Australian Aged Pension

[Artisi]

bgood - I was probably not clear with the point being made, if you are classified as a former resident by definition and qualify for a retirement pension ( assets / income etc ) then you will be able to receive it - however, I you want to leave Aust for any reason within 2 years of being granted the pension the pension will stop and you need to re-apply again. This was my situation and my arguement with centrelink was that I felt it unfair that the penion should stop if I wanted to return to Thailand with my wife to visit her parents for 2 wk or so once a years etc, I was happy to have the pension suspended while out of the country - there is no provision for this - so its all or nothing and the 2 year perod starts over each time you leave. But luckily and being insistent I was able to be re-classified from a former resident to a resident which over came the problem of being able to come and go as I liked which was the aim of protesting the intitial classification.

[fishhooks]

Hi Artisi:

Are you saying that if one is a good boy, has done the appropriate number of years service in the work-force, are in Australia and at 65 are granted a pension based on assets and income, then must one serve 2 years further on these shores before being able to retire overseas maintaining said pension?

Perhaps put more simply (if theses matters can be), is it so that one really can't retire overseas until the age of 67 if he wants to hang on to the pension!

Am I understanding what you are saying about this 2 year requirement?

In my reading of the situation at this time, it seems you are judged very harshly if you spend longish times out of Australia just prior to reaching 65 and need to protest as you did.

Do they not accept that if someone wants to spend their retirement years overseas, that it is reasonable and normal to spend time in whatever country to get organized whether prior to or just after 65!

[fishhooks]

Artisi, couple of questions if I may:

I take it with your dealings with Centrelink, you may have been asked for certain details of your periods out of Australia.

Did you need to or were asked for Passport information to back up your claim of short visits only?

Did you get any idea of in the initial stages, why you were classified as a "Former Resident", thus what impression did you get that they thought was an unreasonable time to be out of Australia?

I'm a bit puzzled where you mention above "you intended to return to Aust. at some stage permanently"

Does this mean that one should always leave Centrelink with the impression that you intend to return and 'not' actually retire overseas!

[ozzydom]

Centrelink has direct computer link to Immigration,your movements in and out of Oz are right there in front of them, computers dont work on hypotheticals .

Also the requirement is to be a resident of Oz for 25 years, there is no requirement that you had to be employed or even pay taxes for that period.

The legislation as I see it (and how it was applied in my own case) is that firstly to receive a full pension you need the 25 yrs residency from when you came of working age and to be in Oz and be classed as an Australian resident when you attain 65yrs and apply for said pension.

If you just turn up after having lived outside Oz for X years you can be classed as a non resident and come under the two year qualifying rule.

That rule is there for precisely that reason ,to stop people turning up on the Centrelink doorstep ,claim the aged pension ,then jumping on the first plain out of Oz.

If you are resident in Oz for the two years prior to making your claim, you can after receiving your pension apply to live in another country,or conversely if you remain in Oz for two years continuously after gaining the pension ,same result.

[fishhooks]

Thanks ozzydom and well put.

I'm not in any way complaining about the system with regard to being classed as a Former Resident or Resident, infact I reckon it's fair.

My questions and I feel the main benefit of this thread is to know just what is okay and 'not' okay in Centrelink's eyes to qualify as a resident as far as time out of Australia is concerned, particularly leading up to one applying.

As Artisi found, the first officer who reviewed his case, was not impressed with his circumstance and he had to go further along the chain of command to get satisfaction.

Not that that's a problem and I would be happy to go that route also. But, as I'm sure he found, it was a frustrating and unnecessary waste of time and effort, proving that there is no rule of thumb.

Fine that he got there in the end, as has the other few on this thread who can now come and go as they please.

That though leaves those of us who are in the future to apply and are looking for info as to what and what not to do.

Everyone's circumstances are different, but given the good oil, some will be able to plan their movements now, to make everything fall into place more easily when the time comes.

Let's face it, I'm sure most of us are not trying to be dishonest or bend the rules, but just want to reasonably know what the score is.

I'm married to a Thai and at present come and go between our country's with my wife, but I've still no idea what is a reasonable time to spend in Thailand to be not classed as a Former resident. Nothing I've read so-far gives me any clue about this! But in my own eye's I know and feel that I'm without doubt, a Resident of Australia, no matter what time I spend in the LOS and I well qualify in terms of years spent here as a resident, like 40+ years after reaching working age.

As I stated in my previous post, I'm also curious as to why you need to give them the understanding that you will mainly be resident here after the granting of a pension. Does not the qualification to get it in the first instance be the deciding and relevant factor?

We have reciprocal rights with a number of countries for Centrelink purposes and more coming soon. It appears though that Thailand is not included and does that mean that they are not happy to pay us an on-going pension if we do not choose to live in one on their preferred list.

I repeat that I'm not trying to buck the system, but I am sure that we are not fully informed about these matters.

If it was a Taxation matter, I'm sure you'd be given a full and frank decision about your query pretty quick smart.

Re the computer matching, I'm well aware of what the score is there, but my question centered on whether Artisi was given a chance to discuss his movements or whether he assumed that they knew anyway and in the first instance was not given a chance to discuss this point with them.

[Artisi]

Lets see if I can put it in order as to my own case. I left Australia in May 2001 and returned to Aust 23Dec 2006.

As I was out of Aust for just over 5 years I was classified as a "Former Resident" and was therefore granted an aged pension - asset / income reviewed etc and also came under the No Portability clause meaning if I left the country within 2 years of pension grant date it was more than likely (this is also subject to some review and I did get a couple of conflicting statements) that my pension would cease while out of the country and would require me to re-apply once I returned. I wasn't prepared to try the "maybe you will loose your pension" so protested the decision in writing to the local centrelink office. I recieved a reply to this reconfirming the statement given at the time I applied for the pension. I wrote back after reviewing the social security act thinking that maybe I had a chance of a change of the ruling as a few of the rules in the act seemed to apply to the point I was trying to make. Before I had a reply to this letter I had to visit centrelink to make a change to my assets and also took the opportunity to raise the matter with the staff making the changes to my records, The girl making the changes looked at the copy letters I had and the replies as well as checking my records - she then asked if I would like to make a formal request for a review to which of course I said yes. She then interveiwed me and typed all the information into the computor and put it into the system and advised that I would have an answer within 28 days as per the rules.

My claim to be classified as a resident was based on the following, I had left the country on an extended holiday with the intention of returning to Aust. at some stage and had stayed longer than anticipated as I had married while o/seas, I still had real estate in Aust, was putting in a tax return each year, had private health insurance (on hold), and current bank accounts, I had returned to Aust. at least once every year and 4 times in the previous year for weddings and a funeral. I didn't own any real estate o/seas, didn't have permanent residency in any other country and had returned at that point for an indefinite period. After approx 20 days I had a phone call from the case officer asking a few questions of clarification - 2 days later she phone to say that my application was successful and that I was no longer a "Former Resident" and therefore the portabiltiy clause no longer applied to me.

Just a couple of extra points;

The interviewing staff have a general statement / rule / guide as to what is and what isn't a resident and doesn't really consider the case by case applicants such as myself.

At all times the staff were very efficient and took time to listen to my side of the story and in a couple of instances asked senior staff for clarification, they always explain why they had made the decision etc.

So resident / former resident is a bit of a grey area - but as I said in previous post, if you have cut your ties with Aust for a few years there is little chance of being classified as a resident and if in fact you do qualify by the rules for a pension "former resident" you will be under the portability clause which means you need to stay for at least 2 years before you can leave the country (for any reason) without your pension being cancelled.

Regarding centrelink and immigration - I believe that they do not cross check as a normal course of events but guess they can check if they really need to. Any one on a pension has to advise centrelink if they are going to leave the country for any period as well as advising them of an expected return day - they seem to rely on honesty in this matter - but I maybe wrong.

trust this makes it a bit clearer.

[ozzydom]

fishhooks,

I get the feeling through phone calls to Centrelink International that the officers have a certain amount of discretionary leeway in their decisions.

The 2 year residency in Oz either before or immediately after being granted the OAP is I think pretty much set in concrete.

The difference is that the old 3 month rule does not seem to apply if you are resident for the two years prior to claiming, once you are granted the pension as having resided in Oz for the two years prior then you can apply for international recipient status and go live where you like.

BUT, if you just rock in from T,land 2 days before your 65th birthday and go claim the OAP ,then you will have to do the 2 years consecutive after that time before you can claim international status and receive the pension overseas.

If you go back overseas in the latter case ,as soon as you have been absent from Oz for 3 months ,your pension stops and you have to return to Oz to re-apply.

There is no good thinking that you might fall through the gaps in the floor ,as if you are on the requirement to reside consecutively in OZ for the two years after receipt of the pension,you will be placed in that group with an alarm.

The alarm is simply that the program is automatically notified by Immigration as soon as you leave OZ and if you dont return within the 90 days your pension is stopped automatically.

The system has been used in Centrelink,Taxation and various other Government bodies for ages.

I think to ease your mind and enable you to plan your future movements ,it would be prudent to ring Centrelink International in Hobart,tell them your circumstances and use their advise in how best to make sure your eligable (sp) when your time comes.

I have PM you the Hobart office phone number, they are nearly all native Tasmanians that work there so they are OK people.

[fishhooks]

Very clear and much appreciated by me and I'm sure all others who are wondering if they will be able to come and go as one please's.

In my case, I will never be leaving here for more than a few months at a time.

Thanks and cheers, Artisi & ozzydom.

[fishhooks]

Quite an interesting article in yesterday's Melbourne Herald Sun (25 August) re a 54 year old guy on a Disability Support Pension, living in Thailand and having to return to Australia every 13 weeks for his pension to continue.

I may try to attach the article here later, but have often had trouble trying to post attachments on TV, even reduced in size to around 100K!

[fishhooks]

Here goes

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Bloody ridiculous.

[GungaDin]

Here goes

Thanks for posting that Fishhooks.

I'd like to buy Foster a beer.

Does anyone here know Alan?

[Artisi]

Here goes

In all fairness to both sides, it would be nice to have all detail from both parties not just a newsclipping sensationalising one side of the story.

If Allan is being badly or unfairly treated by the "government" then it should be rectified, if he is in the wrong then he is in the wrong - end of story unless of course you need to fill print space. What's the old cliche - "never let the truth get in the way of a good story"

[samuibeachcomber]

returning to the original post re aussie pensions paid in thailand,it does seem unfair to me to penalise people who may have moved overseas before reaching the retirement of 65.To have to go back to live in OZ for 2 years before retirement age or for 2 years after appling for the OAP seems to very beauracratic to the extreme.As some one else said in this thread,by living overseas we make no extra claim (other than the pension) on the govt. e.g.bus and train pass concessions,no burden on the health system.So in my humble opinion the govt. is being petty.

Maybe one of the problems with pension allocated funds in australia is that it comes out of general tax revenue,unlike in the UK Where it comes out of national insurance payments(being a % paye tax)I believe UK pensions can be paid anywhere the recipient lives,unlike australia.Sometimes makes me wish i'd never left the UK to go and live in Australia.

[fishhooks]

Artisi:

I think both sides are quite well represented in the article itself, thus the Court handed down their response with due regard to what the actual law is and that is that.

I placed the article here just to make readers aware of just what circumstances can apply with regard to pensions in general, and as this was an issue dealing with Disability Pensions, which have been mentioned in this thread as well as the OAP.

Don't concern about any information posted here, some will benefit with tips here and there, others to whom it doesn't concern will just pass it by.

I guess I can speak for those of us who are yet to qualify with whatever pension we believe we have a right to and say we are probably a tad jealous of those who are "lucky enough to come and go as they please!"

[david96]

Aust.TV members should read this website, submissions can be sent by e-mail or formal letter.

http://www.fahcsia.gov.au/internet/facsint...sion_review.htm

[fishhooks]

Good advice David, I guess if nobody ever puts pen to paper on issues which they feel are really valid and fair, nothing will ever change!

[Woofer]

I don't turn 65 for another couple of years but when I do, I was under the impression that I could claim the Australian Aged Pension while continuing to reside in Thailand.

Having paid massive amounts in Australian income tax and every other tax they can think of for my entire working life, I figured I could look forward to living reasonably well on our Aged Pension in Thailand. Problem is, according to one source, I might not be able to claim the pension if I am not living in Australia. Another says it will cut-out after 26 weeks if I am away from Oz.

Tried to get info from the so called "Seniors" Link through the Aust. Gvt. website. No USE!!

Would greatly appreciate ANY and ALL info you can offer.

Cheers,

VOICEOVER.

I have lived outside Australia for 16 years. I had my accountant check out if I could receive an old age pension. He told me that you had to live in Australia to receive it, but you could be out of the country for 13 weeks in any given year.

[Mason45]

What would happen if a person returned to Australia on their 65th birthday and applied for the OAP after spending say 10 years out of the country and they got refused because they were classed as non residents. This same person had no income at all, would Centrelink come to the fore to help them out or would this person have to resort to begging.

[Mason45]

This Centrelink residential rule was brought about by many Europeans who migrated to Australia in the 50's and 60's and on retirement from work returned to their country of origin and in many case were receiving two pensions monthly. It's rather ironic that the Greek community were the main abusers of the Australian pension system and now on October 1 next month Australia and Greece will have a reciprocal agreeement but us Aussies who wish to live in the country of our choice where there's no such agreement are left out in the lurch once again. It's the same old story Australia....the lucky country, that is you if you wern't born there.

[roskruge]

What would happen if a person returned to Australia on their 65th birthday and applied for the OAP after spending say 10 years out of the country and they got refused because they were classed as non residents. This same person had no income at all, would Centrelink come to the fore to help them out or would this person have to resort to begging.

You probably would not get the age pension, but you would qualify for what they call "Special benefit" as you would not qualify for the Unemployment Benefit. Until you meet the time requirement of the age pension. although you would not yet qualify for the perks associated with the age pension. This is providing you are an Australian citizen, and not an immigrant who never took out Australian citizenship.

[Artisi]

What would happen if a person returned to Australia on their 65th birthday and applied for the OAP after spending say 10 years out of the country and they got refused because they were classed as non residents. This same person had no income at all, would Centrelink come to the fore to help them out or would this person have to resort to begging.

You probably would not get the age pension, but you would qualify for what they call "Special benefit" as you would not qualify for the Unemployment Benefit. Until you meet the time requirement of the age pension. although you would not yet qualify for the perks associated with the age pension. This is providing you are an Australian citizen, and not an immigrant who never took out Australian citizenship.

If you are an Aussie by birth and spent sufficient time in Aust. or a naturalised Aussie (time in Aust after becoming an Aussie applies) you would be treated as a former resident and subject to the portability rules and assessed under the income / assets test for the level of pension to be paid.

[phuketfan]

I may have missed it in other posts, but you will find that you need to live in Australia full time the 2 years prior to applying for Aged pension. There are exceptions for some already on other pension types.

But the 2 year rule should not be overlooked.

It is not necessary to have worked & paid taxes to claim age pension, a full time mother & housewife may never have worked, but lived in Australia for the Qualifying period whether born in or emigrated to Australia.

hope this helps

[egg]

Quite an interesting article in yesterday's Melbourne Herald Sun (25 August) re a 54 year old guy on a Disability Support Pension, living in Thailand and having to return to Australia every 13 weeks for his pension to continue.

I may try to attach the article here later, but have often had trouble trying to post attachments on TV, even reduced in size to around 100K!

Hi

l am 57 and WAS the recipient of a disability support pension ,, l have been living here for 3 years ,,, was told when l moved here that l have to report to centrelink every 13 weeks( they said using the rules to my advantage ) 15 months ago my pension was cancelled due to me not living in Aus or not deemed to be an Aus resident ( the appeal process is on going ).

l have in my hand a letter from an authorised review officer that says , in part,, quote " it is a basic qualification or claim requirement for almost all pensions,allowances and benefits that a person must be an Australian resident (section7(2) of the SAA1991 ) . Residence requirements differ from payment to payment.

For the definitions of Australian resident to be satisfied,Section 7 of the Social Security Act 19191 requires a person to:

. have legal permanent resident status, unless they claim under an International Agreement with another country( or satisfy payment specific exceptions e.g. Special Benefit ), and

. be residng in Australia , unless under an International agreement with another country.

Legal permanent resident is satisfied by :

. Australian citizenship ( as a result of being born in Australia )

. being naturalised after coming to Australia

. being a citizen by descent ),

To be an Australian resident, a person must ; reside in Australia , AND be ONE of the following : an Australian citizen, OR the holder of a permanent visa , OR a Special CategoryVisa holder who is a protected Special Category Visa holder. unquote ,,, and it goes on ,, and on

l hope someone can understand that crap and that it is of some use

cheers

egg

[GungaDin]

Aussie pension rules appear to be as clear as Thai immigration rules.

If there was a comp for the clearer rules, I think Thai Immi would win.

[ozzydom]

An update on having your Oz pension paid into a Thai bank A/c..

Thailand banks do not have a liability contract with any country other than the USA so it is a bit of chore.

Centrelink have overcome this by routing pension payments through a London financial transfer system. So as long as your Thai bank A/C is with a recognised major bank who is able to receive electronic transfers it can be done.

All I did was provide my details and a/c details ,centrelink filled in the blank bits like Bangkok Banks BIC ( Bank Identifier Code ) and it was done.

Centrelink pays all transfer fees and your pension is paid in Thai currency at the prevailing exchange rate at the time of payment.

The only other change is that your pension is paid monthly instead of fortnightly.

Cenrelink International Services has a team in their Hobart headquarters specializing in expat pension recipients residing in Thailand.

[ozzydom]

Egg, While a person is receiving disability pension you are subject to the rules as you state ,but it appears as was done in my case anyway,that at some point (after many medical reviews ) that you become classified as a permanently disabled recipient ( in other words they decide that there is no hope of you ever getting back into the workforce ) and they dont then enforce those same rules.

After about 5 years on disability I was sent for a series of examinations by Govt medicos and private orthopedic surgeons who evidently decided I was a basket case ,so I never heard from DSS as it was then ,again.

I came to T,land after that and lived here continuously for 5 years before being changed to OAP 4 years ago. They knew that I lived here so whether they gave up on me or I fell through the systems cracks ,I dont know..

[egg]

Egg, While a person is receiving disability pension you are subject to the rules as you state ,but it appears as was done in my case anyway,that at some point (after many medical reviews ) that you become classified as a permanently disabled recipient ( in other words they decide that there is no hope of you ever getting back into the workforce ) and they dont then enforce those same rules.

After about 5 years on disability I was sent for a series of examinations by Govt medicos and private orthopedic surgeons who evidently decided I was a basket case ,so I never heard from DSS as it was then ,again.

I came to T,land after that and lived here continuously for 5 years before being changed to OAP 4 years ago. They knew that I lived here so whether they gave up on me or I fell through the systems cracks ,I dont know..

Hi Dom ,,, thanks for that ,,,,l was granted the pension in late 2001 , and was told then that l was permantly disabled (my problems will not improve , only getting worse ) ,,,,, up until late 2006 l never heard from C/link ,,,,, then it all hit the fan in the middle of 2007,,l thought at the time l could survive without it , but , wrong again ,,, l think the big mistake was telling them l was leaving the country in the first place ,,,, anyway all that is past time ,,,, now l have to go through all the appeal processes ,,, which more or less means l will have to go back to Aus and go through the doctors , specialists , etc all over again ,,, ,,,,,, now that C/link is in private hands , things have tightened up considerably ,,,,,,,,, the good news is that "where there is life there is hope " all be it ,faint ,,,, l will soldier on

cheers

egg

[ozzydom]

Best of luck with your appeal mate, one thing I found is that centrelink seem to have more of a humane approach nowadays, the staff dont seem to approach things with the beaurocratic air that they used to.

[fishhooks]

ozzydom:

Thanks for the update on the transfer system ex Centrelink.

I do have a long held thought however that the more banking hands that any of these process's go through, that the cash into your hand at the other end suffers somewhat.

With all taken into account, even though Centrelink are apparently paying some of the fee, it would be interesting to see what 1AUD ends up into Baht as you withdraw it at the Thai Bank. Of course this changes regularly, so one would need to compare from time to time.

I think at Friday's close in Thailand, the SCB Telegraphic Transfer rate was 27.9, down quite a bit on the 33 a few weeks back. Might seem nit-picking over a few Baht here or there, but over a year can make a significant difference to what one ends up with!

I remember when last year I was investigating transfer methods out of Australia, a good friend who is a Commonwealth Bank Manager showed me the difference in the Comm Bank converting AUD to THB at the Australian end versus letting the funds exit Australia in AUD and leaving the conversion to be done at the Thai Bank end.

The difference was absolutely amazing in favour of letting the Thai bank (SCB) do the conversion at their end.

I also reckon, even if basically living in Thailand, keeping a bank account alive in Australia. This may also help (a little) with those of us that seem to be having difficulty with these Residency rules which as someone posted above seem to be getting more strict with Centrelink of late.

I think even if the rules do not change in print, living overseas and getting an "A" Pension is going to become increasingly difficult.

It seems if you get a "good ear" at Centrelink's office in Hobart at present, you have a good show, but how quickly things like this change!