"band Together"... Strike Back

[Galong]

Someone just cut two more cables in the east its not totaly therir fault latey. If this keeps up they will be cutting faster then they can fix them. Some think its terroest but I bet it greenpeace. The cables upset the whales or something like that. totlal 7 cuts in the med.

Dude, you get my vote for the absolute silliest post on this thread... Greenpeace cutting cables?

Furthermore, we don't need to give terrorists more ideas on how they can adversely affect the world economy and commerce...

[dave_boo]

Hrm... I think you are barking up the wrong tree. Thailand has not enough bandwidth going out of the country. And that is entirely a political issue. The ISPs are just trying to live with it. Sure they are incompetent and annoying but in general, ISPs in the USA weren't any better. I spent many an hour on the phone with SBC in San Francisco - most of the time I had to wait though an hour of elevator music before I even got to speak to a live person! **

But it's beside the point. Bandwidth going outta Thailand is 22GBit/s, and most of it is going through other countries, Japan, Singapore etc. Thailand is going to get connected to a new fiber going straight to the U.S. end of 2008, and that's when things will improve. In the meantime, our connections are going to be crap.

If you want to change things, you can organize a "Drag Thailand into the modern age, kicking and screaming" interest group that lobbies to get more internet connections into the country and break up the CAT near-monopoly on the IIG, as well as remove the censorship which most certainly has a performance impact.

Both Japan and Korea got to where they are because of massive and concerted government efforts to wire the entire population at high speeds. It didn't just happen that they have 100Mbit at affordable prices, there was a lot of planning and a will to do it behind that. Especially Japan was pretty late to the internet party.

** It was really fun. The support-droid would follow a strict protocol asking me for the blinky lights, then my PC. Then they'd say it doesn't work with routers, only with their supplied PPPoE software on the PC. Eventually they'd ask me to "reinstall Windows and the PPPoE software". Total joke, as 100% of the time it was their own dam_n fault and things would work again in a few hours or a day. I never did it of course, but the nerve to ask me to waste half a day on a windows re-install just because they won't admit their lines are down... well... let's just say I never got that from a Thai ISP.

I've always been pleased with the non-wait on calling a Thai ISP. Not so pleased after the wait and realising they didn't know what the problem was.

[RKASA]

Someone just cut two more cables in the east its not totaly therir fault latey. If this keeps up they will be cutting faster then they can fix them. Some think its terroest but I bet it greenpeace. The cables upset the whales or something like that. totlal 7 cuts in the med.

Dude, you get my vote for the absolute silliest post on this thread... Greenpeace cutting cables?

Furthermore, we don't need to give terrorists more ideas on how they can adversely affect the world economy and commerce...

Its a joke, but they did say they are concerned that so many cut in a short time and have not issued a reason for it yet. and for the last week I agree there is a problem but, after early Dec the great connection I had (and I posted such here before) has been no more a great connection.  Even if I paid much more then some that have several Mb. I was happy with a working 256kb, but cable problems or not they have not been able to even do that for 1500 a month and that pretty bad.

[mark lamai]

quote

In Australia and New Zealand for example connections are capped at 2 or 3 gigs a month, cost around 2,500 baht and are not much faster than here. I'd take the Thai service over those any day.

end quote

er well i have a 1024/256 in aus, it costs approx 1120 baht a month, not to diff to maxnet here.

thats for 5gig download, much greater speeds are available.

in aus i actually get that speed from the outside world.

in another post i put my tests here from samui (maxnet 1024 adsl),

i am getting 100kbps (from outside thailand) and paying for 1024,

err that's one tenth of advertisedd speed!!!

about a month ago i downloaded a 50MB file in a cafe in pattaya, it took 3 hours!

that is simply unacceptable in a developed country like thailand.

the only reason this can happen is from lack of understanding, planning and competance.

i wonder what will wake them up,

reliable fast internet nowadays is equally as important as good highways for any country.

we all know the reasons, but cannot state them on this censored site.

[cali]

The ISP management must be laughing at most of you for coming up with lamest justifications for their greed and incompetence…laughing all the way to the bank with your money. I might not be 100%, but this is the way I see it:

1. ISP’s allocate the amount of bandwidth they wish, this number is not dictated by CAT. If an arbitrary ISP were to go to CAT and ask for more, CAT would be happy to provide it to them.

2. True internet as an example has publicly acknowledged it is providing less bandwidth per user than they used to. So how much has the price of their packages dropped? Let’s see….it hasn’t!!! The rest of the world is giving internet users more bandwidth, but in Thailand they have deliberately chosen to give you less and keep the prices fixed artificially high.

3. When cables break and performance suffers, do blame the ISP. It certainly is not the customers fault. And the customer pays the ISP 100% so it is solely up to the ISP to ensure a quality connection up the chain to people they are paying our money to. They know cables have and will continue to break. So in these cases that go for weeks each time, what do they do to add fault tolerance? They just play a recorded message blaming CAT! A quality company who could predict it could lose a portion its bandwidth now and again would have a plan for portion on standby to tap into. They need to stop blaming CAT and start working with them to make a system that works. They are the only ones with the leverage to do this.

4. A new cable to the US or deregulation is not going to be the answer to our prayers. Remember that the ISP’s here do not care how fast your international speed is. Just pick up the phone and ask them and they will tell you that. The business model here is to deliberately buy less bandwidth than their customers need. Since most of you simply dream up justifications in your little heads for this, why change?

5. “Pay more for a SME package”. Time and again I have read here that people with the more expensive packages also have problems. Even with SME packages they refuse to guarantee international bandwidth don’t they? That is not acceptable. If I pay a premium price, I would have premium expectations, not want some glorified home package.

6. Litigation? Maybe I am missing something, but if you print completely factual and pertinent information to the public what possible grounds would anyone have to sue you for? What I can see happening is a high up or two who is shielded from the customer views gets a nice wake up call and so does everyone at the company!

Thailand is an IT crisis. Internet connectivity is a joke, all types of computer hardware costs way more than other countries, and the model is to steal software. It’s just always been that way. I applaud anyone who cares enough to try to help them out of this. Kudos.

[dsys]

The ISP management must be laughing at most of you for coming up with lamest justifications for their greed and incompetence…laughing all the way to the bank with your money. I might not be 100%, but this is the way I see it:

1. ISP's allocate the amount of bandwidth they wish, this number is not dictated by CAT. If an arbitrary ISP were to go to CAT and ask for more, CAT would be happy to provide it to them.

You're bang on 100% correct in this - it's not dictated by CAT its dictated by the capacity of the international links.

Thailand just does not have enough international bandwidth.

One thing that I dont understand about this is argument:

If I have a fibre connection, lets say SDH rather than PDH, I want to increase the bandwidth on the fibre - what do I do, certainly not lay a new fibre, I swap out a card in the MUX and hey presto increased bandwidth - if i have maxed that out I use DWDM. If there are any CAT engineers out there - WHY THE hel_l are you not upgrading these existing links, looking at your fibre maps I see STM-1 STM-4 and STM-16 links BUY AN STM-32 CARD.

2. True internet as an example has publicly acknowledged it is providing less bandwidth per user than they used to. So how much has the price of their packages dropped? Let's see….it hasn't!!! The rest of the world is giving internet users more bandwidth, but in Thailand they have deliberately chosen to give you less and keep the prices fixed artificially high.

Not sure I am with you on this one

3. When cables break and performance suffers, do blame the ISP. It certainly is not the customers fault. And the customer pays the ISP 100% so it is solely up to the ISP to ensure a quality connection up the chain to people they are paying our money to. They know cables have and will continue to break. So in these cases that go for weeks each time, what do they do to add fault tolerance? They just play a recorded message blaming CAT! A quality company who could predict it could lose a portion its bandwidth now and again would have a plan for portion on standby to tap into. They need to stop blaming CAT and start working with them to make a system that works. They are the only ones with the leverage to do this.

Have to agree with you on this - the technology is there the network designs are there etc.

4. A new cable to the US or deregulation is not going to be the answer to our prayers. Remember that the ISP's here do not care how fast your international speed is. Just pick up the phone and ask them and they will tell you that. The business model here is to deliberately buy less bandwidth than their customers need. Since most of you simply dream up justifications in your little heads for this, why change?

deregulation - disagree here, watch the Japanese pile in if it deregulates. I'm sure a few enterprising farang have thought about it.

5. "Pay more for a SME package". Time and again I have read here that people with the more expensive packages also have problems. Even with SME packages they refuse to guarantee international bandwidth don't they? That is not acceptable. If I pay a premium price, I would have premium expectations, not want some glorified home package.

Dont agree with you on this at all - its the same here as it is anywhere else on the planet just higher contention ratios nobody intheir right mind will give a 5*9 contract for a couple of quid. You want a leased line there if you want 5*9. Same as in the UK or USA.

6. Litigation? Maybe I am missing something, but if you print completely factual and pertinent information to the public what possible grounds would anyone have to sue you for? What I can see happening is a high up or two who is shielded from the customer views gets a nice wake up call and so does everyone at the company!

Dont understand your point here are you suggesting litigation - on what grounds?

Thailand is an IT crisis. Internet connectivity is a joke, all types of computer hardware costs way more than other countries, and the model is to steal software. It's just always been that way. I applaud anyone who cares enough to try to help them out of this. Kudos.

Edited February 7, 2008 by dsys

[dsys]

About point 1.

Got caried away there - these are shared links, i think thailand only has a certain allowance so that's probably why the argument about "limited bandwidth " holds water. Hence the supposed improvement when the dedicated link comes on line.

[CosmicSurfer]

Demanding better service won't only benefit us ' the abused Farang', but also the Thai people and the Thai economy...

How many Multinational companies refuse to relocate here due to the horrid state of the IT industry.. and I mean the Basic infrastructure... Never mind the software piracy.

Even the level of IT education is sub-standard....

It's a proven fact that solid IT infrastructure will benefit Economic Growth. Is Thailand moving forward into the 21st Century.. or stuck in the 1980's???

One poster said that Thais were a proud people, another said that Thailand was NOT a Developed country... Wouldn't that be news to Thaksin and his buddies, who figure that Thailand was the center on the Know Asiatic Universe... Proud Thais shouldn't settle for an inferior product when the best is available if the market would demand it..

Proud Thais want to see a Growing and Vibrant country that would stand up favorably to any International Standards comparison... Or... are those that think of Thailand as an undeveloped country just too selfish in the protection of their own "cheap", pampered and bourgeois life-style, to try and help out their less educated and less well-off Host nation-mates to improve their lot in the world, and join the global community as an equal partner, rather then a poor begging 3rd cousin.

And of course the average Thai person is happy with their so-called Broadband, they have nothing to compare it to... How many have even traveled outside of Thailand?

But let me tell you, that when I was at TRUE Tower dealing with my Over-priced Contract, there were 2 Thai men there waiting to deal with the exact same problem... They were also pissed off.. and I don't read Thai, but I'll bet you 1,000 baht that there is more then one thread on Pantip .com that is bitching about this same issue.

All they need is someone to show them the way to deal with a company with Customer-service issues.

A "Limited Boycott" would work.. and If Thai Users are shown the way, I bet they would be happy to join in.

POWER to the PEOPLE

CS

[Gary A]

The last excuse I got from TOT Shitstar was that my telephone line wasn't very good ????????? I don't have a telephone line because they have no service here! Besides that, what does a telephone line have to do with satellite service? I didn't say anything because I was there to cancel the service anyways. All of the other excuses were plain and simple lies too. At his time I am using GPRS EDGE and it is better than the expensive Shitstar ever was. I truly resent being lied to and being told that the entire system is down or very slow. If they would have told the truth and said they didn't know what they were doing but were working on it, I would at least have felt better. If GPRS is working well, obviously the system is NOT down. It appears that we have no recourse and must grin and put up with incompetence or simply cancel.

[cali]

Thailand has "limited" bandwidth. I am going to go out on a limb here. If the ISPs asked to purchase 10 times more bandwidth than they do, then today Thailand would have 10 times more bandwidth than its current "limit". The "limit" is the sum of ISP demand. They tell CAT how much they want, CAT delivers it to them. CAT does not bother creating bandwidth no one will buy, hence the "limit".

I am all for deregulation and new cables, but as I said I don't think this in itself will change the ISP model of starve customers for bandwidth just like they do now. Nor would I expect the reliability issues to suddenly disappear.

[dsys]

Thailand has "limited" bandwidth. I am going to go out on a limb here. If the ISPs asked to purchase 10 times more bandwidth than they do, then today Thailand would have 10 times more bandwidth than its current "limit". The "limit" is the sum of ISP demand. They tell CAT how much they want, CAT delivers it to them. CAT does not bother creating bandwidth no one will buy, hence the "limit".

In principle I agree with this - hence my rant in response to point 1 - however the links into Thailand, while physically they may have more bandwidth available, politically there is a restraint on how much Thailand can use. Something to do with the construction costs of the links and the nature of them being shared. I may be way off mark here - and if I am then there is no excuse for CAT - perhaps somebody closer to the facts can answer, I think Monty(sorry if it wasn't you) was the one with the inside gen on this.

[dsys]

The last excuse I got from TOT Shitstar was that my telephone line wasn't very good ????????? I don't have a telephone line because they have no service here! Besides that, what does a telephone line have to do with satellite service? I didn't say anything because I was there to cancel the service anyways. All of the other excuses were plain and simple lies too. At his time I am using GPRS EDGE and it is better than the expensive Shitstar ever was. I truly resent being lied to and being told that the entire system is down or very slow. If they would have told the truth and said they didn't know what they were doing but were working on it, I would at least have felt better. If GPRS is working well, obviously the system is NOT down. It appears that we have no recourse and must grin and put up with incompetence or simply cancel.

that is just shocking service - i am on tot ip(crap)star and (touch wood ) have had good service from them. It all appears to depend on where you are.

[ade100]

The last excuse I got from TOT Shitstar was that my telephone line wasn't very good ????????? I don't have a telephone line because they have no service here! Besides that, what does a telephone line have to do with satellite service? I didn't say anything because I was there to cancel the service anyways. All of the other excuses were plain and simple lies too. At his time I am using GPRS EDGE and it is better than the expensive Shitstar ever was. I truly resent being lied to and being told that the entire system is down or very slow. If they would have told the truth and said they didn't know what they were doing but were working on it, I would at least have felt better. If GPRS is working well, obviously the system is NOT down. It appears that we have no recourse and must grin and put up with incompetence or simply cancel.

They are saving face. "Telling the truth and saying they don't know what they are doing" is not an option. This is Asia.

[dsys]

Thailand has "limited" bandwidth. I am going to go out on a limb here. If the ISPs asked to purchase 10 times more bandwidth than they do, then today Thailand would have 10 times more bandwidth than its current "limit". The "limit" is the sum of ISP demand. They tell CAT how much they want, CAT delivers it to them. CAT does not bother creating bandwidth no one will buy, hence the "limit".

In principle I agree with this - hence my rant in response to point 1 - however the links into Thailand, while physically they may have more bandwidth available, politically there is a restraint on how much Thailand can use. Something to do with the construction costs of the links and the nature of them being shared. I may be way off mark here - and if I am then there is no excuse for CAT - perhaps somebody closer to the facts can answer, I think Monty(sorry if it wasn't you) was the one with the inside gen on this.

couldn't edit the post wanted to add -

I think the demand you are talking about will never be driven by the consumer access market - it has to come from business demanding servers here in Thailand. Its a chicken and egg thing that every country has faced and Thailand is having problems facing up to this. As I said earlier - why is sanook.com/bangkokpost / this site hosted outside of Thailand, at least why do they not have mirrors in Thailand - answer, I think is, there are no high availablility servers.

Edited February 8, 2008 by dsys

[billd766]

Well Pete, Some of us live out in the boonies. It's not a matter of how much we pay. I was paying for the very best TOT Ipstar package available. The 1024/512 service. It stinks! I am now using GPRS which is faster than any Shitstar service I had. Some of us have no phone line and it's very unlikely that we will ever have one.

Hi Gary

I live out in the boonies 65 km southwest of Khampaeng Phet and only 4 km from the nearest landline.

We have been waiting 4 years now for a connection and one was promised for January

2007.

Maybe my calender is a bit fast but it still has not got here yet. I use AIS and EDGE which works fairly well most of the time but is a bit slow in the evenings. It costs me 500 baht for 250 hours of unlimited downloading except that it is limited by the speed of the download and that works out to around 8 hours a day.

If I spend that much time on line I may as well give up on life as there are much better things to do.

[Gary A]

Why do some people have decent service? How is it that some people are able to watch movies and TV when I could never even listen to an English speaking radio station here in Thailand? I don't believe the limited bandwidth BS either. If that were true everyone would be suffering.

[dsys]

Why do some people have decent service? How is it that some people are able to watch movies and TV when I could never even listen to an English speaking radio station here in Thailand? I don't believe the limited bandwidth BS either. If that were true everyone would be suffering.

IPSTART 2meg symetrical 4:1 con. ratio. 17,500 baht/month. I wouldn't call that good.

but its a dam good question.

Perhaps its down to browsing profiles -

I use sites in the UK mostly, hardly touch the US, not near Japan sometimes Singapore. My experience is going to be better than somebody who goes through servers in NewYork. but worse than somebody who works through BKK.

Edited February 8, 2008 by dsys

[Guest Reimar]

Why do some people have decent service? How is it that some people are able to watch movies and TV when I could never even listen to an English speaking radio station here in Thailand? I don't believe the limited bandwidth BS either. If that were true everyone would be suffering.

That can have different reasons!

Ok, the service I get from TRUE on 2560/512 is good, for ME! May I'm lucky to live in an area where not to many TRUE users on the same exchange and therefore the "sharing" is more limited which results in better connection.

I also tested the SME 2Mbps/2Mbps for 3 month and that service was more bad than my regular one and I stopped that! But in MY area are a lot companies, so it's possible that the SME Exchange has more connection to handle than the public Exchange in MY area. That can be while the usage for the public connection is better: in MY area!

The limited Bandwith is all but not BS! It is true that Thailand didn't have enough Bandwith for to handle all demands. But that isn't the resposibility of the ISP's!

The ISP's didn't apply direct for the international Bandwith only via CAT! If CAT didn't buy enough Bandwith all ISP's suck's in Thailand!

OK, the ISP's could order more Bandwith but from who? From CAT! Ok what they can get if CAT didn't have it? Nothing!

And why IP-Star sucks?

Even several reasons: 1. the system used in Thailand for the connection: User -> IP-Star Satellite ThaiCom X ->down to ShinCorp ThaiCom Center BKK ->ISP ->servers (local and international) by Landline; 2. Double sharing because the final connection is going via Landline and Speed because of extended time to place an connection to the Internet, 1,000 ms up ..................!!

But we have to keep in mind that we're living in an developing Country which has it advantages for many tings but dis-advantages as well. And everything which is classified as, let say in this word: modern, cost more but you get less than in developed Countries.

In all Countries and it doesn't matter where you live, you have you good sited and the bad once and you have to live with both of them.

And if you think that everything, or special that what you most like, is better in your Home Country, why you not take your Belongings and move back?

Cheers.

[dsys]

Reimar - please don't take offense at this - its not an attack on you I'm just using this as an example. I like living here I decided to but I'd like to see things improve. I'd like to help. I'm sure most Farang here feel this way. sorry if this turns into a Thai bashing contest its not my intention.

"And if you think that everything, or special that what you most like, is better in your Home Country, why you not take your Belongings and move back?

"

This is a common response to a complaint here. Its something that my wife would say or the people in the village. Complaints are not a reflection on the Thai people. I think this country needs to learn how to deal better with complaints and see them as a way of improving things. I yearn for the days that aresponse to a complaint here would be along the lines of -

How do you do things, how can we learn and improve this. or (god forbid) Sorry about that how can we make it better etc...

[Guest Reimar]

Reimar - please don't take offense at this - its not an attack on you I'm just using this as an example. I like living here I decided to but I'd like to see things improve. I'd like to help. I'm sure most Farang here feel this way. sorry if this turns into a Thai bashing contest its not my intention.

"And if you think that everything, or special that what you most like, is better in your Home Country, why you not take your Belongings and move back?

"

This is a common response to a complaint here. Its something that my wife would say or the people in the village. Complaints are not a reflection on the Thai people. I think this country needs to learn how to deal better with complaints and see them as a way of improving things. I yearn for the days that aresponse to a complaint here would be along the lines of -

How do you do things, how can we learn and improve this. or (god forbid) Sorry about that how can we make it better etc...

I don't take that as offense!

But in the many Years I living in Asia and LOS may my 2 hands are enough for to tell on how many days i do NOT has hear such negative complaints from so named Westener's! And 99 and more % of that Westener's are so classified "white" people!

You'll never hear that much complaint's from Asian people in your home country!

Is that a question of culture? Or what?

As I wrote, we're in an developing Country and NOT in an developed one! But as Guest, and we're Guest's doesn't matter how long we living here, we have to live with what that Country preserves for us and it is out of our Power and Responsibility to change anything, special the the Native of that Country did NOT like the change or can't afford it.

Cheers.

[RKASA]

I had good service even know that I posted to garya before about how I never had a problem, I was happy, but in early Dec it all changed in one day like the pull of a switch in service. Now daytime norm.

to Bangkok

Edited February 8, 2008 by Reimar
remove the Pic because of concern of the OP

[RKASA]

I was going to repair my last post picture, but Initializing Attachments..as I type is still not done and I can't edit or attach anything and as slow as I type its still loading

must be due to the great 39k connection I have to Bangkok with tot for only 1500baht a month.  Its still going clock shows 4 minutes to load a TV page great work ToT

[Thanh-BKK]

Hello.

I did first not wish to reply here.... but it seems to be an ongoing battle between those who complain about the shitty services in Thailand and those who say "we are guests so we need to adapt". To the latter - that philosophy doesn't really work. Here's why.

If we were GUESTS, we would be treated as such. But we aren't. We have as many RIGHTS as guests - zero, that is, yet we have the same obligations as the locals. And we have to pay the exact same amount of Baht for internet services as the locals do.

Now TRUE or other ISP's make no differences if the line has a Thai or an English name attached to it - some are lucky and get decenmt speeds, others don't. I myself can't complain about my DOWNload speeds generally - using Bit Torrent i get almost what i pay for, around the clock, i pay for 1.5 M and get roughly 1.3 M. I'm fine with that. What foxes me is the fact that instead of 512 K UPload i can hardly get 200 K, and THAT sucks if you're on private torrents sites with ratio requirements. Also what sucks is the time it takes for DNS requests to resolve - while i get the full speed (almost) on torrents or other forms of downloads, it takes literally an eternity for web sites to load. And it doesn't matter if i use TRUE's DNS servers or OpenDNS - same same.

Now "banding together" to "boycott" them will yield nothing except for laughter at TRUE's offices. They don't give half a hoot for what we require or "demand". They will just sell the bandwidth, which doesn't exist and that we refuse to pay for, to others. Demand is high now that prices came down (yes they DID come down - not literally as in "cheaper per month" but as in "the cheapest connection now gives you 3x the speed, if we have some available").

And having an expensive connection also doesn't always help - here at my office we have an ISSP leased-line with 512/512 "dedicated overseas bandwidth". This cost 26.000 Baht per MONTH. And according to the speed test site shown in the post above we get, on a good day, 400-ish down and 350-ish up. Calling ISSP and complaining yields a thai-typical excuse: "There must be some lag on that website". Sure.

Best regards.....

Thanh

PS by the way the argument "it'sa developing country" also has no value - because at least in regards to "immigration hurdles" Thailand is well on par with Europe..... but THERE you get WAY better internet!

Edited February 8, 2008 by Thanh-BKK

[nikster]

I did first not wish to reply here.... but it seems to be an ongoing battle between those who complain about the shitty services in Thailand and those who say "we are guests so we need to adapt". To the latter - that philosophy doesn't really work. Here's why.

I want to make a stand for the third camp, which says: Thailand has no outgoing internet bandwidth. That's the main problem. That's the only problem. This bandwidth cannot be easily purchased but rather submarine cables must be laid at a very high cost in money and time. One such cable is being laid right now.

If we complain, we need to complain about that, not about the ISPS who are dependent on said outgoing bandwidth.

Politics is to blame - politics needs to be pushed to do something about this. Break up the CAT near-monopoly. Create laws that allow ISPs to compete fairly and prevent monopolies. Make bandwidth a national priority. None of this is happening right now. None of this is even on the radar.

I am not saying we should accept crap service - rather I say, complain to the right people. Beating up the bus driver isn't going to help. We need more buses.

[Guest Reimar]

I was just thinking: Should I reply ot Not?

Because the comments of Thanh-BKK applies to my comments directly and I'll just try to state shortly what I meant. But I will NOT start an dicussion about that on the open forum to avoid to get personal to anybody which could easy happens.

The main question in Thanh's answer is: why we're NOT treated as Guest with all rights?!

Think about it by yourself but keep the following facts in mind:

1. How many of the Guest having an 100% legal Status?

1.1. Applies the legal Status to 100% to so named VisaRunner as well?

1.2. What's the limitations for to stay in Thailand with Tourist Visa?

2. How many of the so named Guest running an Business registered NOT to him?

2.1. How many of that even didn't having an Contract as Employee or so with his Company?

2.2. How many of them having an Working Permit?

2.3. How many of the paying the required Taxes?

Is that already enough? The list can be much, much longer!

Do you think the Thai Authorities didn't know about that all? They did know very well!

What's about the so named Bar-Owner's? They have all legal Documents: Working Permit, 1 year Visa, Employee Contract and so and so on!

Why the Thai's should give all of them the full rights because that humans just take everything, not giving something back, except they profit, but complaining about Thailand and the Thai people more than anything else!

Everybody of you know the nice words that people having for Thais and Thailand, I don'y need to show them here!

It's depend on where you've your contacts to Thais, you'll have much different experiences. But most of the Foreigner in Thailand and many of the permanet Resident Foreigners having contact's to the low class people mainly. You see them at all time on places like Nana pp in BKK, Pattaya and so on.

After spending nearly 37 years of my life in Asia and more than 2/3 of that in Thailand do you really think I don't know I talking from what?!

I get tired to talk about that things. And I don't mind what you think about me also! What I wrote is my position and that will NOT change. But one thing you all can believe me: I will never talk that bad about the People of that Country where I'm a Guest.

Cheers and Bye.

[dsys]

I did first not wish to reply here.... but it seems to be an ongoing battle between those who complain about the shitty services in Thailand and those who say "we are guests so we need to adapt". To the latter - that philosophy doesn't really work. Here's why.

I want to make a stand for the third camp, which says: Thailand has no outgoing internet bandwidth. That's the main problem. That's the only problem. This bandwidth cannot be easily purchased but rather submarine cables must be laid at a very high cost in money and time. One such cable is being laid right now.

If we complain, we need to complain about that, not about the ISPS who are dependent on said outgoing bandwidth.

Politics is to blame - politics needs to be pushed to do something about this. Break up the CAT near-monopoly. Create laws that allow ISPs to compete fairly and prevent monopolies. Make bandwidth a national priority. None of this is happening right now. None of this is even on the radar.

I am not saying we should accept crap service - rather I say, complain to the right people. Beating up the bus driver isn't going to help. We need more buses.

Where's that fence you're sitting on there. Move along a bit I think I'll join you.

[Thanh-BKK]

Hello

Just to clarify, Reimar - i didn't reply to a particular post such as yours, i just noted the general direction of replies (not only in this thread but all over the place) that some folks complain about absolutely everything in Thailand and others just take any kind of sh!t dumped on them saying "we are guests so we have to accept that".

I myself am standing pretty much in the middle - most things i do indeed accept because i KNOW it's not my country and i have to follow their rules however strange they may seem - yet on a few topics i can participate because i complain about them, too, such as lousy internet service from which thai people suffer just as much.

I wasn't asking "why don't we have more rights as guests", i was just stating that the bad internet service (and "service" in general) is what it is, and all complaining or "boycotting" won't change it the smallest bit. I also stated that it doesn't matter if you are Thai or Farang, using a cheap or an expensive connection - some get what they pay for, others don't. And i also stated that as for my private internet connection i am actually (right now!) quite happy with it, as i get almost the downspeeds i pay for, only the upspeeds are lacking but i can live with that.

As to the questions YOU asked, i can't answer them all - just so much: If you hold the appropriate visa, work permit, have your own company, pay taxes etc you are NO LONGER A GUEST, instead you become a HOST! "Tourists" are guests. If you run your own business and pay taxes to the Thai government just like a Thai, maybe even employ some thai staff, why in the world would you NOT get equal rights to the owner of the business next door, whose name is Somchai? Yet as a matter of fact, in Thailand you can invest BILLIONS and still they can kick you out tomorrow, you HAVE NO RIGHTS WHATSOEVER.

This is completely off-topic, but compare it with my country, Germany. Sure it is hard for a Thai to get a visa to get INTO Germany in first place. But see what you get for it...... you can buy as much land as you can pay for, even if you are on a tourist visa. The land is yours, you can build a fence around it and have the cops take care for that no Germans will enter! You can run a business 100% in your name. You can renew visas in-country. You can get a work permit which is completely unrestricted - work permit permits you to WORK, no matter where or as what. You can get married, and if you get married you get the work permit automatically! And if you stay married for 5 years you get German citizenship. Bingo. If you do NOT get married but stay in Germany legally for 10 years you get the citizenship too.

Oh and if you pay for 2 MB internet and get only 1.4 MB, you can sue the ISP and will win the case.

I left Germany because i fell in love with a Thai person (i have never been to Thailand before so knew nothing about the temples, beaches, smiles, traffic jams and other tourist attractions) and once here fell in love with the weather and the thai people in general. I found out later that "service" as such does not exist and that complaining leads nowhere. And that last one is what i wanted to stress here with my rep,ly (and hereby back on topic):

"Boycotting" TRUE or other ISP's will do nothing whatsoever to the quality of the available internet connections. They can't do anything about it, and if they could they probably wouldn't because they can get away with it.

Best regards.....

Thanh

[Guest Reimar]

One thing I had learned a long time ago special here at Thailand: there two main groups of Foreigner one which had get this Country in their Heart and don't want to live anywhere else for the rest of their life and the other group, which is the bigger one, they complain about the Country and their people but taking all benfit they can get without to "pay back" and "braking" any law to get out as much as possible.

That's hard words, I know but it's reality as well.

You can even easy find out more differences between that two groups but the main differences are that one from the first groups having all their "Papers" in an right shape and paying their Taxes and so on as everybody has to do in his own Country!

And about the Internet, Germany is an very developed Country as the most Western Countries and Thailand is still under developing. We shouldn't forget that. And that's not the Foreigner only but the Thais as well how's suffering, no difference. There was even a time in Germany while the Internet system was similar to the today's Thailand system.

We as Guest's, and we're Guest's in an Foreign Country even if we play the Role as Host, have to pay the same credit to that situation as the Thai people, no difference.

Cheers.

[onethailand]

I want to make a stand for the third camp, which says: Thailand has no outgoing internet bandwidth. That's the main problem. That's the only problem. This bandwidth cannot be easily purchased but rather submarine cables must be laid at a very high cost in money and time. One such cable is being laid right now.

If we complain, we need to complain about that, not about the ISPS who are dependent on said outgoing bandwidth.

Surely you meant incoming bandwidth? Thailand is hardly a server farm to the rest of the world...

The fault should be laid squarely at CAT's feet. As I recall, the regulations dictate that all ISPs purchase the majority of their bandwidth from CAT, and are limited in what additional bandwidth they may purchase from other parties.

Here is the current connectivity map for February 2008.

http://www.cat.net.th/internetmap/bigmap.html

Light blue lines are to the IIG - CAT's international gateway.

Green are domestic connections through one of two NIX (National Internet Exchange).

Orange are the ones which are independent connections to outside bandwidth suppliers. They will ALWAYS be smaller than the connection to the IIG. Even CAT's own ISP service (strangely enough, using yellow lines) has less independent bandwidth.

Dark blue lines are peering connections from IIG to other countries, mostly Asian.

The pink lines are the primary connections from IIG to outside bandwidth. As you can see, there is plenty of redundancy, but WAY too little total bandwidth. You can see that the total of all light blue connections, in terms of bandwidth, is significantly more than the available international bandwidth (pink) brought in by CAT.

I counted about 13.8Gb of international bandwidth to IIG. True (Asia Infonet) and TOT alone require 6.64Gb of bandwidth from IIG. Note also that TOT does not have any independent bandwidth, and True only 45Mb - and you can easily see why the problem is located at CAT. Only one provider - Reach, who I know little about - has independent bandwidth without being required to have a connection to IIG, but if I am not mistaken Reach is providing telecom services, not internet. And Pacific Internet is the only company to have more independent bandwidth because its parent company is in Singapore.

Edited February 8, 2008 by onethailand

[dave_boo]

One thing I had learned a long time ago special here at Thailand: there two main groups of Foreigner one which had get this Country in their Heart and don't want to live anywhere else for the rest of their life and the other group, which is the bigger one, they complain about the Country and their people but taking all benfit they can get without to "pay back" and "braking" any law to get out as much as possible.

That's hard words, I know but it's reality as well.

You can even easy find out more differences between that two groups but the main differences are that one from the first groups having all their "Papers" in an right shape and paying their Taxes and so on as everybody has to do in his own Country!

And about the Internet, Germany is an very developed Country as the most Western Countries and Thailand is still under developing. We shouldn't forget that. And that's not the Foreigner only but the Thais as well how's suffering, no difference. There was even a time in Germany while the Internet system was similar to the today's Thailand system.

We as Guest's, and we're Guest's in an Foreign Country even if we play the Role as Host, have to pay the same credit to that situation as the Thai people, no difference.

Cheers.

Reimar,

I find it odd that you would say that since there's a seedy sort who settles in Thailand, that automatically makes it acceptable to treat every foreign national with a substandard set ethics. And this is really what it boils down to, considering the kwai tee-em foreigner as simply something to fleece money from. And the fact that there exists a class based society where the rich Thai-Chinese, whom it appears you're enamored with, keep the general population subservient to further line their pockets and manage to point all problems at foreigners to keep the low and middle class attentions off what is the real problem: namely the crooks running the place.

Your assertion that foreigners don't give anything back to the country is a load of <deleted>. How many billions and billions of Baht have those bar owners generated for the country? Not only selling drinks, but keeping the whole bar system running, thus redistributing money from rich foreigners to poor upcountry families? And local tradesmen they've had to hire? Local merchants that have gotten richer because foreigners are coming in? Etc.

Also, you're confusing the state of the internet with the service provided by the company(s). Yes, at one point Germany's, and America's, internet infrastructure was at the point that Thailand's is now. However, there was and is a thing called consumer protection. What it boils down to is that since everyone is human (yes even those who don't flit around with Hi-So types), everyone deserves the same treatment.

I suppose from reading your posts that Thailand should be allowed to sell Ford Pintos(without the safety gas tanks) to foreigners simply because they're second class people and don't need the safety that a Thai should be afforded.

I have enjoyed your other posts in other threads, but this one has exposed a side that I hadn't expected.

If you do not wish to assert your right to be treated as human, that is your perogative.