Australian Aged Pension

[KhunHeineken]

2 hours ago, Will27 said:

Perhaps as has been suggested previously, if the majority block or just don't reply to his posts, he might run out of steam.

 

I have consistently requested those not interested in discussing the issues of residency and taxation on the pension to block me, but they enjoy trolling, flaming, abusing, and personally attack me, so they don't block me.  

 

Maybe you will have better luck with your request. 

[4MyEgo]

1 hour ago, norbra said:

My plan B is to set aside 24k thb . As an aged pensioner,Thai tax resident,in case my aged pension payments remitted to Thailand be deemed as assessable taxable income.

 

Can I enquire as to how you derived at 24k tbh tax on the age pension ?

 

 

Edited February 18 by 4MyEgo

[norbra]

44 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Can I enquire as to how you derived at 24k tbh tax on the age pension ?

 

 

I bring (not full pension) 1700AUD per month x 12 remitted to TH

190000 tax 0

110000 tax 5% 5500

176,000 tax 10% 17600

Edited February 18 by norbra

[4MyEgo]

1 hour ago, norbra said:

I bring (not full pension) 1700AUD per month x 12 remitted to TH

190000 tax 0

110000 tax 5% 5500

176,000 tax 10% 17600

 

Not disputing the amount of possible future tax that you may have to pay, without even thinking about any alleged new DTA's in the Matrix.....LoL, but from the tax scale I had the threshold is slightly different, see below workings based on your (part age pension) using 23 baht as the exchange rate.

 

$1,700 x 12 = $20,400 pa @ 23 tbh                     = 469,200 tbh -

First 150,000 tbh is Exempt, therefore                 = 319,200 tbh (taxable remittance below)

 

300,000 @ 5%                                                        =      7,500 tbh tax +

  19,500 @ 10%                                                       =      1,950 tbh tax 

                                                                                 =      9,400 thb tax in total

 

Thai Tax Scale

 

Taxable Income per year (Baht)

 

Tax rate 0 – 150,000 Exempt

 

150,000 – 300,000 5% = 7,500 tbh

 

300,000 – 500,000 10% 20,000 tbh

 

500,000 – 750,000 15% 15,000 tbh 

 

Total tax payable = 42,500 tbh

 

I stopped at the 500,000 - 750,000 tbh bracket because the age pension is around 50,000 tbh x 12 = 600,000 tbh pa 

 

Be interested on your thoughts I my workings, and or why your exemption of 190,000 is more than what I found, e.g. any deductibles in it ?

 

 

Edited February 18 by 4MyEgo

[norbra]

14 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Not disputing the amount of possible future tax that you may have to pay in the future, without even thinking about any alleged new DTA's in the Matrix.....LoL, but from the tax scale I had the threshold is slightly different, see below workings based on your (part age pension) using 23 baht as the exchange rate.

 

$1,700 x 12 = $20,400 pa @ 23 tbh                     = 469,200 tbh -

First 150,000 tbh is Exempt, therefore                 = 319,200 tbh (taxable remittance below)

 

300,000 @ 5%                                                        =      7,500 tbh tax +

  19,500 @ 10%                                                       =      1,950 tbh tax 

                                                                                 =      9,400 thb tax in total

 

Thai Tax Scale

 

Taxable Income per year (Baht) Tax rate 0 – 150,000 Exempt

 

150,000 – 300,000 5% = 7,500 tbh

 

300,000 – 500,000 10% 20,000 tbh

 

500,000 – 750,000 15% 15,000 tbh 

 

Total tax payable = 42,500 tbh

 

I stopped at the 500,000 - 750,000 tbh because age pension is around 50,000 tbh x 12 = 600,000 thb

 

Be interested on your thoughts I my workings, and or why your exemption of 190,000 is more than what I found, e.g. any deductibles in it ?

I got the 190000 exempt from a western consultant at a Thai branch of an international tax agency,he advised that 150000 was for Thai nationals.

I can't recall that I asked for this particular information but it came out in conversation.

[4MyEgo]

46 minutes ago, norbra said:

I got the 190000 exempt from a western consultant at a Thai branch of an international tax agency,he advised that 150000 was for Thai nationals.

I can't recall that I asked for this particular information but it came out in conversation.

 

It appears that my calculations in my above post, were wrong once again even with the 150,000 threshold. I stated 9,400 tbh would be your tax liability, wrong.

 

Not saying the western consultant at a Thai branch of an international tax agency is wrong about the 190,000 threshold, but unless you see something in writing to quote what he/she has stated, I would stick with what the Thailand Revenue Department has quoted as the threshold, i.e. 150,000 baht, that said, if he is correct and there is a higher threshold for residents, i.e. individuals who remain in Thailand for (180 days) or more, then that would make your tax liability around 24,440 tbh pa, I therefore stand corrected and admit I was WRONG, however the below tax scale calculations that were also provided are CORRECT for the single full age pension.

 

Your initial post of setting aside 24k tbh sounds correct, based on the 150,000 tbh threshold, i.e. 24,440 tbh

 

Thai Tax Scale

 

Taxable Income per year (Baht)

 

Tax rate 0 – 150,000 Exempt

 

150,000 – 300,000 5% = 7,500 tbh

 

300,000 – 500,000 10% 20,000 tbh

 

500,000 – 750,000 15% 15,000 tbh 

 

Total tax payable = 42,500 tbh on single full age pension.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 18 by 4MyEgo

[JimHuaHin]

On one hand we have the interpretation that the AAP is taxable in Thailand.

 

On the other hand we have the announcement by the Thai RD that income earned prior to 1 January, 2024 and remitted to Thailand after that date will not be taxed in Thailand.

 

If ones AAP is paid into an Australian bank in Australia, and not remitted to Thailand, then it is not taxable in Thailand until the funds, or part of the funds, are remitted to Thailand, correct?

[KhunHeineken]

22 minutes ago, JimHuaHin said:

On one hand we have the interpretation that the AAP is taxable in Thailand.

 

On the other hand we have the announcement by the Thai RD that income earned prior to 1 January, 2024 and remitted to Thailand after that date will not be taxed in Thailand.

 

If ones AAP is paid into an Australian bank in Australia, and not remitted to Thailand, then it is not taxable in Thailand until the funds, or part of the funds, are remitted to Thailand, correct?

This has been discussed, but it's so easy to circumvent, how long before they tweak it? 

[Lacessit]

35 minutes ago, JimHuaHin said:

On one hand we have the interpretation that the AAP is taxable in Thailand.

 

On the other hand we have the announcement by the Thai RD that income earned prior to 1 January, 2024 and remitted to Thailand after that date will not be taxed in Thailand.

 

If ones AAP is paid into an Australian bank in Australia, and not remitted to Thailand, then it is not taxable in Thailand until the funds, or part of the funds, are remitted to Thailand, correct?

Correct. You can transfer savings prior to January 1 for as long as they exist, provided you have documented proof of them. And continue to accumulate your pension in an Australian bank account tax-free.

Which does raise an interesting question - the interest earned on the Australian pension savings - who gets to tax that?

[Will27]

43 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Correct. You can transfer savings prior to January 1 for as long as they exist, provided you have documented proof of them. And continue to accumulate your pension in an Australian bank account tax-free.

Which does raise an interesting question - the interest earned on the Australian pension savings - who gets to tax that?

I'd think any tax on interest would be due to the ATO.

 

[Will27]

On 2/18/2024 at 4:15 PM, KhunHeineken said:

I have consistently requested those not interested in discussing the issues of residency and taxation on the pension to block me, but they enjoy trolling, flaming, abusing, and personally attack me, so they don't block me.  

 

Maybe you will have better luck with your request. 

I do find it mildly amusing that you think posters are trolling, yet there's been 2 posts already removed by the Mods for trolling on the new thread.

 

Guess who they're from

[KhunHeineken]

37 minutes ago, Will27 said:

I do find it mildly amusing that you think posters are trolling, yet there's been 2 posts already removed by the Mods for trolling on the new thread.

 

Guess who they're from

One was for the length of the post.  The other, the first one, was because I posted the long list of ridiculous reasons many members first suggested as to why pensions would never be taxed, yet here we are, facing the very real possibility of pensions being taxed. 

 

If you check out your thread, you will see a particular member just wants to carry on the KH bashing on the new thread. 

 

He posted there is a $32,000 tax free threshold in Australia.  I asked him where he got that from and posted the actual resident tax brackets and link.  Straight into the bashing about how I am hijacking the thread etc.  No mention of how my link is wrong etc etc. 

 

The long post that was deleted I discussed all of the points he raised and never took the p*ss out of him.  The condensed post just specifically addressed his main points. He could have just replied with his own links and quotes, but no. 

 

It's more personal attacks, flaming, baiting, then trolling.  As I said, I have never reported any post, from anyone, ever, and that is being taken advantage of by some. 

Edited February 19 by KhunHeineken

[LosLobo]

38 minutes ago, Will27 said:

Which does raise an interesting question - the interest earned on the Australian pension savings - who gets to tax that?

 

The ATO says that 'if you've given the financial institution your overseas address, the tax will be withheld at the rate of 10%.

Without your overseas address, tax is withheld at 47%.'.

 

Strangely the ATO also states that:

'You don't include this interest as income on your Australian tax return'.

If that is the case how do you claim SAPTO to offset any bank interest?

Investing in bank accounts and income bonds | Australian Taxation Office (ato.gov.au)

Edited February 19 by LosLobo

[Lacessit]

3 minutes ago, LosLobo said:

The ATO says that 'if you've given the financial institution your overseas address, the tax will be withheld at the rate of 10%.

Without your overseas address, tax is withheld at 47%.'.

 

Strangely the ATO also states that:

'You don't include this interest as income on your Australian tax return'.

If that is the case how do you claim SAPTO to offset any bank interest?

Investing in bank accounts and income bonds | Australian Taxation Office (ato.gov.au)

The ATO has my Australian address. My TFN has been quoted to my bank in Australia. I have not given my overseas address to the ATO, nor do I intend to. My principle is to tell bureaucrats the bare minimum.

 

I put in a non-lodgment advice several years ago, and have not heard from the ATO since.

 

When I worked in north-west Australia, I knew a guy who worked as a surveyor. Moved around a lot, earned good money.

 

He had not put in a tax return for 20 years. I don't know if the ATO ever caught up with him.

[Will27]

43 minutes ago, LosLobo said:

 

The ATO says that 'if you've given the financial institution your overseas address, the tax will be withheld at the rate of 10%.

Without your overseas address, tax is withheld at 47%.'.

 

Strangely the ATO also states that:

'You don't include this interest as income on your Australian tax return'.

If that is the case how do you claim SAPTO to offset any bank interest?

Investing in bank accounts and income bonds | Australian Taxation Office (ato.gov.au)

Aren't they talking about non-residents though?

 

Are you assuming people living in Thailand will be classified as non-residents now?

[LosLobo]

12 minutes ago, Will27 said:

Aren't they talking about non-residents though?

 

Are you assuming people living in Thailand will be classified as non-residents now?

I like to always be the 'devils advocate' and assume the worst scenario, and through discussion, hope to be proved wrong.

Is there any evidence that Australians living in Thailand aren't non-residents for tax purposes?

 

Australians living overseas | Australian Taxation Office (ato.gov.au)

Coming to Australia or going overseas | Australian Taxation Office (ato.gov.au)

Edited February 19 by LosLobo

[Mike Lister]

9 minutes ago, LosLobo said:

I like to always be the 'devils advocate' and assume the worst scenario, and through discussion, hope to be proved wrong.

Is there any evidence that Australians living in Thailand aren't non-residents for tax purposes?

 

Australians living overseas | Australian Taxation Office (ato.gov.au)

Coming to Australia or going overseas | Australian Taxation Office (ato.gov.au)

ANYONE who remains in Thailand for more than 180 days in a calendar year, is tax resident here, regardless of nationality or any other factor. Individuals may disagree with that but it is solely the call of the Thai government and nobody else.

[LosLobo]

5 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

ANYONE who remains in Thailand for more than 180 days in a calendar year, is tax resident here, regardless of nationality or any other factor. Individuals may disagree with that but it is solely the call of the Thai government and nobody else.

The discussion was a scenario where is no pension funds were transferred from Australia to Thailand, what tax would be payable on the bank interest on the savings in Australia, nothing to do with Thai government.

 

Edited February 19 by LosLobo

[Lacessit]

3 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

ANYONE who remains in Thailand for more than 180 days in a calendar year, is tax resident here, regardless of nationality or any other factor. Individuals may disagree with that but it is solely the call of the Thai government and nobody else.

Agreed. The question then becomes whether a tax number is required to satisfy visa extension criteria.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, LosLobo said:

The discussion was a scenario where is no pension funds were transferred from Australia to Thailand, what tax would be payable on the bank interest on the savings in Australia, nothing to do with Thai government.

 

It doesn't matter whether any funds are transferred or not, the individual is still regarded as tax resident. Whether or not they should pay tax in Thailand is a different matter, clearly, if they had no income, remitted to Thailand, no tax return is required, ergo, no tax is payable.

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Agreed. The question then becomes whether a tax number is required to satisfy visa extension criteria.

As of now, there is no Immigration requirement that applicants have a Thai TIN in order to extend a permission of stay.

[Lacessit]

7 minutes ago, LosLobo said:

The discussion was a scenario where is no pension funds were transferred from Australia to Thailand, what tax would be payable in Australia, nothing to do with Thai government.

It's a conundrum, because under the DFT someone who is deemed to be tax resident in Thailand can't be taxed by the ATO.

 

Hypothetically, suppose I earn $2000 in interest on a savings deposit in an Australian account.

 

Until I move that $2000 from Australia to Thailand, the authorities there don't know the money exists.

 

 

Edited February 19 by Lacessit

[LosLobo]

4 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

It doesn't matter whether any funds are transferred or not, the individual is still regarded as tax resident. Whether or not they should pay tax in Thailand is a different matter, clearly, if they had no income, remitted to Thailand, no tax return is required, ergo, no tax is payable.

The discussion was about Australians being classed as non-residents in Australia and paying holding tax on interest in Australia.

Edited February 19 by LosLobo

[scorecard]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

It doesn't matter whether any funds are transferred or not, the individual is still regarded as tax resident. Whether or not they should pay tax in Thailand is a different matter, clearly, if they had no income, remitted to Thailand, no tax return is required, ergo, no tax is payable.

But what is not yet answered by the Thai RD is how old age pensions from abroad will be 'classified'.

 

Several weeks back one the western tax consultants posted that he had spoken to a snr officer at the Thai RD on this, specifically mentioning Australians who are living permanently in Thailand, and the Oz OAP is their only income.

 

The Thai RD snr supposedly answered that the Thai RD had no interest in taxing these folks. Also mentioning that Thailand would follow any guidance that appeared in the DTA. 

[LosLobo]

3 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

It's a conundrum, because under the DFT someone who is deemed to be tax resident in Thailand can't be taxed by the ATO.

 

Hypothetically, suppose I earn $2000 in interest on a savings deposit in an Australian account.

 

Until I move that $2000 from Australia to Thailand, the authorities there don't know the money exists.

 

 

DFT? or DTA? Can you quote the section where bank interest is not paid?

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, scorecard said:

But what is not yet answered by the Thai RD is how old age pensions from abroad will be 'classified'.

 

Several weeks back one the western tax consultants posted that he had spoken to a snr officer at the Thai RD on this, specifically mentioning Australians who are living permanently in Thailand, and the Oz OAP is their only income.

 

The Thai RD snr supposedly answered that the Thai RD had no interest in taxing these folks. Also mentioning that Thailand would follow any guidance that appeared in the DTA. 

I'm told the discussion is about Australia and not Thailand hence we might be off topic here, I'm somewhat unsure. SO let me just answer your point and then leave you to it, I only entered because to answer what I thought was a Thai related tax question.

 

When you write, how OA pensions are classified, I don't know what you mean. The Thai RD regards income as assessible or exempt. If the DTA regards it as exempt, that's what it is, otherwise it's assessable. There is no other middle ground scenario that is nationality specific that is separate and apart from the DTA and the Thai tax code.

[Lacessit]

2 minutes ago, LosLobo said:

DFT? or DTA? Can you quote the section where bank interest is not paid?

DTA, my mistake.

My Australian bank does not deduct tax from any interest on deposits, as they have my TFN.

The ATO has not contacted me since I put in a non-lodgment advice a couple of years ago.

I can't quote any sections, I am explaining my individual circumstances.

I guess I could say I am flying under the radar. IMO there are a lot of people that do.

[Will27]

1 hour ago, LosLobo said:

I like to always be the 'devils advocate' and assume the worst scenario, and through discussion, hope to be proved wrong.

Is there any evidence that Australians living in Thailand aren't non-residents for tax purposes?

 

Australians living overseas | Australian Taxation Office (ato.gov.au)

Coming to Australia or going overseas | Australian Taxation Office (ato.gov.au)

Well, going on current legislation some might be residents.

 

The vast majority wouldn't be technically I guess.

But at this point in time, they're still able to claim they are residents through the self assessment system.

 

Even if the non-residence rules that KH talks about are bought in, it's yet to be established if you will still be able to claim residency as per self assessment or not.

 

KH seems to think Centrelink will enforce it whilst I still think it comes under the ATO umbrella.

Edited February 19 by Will27

[Lacessit]

35 minutes ago, Will27 said:

Well, going on current legislation some might be residents.

 

The vast majority wouldn't be technically I guess.

But at this point in time, they're still able to claim they are residents through the self assessment system.

 

Even if the non-residence rules that KH talks about are bought in, it's yet to be established if you will still be able to claim residency as per self assessment or not.

 

KH seems to think Centrelink will enforce it whilst I still think it comes under the ATO umbrella.

After Robodebt, IMO Centrelink will be very wary of enforcing anything.

[Will27]

27 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

After Robodebt, IMO Centrelink will be very wary of enforcing anything.

The issue of residency and non-residency for me come under the purview of the ATO.