Latest Edition Of Pattaya Today

[Guderian]

The latest edition of Pattaya Today - love it or hate it - is out and has a number of articles, both large and small, on visa issues.

Barry Kenyon summarises what is needed (in Pattaya at least) for a retirement extension in the 'Talk of the Town' section:

http://www.pattaya2day.com/index.php?actio...ews&id=2683

Note, though, that what he says (e.g. he implies - as he has for some weeks now - that everyone must provide a copy of a credit or ATM card) is not backed-up by recent experiences at Jomtien Immigration, including my own - see http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=158474.

I picked up two main things of interest from the various articles.

1. In several places it is categorically stated that the 90-day seasoning rule when going the 800K Baht in the bank route ONLY applies to the first extension, and NOT to subsequent ones (Jingthing - that may interest you). Two caveats - firstly, as already noted, this paper is clearly not 100% reliable, even when it is the Honorary British Consul writing, and secondly, if it is correct, this may only apply to the weird and wonderful world of Pattaya Immigration.

2. There was a smaller item in the print edition about people going the income route needing not just an Embassy letter, but an audit trail as well now. In other words, the bank statements (or whatever other basis the Embassy approved your income on) must now also be shown to Immigration. It doesn't affect me, but some people may be interested in this change. (Or is this as reliable as the story about the requirement to have the letter stamped at the MFA in BKK???)

There is also a small notice (on page 2 or 4) which made me smile, from the British Embassy stating that letters supporting income can ONLY be issued by the Embassy, not by anybody else. I assume by that they include Mr. Kenyon . But I wonder who else has been selling such letters ?

I'd like to scan some of this stuff and post it here, but I am shortly off back to the UK for a month, so I don't have the time. If you're interested, either buy a copy of the rag if you can (do they sell it in BKK?), or ask someone else in Pattaya to scan the bits of interest.

Anyway, wishing one and all a very pleasant Christmas and all the best for 2008 - and happy visa hunting!

[Maestro]

...Barry Kenyon summarises...

Oh, no! Not His Excellency again!

For the rest, thank you for having gone to the trouble of putting the news article in perspective.

I believe most, if not all, immigration offices mostly, if not always, want to see a Thai bank account and bank’s confirmation letter also when the application for extension for reason of retirement is based on income, but in this case the bank balance is immaterial, ie does not have to be 800k.

If the news reports you mentioned are also in the online version, perhaps somebody will come along and post links to them.

--

Maestro

[yaketyak]

I may be wrong but i think the article has also missed out that you have to show a letter from your home country confirming you have no criminal record. Is this not so ?

[Maestro]

...is this not so ?

It is not.

--

Maestro

[Lite Beer]

I may be wrong but i think the article has also missed out that you have to show a letter from your home country confirming you have no criminal record. Is this not so ?

Not So. Sorry.

[Jingthing]

Please note that, for a second or subsequent application, the three months rule does not apply.

Thanks alot for that!

This is exactly what I was CLEARLY told (and other reports as well) by Jomtien immigration.

On this detail alone, I think it is fair to say this about Jomtien immigration:

THE THREE MONTH MONEY SEASONING REQUIREMENT DOES NOT APPLY TO RETIREMENT EXTENSIONS EXCEPT THE FIRST ONE

Edited December 18, 2007 by Jingthing

[Maestro]

...I think it is fair to say this about Jomtien immigration:

THE THREE MONTH MONEY SEASONING REQUIREMENT DOES NOT APPLY TO RETIREMENT EXTENSIONS EXCEPT THE FIRST ONE

...provided you comply with Jomtien’s special rule – not included in the official rules – of submitting a copy of a credit card or ATM card. Is that it?

--

Maestro

[Jingthing]

...I think it is fair to say this about Jomtien immigration:

THE THREE MONTH MONEY SEASONING REQUIREMENT DOES NOT APPLY TO RETIREMENT EXTENSIONS EXCEPT THE FIRST ONE

...provided you comply with Jomtien’s special rule – not included in the official rules – of submitting a copy of a credit card or ATM card. Is that it?

--

Maestro

Huh???

Reports are those qualifying with the 800K in the baht are NOT being asked for credit card copies.

[lopburi3]

Lets put it this way - the regulation in force is 606/2006 and it requires three months of bank passbook information for those in the system before 1998. What does that mean? That I can not answer. But I believe any assumptions are premature.

Person who has the age from 60

years old and have the certain

income, with the saving money

in the Bank not less than

200,000 year per year and show

the latest 3 months records of

the passbook,

[Jingthing]

The 3 month money seasoning rule for retirement extensions is being applied to first time extensions. At least at Jomtien, it is not being applied to subsequent extensions.

Not sure what Lopburi was saying, but I have stated what is actually going on; what assumptions?

Edited December 18, 2007 by Jingthing

[Maestro]

OK, let’s have a closer look at the article referenced in the OP. All highlighting in the quoted text is mine.

by Barry Kenyon

Talk of the Town, as a reader service, here presents the requirements for applicants for the one year retirement visa...

The so-called “retirement visa”, by official sources such as the websites of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and some Thai consulates sometimes also called “long-stay visa”, is either a single-entry non-immigrant visa category O-A which grants its holder upon entry into Thailand a permission to stay for one year, or a multiple-entry non-immigrant visa category O-A which is valid for an unlimited number of entries into Thailand during the visa’s validity period, which is usually one year, and grants its holder upon each entry into Thailand a permission to stay for one year. These visas are available only at a Thai consulate.

In the context of his article, His Excellency appears to refer to the annual extension of stay for the reason of retirement, the so-called retirement extension. Such application is made at an immigration office in Thailand.

...Firstly, for an initial application, you need a non-immigrant visa type “O” issued outside Thailand which is currently valid. If you do not have such a visa, you can apply in Thailand to have your 30 day visit stamp or your 60 day tourist visa “upgraded” to non immigrant status. There is an extra fee for this service and a special form “Application for a Non Immigrant Visa”. You must request the transfer at the same time you are applying for the retirement visa...

For form “Application for a Non Immigrant Visa”, read “form TM.86 Application for change of visa”.

For “request the transfer”, read “apply for the change of visa”

For “applying for the retirement visa”, read “applying for the retirement extension”.

...the extension known as the retirement visa...

For the above, read “extension know as the retirement extension.

...must have been deposited there at least 90 days before the application is made...

For “90 days”, read “ three months”

... A new regulation requires you to photocopy any valid ATM or credit or debit card...

For “new regulation requires” read “new requirement, not part of the current official rules, the Jomtien immigration office requires”

...the spouse of an applicant for the retirement visa...

For “retirement visa”, read “retirement extension”.

For the rest, His Excellency’s article is indeed a useful guide for applicants for extension of stay for the reason of retirement.

[astral]

Don't believe all you read in the papers...........................

[Jingthing]

Don't believe all you read in the papers...........................

Agreed. In the case I am talking about, the papers agree with what people including me have posted here, based on real life experiences. What exactly does it take to believe?

Edited December 18, 2007 by Jingthing

[yaketyak]

...is this not so ?

It is not.

--

Maestro

OK i don't want to go on about this point , especially as 2 people have said i am wrong. I accept i must be . But when i check the official sites it says that for a retirement visa you need to show police clearance. Or are we talking about a different visa here? (i thought there was just 1 retirement visa)? can someone enlightern me as to where i am going wrong please?

[lopburi3]

You are talking about a long stay visa obtained in your home country. Most people just extend a non immigrant visa for retirement at an Immigration office in Thailand. Extensions do not require any such paperwork.

[yaketyak]

You are talking about a long stay visa obtained in your home country. Most people just extend a non immigrant visa for retirement at an Immigration office in Thailand. Extensions do not require any such paperwork.

Got it now !! Thanks Lopburi3

[tropo]

Don't believe all you read in the papers...........................

Agreed. In the case I am talking about, the papers agree with what people including me have posted here, based on real life experiences. What exactly does it take to believe?

There's also the possibility that individual Immigration Officers are enforcing the rules differently. I noticed a sign at Jomtien on Monday stating (not in these exact words) that decisions are made in the branch offices and their decision is the final one.

Here's a good example from Monday... I was there with my GF to get 30 day extensions on our tourist visas. We both had onward air tickets to show them as we've been aware that Jomtien have been asking to see them.

I was given mine back by the officer who told me she didn't need it (she didn't even look at it), whereas the officer attending my GF kept hers.

[longball53098]

There's also the possibility that individual Immigration Officers are enforcing the rules differently. I noticed a sign at Jomtien on Monday stating (not in these exact words) that decisions are made in the branch offices and their decision is the final one.

Here's a good example from Monday... I was there with my GF to get 30 day extensions on our tourist visas. We both had onward air tickets to show them as we've been aware that Jomtien have been asking to see them.

I was given mine back by the officer who told me she didn't need it (she didn't even look at it), whereas the officer attending my GF kept hers.

Sorry but what does this have to do with the news article about the retirement extensions? Your referring to a 30 day visa extension,,,,,,,a whole different thing I think.

[Guest]

Interesting reports about Retirement renewals at Jomtien.

In my separate "Retirement Renewal Report" post (at Soi Suan Plu Bangkok) I mentioned that I was required to sign a form acknowledging that I have been informed that the 800K is required to be on deposit for at least three months prior to renewal....

[LivinLOS]

There's also the possibility that individual Immigration Officers are enforcing the rules differently. I noticed a sign at Jomtien on Monday stating (not in these exact words) that decisions are made in the branch offices and their decision is the final one.

Here's a good example from Monday... I was there with my GF to get 30 day extensions on our tourist visas. We both had onward air tickets to show them as we've been aware that Jomtien have been asking to see them.

I was given mine back by the officer who told me she didn't need it (she didn't even look at it), whereas the officer attending my GF kept hers.

Sorry but what does this have to do with the news article about the retirement extensions? Your referring to a 30 day visa extension,,,,,,,a whole different thing I think.

Hes demonstrating that different rules apply in the same situation depending on different officers, offices, time of day, mood of officer..

Is that so hard to understand ??

[jonniebkk]

I am curious as to what to make of the new documentation for those with embassy letters (as opposed to those with the 800k bank deposits) - the "audit trail." The report is that the Thai immigration want to see whatever documentation showing the pension amount that was provided to the embassy that issued the letter. As I have long suspected, Thai immigration didn't know what the AMERICAN letters actually represent. For the American embassy letters, there is NO documentation provided for issuance of the "pension" letters. All that the letter/document states is that the person named in the letter has sworn to the embassy officer that their pension, as self-reported in the letter, is true. You don't actually show them anything...just swear to them that what you have written in the letter is true. Therefore, there would be nothing to show Thai immigration.

I don't know how it works with other embassy letters from other countries.

I could show copies of my bank statements (USA) that are 20 pages long per month...there is a line in the credits section each month showing a pension deposit (but just shows a deposit/credit and not its source). It's the same for the monthly Social Security deposit. There is lots of other personal financial information in the statement and there is no way I'm showing that to any immigration officer in ANY country.

For the life of me, I still don't understand why, for the monthly pension folks, they don't accept as proof monthly foreign currency transfers as shown in one's Thai bank book as proof of a pension/monthly income!! In the bank books, the transaction is coded as a FOREIGN CURRENCY TRANSFER showing that it is "new" money coming into Thailand and not money being passed around by (i.e., being shared) by locals (as would be the case if it was just a local or foreign currency deposit into the account). Wouldn't this make it easier for everyone...immigration officers and many expats? Am I missing something here?

[lopburi3]

Money laundering comes to mind. I suspect a visit to declare the income to ones Embassy weeds out some of that. And in the case of most Embassies there is some check of documentation.

As the US requires tax payments from all of us I suspect most Americans might have second thoughts about declaring income that they have not reported on there tax returns.

[ProThaiExpat]

johnnieBkk: The informations is morphing so misunderstanding can occur. It has been posted in the past that an immigration officer in Jomtien opined that the retirement letter "was not worth the paper it was printed on" and such an opinion might motivate the individual immigration officer to require some form of substantiation for the letter.

There is no way to determine what proof that might be required in such isolated instances, but any document from a institution showing income on a yearly basis equals 800K Baht. We have yet to see a post that said a substantiation of a monthly income of 65K was required vs. a yearly income stream.

[jonniebkk]

...in the past that an immigration officer in Jomtien opined that the retirement letter "was not worth the paper it was printed on" and such an opinion might motivate the individual immigration officer to require some form of substantiation for the letter.

That's more or less my point, unless the immigration folks liaise with the foreign embassies to confirm that the embassies actually do require some type of documentation before issuing the letters. Maybe other embassies than the US actually do require documentation of pension/income but the US doesn't. It's like one of those stated income subprime loans...you just pull an income figure out of your a$#e and if you are willing to swear it true, that's all there is to it.

So would not it be easier to show them your Thai bank book with the monthly FOREIGN CURRENCY TRANSFER into the account in the appropriate amount to show you have a pension/monthly income from investments/whatever to sustain you in Thailand. I guess one argument for proof of a PENSION is that said monies are generally paid for life, whereas investment or savings income transferred monthly could go down or be lost entirely and then the Thai's end up with a cashed-out foreigner stuck in LOS.

Seems like it is getting to be less of a hassle to just deposit the money in advance, i.e., the B 800k

[ProThaiExpat]

jonnieBkk: While it might get discouraging when one tries to mentally go through the process, I did it in only 15 minutes a few months ago in Chiang Mai as did my friend for the first time. Many have posted that they went through the process lately in Jomtien with no difficulty, so at this point, if your about to do it yourself and have documentation, take it along, but otherwise wait for someone to ask for pension verification before you worry about it.

[Maestro]

...So would not it be easier to show them your Thai bank book with the monthly FOREIGN CURRENCY TRANSFER into the account in the appropriate amount to show you have a pension/monthly income from investments/whatever to sustain you in Thailand...

It would be easier, but it would not meet the requirements for an application for extension based on income. A remittance from abroad into your Thai bank account is not proof of income. A document from the entity paying you the income provides the required proof.

--

Maestro

[Maestro]

...In the case I am talking about, the papers agree with what people including me have posted here, based on real life experiences. What exactly does it take to believe?

Not to believe, it takes reports of first-hand experience saying that when they got their first retirement extension at Jomtien based on 800k in the bank they were made to sign a document that they understand that for future extensions the 800k must be in the bank at least 3 months before the application date, like for example this report:

...I was asked to sign a legal document stating that I had been informed that 800K must be in the account for three months prior to applying each time.

Now let’s here it from people who had the opposite experience, ie people who received a signed document from Jomtien immigration saying that for future applications for extension the 800k need not be in the bank for at least 3 months, or from people who have already made a second application for extension since 1 October 2006 and received the extension even though they did not have proof of 300k in the bank for at least 3 months and, to compensate for this lack of proof, did not have to submit copy of a credit card or ATM card.

--

Maestro

[jonniebkk]

Many have posted that they went through the process lately in Jomtien with no difficulty, so at this point, if your about to do it yourself and have documentation, take it along, but otherwise wait for someone to ask for pension verification before you worry about it.

Thanks for the encouragement...I actually do the renewals for a friend and it doesn't come up again till Sept. 08...so will have to wait to see what rules are in effect then However, just like to monitor the forum to see what the latest new is so am prepared.

[jonniebkk]

It would be easier, but it would not meet the requirements for an application for extension based on income. A remittance from abroad into your Thai bank account is not proof of income. A document from the entity paying you the income provides the required proof.

OK...so I get you. It's a complying with the letter of the law type thing. I can certainly understand that. I would imagine that it would be possible to obtain from most private and public pension providers a document confirming the amount of ones monthly/annual pension. This could be translated/certified if necessary and provided to the immigration officials at renewal time.

However, for folks who were self-employed or, for whatever reason, don't have a pension, but maybe live off investments or interest earnings, they would have no such documents. I guess then they can produce their bank/brokerage statements as proof of assets or do the 800k deposit scheme.

[Maestro]

...This could be translated/certified if necessary and provided to the immigration officials at renewal time...

If the documents are in English, no translation is necessary.

...However, for folks who were self-employed or, for whatever reason, don't have a pension, but maybe live off investments or interest earnings, they would have no such documents. I guess then they can produce their bank/brokerage statements as proof of assets or do the 800k deposit scheme.

If the applicant for retirement extension is self-employed in the sense that he has his own company, he writes a confirmation of salary to himself on his company’s letterhead.

If he lives off dividend and interest earnings, the dividend and interest documents, provided by his brokers and banks, are his supporting documents for the embassy letter.

If he lives off his investments, savings, etc., he applies for extension on the basis of 800k in a Thai bank.

--

Maestro