Two Tourists In Pai Shot By A Police Officer

[jumnien]

Thanks, JungleJim; it's nice to hear from local folks in Pai with a little insight into the situation. Keep the thoughts coming!

[Andiamo]

Still, I wouldn't advise retribution - but if the Canadian guy's family beats the publicity drum hard enough - like the father of the murdered girl in Kanchanaburi, then the system here may not be able to sweep this under the rug.

Good point - let's hope they do and pressure the Media, Canadian Government, Canadian Embassy officials in Thailand so that it is NOT swept under the carpet.

As an aside, yesterday whilst speaking to two Thai Officials who I know well (both work in the Prison system here), both of them were not aware of this case...

RIP to the victim - this is precisely what he was, despite the "apparent disinformation" circulated by the Thai Police - those so called "Upholders of Justice". NOBODY deserves to die in this manner - even if it turns out there was a disagreement between the parties - we are human beings and NOT animals. We do not live in a jungle, we are supposed to live in a civil society.

It's really quite strange, my mindset whilst living here has done an about-turn, here I would actively avoid Thai Policemen due to previous negative and unsatisfactory experiences when dealing with them. Although I don't like to make generalisations, unfortunately, I have tarred them all with the same brush and they are tainted. Sad but true.

IMO, there needs to be a radical overhaul of the Thai Police system. One thing which needs addressing is, "Who Polices the Police?"

What is foreign governments able to be doing for cases such this? What Embassy can do to police here?

Hey I bet they throw the book at the cop. I wouldn't doubt that he will get transfered to another province. That will teach him.

LiveSteam

You think???

I do hope this is investigated PROPERLY and that Justice is served and jail time sentences are handed down. (However, forgive me my scepticism..).

[Guest coffeemaker]

Due the fact that this user has posted this line here now second time...reminding what the bar owner of the BeBop had to say about the three ppls state of mind earlier before they left.

Correct. According to witnesses, the policeman was summoned by the owner to stop the fight. No one at Daeng's has said they saw Sgt Uthai strike Reisig, i.e., so far there's no independent corroboration for Reisig's version.

Anyhow, here is what BeBops owner had said earlier (from Andrew's newsreport):

"Suchart Pantai, the owner of Be-Bop bar said he saw the couple and Fuen leave his bar at about 1 am. There was no fighting. But I heard from other sources that they were ‘play fighting’ as they walked."

Also I don't know why this is posted here especially when uh, the patient herself is denying being pregnant:

"What if the father of the unborn baby was the policeman ?? smile.gif With all these assumptions and conclusions being leapt to I thought I would add another he he wink.gif"

AND, first thinkin' JungleJim has nice input, then why there is this between the lines:

"Whatever some of the more ridiculous posters think of farang behaviour and its rights and wrongs, you try keeping your cool if you found out your wife/girlfriend had been shagging around behind your back and was pregnant as a result"

Anyway, my first 2cent to this forum, maybe the last too as this thread was so interesting that it was the only reason to joing the site (never liked the moderating rules of the board ).

Edited January 9, 2008 by coffeemaker

[Prakanong]

Ok not sure if anyone has put this scenario up but to throw a cat amongst the pigeons ...

What if the father of the unborn baby was the policeman ?? With all these assumptions and conclusions being leapt to I thought I would add another he he

As for doing a runner after shooting, it's quite an intense experience discharging a weapon and even more so discharging it whilst aimed at another individual especially if it is the first time for the individual. So it is understandable that it is possible panic set in after the situation.

That may have been a valid speculation a few days ago but as soon as the woman was interviewed it was declared sho is not in fact pregnant and i am sure the hospital would have notices this apparant discrepancy too - Thai does have some decent healthcare in parts of its system.

[kat]

SJ:

I already responded to this in the later post #528, which you chose not to quote, in which I acknowledged this point and others, with one important caveat:

the cop FLED, full stop. Will we scientifically and indisputably conclude that he was drunk, in plain clothes, and beaten up? No, but the outcome of his behavior and behavior certainly corroborate irresponsibility and intent to cover it up.

Well, the evidence that he was beaten up seems pretty slim. Since he fled the scene, he was not so badly injured that he couldn't make his get away. The Kanchanaburi policeman who murdered the British couple went to a hospital to get treatment for his injuries after the murder and the hospital staff later testified that he was blind drunk. There is no suggestion in this case that the killer got any medical treatment, so he may have to rely on unreliable witnesses to testify about that. Equally there will no evidence that he was drunk.

Yep, so true. I was only trying to entertain a hypothetical for the apologists.

More info.

FACT - many people witnessed him drinking all night in Be Bop prior to the incident. He certainly had not just come off duty. Judging by the state he normally gets into, he would barely have been capable of standing up and would be the most unsuitable person i can imagine to intervene in a domestic with anyone, let alone a farang couple especially as his english is very bad and next to impossible to understand when he is drunk. To be honest, I doubt he can recall what happened and was probably in blackout mode.

Yeah, but his aim was dead on, wasn't it? Very interesting that you are still talking about the pregnancy and fight outside. Is that just a repeat from the article, or is that what the general population in Pai believe? I agree with you about the strange pre-meditated murder charge.

Due the fact that this user has posted this line here now second time...reminding what the bar owner of the BeBop had to say about the three ppls state of mind earlier before they left.

Correct. According to witnesses, the policeman was summoned by the owner to stop the fight. No one at Daeng's has said they saw Sgt Uthai strike Reisig, i.e., so far there's no independent corroboration for Reisig's version.

Anyhow, here is what BeBops owner had said earlier (from Andrew's newsreport):

"Suchart Pantai, the owner of Be-Bop bar said he saw the couple and Fuen leave his bar at about 1 am. There was no fighting. But I heard from other sources that they were ‘play fighting’ as they walked."

Yeah, thought about that one too, coffeemaker. Thanks for mentioning that one. It is real proof of an inconsistency before and after good 'ol Uthai is out.

[sabaijai]

As for doing a runner after shooting, it's quite an intense experience discharging a weapon and even more so discharging it whilst aimed at another individual especially if it is the first time for the individual. So it is understandable that it is possible panic set in after the situation.

Yes, the flight alone doesn't reveal any conspiracy or premeditated intent to cover up. Sgt Uthai turned himself in a short time later, was indicted for murder, and has not jumped bail.

[sabaijai]

SJ:

I already responded to this in the later post #528, which you chose not to quote, in which I acknowledged this point and others, with one important caveat:

the cop FLED, full stop. Will we scientifically and indisputably conclude that he was drunk, in plain clothes, and beaten up? No, but the outcome of his behavior and behavior certainly corroborate irresponsibility and intent to cover it up.

Well, the evidence that he was beaten up seems pretty slim. Since he fled the scene, he was not so badly injured that he couldn't make his get away. The Kanchanaburi policeman who murdered the British couple went to a hospital to get treatment for his injuries after the murder and the hospital staff later testified that he was blind drunk. There is no suggestion in this case that the killer got any medical treatment, so he may have to rely on unreliable witnesses to testify about that. Equally there will no evidence that he was drunk.

Yep, so true. I was only trying to entertain a hypothetical for the apologists.

More info.

FACT - many people witnessed him drinking all night in Be Bop prior to the incident. He certainly had not just come off duty. Judging by the state he normally gets into, he would barely have been capable of standing up and would be the most unsuitable person i can imagine to intervene in a domestic with anyone, let alone a farang couple especially as his english is very bad and next to impossible to understand when he is drunk. To be honest, I doubt he can recall what happened and was probably in blackout mode.

Yeah, but his aim was dead on, wasn't it? Very interesting that you are still talking about the pregnancy and fight outside. Is that just a repeat from the article, or is that what the general population in Pai believe? I agree with you about the strange pre-meditated murder charge.

Due the fact that this user has posted this line here now second time...reminding what the bar owner of the BeBop had to say about the three ppls state of mind earlier before they left.

Correct. According to witnesses, the policeman was summoned by the owner to stop the fight. No one at Daeng's has said they saw Sgt Uthai strike Reisig, i.e., so far there's no independent corroboration for Reisig's version.

Anyhow, here is what BeBops owner had said earlier (from Andrew's newsreport):

"Suchart Pantai, the owner of Be-Bop bar said he saw the couple and Fuen leave his bar at about 1 am. There was no fighting. But I heard from other sources that they were ‘play fighting’ as they walked."

Yeah, thought about that one too, coffeemaker. Thanks for mentioning that one. It is real proof of an inconsistency before and after good 'ol Uthai is out.

I spoke with Be-Bop owner Chart (Suchart Panpai, not Pantai as reported here), and although he saw no fighting inside his bar, he has no idea what happened after they left Be-Bop. The crime scene is over a half km away from Be-Bop.

[farang prince]

Perhaps I can bring a little perspective to this tragic case through the eyes of an experienced homicide detective. In my many years as a homicide detective with a major police department in the United States, I investigated a number of police-related shootings. These were difficult investigations, because usually we would know the officer involved in the shooting and we often were under pressure from department supervisors to justify the shooting and from the media and the public to crucify the officer. It takes tremendous professionalism in order to ignore these outside pressures and conduct a thorough investigation.

Out of more than 30 officer-related shootings that my partner and I investigated, four were determined to be criminal offenses (trial juries acquited three of the four officers in the shootings). Another seven investigations determined that the officer violated departmental policy and in three of those cases, the officer was terminated. In three other cases, the officers resigned. The seventh case, the officer filed an appeal and was re-hired with back wages paid in full. The rest of the shootings were justified.

We are limited to depending on newspaper articles, a brief police statement and an interview with one of the victims to provide the "facts" about the double shooting in Pai. Based on this limited information, the issues would appear to be these:

1) Was the Canadian couple actually inebriated? Did they argue in a public place (the street) and disturb public peace and/or was there an assault by the Canadian man against the woman or the woman against the man?

2) Did the Royal Thai Police officer witness a crime? Was the police officer in uniform or civilian clothes? Did the officer clearly identify himself as a police officer? Was the police officer drunk or had he been drinking off-duty? Does the Royal Thai Police have a policy for their police officers' conduct when they are off-duty? Are officers expected to enforce the law 24/7 or does their law enforcement responsibilities conclude at the end of shift? What is the policy about officers carrying service weapons off-duty?

3) Was the police officer assaulted by one or more of the victims? Did the officer feel his life was in jeopardy? At what point did the officer produce his weapon? Was it a department-issued weapon? What was said between the officer and the shooting victims?

4) The officer claims the shooting was accidental. The number of shots fired would seem to undermine his statement. At what proximity to the victims were the shots fired? Were these contact wounds? Were the shots fired from within six feet from the victims? If the shots were beyond six feet, this again would undermine the officer's statement because the victims were too far away to present an immediate threat. In addition, were the three shots fired simultaneously or was there a time delay between the firing of the rounds? The officer is going to have a very difficult time explaining why the female victim was also shot, unless she was assaulting him at the time he fired the rounds. In addition, the officer said he was struggling to regain control of his weapon at the time the first rounds were fired. Assuming the Royal Thai Police have the actual weapon, are the victim's fingerprints on the gun?

5) What was the position of the deceased victim at the time of the shooting? How did the bullet enter the victim's mouth and exit through his shoulder? Unlike some of the speculation of several posters on TV, the larger the caliber of the bullet, the less likely the round would deflect off bone (rather it would shatter the bone and keep going). Usually small caliber rounds (.22, .25 or .32 caliber) are extremely deadly because they travel at high speed and are light enough to bounce around inside the body cavity. A shooting scene reconstructionist (and yes the Royal Thai Police have at least 30 of them because I trained many of them) would be able to determine the path of the three shots that were fired and the relative positions of the three participants in this shooting.

6) What were the results of the toxicology tests? Was the Canadian couple inebriated? What was their blood/alcohol level? Did they have any drugs in their system? Did the officer test positive for alcohol? Was he inebriated? Did he have any drugs in his system at the time he was tested after the shooting?

7) What do the eyewitnesses say? How was their interrogation handled...were they all segregated prior to statements being taken so they couldn't compare their eyewitness accounts? How reliable were these witnesses? Were they sober? Was there any indication that some of them might have been under the effects of narcotics? Where were they located in relation to the shooting? Are these unbiased witnesses?

8) What did the suspect say? We have not seen the full statement of the officer, just a brief synopsis by a spokesman for the Royal Thai Police. Does the officer's statement correspond with the statements of the other eyewitnesses? Was a gunshot residue test taken from the officer's hands, body and clothing and from the victim's hands and clothing to indicate that the officer indeed fired the gun? If gunshot residue is found on the victim's hands, body or clothing, that would indicate that they were in close proximity to the weapon when it was fired, thus helping to corroborate the officer's story. Why did the officer leave the scene? Where did he go? Are there witnesses that can corroborate the officer's story about where he went? The fact that he left the scene of the shooting is something that would raise a red flag with me. Was he dumping illegal narcotics that he might have had on him at the time of the shooting? Did he panic? Was he trying to sober up? Did he switch out guns? The suspect should be extensively questioned about his actions after the shooting?

9) What is the background on the victims and the officer? Is there something in their histories that would indicate that they were prone to this type of circumstance? Did either of the victims have a prior history of assaults on police officers? Did the police officer have other incidents in his career that would support the theory that he had an anger issue? Had he ever shot anyone in the past? Did he have other incidents with Farangs?

10) How transparent will this shooting investigation be? Will the Royal Thai Police attempt to hush up the incident? Or will they present the investigation findings to the public for review?

Since none of us really know all the details of this situation, we can only wait until the Royal Thai Police complete their investigation. I hope they have successfully answered all the questions that I have posed. I'll be watching with great interest to see what happens.

Edited January 9, 2008 by farang prince

[DamianMavis]

The Thai press seems to have dropped the story today which suggests that the police PR version has been readily accepted by the Thai media and the headlines of the Canadian media had no impact. The families will have to fight very hard with their government and MPs to get any attention for the story in Thailand. No doubt the standard operating procedure of witness intimidation and character assassination of the victims is already in full swing and there is no reason to think it won't be highly successful in a small town like Pai. The disinformation about Reisig's wound being to the hip not to the chest, as is clear from the photograph, must be deliberate to suppport the story of accidental discharge (3 of them). It doesn't matter that the medical evidence later contradicts it as the discrepancy will not important later. For now it serves a purpose to downplay the story in the

Thai media.

I wonder if the Canadian Embassy tried to have an independent autopsy done on del Pinto. Normally the police try to prevent this being done on deceased foreign nationals, or mess up the body or hold it so long that nothing can be determined any more. The Pattaya police have routinely done this in the case of the many foreign tourists who have been suspiciously reported dead with heroin overdoses, even though they didn't fit the profile of a heroin addict e.g. middle aged, holding down a regular job with no history of drug abuse. Same thing happened with an American with a history of mental illness in Phuket who allegedly bashed himself to death against the bars in a police cell after being arrested drunk for insulting a policeman.

You are the man Arkady.

I LOVE THAILAND AND THAI PEOPLE! Don't believe me because I so vehemently HATE how they get murderously violent over getting embarassed? There are many beautiful things about Thailand, and a few horrible things (corruption, violence and lack of safety ie. police will NOT protect you and in fact are likely to be the perpetrators.) I'm sorry if I come off as a Thai basher but I just can't stand the violence and corruption.... it wouldnt bother me so much but I worry about my girlfriend CONSTANTLY (she has already been a vicitm many times in this country and I worry its just a matter of time before she is killed) and both her and I are following important careers here in Thailand that neither of us is ready to leave yet.... so I'm left with just worrying.

Damian

[Galong]

Perhaps I can bring a little perspective to this tragic case through the eyes of an experienced homicide detective. In my many years as a homicide detective with a major police department in the United States, I investigated a number of police-related shootings. These were difficult investigations, because usually we would know the officer involved in the shooting and we often were under pressure from department supervisors to justify the shooting and from the media and the public to crucify the officer. It takes tremendous professionalism in order to ignore these outside pressures and conduct a thorough investigation.

Out of more than 30 officer-related shootings that my partner and I investigated, four were determined to be criminal offenses (trial juries acquited three of the four officers in the shootings). Another seven investigations determined that the officer violated departmental policy and in three of those cases, the officer was terminated. In three other cases, the officers resigned. The seventh case, the officer filed an appeal and was re-hired with back wages paid in full. The rest of the shootings were justified.

We are limited to depending on newspaper articles, a brief police statement and an interview with one of the victims to provide the "facts" about the double shooting in Pai. Based on this limited information, the issues would appear to be these:

1) Was the Canadian couple actually inebriated? Did they argue in a public place (the street) and disturb public peace and/or was there an assault by the Canadian man against the woman or the woman against the man?

2) Did the Royal Thai Police officer witness a crime? Was the police officer in uniform or civilian clothes? Did the officer clearly identify himself as a police officer? Was the police officer drunk or had he been drinking off-duty? Does the Royal Thai Police have a policy for their police officers' conduct when they are off-duty? Are officers expected to enforce the law 24/7 or does their law enforcement responsibilities conclude at the end of shift? What is the policy about officers carrying service weapons off-duty?

3) Was the police officer assaulted by one or more of the victims? Did the officer feel his life was in jeopardy? At what point did the officer produce his weapon? Was it a department-issued weapon? What was said between the officer and the shooting victims?

4) The officer claims the shooting was accidental. The number of shots fired would seem to undermine his statement. At what proximity to the victims were the shots fired? Were these contact wounds? Were the shots fired from within six feet from the victims? If the shots were beyond six feet, this again would undermine the officer's statement because the victims were too far away to present an immediate threat. In addition, were the three shots fired simultaneously or was there a time delay between the firing of the rounds? The officer is going to have a very difficult time explaining why the female victim was also shot, unless she was assaulting him at the time he fired the rounds. In addition, the officer said he was struggling to regain control of his weapon at the time the first rounds were fired. Assuming the Royal Thai Police have the actual weapon, are the victim's fingerprints on the gun?

5) What was the position of the deceased victim at the time of the shooting? How did the bullet enter the victim's mouth and exit through his shoulder? Unlike some of the speculation of several posters on TV, the larger the caliber of the bullet, the less likely the round would deflect off bone (rather it would shatter the bone and keep going). Usually small caliber rounds (.22, .25 or .32 caliber) are extremely deadly because they travel at high speed and are light enough to bounce around inside the body cavity. A shooting scene reconstructionist (and yes the Royal Thai Police have at least 30 of them because I trained many of them) would be able to determine the path of the three shots that were fired and the relative positions of the three participants in this shooting.

6) What were the results of the toxicology tests? Was the Canadian couple inebriated? What was their blood/alcohol level? Did they have any drugs in their system? Did the officer test positive for alcohol? Was he inebriated? Did he have any drugs in his system at the time he was tested after the shooting?

7) What do the eyewitnesses say? How was their interrogation handled...were they all segregated prior to statements being taken so they couldn't compare their eyewitness accounts? How reliable were these witnesses? Were they sober? Was there any indication that some of them might have been under the effects of narcotics? Where were they located in relation to the shooting? Are these unbiased witnesses?

8) What did the suspect say? We have not seen the full statement of the officer, just a brief synopsis by a spokesman for the Royal Thai Police. Does the officer's statement correspond with the statements of the other eyewitnesses? Was a gunshot residue test taken from the officer's hands, body and clothing and from the victim's hands and clothing to indicate that the officer indeed fired the gun? If gunshot residue is found on the victim's hands, body or clothing, that would indicate that they were in close proximity to the weapon when it was fired, thus helping to corroborate the officer's story. Why did the officer leave the scene? Where did he go? Are there witnesses that can corroborate the officer's story about where he went? The fact that he left the scene of the shooting is something that would raise a red flag with me. Was he dumping illegal narcotics that he might have had on him at the time of the shooting? Did he panic? Was he trying to sober up? Did he switch out guns? The suspect should be extensively questioned about his actions after the shooting?

9) What is the background on the victims and the officer? Is there something in their histories that would indicate that they were prone to this type of circumstance? Did either of the victims have a prior history of assaults on police officers? Did the police officer have other incidents in his career that would support the theory that he had an anger issue? Had he ever shot anyone in the past? Did he have other incidents with Farangs?

10) How transparent will this shooting investigation be? Will the Royal Thai Police attempt to hush up the incident? Or will they present the investigation findings to the public for review?

Since none of us really know all the details of this situation, we can only wait until the Royal Thai Police complete their investigation. I hope they have successfully answered all the questions that I have posed. I'll be watching with great interest to see what happens.

Absolutely Perfect! It would be nice if these questions were answered in the media, but I'm afraid we'll get a white-washed version. Everything you said here (in the form of questions) would satisfy me (for sure) and most of the other posters (I hope) and the family of the deceased.

Thanks for the posting Farang Prince

[Thai at Heart]

Loss of face is a concept that baffles me, but results in reactions that can be absoutley astounding.

Um yes, many of which either cause or enhance loss of face...but this is LoS, not Europe, so get used to the norm of irrational behaviour.

I never said this was Europe.

But it is undoubtedly true that it is impossible to guage the level of reaction from a Thai when he has supposedly lost face. For a culture that brain washes "jai yen yen" into kids from the youngest age, I have seen it many times, and wondered from where this level of rage and irrational and often supposedly justified feeling of vengeance comes.

Unfortunately it leads to stupid acts such as the one we are all discussing.

[JungleJim]

Freaky long hair, his ex has bizarre balls tatooed around one eye and they are both hanging out in Pai, of all places. Something is probably going on here that no one is talking about; come on, out with it, what's the real deal?

In case you weren't aware, what you have described is the average appearance of the visitors that find themselves in Pai. Not all visitors of course, but many. Pai is yabaland.

You obviously have not been to Pai for a while canuckamuck. It is a far more mainstream tourist destination than it used to be. Yes it has it has a number of blissed out hippy visitors who may or may not take drugs (don't judge a book by its cover). It also now attracts a broad spectrum of other tourists including families, respectable travellers of all ages and a large number of Thai tourists at this time of the year, none of whom have come here for the so-called drug scene. In the past Pai was known as a cheap place to go and get mashed. This is no longer the case. Drugs are far more widespread and available in other tourist hotspots around the country, Koh Pan ngan being a good example. Pai is not a "yabaland" anymore - get your facts straight.

[JungleJim]

Yeah, but his aim was dead on, wasn't it? Very interesting that you are still talking about the pregnancy and fight outside. Is that just a repeat from the article, or is that what the general population in Pai believe? I agree with you about the strange pre-meditated murder charge. - Quoted from Kat.

As regards her pregnancy or not, that is pure speculation. She certainly doesn't look pregnant. Nobody I know in Pai has any information on whether or not this is true. Sounds like it isn't if the hospital has ruled it out.

[sbk]

Yeah, but his aim was dead on, wasn't it? Very interesting that you are still talking about the pregnancy and fight outside. Is that just a repeat from the article, or is that what the general population in Pai believe? I agree with you about the strange pre-meditated murder charge. - Quoted from Kat.

As regards her pregnancy or not, that is pure speculation. She certainly doesn't look pregnant. Nobody I know in Pai has any information on whether or not this is true. Sounds like it isn't if the hospital has ruled it out.

So you are stating her pregnancy in this post here, based on the news article and not on any first hand knowledge?

[JungleJim]

The whole of Thailand is awash with metamphetamines.

The police have done a pretty effective job of cleaning the town up. Any visitor who went to the waterfall "drugs" village 4 or 5 years back will testify to being offered a whole range of different substances by numerous Lahu hilltribe folk who would jump out of the bushes in staggering numbers as you approached the falls. This ain't the case no more. Many of them have either been shot or arrested in recent years and as a result the hardcore few that persist in dealing are scared and far more cautious about their activities. Because of the war on drugs and the resultant scarcity of drugs that used to be in abundance, prices have sky rocketed, making it a far less desirable place for drug takers to get high. Thankfully this has reduced the number of undesirable smackheads, yaba fiends and dope heads to a significantly smaller level.

[JungleJim]

Yeah, but his aim was dead on, wasn't it? Very interesting that you are still talking about the pregnancy and fight outside. Is that just a repeat from the article, or is that what the general population in Pai believe? I agree with you about the strange pre-meditated murder charge. - Quoted from Kat.

As regards her pregnancy or not, that is pure speculation. She certainly doesn't look pregnant. Nobody I know in Pai has any information on whether or not this is true. Sounds like it isn't if the hospital has ruled it out.

So you are stating her pregnancy in this post here, based on the news article and not on any first hand knowledge?

I have no first hand knowledge on whether or not she is pregnant. I foolishly assumed that part of the article to be correct. As i said pure speculation

[canuckamuck]

Freaky long hair, his ex has bizarre balls tatooed around one eye and they are both hanging out in Pai, of all places. Something is probably going on here that no one is talking about; come on, out with it, what's the real deal?

In case you weren't aware, what you have described is the average appearance of the visitors that find themselves in Pai. Not all visitors of course, but many. Pai is yabaland.

You obviously have not been to Pai for a while canuckamuck. It is a far more mainstream tourist destination than it used to be. Yes it has it has a number of blissed out hippy visitors who may or may not take drugs (don't judge a book by its cover). It also now attracts a broad spectrum of other tourists including families, respectable travellers of all ages and a large number of Thai tourists at this time of the year, none of whom have come here for the so-called drug scene. In the past Pai was known as a cheap place to go and get mashed. This is no longer the case. Drugs are far more widespread and available in other tourist hotspots around the country, Koh Pan ngan being a good example. Pai is not a "yabaland" anymore - get your facts straight.

OK yabaland minor then, I was commenting mainly on sunrise07's surprise at their appearence. I'm saying dreads and other nouveau hippie motifs are not an unusual sight in Pai.

Edited January 9, 2008 by canuckamuck

[sabaijai]

The whole of Thailand is awash with metamphetamines.

The police have done a pretty effective job of cleaning the town up. Any visitor who went to the waterfall "drugs" village 4 or 5 years back will testify to being offered a whole range of different substances by numerous Lahu hilltribe folk who would jump out of the bushes in staggering numbers as you approached the falls. This ain't the case no more. Many of them have either been shot or arrested in recent years and as a result the hardcore few that persist in dealing are scared and far more cautious about their activities. Because of the war on drugs and the resultant scarcity of drugs that used to be in abundance, prices have sky rocketed, making it a far less desirable place for drug takers to get high. Thankfully this has reduced the number of undesirable smackheads, yaba fiends and dope heads to a significantly smaller level.

Lisu, not Lahu, in the case of the hilltribe drug vendors who used to wait in the bushes near the waterfall.

[chanman]

(she has already been a vicitm many times in this country and I worry its just a matter of time before she is killed)

[JungleJim]

The whole of Thailand is awash with metamphetamines.

The police have done a pretty effective job of cleaning the town up. Any visitor who went to the waterfall "drugs" village 4 or 5 years back will testify to being offered a whole range of different substances by numerous Lahu hilltribe folk who would jump out of the bushes in staggering numbers as you approached the falls. This ain't the case no more. Many of them have either been shot or arrested in recent years and as a result the hardcore few that persist in dealing are scared and far more cautious about their activities. Because of the war on drugs and the resultant scarcity of drugs that used to be in abundance, prices have sky rocketed, making it a far less desirable place for drug takers to get high. Thankfully this has reduced the number of undesirable smackheads, yaba fiends and dope heads to a significantly smaller level.

Lisu, not Lahu, in the case of the hilltribe drug vendors who used to wait in the bushes near the waterfall.

It is a Lahu village just before the falls. There is not a Lisu costume in sight! There is a Lisu village 2km before this next to the chinese village, but they don't openly sell drugs.

[JungleJim]

Freaky long hair, his ex has bizarre balls tatooed around one eye and they are both hanging out in Pai, of all places. Something is probably going on here that no one is talking about; come on, out with it, what's the real deal?

In case you weren't aware, what you have described is the average appearance of the visitors that find themselves in Pai. Not all visitors of course, but many. Pai is yabaland.

You obviously have not been to Pai for a while canuckamuck. It is a far more mainstream tourist destination than it used to be. Yes it has it has a number of blissed out hippy visitors who may or may not take drugs (don't judge a book by its cover). It also now attracts a broad spectrum of other tourists including families, respectable travellers of all ages and a large number of Thai tourists at this time of the year, none of whom have come here for the so-called drug scene. In the past Pai was known as a cheap place to go and get mashed. This is no longer the case. Drugs are far more widespread and available in other tourist hotspots around the country, Koh Pan ngan being a good example. Pai is not a "yabaland" anymore - get your facts straight.

OK yabaland minor then, I was commenting mainly on sunrise07's surprise at their appearence. I'm saying dreads and other nouveau hippie motifs are not an unusual sight in Pai.

Fair enough. You do see a number of hippies in town. Mostly of the trust fund type who don't have to work because daddy transfers cash every week. A great addition to the mix they are with their worldly wise insights and "lets all save the planet without actually getting off our <deleted>" attitudes.

[sabaijai]

The whole of Thailand is awash with metamphetamines.

The police have done a pretty effective job of cleaning the town up. Any visitor who went to the waterfall "drugs" village 4 or 5 years back will testify to being offered a whole range of different substances by numerous Lahu hilltribe folk who would jump out of the bushes in staggering numbers as you approached the falls. This ain't the case no more. Many of them have either been shot or arrested in recent years and as a result the hardcore few that persist in dealing are scared and far more cautious about their activities. Because of the war on drugs and the resultant scarcity of drugs that used to be in abundance, prices have sky rocketed, making it a far less desirable place for drug takers to get high. Thankfully this has reduced the number of undesirable smackheads, yaba fiends and dope heads to a significantly smaller level.

Lisu, not Lahu, in the case of the hilltribe drug vendors who used to wait in the bushes near the waterfall.

It is a Lahu village just before the falls. There is not a Lisu costume in sight! There is a Lisu village 2km before this next to the chinese village, but they don't openly sell drugs.

The village is Lahu (and still active in local sales), but the vendors who used to hawk contraband along the roadside were mostly Lisu, and wore Lisu costume.

[Sao Jiang Mai]

As none of us really know what went down, I suppose we have to rely on the media. I must say, in defence of the media, that it is a scary task in this country. The much-maligned Drummond is a case in point. I worked for and with him during the three months following Kirsty Jones's murder and grew to hugely admire his professionalism and integrity. He dared and dares still to go where few reporters, especially Thai, will venture. I learnt so many lessons working with him, but importantly, I learnt that I would never be able to do what he does. I simply don't have the balls. Threats from police, threats from all sorts of people, possible career repercussions and personal ones to boot. Can you imagine a local Chiang Mai Reporter - or the Pai Post! - digging into this matter? The story has got to be worth risking your career for because even little old me got threatened by the Fifth Region police after Kirsty Jones.

Obviously the initial reports, which came solely from the Pai police, didn't gel with the reports from the victim, so it will be a while before we can untangle the web of he said, she said.

Anyway, our intrepid reporter is in Pai as we speak, so let's hope that we get some more clarity on this matter.

[jackr]

Loss of face is a concept that baffles me, but results in reactions that can be absoutley astounding.

Um yes, many of which either cause or enhance loss of face...but this is LoS, not Europe, so get used to the norm of irrational behaviour.

I never said this was Europe.

But it is undoubtedly true that it is impossible to guage the level of reaction from a Thai when he has supposedly lost face. For a culture that brain washes "jai yen yen" into kids from the youngest age, I have seen it many times, and wondered from where this level of rage and irrational and often supposedly justified feeling of vengeance comes.

Unfortunately it leads to stupid acts such as the one we are all discussing.

More than likely from the aforementioned 'jai yen yen' drilled into them from year dot. If one has been told that 'release' is bad then I guess it all comes out in one go when they can no longer hold it in.

As much as I love it, Muang Thai really needs to get a hold on this shit, or it will forever be stuck in the third world non-entity bracket. The gov needs to rip through the cowboy police force with Thaksin-style zeal.

[Eddie67]

Tis posting is interesting reading indeed ...

First of all, sad that someone is dead.

I mostly agree with the wievs about understanding it all, from the perspectives of different cultures. In the west, we are mostly conserned with the law, as in "Police think they are above the law" in an earlier post. But this is a western phenonema. Law is very dear to the west, but not so in Thailand. Living and doing business in Thailand and other countries in Asia, including Japan, shows that the law is second. Any document signed in Thailand is worth around the value of the sheet itself, a bit like the Indians in the old Amerika. So law doesnt mean a thing here. The society is NOT based upon the law, as in the west.

I personally think it has to do with behavior, which caused the incident. I am not defending the shooting, but western culture is about words - attacking by words as it is. That includes yelling, shouting, bragging about drunk. Asians dont shout when they are drunk, at least I never ever experienced this. They can be noisy also, but in a not-so-direct manner. Westerns like to vent their emotions through this shouting, so they can feel a little bit at ease. But this is not a behavior who is accepted or understood at all in Thailand or any other South East Asian countries that I know of. It is foreign to them mostly. So for them, if a western is entering the stage shouting and offending in a high volume, it must feel very invading, to say the least.

And please, everyone, maybe I am naivee and all, but this is an effort from my point of view to tell the differences in culture or behavior if you like, not taking side and defending anyone.

From my 2 years of living in Chiang Mai and running a business, I was very fortunate to be friends with a former chief police woman, and her husbond which is a politician in Chiang Mai. Through their eyes I got to see the foriegners in another way also. One funny story I remember is this former police woman was the owner of a big guesthuse with a pool. One night, around 3am, two foreign guys came home qiute drunk and loud, and they wanted to take a swim. Splashing around in the pool, they where told to please stop swimming. Thay got angry, taking away their fun, but being very selfish not considering other guests. In their room, they where still shouting and swearing over the unfriendly Thais. (I was there, I know ..). Finally, the police woman got irritated, picked up her 2 guns, and rushed into the room load and clear. The faces of the noisy ones changed colour, and fell very silent indeed.

This was the laughing news of the next week by the Thais, for them this was a very funny story. For westerners, like myself, it would not have been.

Peace.

Eddie.

[Arkady]

Perhaps I can bring a little perspective to this tragic case through the eyes of an experienced homicide detective. In my many years as a homicide detective with a major police department in the United States, I investigated a number of police-related shootings. These were difficult investigations, because usually we would know the officer involved in the shooting and we often were under pressure from department supervisors to justify the shooting and from the media and the public to crucify the officer. It takes tremendous professionalism in order to ignore these outside pressures and conduct a thorough investigation.

Out of more than 30 officer-related shootings that my partner and I investigated, four were determined to be criminal offenses (trial juries acquited three of the four officers in the shootings). Another seven investigations determined that the officer violated departmental policy and in three of those cases, the officer was terminated. In three other cases, the officers resigned. The seventh case, the officer filed an appeal and was re-hired with back wages paid in full. The rest of the shootings were justified.

We are limited to depending on newspaper articles, a brief police statement and an interview with one of the victims to provide the "facts" about the double shooting in Pai. Based on this limited information, the issues would appear to be these:

1) Was the Canadian couple actually inebriated? Did they argue in a public place (the street) and disturb public peace and/or was there an assault by the Canadian man against the woman or the woman against the man?

2) Did the Royal Thai Police officer witness a crime? Was the police officer in uniform or civilian clothes? Did the officer clearly identify himself as a police officer? Was the police officer drunk or had he been drinking off-duty? Does the Royal Thai Police have a policy for their police officers' conduct when they are off-duty? Are officers expected to enforce the law 24/7 or does their law enforcement responsibilities conclude at the end of shift? What is the policy about officers carrying service weapons off-duty?

3) Was the police officer assaulted by one or more of the victims? Did the officer feel his life was in jeopardy? At what point did the officer produce his weapon? Was it a department-issued weapon? What was said between the officer and the shooting victims?

4) The officer claims the shooting was accidental. The number of shots fired would seem to undermine his statement. At what proximity to the victims were the shots fired? Were these contact wounds? Were the shots fired from within six feet from the victims? If the shots were beyond six feet, this again would undermine the officer's statement because the victims were too far away to present an immediate threat. In addition, were the three shots fired simultaneously or was there a time delay between the firing of the rounds? The officer is going to have a very difficult time explaining why the female victim was also shot, unless she was assaulting him at the time he fired the rounds. In addition, the officer said he was struggling to regain control of his weapon at the time the first rounds were fired. Assuming the Royal Thai Police have the actual weapon, are the victim's fingerprints on the gun?

5) What was the position of the deceased victim at the time of the shooting? How did the bullet enter the victim's mouth and exit through his shoulder? Unlike some of the speculation of several posters on TV, the larger the caliber of the bullet, the less likely the round would deflect off bone (rather it would shatter the bone and keep going). Usually small caliber rounds (.22, .25 or .32 caliber) are extremely deadly because they travel at high speed and are light enough to bounce around inside the body cavity. A shooting scene reconstructionist (and yes the Royal Thai Police have at least 30 of them because I trained many of them) would be able to determine the path of the three shots that were fired and the relative positions of the three participants in this shooting.

6) What were the results of the toxicology tests? Was the Canadian couple inebriated? What was their blood/alcohol level? Did they have any drugs in their system? Did the officer test positive for alcohol? Was he inebriated? Did he have any drugs in his system at the time he was tested after the shooting?

7) What do the eyewitnesses say? How was their interrogation handled...were they all segregated prior to statements being taken so they couldn't compare their eyewitness accounts? How reliable were these witnesses? Were they sober? Was there any indication that some of them might have been under the effects of narcotics? Where were they located in relation to the shooting? Are these unbiased witnesses?

8) What did the suspect say? We have not seen the full statement of the officer, just a brief synopsis by a spokesman for the Royal Thai Police. Does the officer's statement correspond with the statements of the other eyewitnesses? Was a gunshot residue test taken from the officer's hands, body and clothing and from the victim's hands and clothing to indicate that the officer indeed fired the gun? If gunshot residue is found on the victim's hands, body or clothing, that would indicate that they were in close proximity to the weapon when it was fired, thus helping to corroborate the officer's story. Why did the officer leave the scene? Where did he go? Are there witnesses that can corroborate the officer's story about where he went? The fact that he left the scene of the shooting is something that would raise a red flag with me. Was he dumping illegal narcotics that he might have had on him at the time of the shooting? Did he panic? Was he trying to sober up? Did he switch out guns? The suspect should be extensively questioned about his actions after the shooting?

9) What is the background on the victims and the officer? Is there something in their histories that would indicate that they were prone to this type of circumstance? Did either of the victims have a prior history of assaults on police officers? Did the police officer have other incidents in his career that would support the theory that he had an anger issue? Had he ever shot anyone in the past? Did he have other incidents with Farangs?

10) How transparent will this shooting investigation be? Will the Royal Thai Police attempt to hush up the incident? Or will they present the investigation findings to the public for review?

Since none of us really know all the details of this situation, we can only wait until the Royal Thai Police complete their investigation. I hope they have successfully answered all the questions that I have posed. I'll be watching with great interest to see what happens.

Absolutely Perfect! It would be nice if these questions were answered in the media, but I'm afraid we'll get a white-washed version. Everything you said here (in the form of questions) would satisfy me (for sure) and most of the other posters (I hope) and the family of the deceased.

Thanks for the posting Farang Prince

An excellent informative post Farang Prince. Unfortunately many of these important questions will never be asked, let alone answered. Here are some of my ideas on some of your questions.

2) As far as I know it is illegal for police for carry fire arms off duty and out of uniform, unless they have a concealed carry permit. These are quite strictly controlled in Thailand and wouldn't be given to a regular cop in a uniformed unit. Mainly plained clothed cops who do under cover work and senior officers would get them. The reality is that it is standard practice for police and military to carry concealed weapons off-duty and in practice the law is not enforced. In the case of the military the situation is further complicated by an ancient law that prevents the police from arresting military without permission from their commanding officer and a judge advocate present. Many police and military moonlight off duty as gun toting security officers for entertainment places, wealthy businessmen and gangsters. I have seen rare cases where police and military have been charged with illegal possession of firearms off duty, sometimes after a shoot out with other police or military.

3) It is unlikely to have been a department issued weapon as it is a point of honor for Thai police to buy their own side arms rather than use the department's ancient .38s. They seem to be allowed to use any type of pistol on the market and there is no attempt at standarisation. Most seem to carry either 9mm semi autos or .38 revolvers but you can also see small caliber hand guns and .45 semi autos on their hips. Incidentally the police reckon that most Thai paid assassins have been trained by the military and like to use .45s which they refer to as 11mm. Their press releases will often say that it couldn't have been a professional hit man because he used a 9mm.

4) The suspect fled the scene. This is standard pratice in Thailand. Police and influential criminals know that they have to get away to destroy evidence, let powder marks go away, consult friends who know what to do, concoct a story and negotiate bail before giving themselves up. His friends would have cleaned up the gun, if they thought about the point of the possible lack of Del Pinto's prints and probably several of them would have also handled it after taking it "for safe keeping".

5) I don't know if they have a shooting scene reconstructist in Pai or in Mae Hong Song province but it is one of the least developed provinces and probably has the least police resources. As I have posted elsewhere in this thread, there are very few forensic pathologists in Thailand and almost certainly none in Mae Hong Song. The police call out regular doctors to crime scenes who have no training in forensic pathology and normally see their role as supporting the police who pay them to come out.

6) It has not been reported how long it took the killer to surrender but the time lag must have been enough for him to sober up and work out his story. So no likelihood of a toxicology report on him. They may exist on the victims.

7) Witness interrogation. Procedures for police investigators in Thailand seem to be rather lax. For example, female rape victims are often interrogated by male investigators which would be considered outrageous in a developed country. Can't say what procedures are used in the Pai police station. An overriding concern would be intimidation of witnesses in a country where poor people are terrified of the police and intractable witnesses often don't live long enough to testify.

8) No statement from the suspect yet. He has probably been advised to use his right to remain silent until the case reaches court.

9) No information about background of victims or suspect except another poster who says he lives Pai said the suspect had a drink problem and had been suspended from carrying a fire arm prior to the incident for an unknown reason.

10) Hopefully the police investigation will be transparent and the findings will be presented to the public. We can but hope, even though in many cases where the suspect is a policeman or an influential person this has not been the case and key evidence has mysteriously been lost or destroyed. As you probably know, the Thai justice system if fairly creaky too. There are no juries and judges are law graduates appointed straight to the bench after a brief training. Young judges have to twiddle their thumbs in provincial postings for several years until a plumb job in Bangkok comes up. Cases are not usually heard continuously (more like once a month) and it is common for judges to be replaced several times on the same case. They are known to place a great deal of weight on police evidence and are very susceptible to inducement and intimidation.

[john b good]

As someone acquainted with the principal characters involved in the case, as well as the witnesses, I find the third-party eyewitness reports more reliable-sounding than any other testimony yet available. The two Thais I spoke to didn't seem afraid at all. But if they do have reason to fear for their lives, why isn't Reisig similarly fearful, since her story diverges most (from that of third-party witnesses and the cop)?

BTW the policemen had his weapon with him because he had just finished his shift. Pai residents who know the cop say it's highly unlikely he would fire unless provoked. Unlike the victims, he apparently has no history of violence in Pai (till now, obviously, and of course the shootings were not warranted in any event). Still there's more to this story than what's coming to us via quickly filed newspaper reports.

Hmm are you serious? Asking why a FALANG born and bred in Canada is not going to be easily cowed and pressured by the thought of Thai police coming to kill her? Thais KNOW they are at the mercy of thier police, ESPECIALLY the poor ones. Falangs have a sense of justice and morality that most Thais do not understand, not because they are morally corrupt but because it simply doesnt work that way in their culture. If I saw my friend get murdered before my eyes and I was hospitalised I would be thinking purely about justice and righteousness. But that is how I was raised in Canada. Even if I was fearful, I would not allow a murderer to get off out of fear, I would be willing to further risk my life and stand by the truth, but maybe that is just me. And possibly, Reisig.

Please if you know Reisig and the cop personally like you said, tell us about them. I would not accept what the witnesses said wholeheartedly due to the fear of retribution from the powers around them, but if you know the killer and vicitim I would like to know about that and would be willing to accept your experiences with them.

Damian

You know I get a little bit fed up with your posts. Whenever you have a chance you are attacking Thailand and the people who post positive things about Thailand.

People like you and Kat amaze me. At least she left the country. You are still here complaining like an old woman!!

Re your above point. Someone has come on and said that they personally know Reisig and the cop, yet you choose to believe what is in your own mind without any substance. Personally I accept the 'character' references given by sabaijai. I believe that the truth out there is probably somewhere in between what both parties have stated.

My problem in all of this is that the police, unfortunately are wholly corrupt and totally inadequate in solving cases such as this.

Crime scenes not preserved, witnesses not interviewed either correctly or not at all.

There is no excuse for a so called trained professional to kill in cold blood, if indeed that was the case.

It does seem however that the aggrieved were not as innocent as first thought.

I am not condoning to this unfortunate death, but it would seem as though the behaviour of these 2 farangs was a contributing factor to the death.

In any case Damian, do me a favour and stop jumping on the bandwagon trying to attack Thailand at every opportunity you have

JacknDanny makes a pretty good point here. Posters that attack Thai society or the Thai people to incite others with a more moderate view seems divisive. Why would anyone with such a contemptuous opinion of the whole country by here at all. While we all (or most of us) want justice the whole story is not available here. The CSI Syndrome is alive and well on Thai Visa as usual and many of the "experts" here think supposition and rumor justify whacking the suspect to save money and to serve some brand of justice. This is a genuine tragedy that will be repeated until changes are made in the basic threads of society here and the police actually receive some relevant training. To all the amateur detectives out there: Preface you opinions with you CV and we will be able to tell the arm chair detectives that have received their training from television shows from those who actually have been involved in major criminal investigations.

From wot I have read thus far Damian has hit the nail fairly squarely on the head. These incidents are not isolated events here (in this country) and they have no place in any society that claims to be civilised.

Virgil, Morgan, Wyatt and Doc, would feel right at home here except that the fight would be a fairer event all round. I don't recollect anyone at the OK sticking the gun in someones mouth (and pulling the trigger)

There are cowards in every society but "just don't get me started"

[john b good]

In my experences here over the last 23 years is that if you mess with a local Thai, there are bound to be consequences....

You got that in one BUT it don't make it right. And we should never ever allow ourselves to accept that it is right.

[aaaaaa]

As tragic as this story appears to be, it is a relatively isolated incident and will have little impact on tourism.

Indeed !

Travel News in Norway names Thailand best tourist country

The Travel News magazine in Norway named Thailand "the Best Tourist Country in the World," Thai Foreign Ministry spokesman Tharit Jarungwat said Wednesday.

He said the Thai ambassador in Oslo, Julpong Nonsrichai, represented the country to receive the Grand Travel Award 2008 from the magazine.

The spokesman said Thailand had received the award for five consecutive years.

The Nation

although I think Carly Reisig, her family and family of Delpinto,

and perhaps Canadian embassy won't agree

with this opinion of "The Travel News magazine"

[meemiathai]

As someone acquainted with the principal characters involved in the case, as well as the witnesses, I find the third-party eyewitness reports more reliable-sounding than any other testimony yet available. The two Thais I spoke to didn't seem afraid at all. But if they do have reason to fear for their lives, why isn't Reisig similarly fearful, since her story diverges most (from that of third-party witnesses and the cop)?

BTW the policemen had his weapon with him because he had just finished his shift. Pai residents who know the cop say it's highly unlikely he would fire unless provoked. Unlike the victims, he apparently has no history of violence in Pai (till now, obviously, and of course the shootings were not warranted in any event). Still there's more to this story than what's coming to us via quickly filed newspaper reports.

Hmm are you serious? Asking why a FALANG born and bred in Canada is not going to be easily cowed and pressured by the thought of Thai police coming to kill her? Thais KNOW they are at the mercy of thier police, ESPECIALLY the poor ones. Falangs have a sense of justice and morality that most Thais do not understand, not because they are morally corrupt but because it simply doesnt work that way in their culture. If I saw my friend get murdered before my eyes and I was hospitalised I would be thinking purely about justice and righteousness. But that is how I was raised in Canada. Even if I was fearful, I would not allow a murderer to get off out of fear, I would be willing to further risk my life and stand by the truth, but maybe that is just me. And possibly, Reisig.

Please if you know Reisig and the cop personally like you said, tell us about them. I would not accept what the witnesses said wholeheartedly due to the fear of retribution from the powers around them, but if you know the killer and vicitim I would like to know about that and would be willing to accept your experiences with them.

Damian

You know I get a little bit fed up with your posts. Whenever you have a chance you are attacking Thailand and the people who post positive things about Thailand.

People like you and Kat amaze me. At least she left the country. You are still here complaining like an old woman!!

Re your above point. Someone has come on and said that they personally know Reisig and the cop, yet you choose to believe what is in your own mind without any substance. Personally I accept the 'character' references given by sabaijai. I believe that the truth out there is probably somewhere in between what both parties have stated.

My problem in all of this is that the police, unfortunately are wholly corrupt and totally inadequate in solving cases such as this.

Crime scenes not preserved, witnesses not interviewed either correctly or not at all.

There is no excuse for a so called trained professional to kill in cold blood, if indeed that was the case.

It does seem however that the aggrieved were not as innocent as first thought.

I am not condoning to this unfortunate death, but it would seem as though the behaviour of these 2 farangs was a contributing factor to the death.

In any case Damian, do me a favour and stop jumping on the bandwagon trying to attack Thailand at every opportunity you have

I think it is maybe because he is young. Like when I was younger, always thinking of things as clearly cut as black and white.

Reminds me of playing cops and robbers when I was a kid. He has a sense of justice anyway. Just that things are often actually a little more complicated than it seems like in life, aren't they?

One thing I want to point out and has nothing to do with the victims in this case is, I have seen quite a few very wicked farangs in my life, so farangs are not always innocent. But of course there are some thai bullying bastard police out there as well.