Two Tourists In Pai Shot By A Police Officer

[longway]

i understand the word reference perfectly well. as for lecturing, the allegation is so hypocritical its laughable. if you want to speculate pls carry on.

execution and murder are not fully interchangable, you know that as well as i do. an execution also suggests that someone ordered the death.

as for stepping out of the thread i will do so quite happily.

Edited February 14, 2008 by longway

[kat]

i understand the word reference perfectly well. as for lecturing, the allegation is so hypocritical its laughable. if you want to speculate pls carry on.

execution and murder are not fully interchangable, you know that as well as i do. an execution also suggests that someone ordered the death.

as for stepping out of the thread i will do so quite happily.

No, you clearly do not understand the word, the word reference, and as a consequence the full extent of my point. Not all murders can be called executions, but all executions are murder (except if you consider capital punishment to be exempt). Execution by order or assassination is but one meaning of the word. Capital punishment is another. The "unlawful premeditated killing of a human being by a human being" is the operative definition here.

For example, there are obvious degrees, types, and motivations for murder. In the Kanchanaburi double murder of Vanessa Arscott and Adam Lloyd, one could argue that the first killing of the boyfriend after a heated exchange and loss of face was a classic case of passion-fueled murder. However, the calculated and methodical murder of Vanessa could be argued to be a fully conscious, cold-blooded and pragmatic execution of a potential witness by a cop. So naturally, we can all distinguish how murder and execution are not wholly different or fully inter-changeable, can't we?

The police and power structure of Thailand have a long and distinguished career of extortion, witness intimidation, murder, and execution. Some will be of the ordered assassin or hit variety which you choose to exclusively focus on, and some will be of the cold-blooded, calculating, premeditated, results-driven variety, of a lone cop with a mess to clean up and little fear of consequences. We are all waiting for the full results of this investigation to be reported, but based on what we have already heard, it is not so far-fetched to consider that Carly Reisig could have been an attempted murder, the Thai boyfriend was simply overlooked in this moment of a "heated accident", and Del Pinto was murdered in cold-blood in a calculated attempt to eliminate or EXECUTE a potential witness.

This definition or view of things is as valid and relevant at this point as any other. Of course, like any other, it is also subject to change based on the full explanation of forensics and the ongoing investigation, which is why I use the conditional term, "IF". And please spare me your sanctimonious stance on speculation. I am not inventing new facts, just making a different inference based on what has been presented. If you can't deal with varying inferences, then no you shouldn't be on a thread discussing it.

In case the last definition and list of related words and synonyms was not clear: (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/execution)

7. executionexecution - unlawful premeditated killing of a human being by a human being

murder, slaying

homicide - the killing of a human being by another human being

assassination - murder of a public figure by surprise attack

bloodshed, gore - the shedding of blood resulting in murder; "he avenged the bloodshed of his kinsmen"

contract killing - a murder carried out on agreement with a hired killer

parricide - the murder of your own father or mother

mariticide - the murder of a husband by his wife

fratricide - the murder of your sibling

uxoricide - the murder of a wife by her husband

filicide - the murder of your own son or daughter

liquidation, elimination - the murder of a competitor

carnage, mass murder, massacre, slaughter, butchery - the savage and excessive killing of many people

lynching - putting a person to death by mob action without due process of law

regicide - the act of killing a king

dry-gulching - the act of killing from ambush

hit - a murder carried out by an underworld syndicate; "it has all the earmarks of a Mafia hit"

infanticide - murdering an infant

shoot-down - murder by shooting someone down in cold blood

tyrannicide - killing a tyrant

thuggee - murder and robbery by thugs

[sabaijai]

i understand the word reference perfectly well. as for lecturing, the allegation is so hypocritical its laughable. if you want to speculate pls carry on.

execution and murder are not fully interchangable, you know that as well as i do. an execution also suggests that someone ordered the death.

as for stepping out of the thread i will do so quite happily.

No, you clearly do not understand the word, the word reference, and as a consequence the full extent of my point. Not all murders can be called executions, but all executions are murder (except if you consider capital punishment to be exempt). Execution by order or assassination is but one meaning of the word. Capital punishment is another. The "unlawful premeditated killing of a human being by a human being" is the operative definition here.

For example, there are obvious degrees, types, and motivations for murder. In the Kanchanaburi double murder of Vanessa Arscott and Adam Lloyd, one could argue that the first killing of the boyfriend after a heated exchange and loss of face was a classic case of passion-fueled murder. However, the calculated and methodical murder of Vanessa could be argued to be a fully conscious, cold-blooded and pragmatic execution of a potential witness by a cop. So naturally, we can all distinguish how murder and execution are not wholly different or fully inter-changeable, can't we?

The police and power structure of Thailand have a long and distinguished career of extortion, witness intimidation, murder, and execution. Some will be of the ordered assassin or hit variety which you choose to exclusively focus on, and some will be of the cold-blooded, calculating, premeditated, results-driven variety, of a lone cop with a mess to clean up and little fear of consequences. We are all waiting for the full results of this investigation to be reported, but based on what we have already heard, it is not so far-fetched to consider that Carly Reisig could have been an attempted murder, the Thai boyfriend was simply overlooked in this moment of a "heated accident", and Del Pinto was murdered in cold-blood in a calculated attempt to eliminate or EXECUTE a potential witness.

This definition or view of things is as valid and relevant at this point as any other. Of course, like any other, it is also subject to change based on the full explanation of forensics and the ongoing investigation, which is why I use the conditional term, "IF". And please spare me your sanctimonious stance on speculation. I am not inventing new facts, just making a different inference based on what has been presented. If you can't deal with varying inferences, then no you shouldn't be on a thread discussing it.

In case the last definition and list of related words and synonyms was not clear: (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/execution)

7. executionexecution - unlawful premeditated killing of a human being by a human being

murder, slaying

homicide - the killing of a human being by another human being

assassination - murder of a public figure by surprise attack

bloodshed, gore - the shedding of blood resulting in murder; "he avenged the bloodshed of his kinsmen"

contract killing - a murder carried out on agreement with a hired killer

parricide - the murder of your own father or mother

mariticide - the murder of a husband by his wife

fratricide - the murder of your sibling

uxoricide - the murder of a wife by her husband

filicide - the murder of your own son or daughter

liquidation, elimination - the murder of a competitor

carnage, mass murder, massacre, slaughter, butchery - the savage and excessive killing of many people

lynching - putting a person to death by mob action without due process of law

regicide - the act of killing a king

dry-gulching - the act of killing from ambush

hit - a murder carried out by an underworld syndicate; "it has all the earmarks of a Mafia hit"

infanticide - murdering an infant

shoot-down - murder by shooting someone down in cold blood

tyrannicide - killing a tyrant

thuggee - murder and robbery by thugs

You're following a prescriptionist agenda here. From the descriptionist perspective it's common usage that counts, and in common usage 'execution' does not mean what you or Andrew Drummond want it to mean. That doesn't mean it isn't occasionally - I would say rarely - used that way. But I think you will find relatively few citations for its use as a synonym for murder, without an order. Few top-level newspaper or magazine editors I know would accept 'execution' in an article except when associated with an order (and that would include capital punishment, by the way) or when the killings appear to have been carried out by order, as in 'execution-style' Even then, 'execution-style' does not mean 'execution'.

But let us not quibble about vocabulary. It's obvious that the term's use here (by Kat) and in print (by Andrew Drummond), with regard to the shooting of Del Pinto and Reisig, is purely for sensationalist effect.

Longway was absolutely correct when he wrote:

using the word execution is quite a dramatic term to use and gives the wrong idea about the nature of the killing. at this stage it looks like it was done on the spur of the moment.

[sabaijai]

Today's report from the court.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/02/08...al_30064725.php

10/10 to Andrew Drummond.

This is a little more up to date. Just in from AD Dr. of Physics today in a coma after being shot in Chiang Mai....nationality according to tipster..Canadian!

You heard it here first!

You sound absolutely delighted with yourself.

[sabaijai]

In a January, 2008 editorial published in Chiang Mai CityLife (submitted in December, 2007),[16] anonymous author "A Tourist" eerily anticipates the January, 2008 shooting in his/her strongly-worded objection to excessive police actions in Pai:

From Wikipedia

"I have noticed another significant change over the last year, which is the reason for writing this letter. The method of law enforcement in this small town needs to be seriously examined....I accept that changes are necessary. I also agree that noise pollution should be carefully monitored and controlled, as should drug abuse and any other illegal acts or unpleasant kinds of behaviour, but we ought not to be scared to leave our homes (or guesthouses)! ... One Saturday in particular remains in my memory, where several police officers decided to inspect a party at a bar in town. I believe that they were looking for drugs. I along with many other tourists was especially shocked to see that one officer was carrying a machine gun...This kind of behaviour is likely to scare tourists and leave very negative impressions on them with regards to Pai town as a holiday destination...The police are also actively confiscating mother (sic) vehicles, testing individuals at random for drugs and alcohol abuse, detaining owners of restaurants and bars for remaining open past the agreed time, and generally making a lot of noise in a relatively quiet town that did not appear to have many problems beforehand....The increased police presence is clearly visible and does not, in my opinion, make Pai town look like a place one would like to visit. There is also a general feeling of unrest here and I feel that it is quite obvious to the tourist travelling through. The police are unapproachable and menacing. This has a strong negative impact on the atmosphere here in Pai town. The previously friendly and welcoming town appears to have changed into a place where everyone is afraid to even walk down the street in case they are accused of doing something wrong. Should the police not be employed to protect civilians? Should they not be approachable in case I or someone else requires some help? They are certainly not even close to doing what a police force is meant to do."

That is in the Wikipedia entry? Terrible! Between Pattaya's entry and that of Pai, Wikipedia makes it seem as if Pattaya is the place to go relax after your visit to the police state of Pai. I like Wikipedia, but it's obviously easy for someone with an agenda, the time and inclination to spin an entry's content completely.

Sabaijai, perhaps you could take a random sampling of 10 people walking down a Pai street and ask each of them to gauge their level of fear while they're doing so. My guess is the risible assertion that the "previously friendly and welcoming town appears to have changed into a place where everyone is afraid to even walk down the street in case they are accused of doing something wrong" would be proven false pretty quickly.

Yes 100% false. Whoever wrote the Wiki stub obviously has some sort of agenda to tar Pai for whatever reason. No one I know has ever been 'afraid to even walk down the street' there. Certainly Chiang Mai has a higher per-capita crime rate, for example.

[sabaijai]

I don't think 'execution' is the correct term here, as it implies killing by order of someone else (eg, mafia, government, etc). Isn't 'murder' good enough? Not sure there's a crime called 'execution'

execution

noun

1. putting a condemned person to death

2. the act of performing; of doing something successfully; using knowledge as distinguished from merely possessing it; "they criticised his performance as mayor"; "experience generally improves performance" [syn: performance]

3. (computer science) the process of carrying out an instruction by a computer

4. (law) the completion of a legal instrument (such as a contract or deed) by signing it (and perhaps sealing and delivering it) so that it becomes legally binding and enforceable

5. a routine court order that attempts to enforce the judgment that has been granted to a plaintiff by authorizing a sheriff to carry it out

6. the act of accomplishing some aim or executing some order; "the agency was created for the implementation of the policy"

7. unlawful premeditated killing of a human being by a human being [syn: murder]

Yup, last in the line, meaning least supported by common usage.

Think you're struggling a bit here Sabaijai.

On the contrary, it's you who appears to be struggling. Talking about yourself in the third person is a common symptom of an assortment of mental conditions

[kat]

You're following a prescriptionist agenda here. From the descriptionist perspective it's common usage that counts, and in common usage 'execution' does not mean what you or Andrew Drummond want it to mean. That doesn't mean it isn't occasionally - I would say rarely - used that way. But I think you will find relatively few citations for its use as a synonym for murder, without an order. Few top-level newspaper or magazine editors I know would accept 'execution' in an article except when associated with an order (and that would include capital punishment, by the way) or when the killings appear to have been carried out by order, as in 'execution-style' Even then, 'execution-style' does not mean 'execution'.

But let us not quibble about vocabulary. It's obvious that the term's use here (by Kat) and in print (by Andrew Drummond), with regard to the shooting of Del Pinto and Reisig, is purely for sensationalist effect.

Longway was absolutely correct when he wrote:

using the word execution is quite a dramatic term to use and gives the wrong idea about the nature of the killing. at this stage it looks like it was done on the spur of the moment.

I've already demonstrated more than one reference of the correct common usage of the term, and some us seem to understand that better than others . I have no agenda, except to call things as I see it on this thread, in contrast to many publications and editors who do have an agenda to protect an image.

Execution-style is also good, murder redundant. Any word that can depict the difference between a murder committed in the heat of passion or temper flareups and one committed as a premeditated, calculated action to eliminate a witness in submission is fine. Of course, that's why we use the euphemism "in cold-blood". However, that also doesn't quite capture the full agenda of witness elimination, either.

We shall find out, and the forensics report will let us know beyond a shadow of a doubt whose vocabulary is more accurate.

[Westerby]

Execution is what it was and its usage as an appropriate term is neither sensationalist nor misleading.

Drummond is a professional but perhaps posters here get a bit carried away by their perceived self worth and could be excused for overlooking the fact. Indeed, it would also seem that many have yet to wipe away the egg spattered over their faces.

[BarryMan]

Execution is what it was and its usage as an appropriate term is neither sensationalist nor misleading.

Drummond is a professional but perhaps posters here get a bit carried away by their perceived self worth and could be excused for overlooking the fact. Indeed, it would also seem that many have yet to wipe away the egg spattered over their faces.

Huh?

I think AD would appreciate a little constructive critiquing and that's all that has been offered here. If a story is going to be presented for the international media, a responsible journalist needs to take that responsibility personally. AD's later reports held to facts and less on the commentary -- ie no invoking of Kanchanaburi, which was utterly sensationalist (the case was prejudiced by his interview of Vanessa Arscott's father) -- and they are appreciated as such.

Emotions are high enough on this case. Let's report the facts straight and not needlessly excite people. Your tirade was unnecesary.

Also, what the heck happened with this discussion on semantics? I wouldn't be surprised if a mod closed this thread because of that nonsense. In the most common usage, this shooting would not seem to have been an execution. Murder, ok, but something premeditated and coldly brought out -- the definition of execution -- no, there's zero to suggest that's the case. Anyway, I hope not to continue this utterly boring and pointless exercise in semantics.

Edited February 14, 2008 by BarryMan

[invalidusername]

There is a score of reports in the Nation regarding this incident. They even say new PM Samak will get involved. Build his image to fight police corruption. I bet this will get bundled up with the border kidnap cases and justice delivered to all

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/02/08...al_30064751.php

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/02/09...al_30064884.php

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/02/08...al_30064725.php

I am curious if they are reporting on the latest developments in the Thai Language press, and what is their side of the story.

Incidently, I can subjectively report that over the last few weeks, some of the good police officers in pai (the ones who have been here long time before the BKK invasion) have a nice grin on their face as if they are secretly please with the shakeup that is about to happen (ie..their boss gets transfered and the falang-killer actaully gets jailed)

Edited February 15, 2008 by invalidusername

[sbk]

Execution is what it was and its usage as an appropriate term is neither sensationalist nor misleading.

Drummond is a professional but perhaps posters here get a bit carried away by their perceived self worth and could be excused for overlooking the fact. Indeed, it would also seem that many have yet to wipe away the egg spattered over their faces.

Huh?

I think AD would appreciate a little constructive critiquing and that's all that has been offered here. If a story is going to be presented for the international media, a responsible journalist needs to take that responsibility personally. AD's later reports held to facts and less on the commentary -- ie no invoking of Kanchanaburi, which was utterly sensationalist (the case was prejudiced by his interview of Vanessa Arscott's father) -- and they are appreciated as such.

Emotions are high enough on this case. Let's report the facts straight and not needlessly excite people. Your tirade was unnecesary.

Also, what the heck happened with this discussion on semantics? I wouldn't be surprised if a mod closed this thread because of that nonsense. In the most common usage, this shooting would not seem to have been an execution. Murder, ok, but something premeditated and coldly brought out -- the definition of execution -- no, there's zero to suggest that's the case. Anyway, I hope not to continue this utterly boring and pointless exercise in semantics.

I agree, Barryman. It is pointless. Lets get back on topic please.

Thanks for the update, invalidusername.

[sabaijai]

Execution is what it was and its usage as an appropriate term is neither sensationalist nor misleading.

Drummond is a professional but perhaps posters here get a bit carried away by their perceived self worth and could be excused for overlooking the fact. Indeed, it would also seem that many have yet to wipe away the egg spattered over their faces.

Another alter ego appears.

[Claymore]

Execution is what it was and its usage as an appropriate term is neither sensationalist nor misleading.

Drummond is a professional but perhaps posters here get a bit carried away by their perceived self worth and could be excused for overlooking the fact. Indeed, it would also seem that many have yet to wipe away the egg spattered over their faces.

Huh?

I think AD would appreciate a little constructive critiquing and that's all that has been offered here. If a story is going to be presented for the international media, a responsible journalist needs to take that responsibility personally. AD's later reports held to facts and less on the commentary -- ie no invoking of Kanchanaburi, which was utterly sensationalist (the case was prejudiced by his interview of Vanessa Arscott's father) -- and they are appreciated as such.

Emotions are high enough on this case. Let's report the facts straight and not needlessly excite people. Your tirade was unnecesary.

Also, what the heck happened with this discussion on semantics? I wouldn't be surprised if a mod closed this thread because of that nonsense. In the most common usage, this shooting would not seem to have been an execution. Murder, ok, but something premeditated and coldly brought out -- the definition of execution -- no, there's zero to suggest that's the case. Anyway, I hope not to continue this utterly boring and pointless exercise in semantics.

I agree, Barryman. It is pointless. Lets get back on topic please.

Thanks for the update, invalidusername.

Actually AD welcomes constructive criticism. Its the rants he is not so keen on. He is not fighting to have the term 'execution' written in stone here. It was certainly the totally understandable emotional response from the father in the Kanchanaburi case and the second victim in the Pai case. The similarities between the Pai killing and the Kan killings I think he has pointed out in an earlier post and in a letter to the Nation. People are free to agree or disagree. Thats's fine by him. But I dont think he wd agree that this is sensationalism but if it is, it comes from people close to the victims. I see the letter from the Del Pinto family backing his work on this case has finally been published in the Nation today. I would agree that the Kan case is much clearer. Having run down Vanessa Arscott, Wisetsingh then shot her three times, in the chest, throat and head, as she was clinging to a pylon begging for help. He was also v drunk.

The term 'execution' is certainly written in stone in the heart of Graham, Vanessa's father.

The similarities between the two cases as far as I can recall (AD is in Singapore right now) are (1) in both cases a Thai policeman claimed he was interrupting a foreign couple fighting (2) in both cases both foreigners were shot, not just one (3) in both cases the policeman fled the scene (4) in both cases they later surrendered by appointment (5) in both cases they received extraordinary help from fellow officers (6) in both cases they were free pending trial,(7) In both cases the female victim was described as having loose morals (8) and in both cases it looks like local people (Pai and Kanchanaburi) will not testify against the local police about the actual shooting. (The last one I added myself).

People shd bear in mind that despite Uthai's alleged state of innebriation he succeeded in putting a bullet close to Reisig's heart and shot Del Pinto in a way in which he must have known Del Pinto would not survive. One bullet to the torso (liver and kidneys) and one to the head, either of which wd have been fatal.

[Claymore]

Execution is what it was and its usage as an appropriate term is neither sensationalist nor misleading.

Drummond is a professional but perhaps posters here get a bit carried away by their perceived self worth and could be excused for overlooking the fact. Indeed, it would also seem that many have yet to wipe away the egg spattered over their faces.

Another alter ego appears.

I can assure you neither myself or Andrew Drummond have any connection with or know who Westerby is? I think I have made it all clear to this forum that I am in regular contact with AD. I am not hiding my light under a bushel here. Or that our views are any different.

As Drummond pointed out in a recent letter internet posters rarely admit they are wrong. I do not expect you to break the mould!

[Claymore]

Execution is what it was and its usage as an appropriate term is neither sensationalist nor misleading.

Drummond is a professional but perhaps posters here get a bit carried away by their perceived self worth and could be excused for overlooking the fact. Indeed, it would also seem that many have yet to wipe away the egg spattered over their faces.

Another alter ego appears.

I can assure you neither myself or Andrew Drummond have any connection with or know who Westerby is? I think I have made it all clear to this forum that I am in regular contact with AD. I am not hiding my light under a bushel here. Or that our views are any different. We disagree but rarely. i bow to his experience.

As Drummond pointed out in a recent letter internet posters rarely admit they are wrong. I do not expect you to break the mould!

Let me put it this way while AD was broacasting on CBC on the Ranong and Chiang Mai cases I was organising the still pictures fof songtaeows, the Mandarin Oriental, the victims, etc or CBC, Global and CTV.

[kat]

Execution is what it was and its usage as an appropriate term is neither sensationalist nor misleading.

Drummond is a professional but perhaps posters here get a bit carried away by their perceived self worth and could be excused for overlooking the fact. Indeed, it would also seem that many have yet to wipe away the egg spattered over their faces.

Huh?

I think AD would appreciate a little constructive critiquing and that's all that has been offered here. If a story is going to be presented for the international media, a responsible journalist needs to take that responsibility personally. AD's later reports held to facts and less on the commentary -- ie no invoking of Kanchanaburi, which was utterly sensationalist (the case was prejudiced by his interview of Vanessa Arscott's father) -- and they are appreciated as such.

Emotions are high enough on this case. Let's report the facts straight and not needlessly excite people. Your tirade was unnecesary.

Also, what the heck happened with this discussion on semantics? I wouldn't be surprised if a mod closed this thread because of that nonsense. In the most common usage, this shooting would not seem to have been an execution. Murder, ok, but something premeditated and coldly brought out -- the definition of execution -- no, there's zero to suggest that's the case. Anyway, I hope not to continue this utterly boring and pointless exercise in semantics.

I agree, Barryman. It is pointless. Lets get back on topic please.

Thanks for the update, invalidusername.

I can appreciate the need for moderation, and respect those limits, but I need to comment further on this arguably pointless point. The discussion of semantics was initiated to by another mod to question my judgment in the use of the term, followed by other posters. The argument was both drawn and answered along semantic lines, to question the validity of definitions and events in this case. It seemed to be a very relevant point at the time, and will most likely be even more so in the future of this case.

Thanks.

[Claymore]

In a January, 2008 editorial published in Chiang Mai CityLife (submitted in December, 2007),[16] anonymous author "A Tourist" eerily anticipates the January, 2008 shooting in his/her strongly-worded objection to excessive police actions in Pai:

From Wikipedia

"I have noticed another significant change over the last year, which is the reason for writing this letter. The method of law enforcement in this small town needs to be seriously examined....I accept that changes are necessary. I also agree that noise pollution should be carefully monitored and controlled, as should drug abuse and any other illegal acts or unpleasant kinds of behaviour, but we ought not to be scared to leave our homes (or guesthouses)! ... One Saturday in particular remains in my memory, where several police officers decided to inspect a party at a bar in town. I believe that they were looking for drugs. I along with many other tourists was especially shocked to see that one officer was carrying a machine gun...This kind of behaviour is likely to scare tourists and leave very negative impressions on them with regards to Pai town as a holiday destination...The police are also actively confiscating mother (sic) vehicles, testing individuals at random for drugs and alcohol abuse, detaining owners of restaurants and bars for remaining open past the agreed time, and generally making a lot of noise in a relatively quiet town that did not appear to have many problems beforehand....The increased police presence is clearly visible and does not, in my opinion, make Pai town look like a place one would like to visit. There is also a general feeling of unrest here and I feel that it is quite obvious to the tourist travelling through. The police are unapproachable and menacing. This has a strong negative impact on the atmosphere here in Pai town. The previously friendly and welcoming town appears to have changed into a place where everyone is afraid to even walk down the street in case they are accused of doing something wrong. Should the police not be employed to protect civilians? Should they not be approachable in case I or someone else requires some help? They are certainly not even close to doing what a police force is meant to do."

That is in the Wikipedia entry? Terrible! Between Pattaya's entry and that of Pai, Wikipedia makes it seem as if Pattaya is the place to go relax after your visit to the police state of Pai. I like Wikipedia, but it's obviously easy for someone with an agenda, the time and inclination to spin an entry's content completely.

Sabaijai, perhaps you could take a random sampling of 10 people walking down a Pai street and ask each of them to gauge their level of fear while they're doing so. My guess is the risible assertion that the "previously friendly and welcoming town appears to have changed into a place where everyone is afraid to even walk down the street in case they are accused of doing something wrong" would be proven false pretty quickly.

Yes 100% false. Whoever wrote the Wiki stub obviously has some sort of agenda to tar Pai for whatever reason. No one I know has ever been 'afraid to even walk down the street' there. Certainly Chiang Mai has a higher per-capita crime rate, for example.

Probably as false as the pro-Pai posters are. Interested to know how you got the per capita crime statistics though. I cant even get proper ones for CMX!

Also the activities of the police - have not you yourself written a piece deriding their activities?

[Claymore]

Today's report from the court.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/02/08...al_30064725.php

10/10 to Andrew Drummond.

This is a little more up to date. Just in from AD Dr. of Physics today in a coma after being shot in Chiang Mai....nationality according to tipster..Canadian!

You heard it here first!

You sound absolutely delighted with yourself.

Sarcasm not necessary. Merely pointing out that this is the second Canadian murder broken on TV.com

[sabaijai]

I can appreciate the need for moderation, and respect those limits, but I need to comment further on this arguably pointless point. The discussion of semantics was initiated to by another mod to question my judgment in the use of the term, followed by other posters. The argument was both drawn and answered along semantic lines, to question the validity of definitions and events in this case. It seemed to be a very relevant point at the time, and will most likely be even more so in the future of this case.

Thanks.

I agree. Well said.

It seems that many posters cannot accept the common usage of a word when it is presented to them and especially so when it conflicts with their opinion or agenda on this matter.

Precisely.

[sabaijai]

In a January, 2008 editorial published in Chiang Mai CityLife (submitted in December, 2007),[16] anonymous author "A Tourist" eerily anticipates the January, 2008 shooting in his/her strongly-worded objection to excessive police actions in Pai:

From Wikipedia

"I have noticed another significant change over the last year, which is the reason for writing this letter. The method of law enforcement in this small town needs to be seriously examined....I accept that changes are necessary. I also agree that noise pollution should be carefully monitored and controlled, as should drug abuse and any other illegal acts or unpleasant kinds of behaviour, but we ought not to be scared to leave our homes (or guesthouses)! ... One Saturday in particular remains in my memory, where several police officers decided to inspect a party at a bar in town. I believe that they were looking for drugs. I along with many other tourists was especially shocked to see that one officer was carrying a machine gun...This kind of behaviour is likely to scare tourists and leave very negative impressions on them with regards to Pai town as a holiday destination...The police are also actively confiscating mother (sic) vehicles, testing individuals at random for drugs and alcohol abuse, detaining owners of restaurants and bars for remaining open past the agreed time, and generally making a lot of noise in a relatively quiet town that did not appear to have many problems beforehand....The increased police presence is clearly visible and does not, in my opinion, make Pai town look like a place one would like to visit. There is also a general feeling of unrest here and I feel that it is quite obvious to the tourist travelling through. The police are unapproachable and menacing. This has a strong negative impact on the atmosphere here in Pai town. The previously friendly and welcoming town appears to have changed into a place where everyone is afraid to even walk down the street in case they are accused of doing something wrong. Should the police not be employed to protect civilians? Should they not be approachable in case I or someone else requires some help? They are certainly not even close to doing what a police force is meant to do."

That is in the Wikipedia entry? Terrible! Between Pattaya's entry and that of Pai, Wikipedia makes it seem as if Pattaya is the place to go relax after your visit to the police state of Pai. I like Wikipedia, but it's obviously easy for someone with an agenda, the time and inclination to spin an entry's content completely.

Sabaijai, perhaps you could take a random sampling of 10 people walking down a Pai street and ask each of them to gauge their level of fear while they're doing so. My guess is the risible assertion that the "previously friendly and welcoming town appears to have changed into a place where everyone is afraid to even walk down the street in case they are accused of doing something wrong" would be proven false pretty quickly.

Yes 100% false. Whoever wrote the Wiki stub obviously has some sort of agenda to tar Pai for whatever reason. No one I know has ever been 'afraid to even walk down the street' there. Certainly Chiang Mai has a higher per-capita crime rate, for example.

Probably as false as the pro-Pai posters are. Interested to know how you got the per capita crime statistics though. I cant even get proper ones for CMX!

Also the activities of the police - have not you yourself written a piece deriding their activities?

But not from the viewpoint of safety or lack thereof, rather selective enforcement of certain laws. But the police chief has changed twice since then. The rank and file don't change much, so the character of the chief in place at any given time determines the police atmosphere by and large. Uthai should have been given the boot long ago.

I stand by my personal observation that Pai is no less safe than any other town its size in Thailand. Just back from another visit, both tourists and residents were carrying on with their lives as usual. Of course safety doesn't sell, news-wise

[Claymore]

I can appreciate the need for moderation, and respect those limits, but I need to comment further on this arguably pointless point. The discussion of semantics was initiated to by another mod to question my judgment in the use of the term, followed by other posters. The argument was both drawn and answered along semantic lines, to question the validity of definitions and events in this case. It seemed to be a very relevant point at the time, and will most likely be even more so in the future of this case.

Thanks.

I agree. Well said.

It seems that many posters cannot accept the common usage of a word when it is presented to them and especially so when it conflicts with their opinion or agenda on this matter.

Precisely.

Here we go again, You have the answer already. Argue it out with the relatives of those close to the victims. Not here. Its a manner of speech to emphasis the horror of what they felt I am sure.

[Claymore]

In a January, 2008 editorial published in Chiang Mai CityLife (submitted in December, 2007),[16] anonymous author "A Tourist" eerily anticipates the January, 2008 shooting in his/her strongly-worded objection to excessive police actions in Pai:

From Wikipedia

"I have noticed another significant change over the last year, which is the reason for writing this letter. The method of law enforcement in this small town needs to be seriously examined....I accept that changes are necessary. I also agree that noise pollution should be carefully monitored and controlled, as should drug abuse and any other illegal acts or unpleasant kinds of behaviour, but we ought not to be scared to leave our homes (or guesthouses)! ... One Saturday in particular remains in my memory, where several police officers decided to inspect a party at a bar in town. I believe that they were looking for drugs. I along with many other tourists was especially shocked to see that one officer was carrying a machine gun...This kind of behaviour is likely to scare tourists and leave very negative impressions on them with regards to Pai town as a holiday destination...The police are also actively confiscating mother (sic) vehicles, testing individuals at random for drugs and alcohol abuse, detaining owners of restaurants and bars for remaining open past the agreed time, and generally making a lot of noise in a relatively quiet town that did not appear to have many problems beforehand....The increased police presence is clearly visible and does not, in my opinion, make Pai town look like a place one would like to visit. There is also a general feeling of unrest here and I feel that it is quite obvious to the tourist travelling through. The police are unapproachable and menacing. This has a strong negative impact on the atmosphere here in Pai town. The previously friendly and welcoming town appears to have changed into a place where everyone is afraid to even walk down the street in case they are accused of doing something wrong. Should the police not be employed to protect civilians? Should they not be approachable in case I or someone else requires some help? They are certainly not even close to doing what a police force is meant to do."

That is in the Wikipedia entry? Terrible! Between Pattaya's entry and that of Pai, Wikipedia makes it seem as if Pattaya is the place to go relax after your visit to the police state of Pai. I like Wikipedia, but it's obviously easy for someone with an agenda, the time and inclination to spin an entry's content completely.

Sabaijai, perhaps you could take a random sampling of 10 people walking down a Pai street and ask each of them to gauge their level of fear while they're doing so. My guess is the risible assertion that the "previously friendly and welcoming town appears to have changed into a place where everyone is afraid to even walk down the street in case they are accused of doing something wrong" would be proven false pretty quickly.

Yes 100% false. Whoever wrote the Wiki stub obviously has some sort of agenda to tar Pai for whatever reason. No one I know has ever been 'afraid to even walk down the street' there. Certainly Chiang Mai has a higher per-capita crime rate, for example.

Probably as false as the pro-Pai posters are. Interested to know how you got the per capita crime statistics though. I cant even get proper ones for CMX!

Also the activities of the police - have not you yourself written a piece deriding their activities?

But not from the viewpoint of safety or lack thereof, rather selective enforcement of certain laws. But the police chief has changed twice since then. The rank and file don't change much, so the character of the chief in place at any given time determines the police atmosphere by and large. Uthai should have been given the boot long ago.

I stand by my personal observation that Pai is no less safe than any other town its size in Thailand. Just back from another visit, both tourists and residents were carrying on with their lives as usual. Of course safety doesn't sell newspapers

And then of course no newspaper that I know of has written about the safety or lack of it in Pai in regard to this case. (only in letters and posts). However with your confident assertion of the town's safety you have sort of created and itch which need's scratching!

Shall we turn to the War on Drugs?

[livesinpai]

In a January, 2008 editorial published in Chiang Mai CityLife (submitted in December, 2007),[16] anonymous author "A Tourist" eerily anticipates the January, 2008 shooting in his/her strongly-worded objection to excessive police actions in Pai:

... (to view full Wikipedia page, please click here: Wikipedia Page on Pai )

That is in the Wikipedia entry?...Sabaijai, perhaps you could take a random sampling of 10 people walking down a Pai street and ask each of them to gauge their level of fear while they're doing so....

<snip>.

Yes 100% false. Whoever wrote the Wiki stub obviously has some sort of agenda to tar Pai for whatever reason. No one I know has ever been 'afraid to even walk down the street' there.

<snip>.

Hello,

I have been following this thread from the start and now feel compelled to give some perspective from a Pai full-time resident.

Some of the claims I have been reading in this thread about "Pai people's attitudes" towards the police (including both potential eyewitnesses of the murder and just Pai residents' attitudes towards the police in general) do not at all gel with what anyone I know in Pai thinks.

I have lived in Pai full-time for many years, and I woud like to set the record straight so that the impressions of the many full-time Pai Expat farangs and many Thais I know do not go unrepresented.

First of all, to avoid unnecessary argument over areas where we actually agree, let me say that I am very grateful to the people such as sabaijai and Drummond and the OP and others who are busy interviewing people, collecting data, and generally bringing the facts of this case, and the facts of the Pai police behavior in general, out into public view. As a farang I believe that it is better to bring out the truth, for the simple reason that wide publication of the truth is the only truly effective defense against corrupt government. Furthermore, I believe it's also good that the various "investigators" on this thread are bashing each other so that any inaccuracies or biases come out! As long as it stays civil, this bashing should be a net benefit towards the goal of eventually bringing out the truth (a very un-Thai attitude, I know).

Secondly, let me avert some unnecessary argument in this thread about the Wiki entry by clarifying something that I think many readers might have missed:

• The part of the Wiki entry quoted on TV was in turn quoting an editorial published to Chiang Mai CityLife (which the TV poster did say, though it was easy to miss because the citation was one line on the top that appeared above the words "From Wikipedia"), and the TV poster posted only the most sensational part of the Wiki page. The Wiki section is generally level-headed and not "chicken little." It is very easy to misunderstand and blow things out of proportion unless you look at the Wiki entry in context, so I would invite anyone interested to click and read it in context: Wikipedia Page on Pai
  
• The Wiki page itself was quoting only some parts (both sensational and level-leaded parts) of the Chiang Mai CityLife article, which I would invite you to read in full here: Chiang Mai City Life Article
  

So our first step should be to read the originals in context to see what the original authors meant.

Now, having read the originals, let us reconsider the one sensational sentence that everyone has been taking out of context: "The previously friendly and welcoming town appears to have changed into a place where everyone is afraid to even walk down the street in case they are accused of doing something wrong."

I think most reasonable people would agree that it is silly to even argue about whether that statement is literally true or not. Let's not even go there; it's a waste of time. Instead, let's focus on these much more important and relevant questions:

• How have Pai police actions in the last few years affected expats and Thai locals?
  
• Would the effect go far enough to scare off witnesses to the recent murder?
  
• How have these actions affected the Pai bottom line in terms of tourist dollars?
  

In that context, I have to say that sabaijai's findings about the attitude of Pai people, which I respect and which I do not think he is making up, do not represent the vast majority of people I know in Pai. It seems that sabaijai must know a different group of people than me.

I'm not a reporter from Bangkok, nor do I come up to Pai every other weekend: I live here. I wish to make sure that the views of the long-term Pai residents I know are also represented.

I can say that amongst the group of 20-30 expat farangs with whom I communicate regularly, which includes every type of person from long-haired young hippies to engineer geeks to old retirees, and which includes both people who would be likely targets of the police (two examples being: farangs who own businesses, or any people who might like to smoke) and people who are not likely targets, there is definitely, unquestionably, unanimous agreement that over the last few years, their impression of Pai has darkened signficantly, and that they feel a fear of the police and a lack of confidence in the integrity of the system that they never felt before. Contrary to what sabaijai has indicated (please correct me if I have misinterpreted you) the actions of the police are still a daily topic of fearful conversation. They have had a direct impact on farang behavior. Here's a few examples:

• Many types of very enjoyable parties and art and music events that used to occur regularly (including both fliered/announced events, private events, and word-of-mouth public events) no longer occur at all. Now, there are many reasons why parties might wane, from tourist demographics to weather, but I have personally spoken with several people who used to throw these parties, and they have told me that a main reason is that they are afraid of the Pai police coming to raid their venues, piss-test and cart their customers off in paddywagons, and even in a few cases contact immigration to look into possible work visa violations. This is not a theoretical belief. It has actually happened to one person who no longer throws parties, and that was that person's last party. Please note that that person was not selling drugs, throwing orgies, or contravening any laws, nor was that person ever actually apprehended; that person changed their behavior simply for fear of being accused and convicted under a system that will not try them fairly. You can judge that behavior however you like: my goal in this post is simply to tell you it's happening here, and it's common: it's becoming the norm, not the exception
  
• The decrease in parties in turn is souring the impressions that many short-term tourists get of Pai. They come, following glowing recommendations of friends who visited years back, to find only Bebop and Bamboo Bar and little of the really unpredictable, improvised art and music they heard about. This in turn discourages them from coming back and recommending Pai, and we have certainly seen a decrease in farang tourist numbers in this year's high season relative to the last two.
  
• Several long-term expats I know, some of whom are retirees who would likely have contributed significantly to Pai's economy, have simply left (in some cases for good, in some cases for the hot season), and they tell me one of their main reasons for this is the sudden unfriendliness and unpleasantness of Pai because of the police climate. They wish to go somewhere where they will not have fear of being blackmailed or wrongfully accused.
  

Let me clarify that the issue at hand is not that it is unsafe to live in Pai because of robbery, theft, rape, or other crime. Everyone will agree big cities have more of that. No need to even discuss that. The issue is purely one of the fear of intimidation wrongful arrest by the police, and the affect that has on Pai's tourist dollars and on possible witnesses in the murder investigation.

Let me also state for the record that I do not agree with everything in the Chiang Mai City Life letter. For example, I think most short-term tourists remain unaware of the police situation until and unless they look at thorn tree / thaivisa or chat with some locals. I'm not sure what percent that is. However, all short-term tourists are affected indirectly by the recent decrease in Pai's famed eclectic art and events from the longer-term residents and other tourists. In general though, despite a little hyperbole, I think that the letter is very representative of the feelings of those of us who live in Pai full-time.

The reason I am bringing this information up is that sabaijai's reportings have been very much in another light, as if Pai locals have mostly forgotten about the case, or as if the subject of police presence in Pai is just a laughing matter and not a big deal that changes people's behavior. That is not my experience at all.

It is relevant because we need to use all available data when deciding on the right balance between police protecton and personal freedom. For example, it will be important for these facts to be in public view when the Thai government next decides whether it's time to replace the Pai police chief yet again (not that I think changing the chief makes a big difference, but any change gives the possiblity of improvement)! I think the Wiki section (again be sure to read the original in context) is appropriate, not sensationalist, and accomplishes the goal of getting those facts out.

I wish to be balanced, and I respect sabaijai's efforts to balance possible sensationalism by AD and others, but I don't want the Thai government to see posts like his and conclude that in fact the Pai police are not having an effect on tourist dollars. I want it to be clear that they are. If the Thai government wants to maintain farang tourist dollars (not a foregone conclusion of course ), they need to do something about the police in Pai ASAP.

Now let's consider local Thais. Amongst the 3-5 Thais I communicate with regularly, and the probably 10-20 Thais with whom I have spoken about the police over the last few years, which includes both folks who were born here and street vendors and business owners who have come up from Bangkok or Chiang Mai, the attitudes are nearly the same. The only difference is that Thais seem much more jaded and resigned to the fact that the Thai system is hopelessly corrupt and that they are stuck in it. They just want it the Thai police and government to leave them alone as much as possible, and they are often reluctant to even talk about the issue for fear of being dragged into it.

As far as the question of whether Thais here would be afraid to testify against the local police, there is simply no question: everyone I asked was sure that the testimony of any witnesses at the bar that night is meaningless, because they believe that, either through bribery or intimidation (different people suggest different scenarios), it is extremely unlikely that the truth would come out from them. I don't know which Thais sabaijai talked to, but apparently the ones I talked to were more jaded! The most hopeful amongst the Thais I talked to put their faith in the police investigation (and presumably forensics) rather than the witnesses. It seemed like those hopeful Thais wanted to put my mind at ease by saying "Don't worry, the investigator will get to the bottom of it!" I can't say for sure whether those Thais seriously believed that the police investigators would bring the truth to light, or whether they were just saying that to avoid having to consider the unpleasant alternative, or whether they were just trying to be good hosts (in the sense of me being a guest in Thailand), or whether they were just saying that as a sort of greng jai to show respect for authority figures, or what. Regardless, my findings are greatly at odds with sabaijai's results, so I wanted to make sure all views are on the record. It seems we were talking to different Thais.

It would be great if the question of police intimidation of witnesses were overblown and not serious, but from my POV it seems like it is. I don't think we're going to get any useful results from Pai-based witnesses.

I'm very happy to hear that some Chiang Mai witnesses did come forth under some sort of protection, and hopefully their testimony won't get swayed and bent in the other direction (e.g. of accusing the police of more crimes than they actually committed) by biases of other groups! I know sabaijai is very interested in examining whether this happens, and that's cool, I just ask that in the process you don't end up misrepresenting the extent of damage that the police have done in Pai that might make life difficult for those of us living here full-time. If you want to call that my agenda, no problem! Guilty as charged!

Thank you all for your time.

[Andiamo]

Excellent post 'livesinpai' - very good to get a perspective from someone who actually lives in Pai!

I enjoy reading constructive posts like above rather than some of the 'baiting' that seems to occur more frequently on this thread....

[Claymore]

In a January, 2008 editorial published in Chiang Mai CityLife (submitted in December, 2007),[16] anonymous author "A Tourist" eerily anticipates the January, 2008 shooting in his/her strongly-worded objection to excessive police actions in Pai:

... (to view full Wikipedia page, please click here: Wikipedia Page on Pai )

That is in the Wikipedia entry?...Sabaijai, perhaps you could take a random sampling of 10 people walking down a Pai street and ask each of them to gauge their level of fear while they're doing so....

<snip>.

Yes 100% false. Whoever wrote the Wiki stub obviously has some sort of agenda to tar Pai for whatever reason. No one I know has ever been 'afraid to even walk down the street' there.

<snip>.

Hello,

I have been following this thread from the start and now feel compelled to give some perspective from a Pai full-time resident.

Some of the claims I have been reading in this thread about "Pai people's attitudes" towards the police (including both potential eyewitnesses of the murder and just Pai residents' attitudes towards the police in general) do not at all gel with what anyone I know in Pai thinks.

I have lived in Pai full-time for many years, and I woud like to set the record straight so that the impressions of the many full-time Pai Expat farangs and many Thais I know do not go unrepresented.

First of all, to avoid unnecessary argument over areas where we actually agree, let me say that I am very grateful to the people such as sabaijai and Drummond and the OP and others who are busy interviewing people, collecting data, and generally bringing the facts of this case, and the facts of the Pai police behavior in general, out into public view. As a farang I believe that it is better to bring out the truth, for the simple reason that wide publication of the truth is the only truly effective defense against corrupt government. Furthermore, I believe it's also good that the various "investigators" on this thread are bashing each other so that any inaccuracies or biases come out! As long as it stays civil, this bashing should be a net benefit towards the goal of eventually bringing out the truth (a very un-Thai attitude, I know).

Secondly, let me avert some unnecessary argument in this thread about the Wiki entry by clarifying something that I think many readers might have missed:

• The part of the Wiki entry quoted on TV was in turn quoting an editorial published to Chiang Mai CityLife (which the TV poster did say, though it was easy to miss because the citation was one line on the top that appeared above the words "From Wikipedia"), and the TV poster posted only the most sensational part of the Wiki page. The Wiki section is generally level-headed and not "chicken little." It is very easy to misunderstand and blow things out of proportion unless you look at the Wiki entry in context, so I would invite anyone interested to click and read it in context: Wikipedia Page on Pai
  
• The Wiki page itself was quoting only some parts (both sensational and level-leaded parts) of the Chiang Mai CityLife article, which I would invite you to read in full here: Chiang Mai City Life Article
  

So our first step should be to read the originals in context to see what the original authors meant.

Now, having read the originals, let us reconsider the one sensational sentence that everyone has been taking out of context: "The previously friendly and welcoming town appears to have changed into a place where everyone is afraid to even walk down the street in case they are accused of doing something wrong."

I think most reasonable people would agree that it is silly to even argue about whether that statement is literally true or not. Let's not even go there; it's a waste of time. Instead, let's focus on these much more important and relevant questions:

• How have Pai police actions in the last few years affected expats and Thai locals?
  
• Would the effect go far enough to scare off witnesses to the recent murder?
  
• How have these actions affected the Pai bottom line in terms of tourist dollars?
  

In that context, I have to say that sabaijai's findings about the attitude of Pai people, which I respect and which I do not think he is making up, do not represent the vast majority of people I know in Pai. It seems that sabaijai must know a different group of people than me.

I'm not a reporter from Bangkok, nor do I come up to Pai every other weekend: I live here. I wish to make sure that the views of the long-term Pai residents I know are also represented.

I can say that amongst the group of 20-30 expat farangs with whom I communicate regularly, which includes every type of person from long-haired young hippies to engineer geeks to old retirees, and which includes both people who would be likely targets of the police (two examples being: farangs who own businesses, or any people who might like to smoke) and people who are not likely targets, there is definitely, unquestionably, unanimous agreement that over the last few years, their impression of Pai has darkened signficantly, and that they feel a fear of the police and a lack of confidence in the integrity of the system that they never felt before. Contrary to what sabaijai has indicated (please correct me if I have misinterpreted you) the actions of the police are still a daily topic of fearful conversation. They have had a direct impact on farang behavior. Here's a few examples:

• Many types of very enjoyable parties and art and music events that used to occur regularly (including both fliered/announced events, private events, and word-of-mouth public events) no longer occur at all. Now, there are many reasons why parties might wane, from tourist demographics to weather, but I have personally spoken with several people who used to throw these parties, and they have told me that a main reason is that they are afraid of the Pai police coming to raid their venues, piss-test and cart their customers off in paddywagons, and even in a few cases contact immigration to look into possible work visa violations. This is not a theoretical belief. It has actually happened to one person who no longer throws parties, and that was that person's last party. Please note that that person was not selling drugs, throwing orgies, or contravening any laws, nor was that person ever actually apprehended; that person changed their behavior simply for fear of being accused and convicted under a system that will not try them fairly. You can judge that behavior however you like: my goal in this post is simply to tell you it's happening here, and it's common: it's becoming the norm, not the exception
  
• The decrease in parties in turn is souring the impressions that many short-term tourists get of Pai. They come, following glowing recommendations of friends who visited years back, to find only Bebop and Bamboo Bar and little of the really unpredictable, improvised art and music they heard about. This in turn discourages them from coming back and recommending Pai, and we have certainly seen a decrease in farang tourist numbers in this year's high season relative to the last two.
  
• Several long-term expats I know, some of whom are retirees who would likely have contributed significantly to Pai's economy, have simply left (in some cases for good, in some cases for the hot season), and they tell me one of their main reasons for this is the sudden unfriendliness and unpleasantness of Pai because of the police climate. They wish to go somewhere where they will not have fear of being blackmailed or wrongfully accused.
  

Let me clarify that the issue at hand is not that it is unsafe to live in Pai because of robbery, theft, rape, or other crime. Everyone will agree big cities have more of that. No need to even discuss that. The issue is purely one of the fear of intimidation wrongful arrest by the police, and the affect that has on Pai's tourist dollars and on possible witnesses in the murder investigation.

Let me also state for the record that I do not agree with everything in the Chiang Mai City Life letter. For example, I think most short-term tourists remain unaware of the police situation until and unless they look at thorn tree / thaivisa or chat with some locals. I'm not sure what percent that is. However, all short-term tourists are affected indirectly by the recent decrease in Pai's famed eclectic art and events from the longer-term residents and other tourists. In general though, despite a little hyperbole, I think that the letter is very representative of the feelings of those of us who live in Pai full-time.

The reason I am bringing this information up is that sabaijai's reportings have been very much in another light, as if Pai locals have mostly forgotten about the case, or as if the subject of police presence in Pai is just a laughing matter and not a big deal that changes people's behavior. That is not my experience at all.

It is relevant because we need to use all available data when deciding on the right balance between police protecton and personal freedom. For example, it will be important for these facts to be in public view when the Thai government next decides whether it's time to replace the Pai police chief yet again (not that I think changing the chief makes a big difference, but any change gives the possiblity of improvement)! I think the Wiki section (again be sure to read the original in context) is appropriate, not sensationalist, and accomplishes the goal of getting those facts out.

I wish to be balanced, and I respect sabaijai's efforts to balance possible sensationalism by AD and others, but I don't want the Thai government to see posts like his and conclude that in fact the Pai police are not having an effect on tourist dollars. I want it to be clear that they are. If the Thai government wants to maintain farang tourist dollars (not a foregone conclusion of course ), they need to do something about the police in Pai ASAP.

Now let's consider local Thais. Amongst the 3-5 Thais I communicate with regularly, and the probably 10-20 Thais with whom I have spoken about the police over the last few years, which includes both folks who were born here and street vendors and business owners who have come up from Bangkok or Chiang Mai, the attitudes are nearly the same. The only difference is that Thais seem much more jaded and resigned to the fact that the Thai system is hopelessly corrupt and that they are stuck in it. They just want it the Thai police and government to leave them alone as much as possible, and they are often reluctant to even talk about the issue for fear of being dragged into it.

As far as the question of whether Thais here would be afraid to testify against the local police, there is simply no question: everyone I asked was sure that the testimony of any witnesses at the bar that night is meaningless, because they believe that, either through bribery or intimidation (different people suggest different scenarios), it is extremely unlikely that the truth would come out from them. I don't know which Thais sabaijai talked to, but apparently the ones I talked to were more jaded! The most hopeful amongst the Thais I talked to put their faith in the police investigation (and presumably forensics) rather than the witnesses. It seemed like those hopeful Thais wanted to put my mind at ease by saying "Don't worry, the investigator will get to the bottom of it!" I can't say for sure whether those Thais seriously believed that the police investigators would bring the truth to light, or whether they were just saying that to avoid having to consider the unpleasant alternative, or whether they were just trying to be good hosts (in the sense of me being a guest in Thailand), or whether they were just saying that as a sort of greng jai to show respect for authority figures, or what. Regardless, my findings are greatly at odds with sabaijai's results, so I wanted to make sure all views are on the record. It seems we were talking to different Thais.

It would be great if the question of police intimidation of witnesses were overblown and not serious, but from my POV it seems like it is. I don't think we're going to get any useful results from Pai-based witnesses.

I'm very happy to hear that some Chiang Mai witnesses did come forth under some sort of protection, and hopefully their testimony won't get swayed and bent in the other direction (e.g. of accusing the police of more crimes than they actually committed) by biases of other groups! I know sabaijai is very interested in examining whether this happens, and that's cool, I just ask that in the process you don't end up misrepresenting the extent of damage that the police have done in Pai that might make life difficult for those of us living here full-time. If you want to call that my agenda, no problem! Guilty as charged!

Thank you all for your time.

Thank you for that measured response. It really sums up what AD feels about this case and what is the real view in Pai. Because in a way that's the feeling in many Thai communities.

Just heard from AD that police seem now to have backed down on the defense of 'accidental' gun discharge. A formal complaint has been made about the deputy police chief. The NHRC report is due out v shortly. The MHS prosecutor has agreed to proceed on 'murder' and the NHCR will appear as joint prosecutors bringing their own witnesses, which I guess will include Dr.Pornthip and the two Chiang Mai people.

[sabaijai]

Hello,

I have been following this thread from the start and now feel compelled to give some perspective from a Pai full-time resident.

Some of the claims I have been reading in this thread about "Pai people's attitudes" towards the police (including both potential eyewitnesses of the murder and just Pai residents' attitudes towards the police in general) do not at all gel with what anyone I know in Pai thinks.

I have lived in Pai full-time for many years, and I woud like to set the record straight so that the impressions of the many full-time Pai Expat farangs and many Thais I know do not go unrepresented.

First of all, to avoid unnecessary argument over areas where we actually agree, let me say that I am very grateful to the people such as sabaijai and Drummond and the OP and others who are busy interviewing people, collecting data, and generally bringing the facts of this case, and the facts of the Pai police behavior in general, out into public view. As a farang I believe that it is better to bring out the truth, for the simple reason that wide publication of the truth is the only truly effective defense against corrupt government. Furthermore, I believe it's also good that the various "investigators" on this thread are bashing each other so that any inaccuracies or biases come out! As long as it stays civil, this bashing should be a net benefit towards the goal of eventually bringing out the truth (a very un-Thai attitude, I know).

Secondly, let me avert some unnecessary argument in this thread about the Wiki entry by clarifying something that I think many readers might have missed:

• The part of the Wiki entry quoted on TV was in turn quoting an editorial published to Chiang Mai CityLife (which the TV poster did say, though it was easy to miss because the citation was one line on the top that appeared above the words "From Wikipedia"), and the TV poster posted only the most sensational part of the Wiki page. The Wiki section is generally level-headed and not "chicken little." It is very easy to misunderstand and blow things out of proportion unless you look at the Wiki entry in context, so I would invite anyone interested to click and read it in context: Wikipedia Page on Pai
  
• The Wiki page itself was quoting only some parts (both sensational and level-leaded parts) of the Chiang Mai CityLife article, which I would invite you to read in full here: Chiang Mai City Life Article
  

So our first step should be to read the originals in context to see what the original authors meant.

Now, having read the originals, let us reconsider the one sensational sentence that everyone has been taking out of context: "The previously friendly and welcoming town appears to have changed into a place where everyone is afraid to even walk down the street in case they are accused of doing something wrong."

I think most reasonable people would agree that it is silly to even argue about whether that statement is literally true or not. Let's not even go there; it's a waste of time. Instead, let's focus on these much more important and relevant questions:

• How have Pai police actions in the last few years affected expats and Thai locals?
  
• Would the effect go far enough to scare off witnesses to the recent murder?
  
• How have these actions affected the Pai bottom line in terms of tourist dollars?
  

In that context, I have to say that sabaijai's findings about the attitude of Pai people, which I respect and which I do not think he is making up, do not represent the vast majority of people I know in Pai. It seems that sabaijai must know a different group of people than me.

I'm not a reporter from Bangkok, nor do I come up to Pai every other weekend: I live here. I wish to make sure that the views of the long-term Pai residents I know are also represented.

I can say that amongst the group of 20-30 expat farangs with whom I communicate regularly, which includes every type of person from long-haired young hippies to engineer geeks to old retirees, and which includes both people who would be likely targets of the police (two examples being: farangs who own businesses, or any people who might like to smoke) and people who are not likely targets, there is definitely, unquestionably, unanimous agreement that over the last few years, their impression of Pai has darkened signficantly, and that they feel a fear of the police and a lack of confidence in the integrity of the system that they never felt before. Contrary to what sabaijai has indicated (please correct me if I have misinterpreted you) the actions of the police are still a daily topic of fearful conversation. They have had a direct impact on farang behavior. Here's a few examples:

• Many types of very enjoyable parties and art and music events that used to occur regularly (including both fliered/announced events, private events, and word-of-mouth public events) no longer occur at all. Now, there are many reasons why parties might wane, from tourist demographics to weather, but I have personally spoken with several people who used to throw these parties, and they have told me that a main reason is that they are afraid of the Pai police coming to raid their venues, piss-test and cart their customers off in paddywagons, and even in a few cases contact immigration to look into possible work visa violations. This is not a theoretical belief. It has actually happened to one person who no longer throws parties, and that was that person's last party. Please note that that person was not selling drugs, throwing orgies, or contravening any laws, nor was that person ever actually apprehended; that person changed their behavior simply for fear of being accused and convicted under a system that will not try them fairly. You can judge that behavior however you like: my goal in this post is simply to tell you it's happening here, and it's common: it's becoming the norm, not the exception
  
• The decrease in parties in turn is souring the impressions that many short-term tourists get of Pai. They come, following glowing recommendations of friends who visited years back, to find only Bebop and Bamboo Bar and little of the really unpredictable, improvised art and music they heard about. This in turn discourages them from coming back and recommending Pai, and we have certainly seen a decrease in farang tourist numbers in this year's high season relative to the last two.
  
• Several long-term expats I know, some of whom are retirees who would likely have contributed significantly to Pai's economy, have simply left (in some cases for good, in some cases for the hot season), and they tell me one of their main reasons for this is the sudden unfriendliness and unpleasantness of Pai because of the police climate. They wish to go somewhere where they will not have fear of being blackmailed or wrongfully accused.
  

Let me clarify that the issue at hand is not that it is unsafe to live in Pai because of robbery, theft, rape, or other crime. Everyone will agree big cities have more of that. No need to even discuss that. The issue is purely one of the fear of intimidation wrongful arrest by the police, and the affect that has on Pai's tourist dollars and on possible witnesses in the murder investigation.

Let me also state for the record that I do not agree with everything in the Chiang Mai City Life letter. For example, I think most short-term tourists remain unaware of the police situation until and unless they look at thorn tree / thaivisa or chat with some locals. I'm not sure what percent that is. However, all short-term tourists are affected indirectly by the recent decrease in Pai's famed eclectic art and events from the longer-term residents and other tourists. In general though, despite a little hyperbole, I think that the letter is very representative of the feelings of those of us who live in Pai full-time.

The reason I am bringing this information up is that sabaijai's reportings have been very much in another light, as if Pai locals have mostly forgotten about the case, or as if the subject of police presence in Pai is just a laughing matter and not a big deal that changes people's behavior. That is not my experience at all.

It is relevant because we need to use all available data when deciding on the right balance between police protecton and personal freedom. For example, it will be important for these facts to be in public view when the Thai government next decides whether it's time to replace the Pai police chief yet again (not that I think changing the chief makes a big difference, but any change gives the possiblity of improvement)! I think the Wiki section (again be sure to read the original in context) is appropriate, not sensationalist, and accomplishes the goal of getting those facts out.

I wish to be balanced, and I respect sabaijai's efforts to balance possible sensationalism by AD and others, but I don't want the Thai government to see posts like his and conclude that in fact the Pai police are not having an effect on tourist dollars. I want it to be clear that they are. If the Thai government wants to maintain farang tourist dollars (not a foregone conclusion of course ), they need to do something about the police in Pai ASAP.

Now let's consider local Thais. Amongst the 3-5 Thais I communicate with regularly, and the probably 10-20 Thais with whom I have spoken about the police over the last few years, which includes both folks who were born here and street vendors and business owners who have come up from Bangkok or Chiang Mai, the attitudes are nearly the same. The only difference is that Thais seem much more jaded and resigned to the fact that the Thai system is hopelessly corrupt and that they are stuck in it. They just want it the Thai police and government to leave them alone as much as possible, and they are often reluctant to even talk about the issue for fear of being dragged into it.

As far as the question of whether Thais here would be afraid to testify against the local police, there is simply no question: everyone I asked was sure that the testimony of any witnesses at the bar that night is meaningless, because they believe that, either through bribery or intimidation (different people suggest different scenarios), it is extremely unlikely that the truth would come out from them. I don't know which Thais sabaijai talked to, but apparently the ones I talked to were more jaded! The most hopeful amongst the Thais I talked to put their faith in the police investigation (and presumably forensics) rather than the witnesses. It seemed like those hopeful Thais wanted to put my mind at ease by saying "Don't worry, the investigator will get to the bottom of it!" I can't say for sure whether those Thais seriously believed that the police investigators would bring the truth to light, or whether they were just saying that to avoid having to consider the unpleasant alternative, or whether they were just trying to be good hosts (in the sense of me being a guest in Thailand), or whether they were just saying that as a sort of greng jai to show respect for authority figures, or what. Regardless, my findings are greatly at odds with sabaijai's results, so I wanted to make sure all views are on the record. It seems we were talking to different Thais.

It would be great if the question of police intimidation of witnesses were overblown and not serious, but from my POV it seems like it is. I don't think we're going to get any useful results from Pai-based witnesses.

I'm very happy to hear that some Chiang Mai witnesses did come forth under some sort of protection, and hopefully their testimony won't get swayed and bent in the other direction (e.g. of accusing the police of more crimes than they actually committed) by biases of other groups! I know sabaijai is very interested in examining whether this happens, and that's cool, I just ask that in the process you don't end up misrepresenting the extent of damage that the police have done in Pai that might make life difficult for those of us living here full-time. If you want to call that my agenda, no problem! Guilty as charged!

Thank you all for your time.

I agree there are some farangs who may fear the police, but my impression it's those who are involved in illegal activities (I don't mean to imply you belong to this group, livesinpai), for the most part. No law-abiding farang resident I know in Pai is genuinely fearful. Perhaps it is different groups we know.

Aside from the farang residents involved in illegal activities (speifically drug possession or drug trade for the most part; the biggest dealer in town is farang), I suspect there is also a small - very small - coterie of farangs who have developed an irrational fear of the police following this incident and its heavy press coverage. They aren't stopping to think that the shooting could have occurred anywhere in Thailand, and that in fact incidents of this nature are not that uncommon in various parts of Thailand, as tragic as they may be.

I've been a regular visitor to Pai for over 25 years (first overnight stay in 1981), and have lived their part time (half time in CM, half time in Pai) for the last seven years or so. Most of my Pai local contacts are Thai (or Shan or Yunnanese) rather than farang, and none of the Thai residents I know have told me they feared the police - at least not any more so than anywhere else.

Thais have a blanket term for police, army, and anyone in uniform, phoo mee see, literally 'people having colour' (referring to the colour of their uniforms), whom most Thais will kreng jai (show deferential respect for, bordering on fear), rightly or wrongly, and this applies to Pai police as well. Although I'd say slightly less than in a larger town simply because most Thai residents know each policeman by name and they generally get along well.

Personally I don't know of a single person - whether Thai or farang - in Pai who shares the overall paranoiac view you're presenting. I'm sure they do exist, I'm just questioning their numerical significance. I'm sure in any tourist town in Thailand you'll find similar attitudes among a minority of people. But surely not a majority, in my experience, and I know a large number of folks in Pai.

One view in particular that strikes me as questionable is your statement:

Many types of very enjoyable parties and art and music events that used to occur regularly (including both fliered/announced events, private events, and word-of-mouth public events) no longer occur at all.

My impression is that there are more of these kinds of events going on nowadays than at any previous time in Pai contemporary history. There were so many parties going on last weekend, when the Pai Reggae Festival was going on (and very successful it was, numbers-wise) that one couldn't attend one without missing another. Even the bars are staying open longer nowadays (Phu Pai, for example, till 1am, Ting Tong till 2am). In contrast with the regime of the previous police chief, who did crack down on parties and bars in general, the current chief seems to be more laissez faire than any chief in the last four years. I'm not bigging up the chief entirely, as to me he deserves part of the blame in the tragedy, as clearly Uthai had a drinking problem and should have been released from duty or sent to rehab at the very least. But Pai has seen much worse in the relatively recent past.

That said there are a considerable number of Pai residents, both foreign and Thai, who would like to see fewer parties and fewer bars, in Pai. Not to mention less tourism. I suppose if you own a tourism-dependent business in Pai, you won't like the current publicity regarding the town.

Just to answer Claymore's insinuations, I own no property and no businesses there, and have only personal and social interests in Pai, same as I do for Chiang Mai (and, for that matter, the remainder of Thailand).

Even though we disagree, it's good to hear from at least one other person that actually knows Pai.

[A_Traveller]

is genuinely fearful

Well how does one define this I wonder, a paranoia, or a justified caution, which is then dressed in kreng jai subsequently in the post?

none of the Thai residents I know have told me they feared the police - at least not any more so than anywhere else

Now there's a get out closing statement if I've every heard one. Offhand, I can not think of many Thais who do not consider the police force as a matter of concern and intersection with it to be avoided at all costs. This, ironically includes those who have senior members of the force within their own families {even some senior police officers themselves, in private} whilst outside their relative's bailiwick.

know a large number of folks in Pai

But oddly, none who hold a disparate point of view apparently.

Regards

[invalidusername]

I arrived in Pai almost 6 years ago. And up until the point that this latest police cheif took control, Pai was a place of freedom. forget about that hippie crap, but what I am talking about it was a place where if you repsected other people and stayed out of their business, then they also stayed out of yours. It was a place where you felt like you beleonged and owned the little town. You know exactly what I am talking about

There used to even be games of football between the police and falang. Speaking of police, up until this recent change, the police in pai were a non-player - we barely even knew they exsisted. And they did a good job, there were no falang murders and such

since this latest police cheif came into operation, there is an attitude of fear. The police are looking for something wrong - something to justify their position or make money.

They pull falang off the street and throw them into Mae Hon Song jail for failing a piss test.

Another falang we know was deported and thrown for 1 week into the Hole at the Bangkok Hilton before being sent filithy on a flight 'back to his country'

this for not having the correct work permit, but moreso for pissing off the cop who owned the bar across the street.

There were no problems before the police created them.

The issue is that this group of police is used to dealing with drunk expats in Pattaya and in Pai we dont get that sort, so they are falling over themselves to create business for themselves because I think the current police cheif paid alot for his transfer and has a debt to pay.

I am not intrested in tourisim drying up. I am intrested in the evil forces vacating our town. I hope you support us.

[Claymore]

I arrived in Pai almost 6 years ago. And up until the point that this latest police cheif took control, Pai was a place of freedom. forget about that hippie crap, but what I am talking about it was a place where if you repsected other people and stayed out of their business, then they also stayed out of yours. It was a place where you felt like you beleonged and owned the little town. You know exactly what I am talking about

There used to even be games of football between the police and falang. Speaking of police, up until this recent change, the police in pai were a non-player - we barely even knew they exsisted. And they did a good job, there were no falang murders and such

since this latest police cheif came into operation, there is an attitude of fear. The police are looking for something wrong - something to justify their position or make money.

They pull falang off the street and throw them into Mae Hon Song jail for failing a piss test.

Another falang we know was deported and thrown for 1 week into the Hole at the Bangkok Hilton before being sent filithy on a flight 'back to his country'

this for not having the correct work permit, but moreso for pissing off the cop who owned the bar across the street.

There were no problems before the police created them.

The issue is that this group of police is used to dealing with drunk expats in Pattaya and in Pai we dont get that sort, so they are falling over themselves to create business for themselves because I think the current police cheif paid alot for his transfer and has a debt to pay.

I am not intrested in tourisim drying up. I am intrested in the evil forces vacating our town. I hope you support us.

Such a long wait for such good posts from people who know what the real issue between people and police in Pai

[Tony Clifton]

I arrived in Pai almost 6 years ago. And up until the point that this latest police cheif took control, Pai was a place of freedom. forget about that hippie crap, but what I am talking about it was a place where if you repsected other people and stayed out of their business, then they also stayed out of yours. It was a place where you felt like you beleonged and owned the little town. You know exactly what I am talking about

There used to even be games of football between the police and falang. Speaking of police, up until this recent change, the police in pai were a non-player - we barely even knew they exsisted. And they did a good job, there were no falang murders and such

since this latest police cheif came into operation, there is an attitude of fear. The police are looking for something wrong - something to justify their position or make money.

They pull falang off the street and throw them into Mae Hon Song jail for failing a piss test.

Another falang we know was deported and thrown for 1 week into the Hole at the Bangkok Hilton before being sent filithy on a flight 'back to his country'

this for not having the correct work permit, but moreso for pissing off the cop who owned the bar across the street.

There were no problems before the police created them.

The issue is that this group of police is used to dealing with drunk expats in Pattaya and in Pai we dont get that sort, so they are falling over themselves to create business for themselves because I think the current police cheif paid alot for his transfer and has a debt to pay.

I am not intrested in tourisim drying up. I am intrested in the evil forces vacating our town. I hope you support us.

I love it when I read an honest post pointing that the origin of a problem is the Thai police themselves because it's right 99% of the time.

They are for the most part totally disorganized from top to bottom, and it's no surprise that someone says the new chief is nothing but yet another criminal in uniform pushing his troops to the limit, little chief who in his head, along with a few local politicians has become yet another little dictating emperor for the area, which still doesn't excuse the shooting cop's behaviour who would probably fail each and every psychological profile from any reputable police force in most countries.

Khunying Pornthip has quite a few stories on her encounters with the Thai police force, they're the same all over with a very few exceptions. Poor her...

Edited February 16, 2008 by sabaijai