Australian Aged Pension

[KhunHeineken]

11 hours ago, Will27 said:

Well, going on current legislation some might be residents.

 

The vast majority wouldn't be technically I guess.

But at this point in time, they're still able to claim they are residents through the self assessment system.

 

Even if the non-residence rules that KH talks about are bought in, it's yet to be established if you will still be able to claim residency as per self assessment or not.

 

KH seems to think Centrelink will enforce it whilst I still think it comes under the ATO umbrella.

I'll address some posts by other members in this one post also.

 

My understanding is any interest earned in a bank account in Australia is  income. That income is added to all other income, including the pension.  You are then taxed on your total income as per the resident tax brackets that have been posted before, but as a resident, you have the advantage of the tax free threshold.

 

If the interest remains within Australia, it is not "remitted funds" to Thailand, so I can't see how Thailand can tax it, HOWEVER, Thailand is looking to join other western countries and tax "worldwide income" as Australia does, which makes the interest earned in Australia something one may have to declare in Thailand in the future.  This is where the DTA, current, or updated DTA, will come into play.  I have posted a link showing the authorities of contracting DTA countries exchange financial information. 

 

Now, as a non resident of Australia for tax purposes, what happens to that interest is debatable.  As a non resident for tax purposes, the interest isn't a pension, so can't hide behind the famous Article 18 and Article 19 of the current DTA.  It is simply money earned in Australia, and as a non resident for tax purposes, we already know the tax is 32.5% from $0 to $120,000, and not just for guys like "Paul Hogan."  .

 

Will27, you have misquoted me to some degree.

 

Throughout lengthy debate on this subject, I have said in my opinion, firstly, it's only a matter of time before either political party passes the proposed changes.  

 

That leaves the process various departments will follow after the new legislation has be passed.  Given the majority of us live in Thailand full time, I suggest after 183 days outside Australia it's clear that under the new legislation we will all be deemed to be non residents of Australia for tax purposes, and leaving the pension aside, that means any other income earned is up for 32.5%. However, under the DTA, you will be given "credit" on this tax should you "remit" the interest to Thailand. 

 

It's also clear that after 180 days inside Thailand, we are all residents of Thailand for tax purposes.  It is interesting that Thailand is using a physical presence and time model, which is exactly what Australia will be moving towards. 

 

In my opinion, the process will roughly be this: 

 

The government will pass the new legislation.  

 

The government will announce the start date of the new legislation.  Eg. 1st July 24, or 1st Jan 25 etc.  There will be some notice given.    

 

After the start date, the clock starts on the 45 days (which may be changed to 90 by the Labor government) and the 183 days.

 

After these days have passed, immigration computers inform Centerlink and the ATO of an Australian National being outside of Australia for these lengths of time.  We already know this happens after 6 weeks for the pension supplements.  A small tweak of the computer system and the same will happen after 45/90 days and after 183 days.  Apart from your full name and date of birth, who knows what information the "chip" in your passport has, but for sure they will know you are outside of Australia, and for how long.  

 

Centerlink will not "enforce" anything.  They will simply "withhold" the appropriate amount of tax on pensions, based on the current DTA and / or any future DTA.  If Article 18 and 19 means no tax, carry on as normal.  If the new DTA looks similar to the Germany DTA, I would think Centerlink would withhold 15% of the pension, most likely on a fortnightly basis.

 

Centerlink will then forward the withholding tax to the ATO and it will go towards consolidated revenue. 

 

Back to the interest earned.  I can't see the ATO informing the bank to withhold 32.5%, HOWEVER, if you don't supply a TFN they withhold 47%, so that infrastructure is already in place.  Over the last few years we have all had to tell our banks if we are a resident of Australia or not, so something must be happening behind the scenes. 

 

Perhaps Immigration tell the ATO you are a non resident and the ATO sends out all the non resident TFN's to the banks and the bank withholds the 32.5%.  Who knows?  I just can't see interest earned being non resident tax free. 

 

I've been called "negative" here before, but I am similar to LosLobo in that, assume the worse, and everything else is a bonus when it comes to tax an bureaucracy, 

 

Basically, it's all designed to stop people like myself, and many others, from flying under the ATO radar. 

 

For the record, some of the above is FACT and some of the above in my OPINION.  I am not saying I am right and you are wrong.  It's all open to discussion and debate.   

Edited February 20 by KhunHeineken

[Will27]

25 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

I'll address some posts by other members in this one post also.

 

My understanding is any interest earned in a bank account in Australia is  income. That income is added to all other income, including the pension.  You are then taxed on your total income as per the resident tax brackets that have been posted before, but as a resident, you have the advantage of the tax free threshold.

 

If the interest remains within Australia, it is not "remitted funds" to Thailand, so I can't see how Thailand can tax it, HOWEVER, Thailand is looking to join other western countries and tax "worldwide income" as Australia does, which makes the interest earned in Australia something one may have to declare in Thailand in the future.  This is where the DTA, current, or updated DTA, will come into play.  I have posted a link showing the authorities of contracting DTA countries exchange financial information. 

 

Now, as a non resident of Australia for tax purposes, what happens to that interest is debatable.  As a non resident for tax purposes, the interest isn't a pension, so can't hide behind the famous Article 18 and Article 19 of the current DTA.  It is simply money earned in Australia, and as a non resident for tax purposes, we already know the tax is 32.5% from $0 to $120,000, and not just for guys like "Paul Hogan."  .

 

Will27, you have misquoted me to some degree.

 

Throughout lengthy debate on this subject, I have said in my opinion, firstly, it's only a matter of time before either political party passes the proposed changes.  

 

That leaves the process various departments will follow after the new legislation has be passed.  Given the majority of us live in Thailand full time, I suggest after 183 days outside Australia it's clear that under the new legislation we will all be deemed to be non residents of Australia for tax purposes, and leaving the pension aside, that means any other income earned is up for 32.5%. However, under the DTA, you will be given "credit" on this tax should you "remit" the interest to Thailand. 

 

It's also clear that after 180 days inside Thailand, we are all residents of Thailand for tax purposes.  It is interesting that Thailand is using a physical presence and time model, which is exactly what Australia will be moving towards. 

 

In my opinion, the process will roughly be this: 

 

The government will pass the new legislation.  

 

The government will announce the start date of the new legislation.  Eg. 1st July 24, or 1st Jan 25 etc.  There will be some notice given.    

 

After the start date, the clock starts on the 45 days (which may be changed to 90 by the Labor government) and the 183 days.

 

After these days have passed, immigration computers inform Centerlink and the ATO of an Australian National being outside of Australia for these lengths of time.  We already know this happens after 6 weeks for the pension supplements.  A small tweak of the computer system and the same will happen after 45/90 days and after 183 days.  Apart from your full name and date of birth, who knows what information the "chip" in your passport has, but for sure they will know you are outside of Australia, and for how long.  

 

Centerlink will not "enforce" anything.  They will simply "withhold" the appropriate amount of tax on pensions, based on the current DTA and / or any future DTA.  If Article 18 and 19 means no tax, carry on as normal.  If the new DTA looks similar to the Germany DTA, I would think Centerlink would withhold 15% of the pension, most likely on a fortnightly basis.

 

Centerlink will then forward the withholding tax to the ATO and it will go towards consolidated revenue. 

 

Back to the interest earned.  I can't see the ATO informing the bank to withhold 32.5%, HOWEVER, if you don't supply a TFN they withhold 47%, so that infrastructure is already in place.  Over the last few years we have all had to tell our banks if we are a resident of Australia or not, so something must be happening behind the scenes. 

 

Perhaps Immigration tell the ATO you are a non resident and the ATO sends out all the non resident TFN's to the banks and the bank withholds the 32.5%.  Who knows?  I just can't see interest earned being non resident tax free. 

 

I've been called "negative" here before, but I am similar to LosLobo in that, assume the worse, and everything else is a bonus when it comes to tax an bureaucracy, 

 

Basically, it's all designed to stop people like myself, and many others, from flying under the ATO radar. 

 

For the record, some of the above is FACT and some of the above in my OPINION.  I am not saying I am right and you are wrong.  It's all open to discussion and debate.   

I've already debated this with you repeatedly.

I'm not going to go around the mullberry bush with you again and again.

 

I've got a completely different opinion on how, if bought in, the new proposals will be enforced.

 

At this stage, no one knows.

 

Keep rehashing the same stuff doesn't make it right, or wrong.

 

Let's agree to disagaree.

[KhunHeineken]

13 minutes ago, Will27 said:

I've already debated this with you repeatedly.

I'm not going to go around the mullberry bush with you again and again.

 

I've got a completely different opinion on how, if bought in, the new proposals will be enforced.

 

At this stage, no one knows.

 

Keep rehashing the same stuff doesn't make it right, or wrong.

 

Let's agree to disagaree.

No problem.  Everyone's entitled to their opinions and predictions. 

 

Time will tell what will happen, and how the government will implement the system.

 

This is something we will all have to wait for and then supply more links with facts. 

 

I just set the record straight when you posted I said Centerlink will enforce it all.  That was not the case.

Edited February 20 by KhunHeineken

[Lacessit]

What are we as pensioners?

 

To the politicians, we are a bloody nuisance. A drain on the public purse, and a fairly powerful lobby group. As some have found out to their cost at the ballot box.

 

To Centrelink, we are a precedent. Every Australian approaching pension age is expecting the same benefits as we are getting now.

 

To the ATO, we are an afterthought. Most of the tax juice was wrung out of us when we were in the PAYE system, or running our own companies. What's left really is not worth bothering about.

 

One of the under-appreciated features of Thailand is its cash economy.

 

I don't see much point in tying myself into knots about what may or may not happen. I've put strategies in place to address them if they occur. I recommend others do the same.

 

If you fail to plan, you plan to fail.

[Will27]

31 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

No problem.  Everyone's entitled to their opinions and predictions. 

 

Time will tell what will happen, and how the government will implement the system.

 

This is something we will all have to wait for and then supply more links with facts. 

 

I just set the record straight when you posted I said Centerlink will enforce it all.  That was not the case.

You pretty much said Centrelink will deduct tax as if you're a non-resident.

 

Again, I don't think it's their job.

 

You also said this which I think is absurd.

 

"Perhaps Immigration tell the ATO you are a non resident and the ATO sends out all the non resident TFN's to the banks and the bank withholds the 32.5%".

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

4 hours ago, Lacessit said:

What are we as pensioners?

 

To the politicians, we are a bloody nuisance. A drain on the public purse, and a fairly powerful lobby group. As some have found out to their cost at the ballot box.

 

To Centrelink, we are a precedent. Every Australian approaching pension age is expecting the same benefits as we are getting now.

 

To the ATO, we are an afterthought. Most of the tax juice was wrung out of us when we were in the PAYE system, or running our own companies. What's left really is not worth bothering about.

 

One of the under-appreciated features of Thailand is its cash economy.

 

I don't see much point in tying myself into knots about what may or may not happen. I've put strategies in place to address them if they occur. I recommend others do the same.

 

If you fail to plan, you plan to fail.

I agree with your summary, but I think you underestimate the wealth of many pensioners.  

 

A lot of pensioners are "boomers."  They hold  lot of wealth in savings, property, and shares.  They made good money in an era when Australia was prosperous, and there was a lot of cash in hand work around.  They are also "the bank of Mum and Dad" for the younger generation trying to get into the property market. 

 

Creative accounting is also benefiting them now, 

 

Of course, on this thread, we are mainly discussing pensioners living fortnight to fortnight on their pension in Thailand, but the demographic called "pensioners" are all put into one group.  Some are quite wealthy, others live fortnight to fortnight. 

[KhunHeineken]

4 hours ago, Will27 said:

You pretty much said Centrelink will deduct tax as if you're a non-resident.

 

Again, I don't think it's their job.

 

You also said this which I think is absurd.

 

"Perhaps Immigration tell the ATO you are a non resident and the ATO sends out all the non resident TFN's to the banks and the bank withholds the 32.5%".

 

 

Maybe you can post your definition of "enforce." 

 

Centerlink stop supplement payments on pensions after 6 weeks outside of Australia.  Is that "enforcement" or withholding? 

 

If you don't supply your bank your TFN, they withhold 47% tax on any interest earned.  Is that "enforcement" or withholding tax?

 

It's your right to think the ATO informing banks of  an account holder's residency status as absurd.  I think it's a long bow to draw as well, but times are changing, and as I said, I can't see interest earned by non residents getting a non resident tax free pass.  I've also said for the new Thai tax on foreigners system to work, the Thai banks will have to be involved.   

 

If what I said is absurd, can you offer any idea as to how they tax it.  As Lacessit said, "if you fail to plan, you plan to fail" so I consider anything and everything.

 

Here's a scenario.  A pensioner living in Thailand sells a house in the outer Sydney suburbs for $1.5 million AUD.  That's around the going rate these days.  They put the proceeds into a bank account paying, for example purposes, 5%.  They earn around $75,000 a year in interest.  I've suggested one way the ATO may get their hands on it, which you say is absurd, and that fine, but you can suggest how they may get their hands on it, because I sure don't think it's going to be non resident tax free.

 

A friend of mine is facing the above scenario.  His father is 95 years old.   

 

My thinking is, assuming the account has a TFN supplied, a tax return on $75,000 earnings will have to be submitted, so straight away there goes the pension, then, the ATO knows through immigration you are a non resident, so there goes your tax free threshold and in comes the 32.5%.  Happy to debate this if you think it is incorrect. 

 

Once again, I'm not saying I am right and you are wrong.  Just trying to get some collective subjectivity into how the new system will work because unlike the old system, it will be impossible to claim you are still a tax resident of Australia when you are living in Thailand. 

[Mike Lister]

Reign it in and do as asked or there will be consequences. It's your choice

[KhunHeineken]

I think this link covers everything.  

 

https://www.ato.gov.au/individuals-and-families/investments-and-assets/investing-in-bank-accounts-and-income-bonds

 

"Banks and other investment bodies report to the ATO the interest they pay to account holders and investors. We match this information with the amounts people report in their tax returns to ensure that all income is being declared. If we find a discrepancy, we do adjust tax returns and penalties can apply."

 

So, the banks send the information to the ATO.  The ATO doesn't even request it from the banks.  

 

I suggested this is how the Thai tax on foreigners would have to work also.

 

Might be a good idea to supply your bank with your Thai address after the proposed changes come in.  

 

"Financial institutions automatically withhold tax from interest earned on accounts held by foreign residents.  If you've given the financial institution your overseas address, the tax will be withheld at the rate of 10%. Without your overseas address, tax is withheld at 47%.  You don't include this interest as income on your Australian tax return."

 

In my opinion, the above will rely on the proposed changes and information from immigration.  No longer can you give your bank an Australian address, when the ATO know you are outside of Australia for 183 days. 

 

The ATO even wants the interest earned in Thailand.  That's the tax on "worldwide income."

 

"Some tax authorities in other countries don't require you to report interest earned overseas, but we do. If you hold bank accounts in other countries, you must report any interest or other income earned from these accounts in your Australian income tax return. You may have to pay additional charges if you don't do this."

 

Once again, I am not saying I am right and you are wrong.  Some is fact and some is my opinion, but interesting times ahead. 

 

As I have mentioned before, for significant cash holdings, a global bank in Singapore may be the solution. 

Edited February 20 by KhunHeineken

[4MyEgo]

On 2/19/2024 at 10:42 PM, LosLobo said:

The ATO says that 'if you've given the financial institution your overseas address, the tax will be withheld at the rate of 10%.

 

Correct

 

On 2/19/2024 at 10:42 PM, LosLobo said:

Without your overseas address, tax is withheld at 47%.'.

 

Correct

 

On 2/19/2024 at 10:42 PM, LosLobo said:

Strangely the ATO also states that:

'You don't include this interest as income on your Australian tax return'.

If that is the case how do you claim SAPTO to offset any bank interest?

 

Correct, and the reason for that I would suggest, is because non-residents cannot claim anything back come tax time, you are merely submitting a tax return on income earned as a non-resident, e.g. if you have an investment property, you cannot offset any losses under the normal negative gearing scenario, albeit it, you can, if I recall correctly claim back some items when you sell the property to reduce your capital gains tax liabilities.

 

SAPTO would be a totally different situation when it comes to the ATO.

[LosLobo]

29 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Correct

 

 

Correct

 

 

Correct, and the reason for that I would suggest, is because non-residents cannot claim anything back come tax time, you are merely submitting a tax return on income earned as a non-resident, e.g. if you have an investment property, you cannot offset any losses under the normal negative gearing scenario, albeit it, you can, if I recall correctly claim back some items when you sell the property to reduce your capital gains tax liabilities.

 

SAPTO would be a totally different situation when it comes to the ATO.

You would think that if you were eligible for SAPTO you could claim the offset and reduce the holding tax that has already been deducted, but maybe not?

Nevertheless, 10% holding tax on the interest on my savings would be miniscule.

Edited February 21 by LosLobo
Thanks Lacessit

[Lacessit]

6 minutes ago, LosLobo said:

Nevertheless, 10% interest on my savings would be miniscule.

???? Don't you mean the tax of 10% on the interest earned by your savings would be miniscule?

[4MyEgo]

10 hours ago, LosLobo said:

You would think that if you were eligible for SAPTO you could claim the offset and reduce the holding tax that has already been deducted, but maybe not?

 

Unfortunately the Australia Government, be it the ATO or whoever, just love it when we in one way or another say we are leaving home, e.g. ATO, oh is that so, well have a great time, just remember to pay 32.5% on everything you earn from Australia, plus your 10% withholding tax on interest, don't worry, we will make sure you can't vote as well, and cancel your Medicare when you have been out of the country for 5 years continuously and don't bother trying to claim anything to reduce your tax liabilities, because we won't allow you.

 

ATO continues, ah yes, you wanted to leave the lucky country and not accept things for the way they are, you know things like high interest rates, excessive rents, and then there is the cost of living, oh well, enjoy your new life while everyone else suffers 😍. 

 

10 hours ago, LosLobo said:

Nevertheless, 10% holding tax on the interest on my savings would be miniscule.

 

Yes the 10% withholding tax deducted from interest earned, e.g. $100 interest, $10 deducted is miniscule.

[4MyEgo]

Here is a question to all who have been back to Oz to get the Age Pension, stayed the 2 years for portability and returned to Thailand to live.

 

My questions is if one goes back, stays for 2 years, comes back and then goes back again, (short stints of say 2-3 months), then leaves again and does this year in, year out, can it impair ones Age Pension portability, i.e. Centrelink stop payments when you leave again, it's just that I heard something on those lines, but can't find anything to confirm it.

 

I did also hear that if you were in Oz, 2 years prior to the Age Pension age, portability was instant once the Age Pension was approved and there was no issue coming and going as many times as you like.

 

Edited February 22 by 4MyEgo

[LosLobo]

1 hour ago, 4MyEgo said:

Here is a question to all who have been back to Oz to get the Age Pension, stayed the 2 years for portability and returned to Thailand to live.

 

My questions is if one goes back, stays for 2 years, comes back and then goes back again, (short stints of say 2-3 months), then leaves again and does this year in, year out, can it impair ones Age Pension portability, i.e. Centrelink stop payments when you leave again, it's just that I heard something on those lines, but can't find anything to confirm it.

 

There was some 'chatter' about portability not being indefinite some years ago, but this seems to have stopped.

I think I even found a reference at the time on the DSS site but cannot now. 

Maybe COVID put damper on it as many former residents who already had portability returned home.

Morrison said Australia was closing its borders and put a deadline of anyone returning.

I think there were many concessions allowed at the time by Centrelink.

Many Centrelink customers on holidays who could not get flights back were allowed dispensations.

This is from 2016, it may or may not be current:

 

Indefinite Portability of Pensions and Former Residents
 

'You should note that even if you return to Australia and “resume residing” after receiving Age Pension overseas for years, there is a risk that these provisions could prevent you from being paid outside Australia again.

Centrelink may take the view that you have “resumed residing” in Australia and you would have to continue “residing” in Australia for 2 years before having indefinite portability of your payment.

However, if you can show that you only returned to Australia for a visit and never intended to permanently return then the rules would not apply to you'.

BRQ-IndefinitePortabilityandFormerResidents-BRQ2016.pdf

 

Edited February 22 by LosLobo

[4MyEgo]

13 hours ago, LosLobo said:

There was some 'chatter' about portability not being indefinite some years ago, but this seems to have stopped.

I think I even found a reference at the time on the DSS site but cannot now. 

Maybe COVID put damper on it as many former residents who already had portability returned home.

Morrison said Australia was closing its borders and put a deadline of anyone returning.

I think there were many concessions allowed at the time by Centrelink.

Many Centrelink customers on holidays who could not get flights back were allowed dispensations.

This is from 2016, it may or may not be current:

 

Indefinite Portability of Pensions and Former Residents
 

'You should note that even if you return to Australia and “resume residing” after receiving Age Pension overseas for years, there is a risk that these provisions could prevent you from being paid outside Australia again.

Centrelink may take the view that you have “resumed residing” in Australia and you would have to continue “residing” in Australia for 2 years before having indefinite portability of your payment.

However, if you can show that you only returned to Australia for a visit and never intended to permanently return then the rules would not apply to you'.

BRQ-IndefinitePortabilityandFormerResidents-BRQ2016.pdf

 

 

Interesting, thanks for that.

 

Surely the 2 year period is a one off for former residents, I say that because the section below, copy and pasted and link provided, isn't really clear about having to repeat the process, e.g. if one was to return for short periods of time after qualifying and having their Age Pension portability approved.

 

It only discuses former residents returning to qualify, and then go back overseas. If one had to repeat the process, that would be a real pain, e.g. lets say I went back, qualified, then returned to Thailand after portability was granted, and I wanted to return for a 2-3 month period say twice a year at most, maybe once a year, but lets say twice a year, for whatever reason, then had to start the process all over again, fark that.

 

I mean lets assume I am staying with family, have no lease in my name, no utility bills in my name and am travelling around Australia for parts of those 2-3 month periods, I wouldn't have really re-established residency as far as I can see ?

 

Interesting to get thoughts on this and ay members who do return, stay for a while then come back, and of course other members interpretations, as I wouldn't want any surprises if I did go back as I possibly plan my sneak attack, so to speak.

 

Portability for former residents - Age, DSP

Since 20 September 2000, a former resident who returns to Australia and is granted Age or DSP, or who transfers to Age under SS(Admin)Act section 12, cannot take that pension outside Australia if they leave within 2 years of having resumed residence in Australia. The purpose of this legislation is to discourage people from travelling to Australia just to get an Australian pension to take back overseas.

The 2-year period includes, as separate full days, the day on which the recipient returns to Australia to resume Australian residence and the day on which they leave again.

There is no discretionary power to allow portability of Age or DSP during the 2-year period (note, some exceptions to the 2-year rule apply - see below).

Payment may be suspended for short overseas absences during the 2-year period and does not have to be reclaimed on return to Australia. A short absence from Australia (as long as the person is still classed as an Australian resident) will not impact on the end date of the 2-year period (i.e. the absence still counts towards the person's 2-year period).

 

https://guides.dss.gov.au/social-security-guide/7/1/4

[Will27]

15 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Interesting, thanks for that.

 

Surely the 2 year period is a one off for former residents, I say that because the section below, copy and pasted and link provided, isn't really clear about having to repeat the process, e.g. if one was to return for short periods of time after qualifying and having their Age Pension portability approved.

 

It only discuses former residents returning to qualify, and then go back overseas. If one had to repeat the process, that would be a real pain, e.g. lets say I went back, qualified, then returned to Thailand after portability was granted, and I wanted to return for a 2-3 month period say twice a year at most, maybe once a year, but lets say twice a year, for whatever reason, then had to start the process all over again, fark that.

 

I mean lets assume I am staying with family, have no lease in my name, no utility bills in my name and am travelling around Australia for parts of those 2-3 month periods, I wouldn't have really re-established residency as far as I can see ?

 

Interesting to get thoughts on this and ay members who do return, stay for a while then come back, and of course other members interpretations, as I wouldn't want any surprises if I did go back as I possibly plan my sneak attack, so to speak.

 

Portability for former residents - Age, DSP

Since 20 September 2000, a former resident who returns to Australia and is granted Age or DSP, or who transfers to Age under SS(Admin)Act section 12, cannot take that pension outside Australia if they leave within 2 years of having resumed residence in Australia. The purpose of this legislation is to discourage people from travelling to Australia just to get an Australian pension to take back overseas.

The 2-year period includes, as separate full days, the day on which the recipient returns to Australia to resume Australian residence and the day on which they leave again.

There is no discretionary power to allow portability of Age or DSP during the 2-year period (note, some exceptions to the 2-year rule apply - see below).

Payment may be suspended for short overseas absences during the 2-year period and does not have to be reclaimed on return to Australia. A short absence from Australia (as long as the person is still classed as an Australian resident) will not impact on the end date of the 2-year period (i.e. the absence still counts towards the person's 2-year period).

 

https://guides.dss.gov.au/social-security-guide/7/1/4

Yep

The 2 year period is a one once off.

 

I know two people here who have portability and have been told by Centrelink it's forever.

 

Here's some more info.

 

https://www.mlc.com.au/content/dam/mlcsecure/adviser/technical/pdf/age-pension-qualification-and-portability.pdf

 

 

[4MyEgo]

4 hours ago, Will27 said:

Yep

The 2 year period is a one once off.

 

I know two people here who have portability and have been told by Centrelink it's forever.

 

Here's some more info.

 

https://www.mlc.com.au/content/dam/mlcsecure/adviser/technical/pdf/age-pension-qualification-and-portability.pdf

 

Thank for that, however I read this at the bottom of page 7 in the link, your thoughts please.

 

Former residents If a person who was previously an Australian resident returns to Australia after a period overseas, they may be transferred back to being assessed by Centrelink for an ‘autonomous pension’. These are Australian pensions granted under ordinary rules, which are not reliant upon an international social security agreement to be granted.  If a person who has returned after an absence departs Australia within two years of becoming  an Australian resident again, the autonomous pension is not payable outside of Australia (ie the  general portability rules will not apply)17. If, however, they are again travelling to a country with  which Australia has an agreement within this two year time frame, they may be eligible for  benefits under the agreement (ie the agreement overrides the general portability conditions). 

[Will27]

2 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Thank for that, however I read this at the bottom of page 7 in the link, your thoughts please.

 

Former residents If a person who was previously an Australian resident returns to Australia after a period overseas, they may be transferred back to being assessed by Centrelink for an ‘autonomous pension’. These are Australian pensions granted under ordinary rules, which are not reliant upon an international social security agreement to be granted.  If a person who has returned after an absence departs Australia within two years of becoming  an Australian resident again, the autonomous pension is not payable outside of Australia (ie the  general portability rules will not apply)17. If, however, they are again travelling to a country with  which Australia has an agreement within this two year time frame, they may be eligible for  benefits under the agreement (ie the agreement overrides the general portability conditions). 

My take is when they say "former residents" they're referring to people living overseas who are coming back to claim the pension. Not people living overseas who have portability.

 

[4MyEgo]

23 minutes ago, Will27 said:

My take is when they say "former residents" they're referring to people living overseas who are coming back to claim the pension. Not people living overseas who have portability.

 

Interesting, we would hope that, that's the case, because if you return and have established residency again, and they said you have to wait 2 years again, that would be a major deterrent to go back after portability was approved. 

[Will27]

1 minute ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Interesting, we would hope that, that's the case, because if you return and have established residency again, and they said you have to wait 2 years again, that would be a major deterrent to go back after portability was approved. 

I can't see that happening TBH.

Pretty sure once you have portability, that's it.

[Artisi]

it's a one off - I travelled in and out many times for short stays after gaining portability without any problems. 

[Artisi]

Getting back to what this all about - "Australian Aged Pension" for anyone returning to Aust for claim their Old Aged Pension and have concerns about being out of the country for a while and portability, my post of Jan 19 2008 could be of interest  - I was "out" of Aust for 6 years and after wheeling and dealing with Centrelink was granted portability without the 2 year wait. There may well be a few changes over this period, but it could worth looking at.  

[4MyEgo]

3 hours ago, Artisi said:

it's a one off - I travelled in and out many times for short stays after gaining portability without any problems. 

 

Thanks

Edited February 23 by 4MyEgo

[4MyEgo]

3 hours ago, Artisi said:

Getting back to what this all about - "Australian Aged Pension" for anyone returning to Aust for claim their Old Aged Pension and have concerns about being out of the country for a while and portability, my post of Jan 19 2008 could be of interest  - I was "out" of Aust for 6 years and after wheeling and dealing with Centrelink was granted portability without the 2 year wait. There may well be a few changes over this period, but it could worth looking at.  

 

I just read your post of 19 January 2008 and can only provide you with what I have found, first link basically says, that there is no room for negotiations when it comes to the 2 year rule, so to speak. 

 

Portability for former residents - Age, DSP

 

Since 20 September 2000, a former resident who returns to Australia and is granted Age or DSP, or who transfers to Age under SS(Admin)Act section 12, cannot take that pension outside Australia if they leave within 2 years of having resumed residence in Australia. The purpose of this legislation is to discourage people from travelling to Australia just to get an Australian pension to take back overseas.

The 2-year period includes, as separate full days, the day on which the recipient returns to Australia to resume Australian residence and the day on which they leave again.

There is no discretionary power to allow portability of Age or DSP during the 2-year period (note, some exceptions to the 2-year rule apply - see below).

Payment may be suspended for short overseas absences during the 2-year period and does not have to be reclaimed on return to Australia. A short absence from Australia (as long as the person is still classed as an Australian resident) will not impact on the end date of the 2-year period (i.e. the absence still counts towards the person's 2-year period).

 

https://guides.dss.gov.au/social-security-guide/7/1/4

 

The 2nd, you could quite possibly be right, providing you fit the criteria and get your facts across as you did, i.e. dig in.

 

Portability and residence

The availability of short-term portability (excluding DSP, Widow B and Wife pensions) depends on whether the customer continues to satisfy the residence requirements. In deciding whether a person travelling overseas for a short time continues to reside in Australia, regard is given to the nature of the person's accommodation in Australia, family relationships, employment, business, financial ties, assets and the frequency of or duration of travel outside Australia. Recipients who return to Australia just to renew their portability period would not satisfy the 'residing in Australia' criterion and would not qualify for continued payment.

Further information on the residence requirements can be found in the Social Security Guide at Chapter 3.1.1.10 Residence Requirements.

 

https://www.dss.gov.au/about-the-department/international/policy/portability-of-australian-income-support-payments

 

Very interesting, thanks for that, not that it helps me, but it might help others who still claim to be Residents, e.g. lodge tax returns, have property, family in Australia etc etc.

 

EDIT:

 

Digging in even deeper, fascinating stuff that I have not come across before.

 

A person does not need to be continuously present in a country in order to be residing there. A person holidaying or working temporarily overseas does not necessarily cease to reside in Australia while they are away.

It is necessary to find the reason for being overseas and to look closely at the pattern and duration of time spent outside Australia in order to ascertain whether a person continues to reside in Australia. For Australian residence to be maintained during an absence, a person must demonstrate continued physical ties to Australia, the absence must be for a short duration, there must be a purpose for the absence and there must be a proposed end date for the absence.

Taken in isolation, a 3-year continuous absence would be regarded as an upper limit to still being considered residing in Australia, unless there are special circumstances delaying a return. When looking at the pattern and duration of time spent outside Australia, if a person regularly spends more than 6 months a year outside Australia, then their residence in Australia is questionable.

The purpose of an overseas absence may indicate whether a person continues to reside in Australia. The reason should be consistent with the intended length of the absence. For example, a person working on an 18-month overseas contract posting would still be considered to reside in Australia as long as they have demonstrated ongoing physical ties to Australia and a commitment to return to Australia at the end of the posting.

It is not uncommon for a person to remain overseas for a lengthy period of time but state that they intend to return to Australia to live at some uncertain, future date. In general, when a person states that they are leaving Australia temporarily with the intention of returning to Australia, the person's 'intent' becomes less of a factor as the length of the absence increases. A person's physical ties with a country will normally take precedence over their intentions when lengthy periods of time are involved.

A person who has spent the majority of their time overseas in the last few years and who returns to Australia to claim a benefit will not necessarily be eligible from the day they return to Australia. The person must demonstrate that their physical ties with Australia have been re-established, or are in the process of being established and that they intend to reside again in Australia.

 

https://guides.dss.gov.au/social-security-guide/3/1/1/10

 

Edited February 23 by 4MyEgo

[Artisi]

2 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

I just read your post of 19 January 2008 and can only provide you with what the below states, which basically says, that there is no room for negotiations when it comes to the 2 year rule, so to speak. 

 

Portability for former residents - Age, DSP

 

Since 20 September 2000, a former resident who returns to Australia and is granted Age or DSP, or who transfers to Age under SS(Admin)Act section 12, cannot take that pension outside Australia if they leave within 2 years of having resumed residence in Australia. The purpose of this legislation is to discourage people from travelling to Australia just to get an Australian pension to take back overseas.

The 2-year period includes, as separate full days, the day on which the recipient returns to Australia to resume Australian residence and the day on which they leave again.

There is no discretionary power to allow portability of Age or DSP during the 2-year period (note, some exceptions to the 2-year rule apply - see below).

Payment may be suspended for short overseas absences during the 2-year period and does not have to be reclaimed on return to Australia. A short absence from Australia (as long as the person is still classed as an Australian resident) will not impact on the end date of the 2-year period (i.e. the absence still counts towards the person's 2-year period).

 

https://guides.dss.gov.au/social-security-guide/7/1/4

 

I will say this, your argument at the time stating that you were a Resident because of all of your ties to Australia would have had merit back in the day, but if you read the bold text above, it basically states that there is no discretionary power to allow portability during the 2 year period and you wouldn't be able to do it again today IMO, even though you have ties to Australia to say that you are a Resident, even though you resided overseas for 6 years, I say that because I did read a while back, that if you were in one spot, they classed that as your abode, however if you travelled around, you could get away with it. 

 

The above said, I can see where your coming from with your argument, but most expats don't have a place back in Oz, or ties as you did. Would be interesting if someone could pull this off again, because a Resident of Australia is a Resident of Australia, but a returning Former Resident by the definition of the word, might stand a chance, if they could prove that they are a Resident, e.g. property, car, family, pays taxes every year etc etc, I personally would give it a go, but the above wording in bold text states otherwise IMO.

 

What would have helped is in the previous 2 years I returned to Aust about 6 times, couple of holiday type visits, 2 weddings and the passing of my mother - this was all documented in my discussions. 

Actually it didn't really matter as the plan was to be there about 4 years as my wife was attending university, I just kept pushing to reduce the hassle and inconvenience of notifying centrelink each year of leaving / returning as I planned to visit Thailand each year to keep my retirement visa extension current. 

Maybe I was just lucky. 

[Will27]

40 minutes ago, Artisi said:

What would have helped is in the previous 2 years I returned to Aust about 6 times, couple of holiday type visits, 2 weddings and the passing of my mother - this was all documented in my discussions. 

Actually it didn't really matter as the plan was to be there about 4 years as my wife was attending university, I just kept pushing to reduce the hassle and inconvenience of notifying centrelink each year of leaving / returning as I planned to visit Thailand each year to keep my retirement visa extension current. 

Maybe I was just lucky. 

Yep

A bit like the residency rules for the ATO.

 

Everyone's circumstances are different.

I couldn't imagine people who have hardly gone back to Australia, if at all getting portability straight away.

[scorecard]

2 hours ago, Will27 said:

Yep

A bit like the residency rules for the ATO.

 

Everyone's circumstances are different.

I couldn't imagine people who have hardly gone back to Australia, if at all getting portability straight away.

 

On that point, yes portability is dependant on returning for 2 years to 're-establish a home'.

My experience:

- I flew to Sydney (I was already aware from lots of reading that 'the 2 years starts on the day the citizen arrives in Australia.

- I:

• Quickly went to the local Centrelink office and got a CRN Centrelink Reference number
• Showed various cards etc., to prove my ID
• Submitted my 2 completed OAP application forms (C'link local officer submitted the documents by using their multi document multi purpose machine in the local office.  (I was aware from talking to the C'link officer that the OAP application is mostly processed by computer under supervision in Canberra / It's not processed at all in local C'link branch offices.
• 17 Days later (yes 17 days) I got a call from Canberra to tell me my OAP was approved. The pleasant young man explained very clearly and asked me to repeat my Aust. bank a/c number and he confirmed he had the same number. He explained that the back payment would be in the bank before lunch the next day and it was.
•  

- About 10 days after the 2 years I called the Older Australians Line (C'link) 132300 and said to the lady that I didn't really understand what Portability meant. She politely explained. Can automatically receive the payments anywhere in the world for life paid direct into any bank account I nominated. She shared that It can be a joint savings account, preferably with a family member. I asked about what are the rules about signing for withdrawals from my bank. She laughed a little them said 'That your business totally, C'link has no policy or rules about that.

- I then asked 'Can you please tell me If I am entitled to Portability?

- Response 'give me one minute to get that screen' then 'Yes you qualified about 10 days ago. Do you need more information how to process?' I responded:

• 'Please tell me if my payments decrease If I move abroad?' C'link lady response 'Your OAP amount and the supplement amount don't change but your energy and rent assistance will stop'
• I responded 'I guess it's now up to me to decide If I want to go abroad permanently and then advise C'link' She replied YES but please tell us quickly online when you leave Australia so that there's no complications and so we can easily contact you by telephone if needed, we do already have the dates you depart / arrive in Australia from our 24/7 link to Immigration / passport records.
• The main thing is to give us your banking details abroad. She continued 'I'm sending you the Banking abroad form to your e.mail right now' She continued 'please be sure that the bank account name and bank account number are very clear. She continued 'the C'link bank form for payments abroad must have full details of the bank abroad, a bank stamp and must be signed by the branch / assistant branch manager'.
• She asked several times if I had any questions, then she gave me a dedicated e.mail address for Services Australia to return the completed bank form. She added' it's up to you but can I suggest you make a word document, no need for any special boxes or special formatting just type in all the details from the hand written C'link form, print it and add that document to the completed C'link document and e.mail both documents to the Services Australia e.mail address.
• I did all the above quickly, then 2 or 3 days later I got a call (in Thailand) from the Service Australia office, the very polite young man wanted to double check all the banking details.
• For the bank account number he said 'can you please tell me the first 3 numbers of your bank account number then I will repeat them back to you by reading from the document I have here in Brisbane. This continued until he was happy that there was no chance of any mistake.
• Then he said 'you will now be transferred to the 4 weekly payment cycle and the first payment will be transferred to K bank on xx/xx/xxxx and it was.
• Again any questions and then he gave me a direct telephone line number if needed.
• The first payment was received on the date he had advised and I got an e.mail a day before explaining how the payment total had been calculated. 

Edited February 23 by scorecard

[Olmate]

From AU Current Affair... 5months  wait to apply OAP

[4MyEgo]

39 minutes ago, Olmate said:

From AU Current Affair... 5months  wait to apply OAP

 

I hope this doesn't spread and becomes to; returning former residents have a 2 year waiting period before they can receive the Age Pension.