Do You Think Thailand Is A Kleptocracy?

[Jingthing]

A character in the recent best selling novel BANGKOK HAUNTS asserts that every long term expat in Thailand eventually realizes that Thailand is a kleptocracy. Do you agree?

klep·toc·ra·cy

NOUN:

pl. klep·toc·ra·cies

A government characterized by rampant greed and corruption.

ALSO from Wiki:

A kleptocracy (sometimes cleptocracy) (root: klepto+cratein = rule by thieves) is a government that extends the personal wealth and political power of government officials and the ruling class (collectively, kleptocrats) at the expense of the population.

Edited October 20, 2007 by Jingthing

[soundman]

No.

In Thailand power & postion are the ultimate goals. Money & corruption are a by-product of what it takes to be & stay in power.

Some might argue that people seek power to attain wealth, however, after lengthy discussions with middle to high level politicians I am aquianted with, I do not believe it to be the case.

Soundman.

[londonthai]

power and wealth go hand in hand, whether in thailand or anywhere else - some already rich are at power to maintain the status quo, defend their wealth, some others are climbing there to ger rich, and it's not by the wages but by corruption or outright crime.

I would say every government is kleptocratic - their purpose is to defend the ruling class/rich from the rest of the population and at their expense

[FarangNoi21]

every government on earth fits this definition, perhaps because governments are made of individuals and all individuals have their own interest at heart.

new stuff for you huh?

Edited October 20, 2007 by FarangNoi21

[Scott]

Not only do they allow the stealing of wealth from their own people, but they extend it onward to any idea from other countries as well--such as copyright violations, which seem to be enforceable if it is a Thai copyright, but not if it's from other countries.

Greed is certainly not unique to Thailand, it's part of the human condition, but it is important that laws be in place and that they be strong enough and enforced to prevent massive amounts of greed from encroaching on every aspect of society.

[Mobi]

I can't remember where or when, but this word has cropped up before to describe Thailand, and as the proverbial "long term expat", IMHO it is a totally apt description.

Power, position, money and corruption are completely intertwined and they all feed and prosper in the same cesspit.

[britmaveric]

No question about it, YES

[keemapoot]

The key difference between Thailand and most of our native countries is that there are few checks and balances that contain the dark side. Because there's a conflict in every human heart between the rational and the irrational, between good and evil. And good does not always triumph. Sometimes the Dark Side overcomes what Lincoln called 'the better angels of our nature.'

[YangYaiEric]

A character in the recent best selling novel BANGKOK HAUNTS asserts that every long term expat in Thailand eventually realizes that Thailand is a kleptocracy. Do you agree?

klep·toc·ra·cy

NOUN:

pl. klep·toc·ra·cies

A government characterized by rampant greed and corruption.

ALSO from Wiki:

A kleptocracy (sometimes cleptocracy) (root: klepto+cratein = rule by thieves) is a government that extends the personal wealth and political power of government officials and the ruling class (collectively, kleptocrats) at the expense of the population.

This is a No-Brainer! Having money is EVERYTHING in LOS; it doesn't matter HOW you get it, morally or otherwise. There is no Social Security Systems here as is prevalent in most western countries, so almost EVERYONE is out to make as much as they can, using what-ever means that they can. Thats the way it is, folks

[siam-i-am]

No.

In Thailand power & postion are the ultimate goals. Money & corruption are a by-product of what it takes to be & stay in power.

Some might argue that people seek power to attain wealth, however, after lengthy discussions with middle to high level politicians I am aquianted with, I do not believe it to be the case.

Soundman.

So would everybody else on planet Zog. I beg to differ.

[lazeeboy]

No.

In Thailand power & postion are the ultimate goals. Money & corruption are a by-product of what it takes to be & stay in power.

Some might argue that people seek power to attain wealth, however, after lengthy discussions with middle to high level politicians I am aquianted with, I do not believe it to be the case.

Soundman.

So would everybody else on planet Zog. I beg to differ.

dog eat dog ,the more money the more power .

[tijnebijn]

there is only one anwer , yes , the other possiblity also should be yes .

Surprises me there were some no votes .............

[samran]

No.

In Thailand power & postion are the ultimate goals. Money & corruption are a by-product of what it takes to be & stay in power.

Some might argue that people seek power to attain wealth, however, after lengthy discussions with middle to high level politicians I am aquianted with, I do not believe it to be the case.

Soundman.

Soundman, welcome to the world of losing battles based on speaking to people who actually know, rather than those who read cheap novels and have over enthused imaginations.

power and position are the goals, even if all they get is a 20,000 baht per month salary at the end of it. Have seen it many, many times.

85% of government workers simply are not in any position to extract money (and most wouldn't anyway). The rest probably are, but quite a few still don't. It is a power game, and at the higher levels, money greases the wheels to be sure.

So what proof do we have that Thailand isn't a Kleptocracy, but a more than average corrupt country? For starters we have Cambo, Philipines, Indonesia, Burma and to an extent, China, which are out and out Kleptocracies which we can compare Thailand to. We also have three decades now of Thai economic growth...and distribution of wealth....to show that there is a growing middle class. It is still going to take 2 to 3 more generations to be a more evenly split share of the wealth in Thailand, but that day will come. If you compare Thailand in 1980 to what it is today, you'll see what I mean.

[qualtrough]

Bad, but could be worse. Reminds me of a story that goes something like this:

An African leader was admiring the home of a Thai leader. The African asked him how he could afford such a nice mansion, and the Thai pointed out the window to the tollways, buildings, port structures in the distance, winked, and said "10%". Later the Thai leader had the opportunity of visiting his friend in Africa. The African leader had a palatial residence the likes of which he had never seen before. He asked the African leader how he could afford such a palace. The African leader pointed out the window to a view filled will shanties and mud paths stretching to the horizon. He looked at his Thai friend, winked, and said "100%!"

On another note, while not condoning corruption here, we should not forget that at the higher levels there is great corruption in the US and the UK. US taxpayers are being bilked for millions if not billions in Iraq by companies getting no-bid deals, etc. & etc. The UK has also been involved in all kinds of corrupt deals involving military contractors. I won't even go into the kinds of things that go on in cities like Chicago, etc. Before we cast stones we might want to clean up our act a little more.

Edited October 20, 2007 by qualtrough

[Mobi]

No.

In Thailand power & postion are the ultimate goals. Money & corruption are a by-product of what it takes to be & stay in power.

Some might argue that people seek power to attain wealth, however, after lengthy discussions with middle to high level politicians I am aquianted with, I do not believe it to be the case.

Soundman.

Soundman, welcome to the world of losing battles based on speaking to people who actually know, rather than those who read cheap novels and have over enthused imaginations.

power and position are the goals, even if all they get is a 20,000 baht per month salary at the end of it. Have seen it many, many times.

85% of government workers simply are not in any position to extract money (and most wouldn't anyway). The rest probably are, but quite a few still don't. It is a power game, and at the higher levels, money greases the wheels to be sure.

So what proof do we have that Thailand isn't a Kleptocracy, but a more than average corrupt country? For starters we have Cambo, Philipines, Indonesia, Burma and to an extent, China, which are out and out Kleptocracies which we can compare Thailand to. We also have three decades now of Thai economic growth...and distribution of wealth....to show that there is a growing middle class. It is still going to take 2 to 3 more generations to be a more evenly split share of the wealth in Thailand, but that day will come. If you compare Thailand in 1980 to what it is today, you'll see what I mean.

You're talking about civil servants.

I would say the the definition of governemnt in this instance refers to the people who run Thailand - the elected (or in the current scenario 'appointed' politicians) who have positions of power in the cabinet and as heads of government departments.

Having said that, it is also fact that most - if not all- SENIOR civil servants are also corrupt.

Whichever way you look at it Thailand is a kleptocracy. I wouldn't like to say whether it is worse or better than other countries in the region, (and in any event that is not relevant to the discussion), but Thailand certainly always scores very high in any kind of survey measuring endemic corruption.

[keemapoot]

I'm sort of sorry to see Samran always sticking up for the Thai side and without much backup. However, in this case, I'm afraid the majority is correct.

[samran]

mobi, I think you are right in that many (but I don't think all) ministries and govt departments have the system where your successors pay you, and hence you spend the rest of the tenure as balat krasuang recouping your losses. But having seen it close up, there is equal amounts of empire building going on, purely for power purposes as well. Less to do with money, more to with getting ones policy agenda up at various points through ones career.

And money politics for politicians, we know how that works.

My point was along the lines of qualtrough's little story, in which Thailand is far from your average African country, and while it has some not so small problems, isn't causing it to continually go backwards, The Philippines is a classic case.

In the west though, it just works the other way around. You stay clean during your poltical career, and then jump ship to go work for a merchant bank as a 'consultant'. The same merchant bank which happened to do a fair share of the deals when you were in office.

[kat]

Some people are straying away from the definition provided by the OP and conjuring up their own ideas of Kleptocracy.

The question in the OP was, is Thailand's government characterized by rampant greed and corruption?

The answer has to be unequivocally yes.

Yes, and to expound on your answer: ... to extend personal power and wealth .....

The answer is yes, yes, and unequivocally YES. This is an undeniable and indisputable fact which I'm not going to waste my time arguing, because it is amply apparent and accessible in the numerous research, articles, experiences, surveys, and books produced.

[howtoescape]

The African leader pointed out the window to a view filled will shanties and mud paths stretching to the horizon. He looked at his Thai friend, winked, and said "100%!"

The good thing with the African and the Thai leader is that they are both well aware that they are corrupt.

David Blunkett (former secretary of state) bought shares totalling 15000GBP in a company which he in turn put in a trust with his kids as the trustees.

Nothing wrong with this you may think until the company got government contracts from the very department he runs. If memory serves me correctly after being caught out by the media he claimed he wasnt doing anything wrong and there was no conflict of interest. The trust then sold these shares for 250000GBP approx. (corrupt brainless c&%$) Whilst resigning from his post he said and i quote "I have done nothing wrong."

This is the evil corrupt communist c&%$ that is making us all carry id cards that is going to cost 10s of billion of pounds, guess what he is on the board of the company that will bid for the contract.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/idcards/story/0,,2042463,00.html

The Thais could learn a thing or 2 about corruption from this communist regime.

[Mobi]

With respect the subject is about corruption in Thailand - not about comparing it to corruption in other countries.

No one has tried to claim that of corruption doesn't exist in the UK or the USA or wherever, but are those countries kleptocracies? I think not, and it stretches the bounds of credulity to compare a few politicians leaving office in the UK and getting plum jobs in the city, with the rape and pillage of the nation's resources by successive governments in Thailand.

Here, they are all as bad as each other. These days, I doubt if a 'clean' politician would ever get a look in

The wonderful Mr Sondhi who was so instrumental in Thaksin's downfall, has now joined forces with the guy who lost his ownership of TPI and is now hel_l bent on revenge and getting his company back - even if it means he has to be Prime minister to achieve it.

They all want their share of the pie - old money, new money, no money, whoever.

And whether they need the money for power or power to get money is irrelevant. Ultimately they want both.

Edited October 20, 2007 by Mobi

[samran]

PTT, don't you mean TPI?

[Mobi]

PTT, don't you mean TPI?

Don't understand

(Thanks BTW- it's that bloody mad cows disease again )

[skipvice]

The answer is yes, yes, yes. been the same as far back as the 60's as I remember and do not see it changing soon.

[Jingthing]

I guess this is a non-issue then. Almost everyone agrees.

While on the subject, I would like to recommend the excellent genre novels of John Burdett, his latest being Bangkok Haunts. Available at most bookstores in Thailand.

Edited October 20, 2007 by Jingthing

[kat]

The answer is yes, yes, yes. been the same as far back as the 60's as I remember and do not see it changing soon.

Try going a little further back, to say, the Sak Dina period.

[Theyreallrubbish]

This is a country where the entire infrastructure of the political party system is built to channel money out to buy votes to get into a position in government whereby that money and far more can be recovered in what might be a very short period of time in government.

Of course its a kleptocracy. The very structure of how it works makes it impossible to be otherwise.

[rychrde]

Yes.

But isn't everywhere? In the UK (and most of the first world) it is institutionalized - 40% income tax, 11% national insurance tax, another 11% if you have a company, 17.5% sales tax, 200% tax on petrol, and on and on... But when you want something done, best go private and pay again. Probably why we're expats!

Here it is more pay-as-you-go.

So why the question? did you expect a different answer?

[cclub75]

A character in the recent best selling novel BANGKOK HAUNTS asserts that every long term expat in Thailand eventually realizes that Thailand is a kleptocracy. Do you agree?

Definitely.

But 2 comments :

-no need to be a long term expart to understand this.

-there is "scale" issue, on which probably nobody will agree.

For me "kleptocracy" and "corruption" are not exactly not the same.

Kleptocracy is a system, that benefits a small number of people. Then corruption can be seen as less organized, and it affects all the layers of the society (from the very bottom to the top).

So I would say : in Thailand, we have... both. That's the trick, if I may say.

Edited October 20, 2007 by cclub75

[skipvice]

The answer is yes, yes, yes. been the same as far back as the 60's as I remember and do not see it changing soon.

Try going a little further back, to say, the Sak Dina period.

I can't remember that far back, I was not born yet

[kat]

Yes.

But isn't everywhere? In the UK (and most of the first world) it is institutionalized - 40% income tax, 11% national insurance tax, another 11% if you have a company, 17.5% sales tax, 200% tax on petrol, and on and on... But when you want something done, best go private and pay again. Probably why we're expats!

Here it is more pay-as-you-go.

So why the question? did you expect a different answer?

This is a very good point, and one with which I agree. However, there are major differences in the cultural context of development and industrialization which sets SEA apart.

The answer is yes, yes, yes. been the same as far back as the 60's as I remember and do not see it changing soon.

Try going a little further back, to say, the Sak Dina period.

I can't remember that far back, I was not born yet

During the Sak Dina period, the norm was created for civil servants to be paid very little in formal wages because the understanding was that they would be paid through their role as patron in patron/client power relatioships. Also, the deference to power and the acceptance of fate was solidified as a good role model for the *peasant.

*I edited the word poor to peasant, because that is really what we are talking about here: the evolution of a traditional feudal patron/client society into a modern patron/client society.

Edited October 20, 2007 by kat