Pattaya Immigration New Visa Rules Changes

[Andiamo]

Nice one, pontious - very observant!

Edited October 27, 2007 by Andiamo

[Guderian]

I was a victim of credit card fraud last year, through no fault of my own. Nor was it related to my living in Thailand.

I spent many hours over several months trying to get the money back off the credit card company (Barclaycard), and they were not very helpful or sympathetic. They will look for any chance to put the blame on you and avoid paying what was stolen from your account.

I would never give anybody, let alone a bunch of underpaid Thai civil servants, a copy of my credit or debit cards. And since, for a retirement extension, they insist that you have to keep 800K Baht in your savings account which almost always comes with a debit card, does this start to sound suspicious? Maybe, but they would need a PIN, so maybe not.

A year ago, to get my 1 year Non-O in Cardiff, I had to show that I had a UK bank account with sufficient funds in it, and they photocopied the records. They also had my passport photocopied of course, with my signature. I reflected at the time that this was pretty insecure, but what can you do about it?

I don't believe the source of the OP. Not even Thailand is daft enough to insist on that. But if anybody is foolish enough to give Thai immigration copies of their credit cards, front and back, then they should be aware that they will almost certainly be held personally responsible for any credit card fraud after that, whether or not it was related to Thailand.

Please be warned, based upon my own unpleasant personal experiences.

[scotsman]

I am lost. In Jomtien.

Can any TV members who intend to extend their visa this coming week based on 'marriage to a thai national' report back:

If you used a embassy/consul letter to verify all / part of your income did they say you need a stamp from MFA in Bangkok?

If yes would they accept a notarised translation from a passing solicitor in Pattaya?

Did they ask for copies of your ATM / Credit cards?

P

I did go back to pattaya immigration with a notarized copy of my embassy pension letter they did not accept it. I was given a paper with the Mfa address in bangkok in English & Thai and told to go there for a stamp on my letter. You may be able to get a translation shop to send your letter to mfa to get this stamp if the translation shop knows what stamp your suppose to get.

I also agree with other posters that IN NO WAY should we give any atm & credit card details to anyone. I was never asked for this on Friday by any immigration officer so its just a story for now with no facts.

[Gary A]

How do you separate fact from fiction? I can tell you for a FACT that way out here in the boonies of Loei province, I was told (personally) by immigration that I must have a new income verification letter from the US Embassy and it MUST be stamped by MFA in Bangkok. It would appear that at least one immigration big shot in Bangkok has too much time on his hands and spends it making up silly rules that may or may not be enforced depending on how the local immigration office feels on that particular day.

[ignoramus]

A bit more re credit cards and photocopying: several posters have the correct slant on the matter, especially the advice to not provide those magical last 3 check-digits, and certainly not the PIN.

In Sydney, NSW, if not Australia as a whole:

(1) recently a couple of gangs have been caught with hundreds of c/card blanks, from many banks, including o/seas ones. One guy was caught entering Australia with a bunch of them. It's an international scam, and not too uncommon;

(2) at restaurants and shops wise people here don't lose sight of their card/s, and make a point of retaining the carbon copy imprint made by their card;

(3) occasionally crooks here stick attachments onto ATM's which record the desired numbers including, I assume, the PIN. Alternatively, a 'remote' surveillance system is set up to 'record' the PIN;

(4) re the net, the advice from the 'money' people here is to make purchases with a low-limit c/card, or, better still, use a debit card with just enough funds to cover the transaction (topped up when required);

The banks here (and one assumes in most other places) provide telephone numbers to be used in the event of a lost or stolen card, and, as far as I can determine, banks here are liable for losses incurred if the telephone call is made without delay. From what I read and hear the banks here don't quibble about this, unlike the mighty Barclays Bank, as noted in the forum.

[RickFarang]

It seems to the that this is a case of an immigration officer asking for some documentation (in this case, copies of ATM and/or credit cards, possibly after the applicant said that he gets his money via ATM machines.), and then it was presented as a "new requirement."

This Appears to have happened in the past. Immigration officers can ask questions or ask for any documentation that they feel necessary to confirm that the applicant is qualified for the visa.

Just because one applicant is asked for a particular document, that does not become a "NEW REQUIREMENT" for all of us.

[distortedlink]

Sorry, don't know if this should be posted here or in the "Pattaya" forum, but here goes.

I just received this notice in the Pattaya City Expats Club Newsletter - Oct. 21 to Oct 28, 2007:

NEW VISA RULES CHANGES - Pattaya Immigration bureau has introduced the following rules regarding one year Visa's and extensions of Visa's.

Applicants for one year retirement visas must now show and make copies of the back and front of any currently valid ATM or credit card issued in their name. The copies must be signed by the applicant. It does not matter whether the card was issued in Thailand or overseas. This is intended as a further check on an applicant's financial health.

Applicants for extensions on short visas, for example a request for the maximum allowed 7 days on a "Visa on Arrival" or for the maximum 30 days on a "60 day Tourist Visa" issued abroad, must now show proof of their onward travel plans after the extension has expired, by having in their possession an air or electronic airline ticket, or a bus ticket with clear dates printed on it. This requirement is to assure Immigration that the visa holder does indeed plan to leave Thailand at the expiration of his extension. This information is also on the PCEC website at http://www.pattayacityexpatsclub.com/modul...le&sid=1039

My comment on Thursday experience at Jomtien:

I went to renew my retirement extension yesterday at Jomtien (Thursday). I used the money in bank rule again (800K) and not the monthly income rule. I was not asked to show any credit cards which are the only way I bring money into Thailand, nor any credit card receipts. Which is probably a good thing, because I don't know about you guys, but doesn't something look really shaky about the above statement about making copies of your credit cards? What could be easier than this for someone to use that information to commit credit card fraud and identity fraud? I also had my money in a "Joint Account" and was asked for a copy of my marriage certificate to prove who the other name was on my "joint account". I was worried about the joint account being questioned since this is the first time I ever used the joint account at immigration, and thought they may require me to have double the money in the account with my Thai wife. They didn't THIS time luckily, since I wanted to use that account as emergency funds in case I get thrown in the hospital or jail. My circumstances may be different than some since I MAY have some sort of "grandfathering" in effect since I've been here for 38 years now, but if these requirements listed above are legitimate for credit card/ATM card copies, then I can REALLY see big problems. I don't see any way I would ever give copies of my credit cards (front AND back) to ANYONE, let alone our ever friendly immigration offices!

Hi

I am interested in the fact that you have been living in Thailand for the last 38 years, meaning that you came here approx 1969.

Would you consider starting a new post about your life, what made you go to Thailand, how easy/difficult was it visa wise when you first came over and what Thailand was like in 1969/70s?

Thanks

[phuketrichard]

Anyone that has a bank account can get an atm card (min 500 baht in the bank) so why would they want to see that.

And if u have cc from outside Thailand or for that matetr from here in Thailand, why would you tell them you have them?

there is no way they could ever find out if u do or dont and

You would need to be really really stupid to give them photocopies of front and back.

To me anything that comes out of Pattaya has to be taken with a grain of salt

They have mentioned that for the Extension on which one gets for over 50 and having a thai child they "might" wish to see and i quote form Head immigration here in Phuket, " ..recipts of expenses that relate to her/him such as education fees, clothing, and so on..."

Edited October 28, 2007 by phuketrichard

[JetsetBkk]

Is this the same guy?:

Barry Kenyon has lived and worked in Thailand for many years where he is a college lecturer and columnist for the Pattaya Mail. He is also the question setter for Pattaya's thriving pub quiz leagues. His hobbies are bridge and golf and he was the founder of Pattaya bridge club.

That was from his profile on Amazon.com: www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/A206W865BATCDG

Stickman also has an interesting article on him:

Barry Who?

His name appears more often in the Pattaya press than George Bush, David Beckham and Madonna all put together, but he isn't famous. He has a classic short back and sides haircut, but he has never been in the military. He was born in Liverpool, but he doesn't care for football.

Barry Kenyon is the Honorary Consul (Pattaya) for the British Embassy and yesterday the erudite Brit allowed me an hour of his precious time to talk about his role as the British Embassy's man in Pattaya.

How long have you lived in Thailand?

I came here in 1992. I came over to teach English and also to train Thai teachers of English. I did that for a few years.

www.stickmanbangkok.com/Weekly2006/weekly265.htm

[Pundi64]

Nope not me !! Next they'll want to know what size your underwear we are wearing,Blah, blah blah!. What the _hit are these people thinking? Maybe they just want our bank accounts numbers and passwords in our home country, just for proof, sure, sure, sure, LOL, so they put an end to all the confusion and take all the money, this is total BS.

Edited October 28, 2007 by Pundi64

[Manchester]

Go back to sleep

[Pundi64]

Go back to sleep

LOL nope I always get up this early- best time of the day for the internet to run fast -

[Sojourner]

When the subject of having the affirmation letter from our embassies stamped by the MFA first came up I wanted to see what would happen if the paperwork was sent via a translation service. I went to a translation service in Chiang Mai and they translated the letter into Thai and along with a copy of my passport and the original letter sent it off to Bangkok. It came back a week later with stamps and a sticker pasted on both the translation and original that the signature of the embassy representative was genuine. Since then I have gone to the Chiang Mai Immigration for my one year extension based on retirement and everything went smoothly. They didn't ask why I got the stamp. They did however keep the original affirmation letter. I think these days it really pays to go to Immigration a few weeks early just in case something comes in from out of the blue.

[stickyb]

If I remember correctly, Barry Kenyon (Brit hon consul) is the same guy who, a few months ago, released the supposed regulation that the people who were applying for the 1 yr retirement extension based on monthly income, had to get their embassy affidavit's certified by MFA isn't he? That proved to be wrong. I'm sure that Mr. Kenyon would not knowingly release false information, so I would like to know where he is getting his information? What is the source?

I fear you rememebr incorrectly. The "breaking news" stories were started in this forum, some by Sunbelt Asia. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=140252 for example.

They were actually debunked by Barry Kenyon, both as reported on the web and also here: http://www.pattaya2day.com/index.php?actio...ews&id=2484

[lopburi3]

Your memory is much different than mine. The story originated with a poster making a quote of a Pattaya news report that was sourced to Mr. Kenyon in my recollection. This was later reported to be on hold with another Pattaya news report sourced again to Mr. Kenyon.

The Sunbelt news reports were a totally different subject.

[gavstah]

I just got my one year extension based on marriage issued in Jomtien on Friday, 26 Oct. (yippee!)

If you used a embassy/consul letter to verify all / part of your income did they say you need a stamp from MFA in Bangkok?

We were asked to take my Affadavit of Income issued by the US Embassy to the MFA in BKK to get the stamp.

Did they ask for copies of your ATM / Credit cards?

No, they did not. But they did ask for more than that.

Pattaya immigration straight out told us that the Affadavit of Income provided by the US Embassy is not worth the paper it's written on. So, I was first asked to provide a letter from my employer in the US verifying my income. Which I did - only to be told that even this was not good enough - they wanted to see tax statements - or as my wife translated, "they want to see paper issued by the government". So, I ended up providing my W-2 (Wage & Earnings Statement provided to the IRS by the company) from last year, plus a copy of last year's tax returns. This was after we provided them with copies of our bankbook for the past six months, etc that clearly showed we have in excess of 40k in income (transferred from my US bank acct) per month.

It was back and forth for a while - it seemed to me that they were bound and determined to see proof of just where my income was coming from.

According to the police capt we spoke with, they are tightening up on documentation for this type of visa due to an increasing trend of farangs participating in "marriage of convenience" - paying a girl to marry them to provide the documentation so that they can get a Non-O for a year and continue to live here in Thailand. This probably explains why the immigration guy who came to our house for the "snap inspection" had us find a random neighbor that was willing to sign something that said we'd been living at our current address.

Just my experience - your mileage may vary.

[scotsman]

After a long wait in pattaya immigration today, I have been told to collect my passport tomorrow but I was successful in getting my visa changed to retirement. They did not give me back my pension letter as that is also a rule change so you have to get a new one every year. I was never asked for a copy of my credit card or Atm card. Well may be next year they will but I will never give anyone a copy of my credit card may be a empty bangkok bank atm account one

[Kaojai]

I fear you rememebr incorrectly. The "breaking news" stories were started in this forum, some by Sunbelt Asia. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=140252 for example.

They were actually debunked by Barry Kenyon, both as reported on the web and also here: http://www.pattaya2day.com/index.php?actio...ews&id=2484

from July 22nd: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...enyon&st=25

In supporting the originality of this article I enclose a quote below from the minutes of the Pattaya City Expat's Club weekly meeting of Sunday July 15th, 2007, which indicates that Barry Kenyon, Honorary British Council, will visit their meeting of Sunday 22nd July. Although I will not be at that meeting to hear him speak, I will receive a copy of the minutes of the meeting and post again a copy here.

I used to live in Pattaya and this is a club worth visiting, their website is www.pattayacityexpatsclub.com

Below is the quotation from their Newsletter of 15/07:-

"Also, Barry Kenyon, Honorary British Consul, will be here to elaborate on the new requirements for obtaining or renewing a visa when using a pension verification or certification letter from your Embassy as proof of pension income. The new requirement, effective Oct. 1, 2007 for new and renewal Retirement Visa's, requires that the Embassy letter verifying pension income must have an additional stamp from the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Bangkok. More information on this requirement and a link to the Pattaya Today news article can be found under the Newsletter’s Important News caption. "

[jeepholt]

Your memory is much different than mine. The story originated with a poster making a quote of a Pattaya news report that was sourced to Mr. Kenyon in my recollection. This was later reported to be on hold with another Pattaya news report sourced again to Mr. Kenyon.

The Sunbelt news reports were a totally different subject.

Thanks lopburi3. I know my memory is fading year upon year, but I didn't think I was in total darkness and clueless yet! Sure looks like they had "gavstah" jumping through hoops on the 26th doesn't it?

Now, where did I leave my glasses?

[LukDod]

An earlier post mentioned 'erasing the CVV on credit cards.

Well this seemingly only provides a modicum of additional security.

The internet revealed that anyone with a few $$ can get a book to crack [erased] CVV codes:

http://www.creditcard-numbers.com/index.php?pr=Products

Sadly, evidently there's no real secure safety net!

[Jingthing]

This so called credit card requirement DOES NOT EXIST.

Not last year.

Not this year.

Not next year.

And for God's sake, please do not give voluntarily include these copies with your application. They are not being asked for. They aren't required. Don't do it!

Edited October 29, 2007 by Jingthing

[pontious]

For extensions 'based on marriage' the MFA stamp has resurfaced. That will be a pain for those affected ( not me luckily)

P

I wonder if it is just a Jomtien thing. 'Scotsman' said his lawyer/translation letter did not cut ice. That will be a headache for those living a long way from BKK.

Edited October 29, 2007 by pontious

[Guderian]

This so called credit card requirement DOES NOT EXIST.

Not last year.

Not this year.

Not next year.

And for God's sake, please do not give voluntarily include these copies with your application. They are not being asked for. They aren't required. Don't do it!

Don't do it!

I AGREE 100%!!!

Sorry for the font, just trying to attract attention, but Jingthing's message really is important.

Size reduced.

Please do not shout.

Astral

[WilliamIV]

I have just looked at the Pattaya website

The article reads>

Applicants for one year retirement visas must now show and make copies of the back and front of any one currently valid ATM or credit card issued in their name. The copies must be signed by the applicant. It does not matter whether the card was issued in Thailand or overseas.

The OP missed the word "one" - The OP reads as if ALL Cards are required

Edited October 29, 2007 by WilliamIV

[Jingthing]

I suggest we drop this topic. It might give them ideas. Its a crazy rumor. It is not real.

[astral]

Barry Kenyon is the British consul in Pattaya, he issues the pension letters, and other advice for British ex-pats and holidayers, at Pattaya immigration on behalf of the British embassy.

Ah. Perhaps that is the problem.

I wonder if a letter direct from the Embassy is allowed?

Not that is should make any difference.

[pontious]

Doubt it -'Gavstah' is obviously American and he had to go to BKK for the MFA stamp.

[jeepholt]

So, has anyone had any experience's in Jomtien immigration this week they can tell us about? Or has anyone contacted Barry Kenyon and asked him about the source of this rumor that is being attributed to him? Inquiring minds want to know!

[PeaceBlondie]

This MFA stamp on the letter from the embassy has not been required at Chiang Mai, although it is reported at Jomtien and Loei. This month in Chiang Mai, I did not get an MFA stamp on my 11 month old American consulate pension statement. No MFA stamp was requested. They did keep the original from 11 months previous (it was the second year I used the same statement), but they didn't mention why they kept it in Chiang Mai.

I think this thread is the first time we have heard a report that an Immigration Police officer said the American embassy statement was 'not worth the paper it is printed on.' I find it a bit odd that a knowledgable immigration officer would place no value at all upon a sworn/affirmed document that was certified/signed by an embassy officer, when the same immigration officers require our signatures on everything we hand them that is a copy.

It is reasonable, though, for any Thai immigration officer to request backup for self-declared pension income. The 'certification' by MFA is even more meaningless, because it can only express an opinion that the officer who certified the original self-declaration was an officer at the embassy/consulate. The MFA's certification cannot verify the pension income itself, nor can the officer at some of our embassies.

[Jingthing]

PB, you bring up an interesting point. When an American signs that document at the embassy, isn't it severely illegal under American law for the expat to sign this paper if he has provided lies? So, this Thai officer is really saying that the expats are criminals, not only that the paper is worthless, yes? Excuse me now while I do a Yankee doodle dance and eat a Reese's peanut butter cup.

Edited October 31, 2007 by Jingthing