Australian Aged Pension

[moojar]

12 hours ago, giddyup said:

I think the portability is what's being discussed here, that's why I mentioned the 2 year rule.

Agreed.  It was the "My application was rejected on the grounds you need to have lived in Australia for 10years" that threw me.  I thought at first he was referring to the recent change:

Quote

To get Age Pension you need to have been an Australian resident for at least 10 years in total. For at least 5 of these years, there must be no break in your residence.

https://www.humanservices.gov.au/individuals/services/centrelink/age-pension/eligibility-payment-rates/residence-rules

 

That 'no break in your residence' seems like one of those phrases that lawyers could argue about for hours.  

 

But no, the OP was referring to having been out of Oz for 10 years.  He could get the OAP immediately if he returned to stay, as we know. 

 

I do have sympathy though re other expats - theirs is a 'pension' whereas ours is treated as 'welfare'.  Seems like a "mean and tricky" distinction, brought about by too many tabloid newspaper / current affairs TV show exposés.   

[moojar]

^ You know, the situation the OP described is one of the reasons getting the OAP is becoming more difficult.  People taking early retirement - like the OP and a lot of us here - and living off their Super, then fronting up for an OAP when they reach "retirement age".  

 

Compulsory Superannuation was meant to take the pressure off the OAP, not allow us to retire early.  So they are beating us around the head for being too clever.  

 

The Super 'preservation age' is currently being incrementally increased from 55 to 60 depending on you DOB.  You can bet that that will be further increased in the future.

https://www.ato.gov.au/Individuals/Super/Accessing-your-super/

 

  

[Ban Phe Dezza]

15 minutes ago, moojar said:

Agreed.  It was the "My application was rejected on the grounds you need to have lived in Australia for 10years" that threw me.  I thought at first he was referring to the recent change:

https://www.humanservices.gov.au/individuals/services/centrelink/age-pension/eligibility-payment-rates/residence-rules

 

That 'no break in your residence' seems like one of those phrases that lawyers could argue about for hours.  

 

But no, the OP was referring to having been out of Oz for 10 years.  He could get the OAP immediately if he returned to stay, as we know. 

 

I do have sympathy though re other expats - theirs is a 'pension' whereas ours is treated as 'welfare'.  Seems like a "mean and tricky" distinction, brought about by too many tabloid newspaper / current affairs TV show exposés.   

A Quirk no one has mentioned at least to my Knowledge.  Is that Prior to 2004 if you took the disability Pension  overseas and remained basically overseas you were and perhaps still  are transferred direct to OAP  with out any issues. Before i get shot down in flames I was covered under this act coming here in 2000, plus others I know have been in the same situation 

[sceadugenga]

Those with DSP portability or who have been grandfathered under earlier legislation can transfer to the OAP without returning to Australia.

[4MyEgo]

On 5/30/2018 at 9:15 AM, moojar said:

It is Labor planning to remove another overly-generous Howard gift that will hurt more IMO - reduction in the Capital Gains Tax (CGT) discount on investment properties.  That and the removal of negative gearing on property.  They say they will "grandfather" existing investors, but it is still going to impact property prices for those that have investment property/s as their "retirement nest egg".

I believe that any Australian Citizen, who has been deemed a "foreign resident" would want to make sure they longer hold property in Australia as the tax 32.5c, plus CGT is just not worth it, but I am assuming you meant "retirement nest egg" for Australian residents, who get the $18,200 tax free threshold, whereas foreign residents don't, regardless if they are Australian Citizens or not.

[moojar]

^ Yes, resident.  Sell upon retirement scenario. 

 

No way I would hold on to an investment property once I am ATO non-resident.  As you say, minimum 32.5% tax right off the bat.  A resident with a taxable income of $20K would pay sweet FA in tax, a few hundred perhaps.  A non-resident would pay close to $7000.  And then be denied an OAP when the time comes due to his non-residence.  Bugger that for a joke. 

[4MyEgo]

4 minutes ago, moojar said:

^ Yes, resident.  Sell upon retirement scenario. 

 

No way I would hold on to an investment property once I am ATO non-resident.  As you say, minimum 32.5% tax right off the bat.  A resident with a taxable income of $20K would pay sweet FA in tax, a few hundred perhaps.  A non-resident would pay close to $7000.  And then be denied an OAP when the time comes due to his non-residence.  Bugger that for a joke. 

Thx for clearing that up, totally agree.

 

What I find totally out of wack here is, if you own your principal place of residency in Australia, then move overseas and become a non resident, they are forcing you to sell by removing the tax free threshold of $18,200, like you said 32.5c flat off the bat, they still get CGT on the sale, so that's no different, then they hit you with an annual foreign resident land tax which is a stinger.

 

If these guys who make these rules up allowed for its citizens to move overseas without being penalised, i.e. removing the foreign resident residential land tax, and reinstating the tax threshold of $18,200 they would be receiving income tax annually after the threshold, plus the usual CGT once the property is sold, any increase in value on the property creates a higher value when the CGT is applied, so by forcing the "foreign resident" who is an Australian Citizen to sell up, is a loss to the government, like I said, it doesn't make sense, whether its a couple of hundred dollars or a couple of thousand dollars annually, its still cream that they wouldn't have had.

 

Looking at it another way, one moves overseas, sells up, 10 years later has spend his money, comes back and has nothing, then what, does that person become a burden to society once he received his OAP, does he live a comfortable life after paying rent, remember he was forced to sell up because of all these taxes.

 

We all know the government has got it wrong with regard to the way it treats its Australian Citizens, whether in Australia or overseas, they are taxed to the hilt, that said, fortunately for those who have money and are prepared to invest it in the Australian Stock Market and earn an income, there is no capital gains tax on stocks purchased and sold, and no tax on franked dividends, however there is always a risk in shares, but if they are blue chip, paying a good return of between 5.5% & 7% you can live a comfortable life in Thailand, remember, the rule is to never sell, unless they are on the up up up.

 

As for the OAP, well shift the money 5 years prior, go back 2 years prior and put out your hand and do your 2 year term, and when they let you out, runnnnnnnnn back to Thailand 

[totally thaied up]

1 hour ago, sceadugenga said:

Those with DSP portability or who have been grandfathered under earlier legislation can transfer to the OAP without returning to Australia.

Yes, that is correct. At 65  will be transferred to the OAP I have been advised or my choice to stay where I am. I think it depends on the period of change (like the big changes in 2009, 2012 and 2015)

[Nemises]

 
As for the OAP, well shift the money 5 years prior, go back 2 years prior and put out your hand and do your 2 year term, and when they let you out, runnnnnnnnn back to Thailand 

Yep, CLEARLY the way to go!

[David Walden]

On 5/30/2018 at 8:40 AM, Gregster said:

Speaking of Noel Whittaker..here is a 2GB podcast link from a few weeks back in which he talks about giving/loaning/gifting cash to your children in order to meet the assets test to qualify for the OAP.

 

 

Roll the tape forward to 00:12:10

 

Noel’s segment lasts about 7 minutes.

 

 

https://16633.mc.tritondigital.com/GEORGE_AND_PAUL_P/media-session/b0b1477d-2f33-49c0-a5e4-df15c42e6259/d/clips/88b564ea-a9a6-4751-910a-a5d800019396/212b76cd-6901-42e3-aa87-a6820041d565/4c1715f0-45d1-4f8f-b8ab-a8d700398c4e/audio/direct/t1525491229/George_and_Paul_Full_Show_Podcast_05_05_2018.mp3?t=1525491229

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've given up after trying to roll the tape forward for half an hour.  Of course Noel Whittaker in the highly profitable business of giving investment advice to novices.

[Nemises]

I can’t stop thinking of this song after reading the comment above re “runnnnnnn to Thailand (Paradise)”

 

 

 

https://g.co/kgs/cNU9aQ

 

 

Baby, you were always gonna be the one

You only ever did it just for fun

But you run to paradise

Jenny, I'll meet you at the grocery store

You don't need a friend when you can score

You run to paradise

Johnny, we were always best of friends

Stick together and defend

But you run to paradise

And mamma, now don't you worry 'bout me anymore

And I see you crying at the door

When I run to paradise

That's right, they had it all worked out

You were young and blonde

And you could never do wrong

That's right, they were so surprised

 

 

Run to paradise

Run to paradise

Run to paradise

 

 

[Nemises]

I've given up after trying to roll the tape forward for half an hour.  Of course Noel Whittaker in the highly profitable business of giving investment advice to novices.

Rather than criticising Noel Whittaker and telling us of your technology inabilities, maybe you could find someone to help you play the podcast then advise the forum exactly what part of Noel’s advice you disagree, and why....

 

[sceadugenga]

The Turnbull government has hoovered up more than $2 billion in inactive superannuation accounts  and claimed the revenue as its own, saying it does not trust the superannuation industry to reunite the accounts of millions of Australian workers.

 

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/turnbull-government-uses-millions-of-super-accounts-to-boost-budget-20180531-p4zilv.html

[David Walden]

5 hours ago, Gregster said:

Rather than criticising Noel Whittaker and telling us of your technology inabilities, maybe you could find someone to help you play the podcast then advise the forum exactly what part of Noel’s advice you disagree, and why....

 

I have several of Noels books ( they date very quickly) and have frequently written to him about the 83% of pensioners who are part self funded or have no savings at all, he has never replied.  There is a lot of useful advice available particularly in relation to Centrelink he will not get into.  I try to engage people to discuss these but it is a never ending story which could be given to part self funded retirees about how to get the best out small amounts of i.e. super, work bonus for pensioners, thresholds, driving a school bus whilst getting the pension and tax matters, tax offsets for retirees over 65 y/o.  It goes on and on.

   These smaller transactions don't provide very much commission to big investment advisers, bigger fish is what Noel is all about as are many, he is part of a very successful investment advice business,  And for that matter so are the other 50,000 or so pension investment advisers in Australia who rely on OPM (other peoples money) to make a living often giving dubious advice as to what to do with their money, including banks, life companies, investment house, loan sharks etc. etc.  The present Bank Royal Commission in Aus is aghast at what rip offs that have been going on.  My wife recently had to be refunded $12,000 at the direction of AAAC because her bank manged super fund had overcharged her commission over the last 5 years, she has only banked with that bank all her life ( she had no Idea what had happened).  That bank managed super fund also had repay for overcharging commission to more then 200,000 other  customers and it's still happening.  There could be as many as 10 million a/cs where overcharging has occurred with pension funds in Australia and most likely more world wide.  There is not much point in changing funds because of the rip offs as she would loose the grandfathering effect of her present fund if she transferred and have to pay the 15% tax  by stealth that the Govt promise it would never do (both sides).  Perhaps better to stay with the devil you know?

     I have not seen Noel give at advice to pensioner small asset owners on how to get the best return from Centrelink and until recently I have read his column in the Sunday Times in W.A for about 30 years every Sunday.  Most of his advice is very good for your totally self funded retirees and wealthy people ...that is where the big bucks are...good luck to him.  I am not bagging Noel but his advice is hardly relevant to these mostly Australian Pensioners on this site looking to live overseas and some comfort with what they get.

   There are about 250 pages on this ThaiVisa site from thousands of Australians wanting advice on the best way to retiree over seas and make the change, especially to Thailand.  Your reference to Noel Whittaker I believe is about the 1st time his name has ever been mentioned here...I haven't read all the 250 pages, and the 20 so posts on each page (=about 5000 posts) so if his name has come up I stand corrected...I do like Noel and have missed his column in the Sunday times "I'm just a poor Aussie Pensioner".  I've lived much of my time in Thailand.  Noels column is not available to me,  Perth Sunday Times is not available in Thailand.

   PS...I only comment matters which I've had personal experience with so "Sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me". 

 

Edited June 1, 2018 by David Walden

[sceadugenga]

You can subscribe online, I think it comes with the PerthNow service.

Probably about $25 a month.

 

https://www.perthnow.com.au/

 

This is not really OAP stuff anyway, so back on track please.

[ELVIS123456]

4 hours ago, sceadugenga said:

The Turnbull government has hoovered up more than $2 billion in inactive superannuation accounts  and claimed the revenue as its own, saying it does not trust the superannuation industry to reunite the accounts of millions of Australian workers.

 

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/turnbull-government-uses-millions-of-super-accounts-to-boost-budget-20180531-p4zilv.html

Thanks sceadugenga, you have reminded me of a Super issue I forgot to tell everyone about.  Not directly related to OAP, but as most people will be getting the OAP and topping it up with Super, then it is indirectly related.

 

I worked for many companies, sometimes for only 2 years, and sometime for 5-10 years.  As with most people I did lose track of my Super funds, as some companies used to mandate what Super Fund you could use - now you can select yoiur favourite.  Anyway, at one point I contacted my main Super Fund and asked them to search and find any Super I had with any other Fund and transfer it into their Fund - which they did.  The some years ago I got an email suggesting I do it again - which I did, and they found nothing.  

 

Then a few years ago I noticed that the ATO has a service where they will search for any Funds that are holding money under your tax file number - so I asked themn to search for me.  And bugger me - they found a Fund from a company I worked for in the early 2000s and it was a nice little sum of money.  The moral of the story is get the ATO to search for you - they can clearlky find more using your TFN, than what other Super Funds can find using thjeir system/method.

 

 

[David Walden]

On 5/31/2018 at 9:20 AM, sceadugenga said:

Those with DSP portability or who have been grandfathered under earlier legislation can transfer to the OAP without returning to Australia.

Not many with DSP portability now.  It all stopped about 1/01/2013.  But if you have lived long time in Thailand on DSP there is a AAT precedent set that will help you if you can't make it back to Aus through hardship or likely marriage failure.  Hmmmm.

[sceadugenga]

According to The Australian there were 6,500 living overseas in 2016.

 

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/federal-election-2016-800m-cost-of-offshore-pensioners/news-story/fb9a0fae67c217c3420e41d6f23a5830

[David Walden]

1 hour ago, sceadugenga said:

According to The Australian there were 6,500 living overseas in 2016.

 

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/federal-election-2016-800m-cost-of-offshore-pensioners/news-story/fb9a0fae67c217c3420e41d6f23a5830

Do you think you may have left the  ("0") off    https://www.smh.com.au/national/struggling-pensioners-opt-to-leave-australia-for-a-cheaper-country-20140607-39pui.html

[Nemises]

According to The Australian there were 6,500 living overseas in 2016.
 
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/federal-election-2016-800m-cost-of-offshore-pensioners/news-story/fb9a0fae67c217c3420e41d6f23a5830

sceadugenga, the link won’t open for non-subscribers. Any chance you can copy and paste the article?

[sceadugenga]

28 minutes ago, David Walden said:

Do you think you may have left the  ("0") off    https://www.smh.com.au/national/struggling-pensioners-opt-to-leave-australia-for-a-cheaper-country-20140607-39pui.html

That's total, you brought up DSP.

 

" Not many with DSP portability now".

[sceadugenga]

11 minutes ago, Gregster said:

 

 

sceadugenga, the link won’t open for non-subscribers. Any chance you can copy and paste the article?

 

 

Won't open for me now either, try a different browser.

[4MyEgo]

1 hour ago, Gregster said:

 

 

sceadugenga, the link won’t open for non-subscribers. Any chance you can copy and paste the article?

 

 

Struggling pensioners opt to leave Australia for a cheaper country

By Cosima Marriner

8 June 2014 — 3:00am

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Age pensioners are moving overseas where they can live more cheaply, as the pension fails to keep pace with the cost of living and their superannuation proves inadequate.

As the federal government moves to extend the retirement age to 70, government data shows there was a 30 per cent increase in the number of people claiming the Australian age pension living overseas between 2007 and 2012.

 

The numbers: where Australian pensioners are living overseas.

Photo: Fairfax

Over the same time, the total number of age pensioners grew only 17 per cent.

There are 2.3 million people receiving an age pension, a figure that is steadily climbing as the population ages. About 3 per cent of these pensioners live overseas.

 

 

Refugee: Roy Craney moved to Thailand.

Photo: Supplied

 

The government slashed $2.1 billion from pension spending in last month's budget.

The pension qualifying age will be lifted from 67 to 70 by 2035. And from 2017, pension rises will be pegged to the consumer price index, and the value of income test and assets test free areas will be fixed for three years.

Italy and Greece are the two most popular destinations for Australian pensioners relocating abroad. This reflects the ageing of the wave of southern European migrants who arrived in Australia after World War II.

University of South Australia researcher Peter Winwood said many people retiring now had inadequate funds to finance their lifestyle. The superannuation levy came in part-way through their working lives, and the current pension rate of 50 per cent of average weekly earnings was only slightly above the poverty line.

''People retiring now, or in the next two years, the baby boomers, are going to have inadequate finances,'' said Dr Winwood, who has researched how people plan to fund their retirement.

''If they are faced with the situation of being unable to fund their retirement in Australia, they might be tempted to go back to the old country where they have family and friends and they have better prospects for their future.''

People are often being forced out of the workforce earlier than they would like and before they have adequate retirement savings.

Roy Craney decided to move overseas when he struggled to find work in his chosen field of hospitality management once he reached 55. He cashed in his superannuation and moved to Thailand nine months ago. He hopes that the relatively cheap cost of living there will ensure his super lasts until he qualifies for the age pension at 67.

''I'm an economic refugee,'' Mr Craney said. ''I can have a more comfortable lifestyle here than I had back in Australia. I was going through my savings too quickly.''

Mr Craney, who lives in Udon Thani in north-east Thailand, believes more Australians will be forced to follow in his footsteps.

He said he had met at least 50 expats who had relocated to Thailand for the same reasons as him.

''It's an economic decision,'' Mr Craney said.

''They found they couldn't survive in their own countries on the money they had. It's a situation they didn't expect to find themselves in.''

Mr Craney believes the recent budget decision to raise the pension age to 70 will only make it harder for older workers unless the government does more to tackle aged-based workplace discrimination.

''If I can't get a job at 55 what is supposed to happen? Do they want me to sit on the dole until I turn 70?

''We're going to have a new generation of older dole bludgers and it's not by choice.''

 

4MyEgo: I will add one thing to this this news article, I hope Mr Craney realises that he will have to return to Oz and wait two years to receive his OAP, if he qualifies, hopefully, because I hear it all the time, shyt, I didn't know that, bugger !!!

[simple1]

3 hours ago, sceadugenga said:

According to The Australian there were 6,500 living overseas in 2016.

 

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/federal-election-2016-800m-cost-of-offshore-pensioners/news-story/fb9a0fae67c217c3420e41d6f23a5830

Cannot be correct. Age Pension living overseas in 2007 was 56,165. Some numbers by country in 2012...

 

https://www.smh.com.au/national/struggling-pensioners-opt-to-leave-australia-for-a-cheaper-country-20140607-39pui.html

Edited June 1, 2018 by simple1

[sceadugenga]

Yes, more than that, but that's the figures for DSP.

[simple1]

1 minute ago, sceadugenga said:

Yes, more than that, but that's the figures for DSP.

OK - misunderstood

Edited June 1, 2018 by simple1

[sceadugenga]

Federal election 2016: $800m cost of offshore pensioners

The number of Australians being paid pensions while living overseas has almost tripled in two ­decades, costing taxpayers nearly $800 million a year to maintain.

More than 81,000 age pensioners and 6500 disability support pensioners were living overseas in December, receiving all or part of their Australian pension,

(From The Australian article)

[totally thaied up]

3 hours ago, sceadugenga said:

That's total, you brought up DSP.

 

" Not many with DSP portability now".

From memory, there is between 5,800 to 6,500 with DSP portability (like myself) that are overseas. The figure will be dropping for certain as we all die off, as it is almost impossible to get on now. I cannot see this figure moving upwards ... ever (more likely downward).

 

Around 80,000 OAP  now overseas.

 

All I can see into the future for the OAP is this; time in the country need before applying going up. Instead of two years, it will move to three, then five years (in country) before you can claim for the OAP.

 

Just going to get harder for all

 

[ELVIS123456]

2 hours ago, sceadugenga said:

Federal election 2016: $800m cost of offshore pensioners
The number of Australians being paid pensions while living overseas has almost tripled in two ­decades, costing taxpayers nearly $800 million a year to maintain.
More than 81,000 age pensioners and 6500 disability support pensioners were living overseas in December, receiving all or part of their Australian pension,

(From The Australian article)

Isnt it lovely how they say: 'costing taxpayers nearly $800 million to maintain'.

What a bised ignorant statement - designed to inflame the views of prejudiced ignorant people.

If those 81.00 OAP and 6500 DSP were to return to Australia, it would cost a hell of a lot more to the taxpayers.

Atypical MSM media in all western countries - dont let the truth get in the way of a good story (one that fires up the base).

 

[BEVUP]

2 minutes ago, ELVIS123456 said:

Isnt it lovely how they say: 'costing taxpayers nearly $800 million to maintain'.

What a bised ignorant statement - designed to inflame the views of prejudiced ignorant people.

If those 81.00 OAP and 6500 DSP were to return to Australia, it would cost a hell of a lot more to the taxpayers.

Atypical MSM media in all western countries - dont let the truth get in the way of a good story (one that fires up the base).

 

Maybe a few of them wouldn't come back as they are probably being topped up from the Aussie side against their homeland pension