Callan/walen Ed Visa

[MKAsok]

Wasn't sure whether to start a new topic about this, but seeing as it concerns both Walen and an ED visa issue, here seemed as good a place as any. Mods, please feel free to move to anywhere you see fit.

I decided a couple of months or so back - somewhat luckily in hindsight considering recent reports here from Penang etc. - that TVs were looking far too tenuous for my liking and to do something more permanent. I wanted to improve my Thai anyway, and the Walen deal looked pretty good (for the record, I didn't find the initial (website) advertising misleading in any way - this was in September. I found it fairly self-evident that the price was for the Thai lessons and nothing to do with the visa or any associated costs - the visa was, an admittedly huge, bonus, but a bonus nonetheless). Went down to Walen, paid my money, met Mr Walen and some of his charming staff briefly, and they sorted out all the necessary paperwork in a couple of weeks.

Fast forward to now. I'm in London for a couple of weeks, in possession of my 1-year (multiple entry - yes, I know, wait for it...) Non-ED visa issued by the Thai Embassy, London and looking forward to getting back home to BKK next week. Having subsequently looked over the various posts regarding the ED visa and private Thai language schools, I now realise it was fairly pointless paying the extra 50 quid for the ME visa, since the visa is 'protected' (assuming you leave and re-enter) not by being a ME, but by the re-entry permissions issued at immigration in BKK. I know, should have done my homework better, but I just assumed, if you wanted to leave the country during the period of the visa (once it had been extended from the initial 90 days at entry to a year at immigration - I was unaware of the rule change to 90 days when I got the visa), something I will almost certainly have to do at some point, you needed a ME visa.

Anyway, my question is this: I understand that under the old rules (when the visa was extended by one year), any ME visa would somehow 'revert' to being a SE visa and you would have to get re-entry permissions every time you needed to leave and re-enter the Kingdom. However: under the new rules (visa extended 90 days at a time), does my ME still revert to a SE, once I apply for the first extension at Immigration? I.E. Do I need to get re-entry permissions which will 'preserve' my visa and extensions, or can I forget about any extension and simply treat the visa as a regular ME and get a new 90 day stamp when I re-enter, despite having received an extension already at immigration. I know this seems a little convoluted. I can hear people asking, why not just choose one way or another? Either stay in the country and get 90 day extensions (yes, I will be attending school regularly) or do border runs every 90 days and get extensions this way, but I probably won't need to leave for 6 months and have no overwhelming desire for a border run before then, so would certainly prefer to opt for the first extension, at least, from Suan Phlu. It would then seem a pointless waste of time and money to get further extensions, re-entry permits etc. after the first six months when I'll probably need to make one or two trips out of the country anyway. Anyone have any idea about this issue? Thanks...

mk

[bkkguy1970]

as I understand it you can mix extensions and entries with your visa with no problems, a single entry visa would require re-entry permits but you would not with your multiple entry visa

a single entry non-ed visa is valid for three months, you must enter the country before the expiry date on the visa. when you enter the country the visa is marked as used and you are given a 90 day permission to stay. you can extend that permission to stay by 90 days at Immigration in Bangkok (for a fee) with the required paperwork from the school and can keep extending for the duration or the course. if you leave the country the remaining days of your permission to stay are cancelled and you visa is already used so you would need to apply for a new visa before coming back to Thailand. however if you get a re-entry permit (for a fee) before leaving then when you return you will be given permission to stay till your previous permission date and that permission can be extended as above

on the other hand a multiple entry non-ed visa is valid for a year, you can enter the country multiple times before the expiry date on the visa. when you enter the country an entry is marked on the visa and you are given a 90 day permission to stay. you can extend that permission to stay by 90 days at Immigration in Bangkok as above, this will have no effect on the validity or future use of the visa. if you leave the country the remaining days of your permission to stay are cancelled but your visa is still valid for another entry up to the expiry date of the visa so there is no need to get a re-entry permit. when you arrive back in Thailand the visa is marked with another entry and you are given a 90 day permission to stay. again you can extend that permission to stay by 90 days as above and this will have no effect on the status of your visa. you can continue to exit and re-enter till the expiry date on the visa, and continue to extend till the end date of the course.

so get extensions on your permission to stay till you want to leave the country, no need for a re-entry permit, just make sure you return before the expiry date on your visa!

as I say this is as I understand it - hopefully one of the experts will make corrections as needed!

bkkguy

[MKAsok]

as I understand it you can mix extensions and entries with your visa with no problems, a single entry visa would require re-entry permits but you would not with your multiple entry visa

a single entry non-ed visa is valid for three months, you must enter the country before the expiry date on the visa. when you enter the country the visa is marked as used and you are given a 90 day permission to stay. you can extend that permission to stay by 90 days at Immigration in Bangkok (for a fee) with the required paperwork from the school and can keep extending for the duration or the course. if you leave the country the remaining days of your permission to stay are cancelled and you visa is already used so you would need to apply for a new visa before coming back to Thailand. however if you get a re-entry permit (for a fee) before leaving then when you return you will be given permission to stay till your previous permission date and that permission can be extended as above

on the other hand a multiple entry non-ed visa is valid for a year, you can enter the country multiple times before the expiry date on the visa. when you enter the country an entry is marked on the visa and you are given a 90 day permission to stay. you can extend that permission to stay by 90 days at Immigration in Bangkok as above, this will have no effect on the validity or future use of the visa. if you leave the country the remaining days of your permission to stay are cancelled but your visa is still valid for another entry up to the expiry date of the visa so there is no need to get a re-entry permit. when you arrive back in Thailand the visa is marked with another entry and you are given a 90 day permission to stay. again you can extend that permission to stay by 90 days as above and this will have no effect on the status of your visa. you can continue to exit and re-enter till the expiry date on the visa, and continue to extend till the end date of the course.

so get extensions on your permission to stay till you want to leave the country, no need for a re-entry permit, just make sure you return before the expiry date on your visa!

as I say this is as I understand it - hopefully one of the experts will make corrections as needed!

bkkguy

bkkguy - that's great news. Thanks for taking the time for providing such a clear and valuable reply. Really appreciate that...

mk

[Canada]

My 2 cents....I've always looked at that banner thinking that the school would not be much of a school, clearly using VISA as it's attraction. I am currently in a visa bind. If you look at recent posts on another thread, you'll see what it is. I have been following this thread and have read every post.

This method of staying here seems very reasonable to me. I am interested in learning Thai. I went to another school for a couple of months and learned by another method. Great school. But I have very difficult time understanding Thais, and my vocabulary is limited. I dream that one day I could read Thai. This sounds like a very good method. If I could read, I could teach myself easier as well. And imagine...going down the street looking for a store and not having to look at the contents to know what they sell. I could read signs....what a concept.

Mr MacWalen has answer questions and concerns politey.

As far as his marketing strategy....great idea. Target people like me on a site like this.

Pricing seems reasonable compared with the school I used to learn at. More expensive, but, a one year course and fee which enables me to qualify for the visa, and I could learn to read. I think the higher price is worth it.

Flexible in terms of time spent studying at school.

I am not sure what the beef is. 1900 baht every 3 months??? come on... that's about 65 dollars Canadian......which is worth more than USD now...( had to throw that in). 20 bucks a month....maybe you should go back home and earn some money. The rules changed.....oh well..... As my grandfather would say.

Some of the posters here have been pretty impolite. Read your post in a week or so. Listen to how you sound. Maybe you could find and enroll in a course on maintaining a positive perspective on life.

I'll be off to the school of Walen to get a visa....oh ya....and learn to read. "Laughing as I go"....(to the tune of Jingle Bells)

[cali4995]

Canada, if you're working illegally in Thailand, and able to do so by obtaining an "ED"

visa, this is probably not an advisable course of action for most other members.

"I have been teaching in remote Thailand now only for a couple of months. I am a

native speaker, however I am not legal, nor qualified as a teacher."

While perhaps native English speakers can understand the fine print where it exists,

we've already had one member who apparently didn't understand and was in a serious

overstay condition. No-one has a problem with those wishing to advance their studies

of Thai culture, but the commercialization of the visa process has already had negative

affects for the masses of individual travellers. It is the emphasis of the advertising

which I fear in the end, will eventually cause even more changes in the system.

[WilliamIV]

as I understand it you can mix extensions and entries with your visa with no problems, a single entry visa would require re-entry permits but you would not with your multiple entry visa

a single entry non-ed visa is valid for three months, you must enter the country before the expiry date on the visa. when you enter the country the visa is marked as used and you are given a 90 day permission to stay. you can extend that permission to stay by 90 days at Immigration in Bangkok (for a fee) with the required paperwork from the school and can keep extending for the duration or the course. if you leave the country the remaining days of your permission to stay are cancelled and you visa is already used so you would need to apply for a new visa before coming back to Thailand. however if you get a re-entry permit (for a fee) before leaving then when you return you will be given permission to stay till your previous permission date and that permission can be extended as above

on the other hand a multiple entry non-ed visa is valid for a year, you can enter the country multiple times before the expiry date on the visa. when you enter the country an entry is marked on the visa and you are given a 90 day permission to stay. you can extend that permission to stay by 90 days at Immigration in Bangkok as above, this will have no effect on the validity or future use of the visa. if you leave the country the remaining days of your permission to stay are cancelled but your visa is still valid for another entry up to the expiry date of the visa so there is no need to get a re-entry permit. when you arrive back in Thailand the visa is marked with another entry and you are given a 90 day permission to stay. again you can extend that permission to stay by 90 days as above and this will have no effect on the status of your visa. you can continue to exit and re-enter till the expiry date on the visa, and continue to extend till the end date of the course.

so get extensions on your permission to stay till you want to leave the country, no need for a re-entry permit, just make sure you return before the expiry date on your visa!

as I say this is as I understand it - hopefully one of the experts will make corrections as needed!

bkkguy

Is that Correct? >>

with the required paperwork from the school and can keep extending for the duration or the course

According to Walen's website ... After one year you must leave the Kingdom and obtain a NEW visa.

Bill

[MacWalen]

If stuents enroll in a one year course they will be able to extend their visas for one year, if after one year they decide to continue their studies they might need to leave the country to obtain a new visa but we are not sure as this has not been tested yet.

We are sure they can continue their studies but we are not sure if the MoE would issue a new extension letter or if they would require the student to obtain a new visa. It would be great if students could continue their studies for a second and third year without obtaining new visas and simply extending the first visa. I wish I knew the correct answer at this time but as there are two departments involved (MoE and immigration) it hard to say that it will really be possible. In a few month's time I will be able to answer that question better.

It is like with this changing the visa status at the immigration, in theory possible in practise people have to go outside to get the visa.

If there are some readers who were able to extend their ED visas for the second year based on studying Thai at a private language school without obtaining a new visa please share with us your experience!

Walen School, Mac

Edited November 14, 2008 by macwalen

[spectrum]

Hello macwalen,

I am interested in knowing a little more about your school.

Firstly, may I ask about your background & qualifications in education, and that of your teachers ?

Secondly, I have read the information on your website and am interested in the methodology you use. Is it similar to the Berlitz method ? It seems the students repeat aloud after the teacher/do Question-Answer drills while looking at Thai script in their textbook. Is that correct ? Could you elaborate a little on what happens in the classrooms and explain the pedagogical basis of that in simple terms ?

Thank you.

Edited November 17, 2007 by spectrum

[MacWalen]

Hello macwalen,

I am interested in knowing a little more about your school.

Firstly, may I ask about your background & qualifications in education, and that of your teachers ?

Secondly, I have read the information on your website and am interested in the methodology you use. Is it similar to the Berlitz method ? It seems the students repeat aloud after the teacher/do Question-Answer drills while looking at Thai script in their textbook. Is that correct ? Could you elaborate a little on what happens in the classrooms and explain the pedagogical basis of that in simple terms ?

Thank you.

I have been teaching the Callan Method for over 7 years. I train my Thai teachers myself. I am looking for a good voice and a pleasant personality, good looks are also welcome. Most students are very happy with our teachers.

The method is similar to Callan, I do not know much about Berlitz. The way it is delivered is very much the same as Callan. It is a question-answer format. Students learn to read right from the first lesson, sound and then the shape of words. We teach to read words rather than just letters, we also teach the Thai alphabet but it is not necessary to be able to read Thai. I know it sounds hard to believe but it's true, many students can read Thai quite well now not knowing the alphabet.

We repeat, repeat and repeat until students know it, and if they still cannot speak and do not remember we repeat more. The method is based on a natural learing process. On our website there is more information about the method. We also offer a free demonstration of the method at our school to everyone interested.

Some readers believe that we only help with ED visas but I would like to assure everyone that we also know how to teach Thai!

Hope it helps.

Walen School, Mac

[Canada]

cali4995,

yes, I agree with you on this point. I also wouldn't recommend doing what I am to anyone...(working illegally). The truth of the work permit problem is that the school promised me a work permit with their knowledge of my lack of qualifications while I was still in Canada. I had been back there for 2 weeks and they got serious about their job offer, promising many things, knowing from the outset that my only qualifications are that I am a native speaker and the color of my skin is correct. They were in a real bind as their Filipino teacher up and left, and this is my village. I trusted them. My mistake. I stopped what I had in motion there and came here for the girl. Once I was here again, they then told me that a work permit was impossible, but I could work, and that there would be no problem doing this. I opted to stay. Had they been straight with me, I would not have come. This is not how I like to live.. When I was a kid I did life like this. So ....my visa has turned into a problem.

The idea of continuing to teach in remote Thailand and studying in Bkk is not really feasible and kind of ridiculous actually. I am not happy with my employment for several reasons; one being their way of doing business with me, another being the students. They really need a babysitter, not a teacher. I am unqualified to teach, let alone teach students who don't want to learn, refuse to learn, but keep coming to class and disturbing the other 60% that do want to learn.

So Cali... I appreciate your interest in my situation. I do think however that you have posted that exerpt from one of my posts in an attempt to discredit me for some reason. You seem to be a person looking for a target. Try to find a legitimate one worth shooting at would ya? After looking further than the advertising banner for Walen, I don't think that is one either. I am sure there are some out there to be had. Good luck.

I have edit this post because of typing errors that I missed, and to apologise for being off topic. Sorry.

Edited November 17, 2007 by Canada

[cali4995]

Canada, if the school wanted to provide you with the correct documentation to work

legally, I believe they could do so irregardless of your qualifications. Perhaps under

a different job title. By your own admission, you are working illegally, you only

discredited yourself. I'm sure you're not the only one working or seeking to work

on an ED visa because the school isn't interested in providing proper work permits.

That seems to be a common trend in Thailand which is a shame because I'm sure

there are many like yourself who mean well and could make a useful contribution

but are discouraged from doing so. I'm sorry but the banner is misleading.

[Canada]

yes, the banner is misleading.

Do you know, or does anyone, how the school could provide a work permit for me? This was a topic up for discussion at a meeting this week, as I put their list of promises on the table in front of them.

Now we are really off topic.

[cali4995]

Canada, I think there are variations in the job titles which might allow for

the possibility of a work permit. Maybe it's instructor or consultant or

assistant. If you're willing to work so hard for what I can only imagine

are such meager earnings, to contribute to the local community, where

your services are in such demand, it doesn't seem to be asking much that

they would provide you with the correct papers so you can do so legally. I

know language coaches often get a bad rap, and some of it really isn't fair.

On Thaivisa there is a teaching in Thailand forum, if you posted your

question there I'm sure one of the old-hands could perhaps outline the

procedure that might be of assistance to you or the school. There is one

thing about the Thai system and that is it's flexible. If they want to do it,

they can find a way to get it done. Everytime I go on a visa-run there are

2-3 people on the bus in this compromised position, because the school

doesn't want to furnish them with the appropriate paperwork, they don't

want to incur the expense, or they've just got in the habit of taking

advantage of people. The only person taking the risk is the foreigner, and

if something goes wrong, despite the insistencies that it never will, you're

going to be on your own. Sincerely hope it works out for you.

Edited November 18, 2007 by cali4995

[MacWalen]

yes, the banner is misleading.

Do you know, or does anyone, how the school could provide a work permit for me? This was a topic up for discussion at a meeting this week, as I put their list of promises on the table in front of them.

Now we are really off topic.

Which banner?

[Canada]

Your advertising banner on this website. Technically, he's right. If you look no further than the banner or ask no questions, it looks like a one year visa, not 4-90 day visas, and there is an initial visa run required to get it all going, and the additonal costs associated with the extensions plus the course, add up to more than the advertised rate.....if you look no further than the banner or ask don't ask any questions.

I see no problem with your average guy figuring it out. I think that a lot of companies use "catchy"prases to get someone interested for whatever reason.....it doesn't really matter...the point is to get them to look into it further and consider it. Well done.

cali4995,

after I posted the remark about you seeming to be a person looking for a target, I read a lot of your posts on other threads dating back to last year. Actually you seem to be a helpful guy. Maybe a helpful guy looking for a target....

Edited November 18, 2007 by Canada

[MacWalen]

I am thinking about it, so how would you advertise?

Only 35,200 Baht per year! We charge you only 29,500 the rest you pay to the immigration!

Only 35,200 Baht per year! All extensions included!

Only 35,200 Baht per year! On average 2,935 Baht per month! No visa runs required!

Only 29,500 Baht per year! Plus 5,700 Baht for the visa extensions!

Only 29,500 Baht per year! 5,700 Baht extension fees are not included!

Any suggestions how we can improve our ad?

Or maybe just - hm....... Only 2,935 Baht per month! But then they will say we advertise a small amount and charge for the whole year.

If you have a better idea let me know. 2,935 Baht per month (60 Euro) plus learing Thai for a year and no visa runs is not too bad.

Walen School, Mac

[bkkguy1970]

Any suggestions how we can improve our ad?

Ed Visa, extendable in Bangkok up to 1 Year

Great Location - 1 minute from BTS Asoke

All Nationalities Eligible

Course Fee 29,500 Baht per year

on the web site give an example of the total cost using current costs of the visa and extensions and the current procedure including that this currently includes one trip to Penang and three trips to Immigration in Bangkok, include a disclaimer that students need to work out actual costs and procedure depending on their individual circumstances and Immigration policy at the time they are studying

bkkguy

[Canada]

I am thinking about it, so how would you advertise?

Only 35,200 Baht per year! We charge you only 29,500 the rest you pay to the immigration!

Only 35,200 Baht per year! All extensions included!

Only 35,200 Baht per year! On average 2,935 Baht per month! No visa runs required!

Only 29,500 Baht per year! Plus 5,700 Baht for the visa extensions!

Only 29,500 Baht per year! 5,700 Baht extension fees are not included!

Any suggestions how we can improve our ad?

Or maybe just - hm....... Only 2,935 Baht per month! But then they will say we advertise a small amount and charge for the whole year.

If you have a better idea let me know. 2,935 Baht per month (60 Euro) plus learing Thai for a year and no visa runs is not too bad.

Walen School, Mac

It's a good banner. After your potential customer goes past the banner, make it crystal clear, what you will do, and what they must do, including the extra costs for the extensions, including the one trip out for the initial visa. I wouldn't do anything to the banner itself. It is attractive to the eye and to the brain....the price is a good number...less than 30,000. Inform them of the extra cost once they go past they banner. IMHO

[Canada]

Actually, having just browsed your site again, it couldn't be much more clear. Click on "Student Visa"and it is all there in black. One thing that is not entirely clear is that you need to get this visa out of country. The visa page does say, "on arrival, you will be permitted....", but you have to interpret that before arrival you need to depart.

[cali4995]

You could maybe try advertising Thai language/culture lessons with a subtitle that education visas were available for

those who studied full-time. Instead of the time-share sales approach to running a language school.

[jetzie]

1 question here for Mac

my gf that's currently your student in the school. got some questions about the ED visa cuz if by any chance she wishes to return to her hometown for homevisit (hometown's burma)

normal route is via the friendship bridge @ tachilek, but since now she is holding onto a ED visa(single entry i suppose) she would have to get a re-entry permit before crossing, but my question is this: re-entry permit allowed for overland crossing ? if not, how ?

thanks

[lopburi3]

Yes re-entry permits are usable for overland travel.

[jetzie]

Yes re-entry permits are usable for overland travel.

Thanks! so prior to crossing the tachillek bridge, should she go to the maesai immigration or bkk 1? she's studying in bkk and she is Shan.

maesai immigration able to issue?

[lopburi3]

Maisai Immigration can issue but I would do in Bangkok just to have everything ready and no chance of a last minute mistake.

[jetzie]

Cheers Lopburi3

[MacWalen]

Student party for all Walen and Callan students on December 21, in Sukhumvit soi 22, Larry's place, about 50 meters into the soi, starting 8.30 pm till late, 2 pints of beer on the school. We expect about 200 people together with our teachers, staff and students. Do not miss it! Should be a good night.

Walen School, Mac

[LivinLOS]

I am thinking about it, so how would you advertise?

Only 35,200 Baht per year! We charge you only 29,500 the rest you pay to the immigration!

Only 35,200 Baht per year! All extensions included!

Only 35,200 Baht per year! On average 2,935 Baht per month! No visa runs required!

Only 29,500 Baht per year! Plus 5,700 Baht for the visa extensions!

Only 29,500 Baht per year! 5,700 Baht extension fees are not included!

Any suggestions how we can improve our ad?

Or maybe just - hm....... Only 2,935 Baht per month! But then they will say we advertise a small amount and charge for the whole year.

If you have a better idea let me know. 2,935 Baht per month (60 Euro) plus learing Thai for a year and no visa runs is not too bad.

Walen School, Mac

How about being honest and leaving the issues and items outside of your control outside of your advertising ??

"One year language courses for 29.500 - Visa application assistance provided" Would make a lot of sense to me and certainly stop some of the very obvious visa selling connotations with your current technique.

[MacWalen]

LivinLOS, thanks for your suggestion. So far nobody had a visa problem studying at our school so you cannot say we are not honest. Perhaps you should visit us, see our school and talk to our staff to see that everything is in order. You can also have a chat with our students and ask them if they feel that we are dishonest.

Being dishonest is actually a very dumb way of doing business so what would I have to gain by being dishonest? Getting one student and losing 100? This is not the way we do business regardless of what you think. We take good care of every student as we believe that many will study with us not just one year but 2,3,4 or even 5 years in some cases.

Walen School, Mac

[LivinLOS]

I dont mean your service is not an honest one.. But do you really think there would be as much posted about your advertising if it didnt come over badly to many of us ??

Lets be honest you cannot control the immigration dept ? You cannot control what new policies immigration may implement in the next year (as you have already been caught out with the 'new' requirements for 90 day extensions) so why 'sell' that ??

Truth in advertising would mean you should state what you can do, you can assist people with thier ED visa application as per the current visa regs.. You cannot guarantee anything for the next year, you only hope that roughly the status quo can continue and hope they dont slap on too many new costs on that you pass to the students. You were (of course) very quick to point out the visa process was outside your control and the students responsibility when they started asking for the 4x1900 amounts of money (which I personally think of as hardly worth bothering about) so it cant cut both ways.

To me your advertising smacks of barnham and bailey grandstanding, and immediately lowers my impression of your school from "possible language tuition" to "pay money to exploit visa regs loophole". Just my 2c and feelings, you did ask for suggestions on improving it after all.

[MacWalen]

My experience (and understanding) is that you can only get a 1 year ED visa (or 1 year ED visa extension) if you attend a government university, not a private language school. But I am happy to be corrected on this

Simon

They still issue 1 year multiple entry non-ED visas to students at private language schools, this is an example of one issued to our student, this is already after the 1st of September when they have limited extensions to 90 days at a time. Hope it makes it a bit clearer Khun Simon. One year ED visa extension is not the same as the visa itself.

Regards

Walen School, Mac