19 p.m.

I am alright for the time being, but am watching the trends carefully. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of $$ (or bahtski ) so changing retirement plans in mid-stream is tricky and costly and provides few options.

One of the big issues is the cheap broadband in LOS. It is absolutely essential for business, and one of the things that made me disqualify Cambodia (and Laos) as options a few years ago was lack of and/or prohibitive expense of good internet access. I assume that Cambodia and Laos will come along eventually, and I imagine Malaysia is already there. Any updates about broadband options in Cambodia (or elsewhere) at present?

Aloha,

Rex

[LivinLOS]

For every one that leaves, four come in to take their place.

I think you should take a look at Pattaya, its the quietest i have ever known it. Even bars are shutting up early as they have no customers. Many many bars for sale.

Even some builders have stopped there projects because houses are NOT selling (confirmed by property developer i know)

Inst that standard low season cycles tho ??

Houses not selling I will give you tho.. The market is really tough to get anything sold..

[Two Roads]

[

The only problem with your theory is that expats (retirees over 50) have been the least affected by the new visa regulations.

This is the issue I'm trying to understand. If you're over 50, have sufficient monthly income and a Thai wife what exactly has changed recently to cause all the apparent concern.

I read through the messages and understand the general sentiment, particularly for those below 50 and/or without sufficient income, but what is the concern regarding retirement if you meet what I understood to be the required critieria??

What has changed??

[LivinLOS]

Whats changes is..

If you have a non Thai wife over 50.. Then you now need 1.6mil in the bank.. If you have a non Thai wife under 50, she has no long stay visa at all !!

Its not the married to a Thai person that the changes really have much effect on.

[lopburi3]

Two things have happened for those over age 50 with non Thai spouse. If spouse is over age 50 they now have to maintain another 800k baht Thai account for retirement (at the same time that the new 3 month rule is taking effect) so this means 1.6 million baht in very low interest accounts for an extended period every year. A nightmare for many.

If they can not meet that requirement, or the spouse is under age 50, the spouse will have to make 90 day border runs after obtaining a multi entry non immigrant O visa and do this for the remainder of there life.

[tropo]

If they can not meet that requirement, or the spouse is under age 50, the spouse will have to make 90 day border runs after obtaining a multi entry non immigrant O visa and do this for the remainder of there life.

Lopburi3, a question.

If someone on a retirement visa's non-Thai spouse is under 50, would it be easy to obtain a non-O visa in Penang, Singapore or Laos?

[lopburi3]

If will likely be up to the case the person can present to the Consulate as this is new. The authorization for visa is clearly there in the Immigration act and single entry has been easy to obtain with the expectation it will be extended on now withdrawn rules. I suspect that there may be a period of uncertainty until Consulates understand that this old method is not viable anymore and can adapt so if I were doing this now I would try the normal honorary Consulate places that are known to issue multi entry visas if after making a call to visa services in Penang I was told it was not available there.

[gdhm]

...If our presence here amounts to even a small blip on the national radar screen, it is more likely perceived as an invasion of unknown intruders...

Good point BUT if that is the case why is so much time spent by Immigration on us and on ever changing rules and regulations. It not as if Thailand isn't battling with problems on all sides at present.

We must to be more important than we think (even if for the wrong reasons) but I can't figure out how such a small percentage of pensioners are perceived as so problematical. After all we can't own land, we can only have 1 year Visas max, we are not permitted to work and we are no burden on what tiny Thai Social Welfare system exists.

Regards, Dave

[JR Texas]

...If our presence here amounts to even a small blip on the national radar screen, it is more likely perceived as an invasion of unknown intruders...

Good point BUT if that is the case why is so much time spent by Immigration on us and on ever changing rules and regulations. It not as if Thailand isn't battling with problems on all sides at present.

We must to be more important than we think (even if for the wrong reasons) but I can't figure out how such a small percentage of pensioners are perceived as so problematical. After all we can't own land, we can only have 1 year Visas max, we are not permitted to work and we are no burden on what tiny Thai Social Welfare system exists.

Regards, Dave

Maybe they are afraid because some of us have a brain and can think freely and can speak out against injustice. I really think the ruling elite are terrified that the "game" will be exposed and the masses will wake up from a long coma. Ignorance is bliss...........it is the order of the day. Free thinking people are a threat to the status quo. They know that we know...........so to speak. When we look, we look right past all of the surface BS. Maybe that is threatening to them. Or maybe they just do not like foreigners now.

Perhaps it is a male thing. How many years have foreign males been coming to Thailand for "what it has to offer?" For decades. Some of the politicians in office now (and the generals) no doubt grew up with this. Maybe they are just upset about it and have had enough and this is there way to strike back. They have had it with the sexual myths about foreign males.........and the fact that so many of them have been rejected by Thai women.

Whatever the reason, the visa rules are not helping Thailand in any way, shape, or form. If they want females doing other things, they need to empower them with good jobs and better choices in life.......they also need to empower Thai males to make them more attractive to Thai females.........nuff said. Hope this is not offensive......did not mean it that way.

[rexall]

<snip>This is the issue I'm trying to understand. If you're over 50, have sufficient monthly income and a Thai wife what exactly has changed recently to cause all the apparent concern <snip>

Sun 16 Sep 07, 5:54 p.m.

Nothing has changed in any direct or specific sense for the group you refer to. Especially if by "retirement" you do not mean "permanent." It is more a matter of emotional well-being, I think. People, retirees, see this nibble, nibble, nibble at falang status over the past few years, and we cannot help wondering "What's next? When they will come for me?" Psychologically and emotionally, that makes it very difficult to plan for the future with confidence. It makes people reluctant to buy property (even a condo), invest, start businesses, or establish roots for the family. On the other hand, if "retired" simply means that one is age 50, doesn't need to work, and is content to rent for a few years, and then move to another country when asked or forced to, then it is mostly a non-issue, I guess.

Aloha,

Rex

[bully]

Many of my freinds have left, but mostly due to financial difficulties as their overseas investments earn less money in the current economic climate. Still others are leaving becasue of the visa restrictions and many not coming because the welcome mat appears a little frayed.

But where else to go?

Taht's the big question.

Lbya has nice beaches.

Seems like many of us are on board of te same ship,( or Hotel Califonia ) I heard good news about Vietnam. Anyone ther to confirm ?? If OK I go and see myself, if it's allright ... bye bye Thailand. Up to my ears. Bully

[rexall]

Sun 16 Sep 07, 6:33 p.m.

Hi all,

Did I say "Alice in Wonderland" or what? This exchange, just a few minutes ago on the Pattaya4U Yahoogroup is self explanatory:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Sun 16 Sep 07, 6:21 p.m.

Hi Orin,

I hope you are correct. However, I doubt that it was a "hoax." The report was posted on Thaivisa.com by Greg Lange of Sunbelt Asia, a pretty solid source. Of course, he could be mistaken or have been handed erroneous information the same as anyone else.

And another thing, on the Khon Kaen Forum, just today, a member happened to post about his application for a retirement extension in Bangers and being asked for a map. However, and yet another and another thing, although he lives in Isaan, he was told to do his 90 day reporting in Nong Khai, but was also told to return to Bangers next year for renewal. This contradicts another report from Greg around the same time as the one you refer to which was quite specific in stating that expats must now deal only with their local Immigration Office even though they might prefer Bangers or some other place.

Gawd, this place can be nuts sometimes!

Aloha,

Rex

orin ______ wrote:

All:According to the Pattaya City Expats Club, the new immigration rules posted here recently are a hoax. These were: (1) that a non-Thai spouse or dependent had to provide independent qualifications for a visa extension and could not automatically be included in an expat's Retirement Visa extension and (2) that a map showing directions from the applicant's dwelling to the immigration office must be provided.According to the club, checking with the Pattaya Immigration office, no such rules were known by officials there.--Orin

[Firefan]

The info does maybe not move that fast in emmigration. I.e. it will take some time before all offices have been informed, and THEN has been understood and FINALLY filtered down to front end staff, which probably explains that Pattaya office have not heard of it yet.

Of course another reason could be that, as happened before, the initial changes is being changed again after considering the consequences.

Back on subject I fully understand that the many changes is leading to frustration to quite a large group of expats here.

The retirement demand actually means that a (non-Thai) couple will have to prove income of 130,000.- Baht/mth in order to stay(if one does not use the cash in bank method). That is a substantial amount to spend in Thailand for a retired couple and more than triples the requirement for farang married to Thai - couple (40k/mth - but then only 1 visa of course).

Cheers!

Edited September 16, 2007 by Firefan

[Foggy Bottom]

The retirement demand actually means that a (non-Thai) couple will have to prove income of 130,000.- Baht/mth in order to stay(if one does not use the cash in bank method). That is a substantial amount to spend in Thailand for a retired couple and more than triples the requirement for farang married to Thai - couple (40k/mth - but then only 1 visa of course).

Cheers!

Unfortunately not communicated frequently, or clearly, by government or enforcement agencies is the rationale that the monthly income requirement is intended to assure the visa-holder that they can maintain a similar lifestyle in Thailand, to that which they would enjoy in their own country.

The monthly income requirement is not (and supposedly never has) been intended to be indicative of what a foreigner NEEDS to live on in Thailand. We all know people claiming to live on 10K Baht per month (or less) but how many who relay such stories have ever done it themselves? These claims are part of the foundation for the complaints about excessive income requirements for visa purposes.

I know personally, that it is possible to live here on 3K Baht a month (I did it for 8 consecutive months quite a few years back, and that 3K included the cost of 30 day VOE bounces) - it's neither comfortable nor pleasant, but it is possible if you "go native".

The government stated minimums are intended to be based on assessment of your home country national average incomes and cost of living, then applying a modifier for local conditions here, to arrive at a minimum that ensures your quality of life does not suffer while living here. If you are hel_l-bent on living on less, or forced to by circumstances, then you are only cheating yourself and not the visa regulations.

I agree with the principle and the concept of the minimum required income rule, I disagree with its implementation, but that is another story. Let me say only that if they want to enforce minimum monthly incomes for retirees, self-employed, and investor-operators, they should also enforce it for Thai employers using foreign staff - especially within the state education system.

Gaz

Edited September 16, 2007 by Gaz Chiangmai

[pointofview]

The Thai apologists in this or other forums will forever deny that this country is sinking into a world of xenophobia, greed and corruption. So let's stop trying to convince them of otherwise.

I do know of 3 honest, hardworking farangs, with families, leaving Thailand. Within a 3 block radius of my village. Those are the only statistics I can offer you.

The stares, snares, double pricing, corruption, visa rules that are not followed from govt. office to govt. office, insencere smiles... etc etc. It gets old.

I came here to escape the rat race. But being treated like a rat, that is a different matter altogether.

My son is a partner in a Bangkok law firm (which he set up) and he just manages to stay abreast of the visa regulations. However, he does not give advice regarding visa matters as there are few rules which can be interpretated with clarity. and what may be unclear today will surely become even more unclear tommorow!