Pattaya Better Wih The Bars Closed

[thaihome]

...Ask yourself this - how many national or multinational offices are here in pattaya? Virtually none. If I had money I would be building office developments not sh*tty get rich quick condos, and getting respectable national and multinational companies into this city. And why not build a university here (except for fear of predatory pervs).

...

This is where the discussion gets fuzzy. What is the geographic boundaries of this discussion?

I agree there are no multi nationals on Beach or Second Road. But within 40 km, there are many and most the hundreds of expats that work for them live in Pattaya. They don't do walking street much though.

Isn't already a large university (Asian College or something) very close?

TH

[patsfangr]

Exploitation. People don't get excited about corporations exploiting their fiefs, sweatshops working their coolies to the bone but prefix exploitation with the word sex and people have a coronary and take the sudden self righteous moral high road. The ironic thing is those being 'sexually exploited are earning more than their coolie counterparts. A lot of people work jobs they'd rather not, many people aren't paid what they think is fair. Sex is just part of the equation. I could care less if Pattaya has a red light district or not but it sure as hel_l isn't going to stop people from being taken advantage of because that's human nature.

Couldn't agree with you more strongly, wasabi. Sex is a primal human need, more so for males of the species than for females. Thus the creation of "the world's oldest profession." Is it a dangerous profession? It certainly is, particularly in the lowest "venues" where it is practiced. However, a great many professions are dangerous. How about being a cop, a fireman, a race car driver, a boxer, a fighter pilot, etc.? Every one of us who works, or has worked, for someone else in our lives is a prostitute. We each have different skills and services to offer in return for money. Some also get various degrees of intangible satisfaction from what they do. That's also true of some prostitutes, who realize that they are providing some form of needed comfort to their clients. (That, of course, is much more common among those working with a better class of clientele.). I would also add that, in places around the world where prostitution is legal, the girls are safer, and both they and their clientele are safer from disease, due to mandatory health regulations, etc..

More on topic to this thread, there is room for this profession here, as there is in virtually every city in the world. It can be practiced discreetly (should be legally, but that's another story), and within a safe environment; still leaving the streets and other entertainment options open to respecable tourists and families.

I side with those here who have said that it should be entirely possible to raise the economic level of the entire Pattaya area by simply putting an end to the overall sleeziness and rowdiness that is the predominant atmosphere of the area from Walking Street on the south to Pattaya Nua on the north; and Beach Road on the west to Third Road on the east. There are small cesspools elsewhere, but this is certainly the principle source of the stink in the city.

Clean it up. Put in some decent shops, restaurants, "respectable" bars and nightclubs, etc.; and provide a constant, honest, decently paid law enforcement presence. Pattaya can certainly be a very successful AND respectable resort city. We don't need the drunken riff raff (from ANY country) flooding this city because they know they can get cheap sex, and behave like crazed animals.

[APMann]

...Ask yourself this - how many national or multinational offices are here in pattaya? Virtually none. If I had money I would be building office developments not sh*tty get rich quick condos, and getting respectable national and multinational companies into this city. And why not build a university here (except for fear of predatory pervs).

...

This is where the discussion gets fuzzy. What is the geographic boundaries of this discussion?

I agree there are no multi nationals on Beach or Second Road. But within 40 km, there are many and most the hundreds of expats that work for them live in Pattaya. They don't do walking street much though.

Isn't already a large university (Asian College or something) very close?

I mean the actual physical construction of office blocks in downtown Pattaya so that head offices can move here, by the sea, to provide a better quailty of life for their employees than they have in polluted Bangkok, and to have better access to the industrial estates where many of their factories are located, rather than having to travel from Bangkok with its gridlocked traffic. Pattaya would be a great place for companies to relocate to.

I would also build a Pattaya-oriented university using public private funds, again right in the centre of the city. I don't call Asian University a Pattaya-based university.

Again, having a university here would brush up the image of the city.

Edited to make my comments distinsgushable from the original post

Edited February 25, 2008 by APMann

[Ulysses G.]

Exploitation. People don’t get excited about corporations exploiting their fiefs, sweatshops working their coolies to the bone but prefix exploitation with the word sex and people have a coronary and take the sudden self righteous moral high road. The ironic thing is those being ‘sexually exploited are earning more than their coolie counterparts. A lot of people work jobs they'd rather not, many people aren't paid what they think is fair. Sex is just part of the equation. I could care less if Pattaya has a red light district or not but it sure as hel_l isn't going to stop people from being taken advantage of because that's human nature.

Finally, some common sense!

[Humphrey Bear]

without the bars pataya would die

No. It would change, and be better for it. And maybe if people invested in proper businesses instead of go go bars and beer bars, maybe the Thais themselves would benefit by going into newly-available careers and proper jobs instead of selling themselves into - what shall we call it on this "ooh you can't say that" forum - "alternative services". And who could argue with that - unless you think sexual exploitation is the only reason to live or come on holiday here?

So - you want Pattaya to develop? As what?

Poor beaches, poor infrastructure, poor administration by the City Hall.

The reason Pattaya exists is for the current reputation. It will not attract tourists without the bars and shows. And the income is derived from those. The package-tours may continue from China, Korea, Russia. But package tours do not spend money with the local businesses. They spend money on the large hotels and organisers, who stash the money abroad.

If you don't like Pattaya as it stands - there are always alternatives - Brighton, Bournemouth, Miami, Cancun, Cebu, Cairns, Durban, Rio. Better beaches (except Brighton) and different off-beach facilities.

[thaihome]

...Ask yourself this - how many national or multinational offices are here in pattaya? Virtually none. If I had money I would be building office developments not sh*tty get rich quick condos, and getting respectable national and multinational companies into this city. And why not build a university here (except for fear of predatory pervs).

...

This is where the discussion gets fuzzy. What is the geographic boundaries of this discussion?

I agree there are no multi nationals on Beach or Second Road. But within 40 km, there are many and most the hundreds of expats that work for them live in Pattaya. They don't do walking street much though.

Isn't already a large university (Asian College or something) very close?

I mean the actual physical construction of office blocks in downtown Pattaya so that head offices can move here, by the sea, to provide a better quailty of life for their employees than they have in polluted Bangkok, and to have better access to the industrial estates where many of their factories are located, rather than having to travel from Bangkok with its gridlocked traffic. Pattaya would be a great place for companies to relocate to.

I would also build a Pattaya-oriented university using public private funds, again right in the centre of the city. I don't call Asian University a Pattaya-based university.

Again, having a university here would brush up the image of the city.

Edited to make my comments distinsgushable from the original post

Nope, I think "downtown" Pattaya will always be a resort town with all that goes with it. Ever been to Bike week in Daytona Beach. Now that is sleezeee

Or a strip club in Myrtle Beach?

Tiss the nature of the beach resort town...

TH

[Jingthing]

Look, there is alot of land in Pattaya/Jomtien. If someday the sleaze is all pushed a bit inland, like to Soi Bukow or Sunnee Plaza, that would be OK too. A beach resort large city has sleaze by definition, why should Pattaya be different? I would like to see a high speed train to the airport and Bangkok, an in town Uni is a good idea, some cultural venues for other than drag queen cabarets, such as international name comedy and musicians a la Las Vegas would be great. Most of all, what would it take for some CREATIVITY injection in the type of businesses farangs and Thais open? There is so much potential here to exploit and yet people just open the exact same type of businesses, often locating side by side to their competition.

Another area that could be exploited is art. Real Thai artists should move to Pattaya and establish a bohemian style district and have access to a fantastic buying market, tourists and locals. If hundreds of copy art shops can make a buck, surely there is room for a small gallery district offering original modern Thai art. Probably the logical place for that would be near TukCom, a gay district already.

Also, food. Pattaya is becoming a world class eating destination already. It has the most affordable farang food in Thailand, and its ethnic choices and quality now rivals Bangkok. This is another fantastic growth area, that is not sex related.

While it would be nice to have enlightened, non-corrupt leadership, I see every sign Pattaya is heading in the right direction, and I can easily envision that in 10 years time, its rep as only for sleaze will be well diminished.

Edited February 25, 2008 by Jingthing

[begsaresponse]

without the bars pataya would die

No. It would change, and be better for it. And maybe if people invested in proper businesses instead of go go bars and beer bars, maybe the Thais themselves would benefit by going into newly-available careers and proper jobs instead of selling themselves into - what shall we call it on this "ooh you can't say that" forum - "alternative services". And who could argue with that - unless you think sexual exploitation is the only reason to live or come on holiday here?

So - you want Pattaya to develop? As what?

Poor beaches, poor infrastructure, poor administration by the City Hall.

The reason Pattaya exists is for the current reputation. It will not attract tourists without the bars and shows. And the income is derived from those. The package-tours may continue from China, Korea, Russia. But package tours do not spend money with the local businesses. They spend money on the large hotels and organisers, who stash the money abroad.

If you don't like Pattaya as it stands - there are always alternatives - Brighton, Bournemouth, Miami, Cancun, Cebu, Cairns, Durban, Rio. Better beaches (except Brighton) and different off-beach facilities.

Well said Humphrey Bear and Jingthing too!!

The OP hasn't a clue because its not about having extremes and having no bars is an exteme. Yes Pattaya has changed since I first came here and will continue to change but I cannot support the idea that Pattaya would be better without bars.

Anyway sounds as if the OP has forgotten to put on his 'flak jacket'!!

Can't post a topic like this and not expect a reaction!

[wilko]

Since when has "CLOSED" meant "UP MARKET"??????

[wilko]

Look, there is alot of land in Pattaya/Jomtien. If someday the sleaze is all pushed a bit inland, like to Soi Bukow or Sunnee Plaza, that would be OK too. A beach resort large city has sleaze by definition, why should Pattaya be different? I would like to see a high speed train to the airport and Bangkok, an in town Uni is a good idea, some cultural venues for other than drag queen cabarets, such as international name comedy and musicians a la Las Vegas would be great. Most of all, what would it take for some CREATIVITY injection in the type of businesses farangs and Thais open? There is so much potential here to exploit and yet people just open the exact same type of businesses, often locating side by side to their competition.

Another area that could be exploited is art. Real Thai artists should move to Pattaya and establish a bohemian style district and have access to a fantastic buying market, tourists and locals. If hundreds of copy art shops can make a buck, surely there is room for a small gallery district offering original modern Thai art. Probably the logical place for that would be near TukCom, a gay district already.

Also, food. Pattaya is becoming a world class eating destination already. It has the most affordable farang food in Thailand, and its ethnic choices and quality now rivals Bangkok. This is another fantastic growth area, that is not sex related.

While it would be nice to have enlightened, non-corrupt leadership, I see every sign Pattaya is heading in the right direction, and I can easily envision that in 10 years time, its rep as only for sleaze will be well diminished.

maybe Pattaya is successful because it IS different!

[Jingthing]

maybe Pattaya is successful because it IS different!

If you're saying Pattaya gained fame from sleaze, yes, of course it did, it does, and it will. So did Rio, San Francisco, and New Orleans.

Edited February 25, 2008 by Jingthing

[APMann]

without the bars pataya would die

No. It would change, and be better for it. And maybe if people invested in proper businesses instead of go go bars and beer bars, maybe the Thais themselves would benefit by going into newly-available careers and proper jobs instead of selling themselves into - what shall we call it on this "ooh you can't say that" forum - "alternative services". And who could argue with that - unless you think sexual exploitation is the only reason to live or come on holiday here?

So - you want Pattaya to develop? As what?

As a modern, diversified city, with substantial career (not job) opportunites to people who as a result, may do better at school, or go too university to be able to work in 21st century workplaces, professions, businesses - look at Singapore if you don't believe it can happen. A more diversified and professional business base would also yield better tax receipts, to be employed in improving education standards for Thai kids, instead of pitchforking them into bars.

Poor beaches, poor infrastructure, poor administration by the City Hall.

All must change. All are changing, and they will continue to do so.

The reason Pattaya exists is for the current reputation. It will not attract tourists without the bars and shows. And the income is derived from those. The package-tours may continue from China, Korea, Russia. But package tours do not spend money with the local businesses. They spend money on the large hotels and organisers, who stash the money abroad.

It is now showing signs of age. Its current reputation is a disgrace to the city and Thailand. It will always attract tourists, just not go go bar slavering perverts (and anyway I am not saying ban them, just reduce their stranglehold on the local economy and move them eslewhere). The Russian tourist market will be one of the death knells of old Pattaya.

If just one "package tourist' spends, say 10,000 Baht in their whole holiday on food, booze and gifts, imagine what that does to the wider economy. If you go to any major department store right now it is packed with cheapskate Russians, still spending their money on gifts and goods. If there are 400,000 Russians in the resort this year, spending, let's say a very conservative 10,000 Baht each over a 2 week stay, ignoring the price of flights and hotels which doesn't get spread around, that is FOUR BILLION BAHT, or about GBP 61 million quid, or 116 million US$ going into the local economy. Set that against the beer bar and go go bar punters, whose circle of spending is very limited. They can still spend like that if they wish, but moved away in less prominent centres of the city.

If you don't like Pattaya as it stands - there are always alternatives - Brighton, Bournemouth, Miami, Cancun, Cebu, Cairns, Durban, Rio. Better beaches (except Brighton) and different off-beach facilities.

Yawn. Or how about his - I stay here and try to enourage foreigners and Thais to improve the standard of living for Thais who live here right across the board. And if you don't like inevitable change, or if you are uncomfortable with raising standards of education for Thai kids, or career prospects for Thai teenagers, and encouraging big businesses to set up in the city, and improving the reputation of Thailand and the general quailty of life in Pattaya YOU leave. How's that?

[APMann]

without the bars pataya would die

No. It would change, and be better for it. And maybe if people invested in proper businesses instead of go go bars and beer bars, maybe the Thais themselves would benefit by going into newly-available careers and proper jobs instead of selling themselves into - what shall we call it on this "ooh you can't say that" forum - "alternative services". And who could argue with that - unless you think sexual exploitation is the only reason to live or come on holiday here?

So - you want Pattaya to develop? As what?

Poor beaches, poor infrastructure, poor administration by the City Hall.

The reason Pattaya exists is for the current reputation. It will not attract tourists without the bars and shows. And the income is derived from those. The package-tours may continue from China, Korea, Russia. But package tours do not spend money with the local businesses. They spend money on the large hotels and organisers, who stash the money abroad.

If you don't like Pattaya as it stands - there are always alternatives - Brighton, Bournemouth, Miami, Cancun, Cebu, Cairns, Durban, Rio. Better beaches (except Brighton) and different off-beach facilities.

Well said Humphrey Bear and Jingthing too!!

The OP hasn't a clue because its not about having extremes and having no bars is an exteme. Yes Pattaya has changed since I first came here and will continue to change but I cannot support the idea that Pattaya would be better without bars.

Anyway sounds as if the OP has forgotten to put on his 'flak jacket'!!

I decided I didn't need it (except on Walking Street or Third Road)! Anyway, a surprising number of posters actually agree with this suggestion.

Can't post a topic like this and not expect a reaction!

You are correct. I am old enough and ugly enough to take it all on the chin without visible scarring.

[wilko]

maybe Pattaya is successful because it IS different!

If you're saying Pattaya gained fame from sleaze, yes, of course it did, it does, and it will. So did Rio, San Francisco, and New Orleans.

...and You're saying they're not different?

[ProfessorFart]

So - you want Pattaya to develop? As what?

As a modern, diversified city, with substantial career (not job) opportunites to people who as a result, may do better at school, or go too university to be able to work in 21st century workplaces, professions, businesses - look at Singapore if you don't believe it can happen. A more diversified and professional business base would also yield better tax receipts, to be employed in improving education standards for Thai kids, instead of pitchforking them into bars.

Sadly APMann seems to be missing one huge factor here. Pattaya is what it is today because of (sex) tourism. It only continues to grow because of same. Unavoidable fact. To suggest that moving 'upmarket' (What a ridiculous term) will improve things morally is a nonsense.

Pattaya 'city' is a tourist resort- albeit a large one- not a city. Its very foundations are build on tourism. Remove that and it would collapse back into the sea. Close the bars, remove the biggest attraction Pattaya has, as well as the biggest souce of potential income for the Thai people and they will slope off back home leaving Pattaya a ghost town.

Yup sure the Russians are here in numbers at the moment but thats a fad and another destination will be Moscow's favourite in a few years time. Such is tourism.

In conclusion. AP's replies are mere wishful thinking from someone who's had his fun in the bars and resents those who are still having theirs.... like me.....

[Jingthing]

I don't think this is an either/or proposition. Pattaya started on sex. It is becoming a major city. You wouldn't want to close the bars, or the restaurants, or the shopping malls, or the beach, such crazy black and white thinking.

[Tammi]

Here we go again! All the sleaze should be sent to a new walled city in the boonies - so much easier to police.

But there's hope yet for Pattaya - just look at all the new beautiful building already done or being done between Beach Road and 2nd Road and on 2nd Road. All the sleaze will go away as decent hotels and shopping malls move in. And maybe new mayor will get rid of the west side of Walking Street.

For Brit.

[wilko]

Yeah like Amsterdam? Hamburg? etc...

[ProfessorFart]

I dispute the argument that Pattaya is becoming a city. That's a nonsense. It's nothing of the sort. It's a large resort town at best. The economy is 100% based around tourism. It's a large tourist town.

Pattaya simply doesn't have the foundations required for a city in the sense that the misguided APMann seems to see in his wild imagination. There are no established Thai universities here, not even any colleges. There is little indigenous population - most of the population are economic migrants. Tourism asides, there is not even any infrastructure here to support other industries. I could go on and on as to why Pattaya would die if they closed the bars. It's just Human Geography 101 kinda stuff really. Plain common sense.

Sorry to rant but it gets my goat when holier than thou blokes who came to Pattaya for the same reason we all did in the first place - women and fun - then want to see it all change just because they've been here a few months, got what they want out of the bars and suddenly seem to think they know whats best for the place.

[APMann]

I dispute the argument that Pattaya is becoming a city. That's a nonsense. It's nothing of the sort. It's a large resort town at best. The economy is 100% based around tourism. It's a large tourist town.

Pattaya simply doesn't have the foundations required for a city in the sense that the misguided APMann seems to see in his wild imagination. There are no established Thai universities here, not even any colleges. There is little indigenous population - most of the population are economic migrants. Tourism asides, there is not even any infrastructure here to support other industries. I could go on and on as to why Pattaya would die if they closed the bars. It's just Human Geography 101 kinda stuff really. Plain common sense.

Sorry to rant but it gets my goat when holier than thou blokes who came to Pattaya for the same reason we all did in the first place - women and fun - then want to see it all change just because they've been here a few months, got what they want out of the bars and suddenly seem to think they know whats best for the place.

It's interesting just how scared and uncomprehending some people are of impending change, when they think their "interests" will be threatened (Which they won't be - they will always be able to get some somewhere, and as has been repeated, that's fine and inevitable, just away from downtown areas).

Of course Pattaya is a city - it's the second largest in Thailand and the wealthiest by tourist income. The council is called Pattaya City council, not "town council".

And who cares what it was founded on - I don't give a monkeys about what went on before. Why can't you embrace positive change for the future?

It sounds like a lot of people wish to deny the Thais an opportunity to improve themselves, the city and the country. Why is that I wonder?

[wilko]

I dispute the argument that Pattaya is becoming a city. That's a nonsense. It's nothing of the sort. It's a large resort town at best. The economy is 100% based around tourism. It's a large tourist town.

Pattaya simply doesn't have the foundations required for a city in the sense that the misguided APMann seems to see in his wild imagination. There are no established Thai universities here, not even any colleges. There is little indigenous population - most of the population are economic migrants. Tourism asides, there is not even any infrastructure here to support other industries. I could go on and on as to why Pattaya would die if they closed the bars. It's just Human Geography 101 kinda stuff really. Plain common sense.

Sorry to rant but it gets my goat when holier than thou blokes who came to Pattaya for the same reason we all did in the first place - women and fun - then want to see it all change just because they've been here a few months, got what they want out of the bars and suddenly seem to think they know whats best for the place.

It's interesting just how scared and uncomprehending some people are of impending change, when they think their "interests" will be threatened (Which they won't be - they will always be able to get some somewhere, and as has been repeated, that's fine and inevitable, just away from downtown areas).

Of course Pattaya is a city - it's the second largest in Thailand and the wealthiest by tourist income. The council is called Pattaya City council, not "town council".

And who cares what it was founded on - I don't give a monkeys about what went on before. Why can't you embrace positive change for the future?

It sounds like a lot of people wish to deny the Thais an opportunity to improve themselves, the city and the country. Why is that I wonder?

City is not a definitive word...especially when translated from Thai.

However to say that there are no Universities here is also not a definition. There are of course several Universities and tertiary educational establishments within the Pattaya catchment area.

I think where people are making a mistake is looking at Pattaya on its own. The postal address for Pattaya does not even include the word Pattaya in it, it is "Banglamung".

I think one would get nearer the truth if one were to look at CHONBURI as a whole....the fact is that this is the industrial heartland of Thailand and recession or not this will still be the main labour attracting area outside Bkk which it adjoins anyway.

If you look at development along the coast , it is unrestricted and galloping....this means that within a decade the S.E. seaboard will be one huge conurbation called Chonburi of which Pattaya will be the resort suburb like Bondi or Brighton even.

The kinds of people who will want to live here will include not just foreigners and not just holidaymakers , it will be people (Thai AND foreign) from local and Bkk industries who will want a holiday/week-end condo etc and being Thailand they will want some damned good well priced brothels too!

[harleyclarkey]

Right then dear ... Lets put on the kettle for a nice cup of tea and a bikkie, and then we'll have sex, shall we.

Naka.

Nice one Naka...make mine strong!!!

[Tolley]

Pattaya will never become a world class anything.....sorry not possible....it doesn't have the required infrastructure and it certainly doesn;t have the natural beauty.

Neither of these things are going to change.

Pattaya does what it does reasonably well.

It is a relatively cheap tourist destination with cheap hotels and cheap food.

It is also has a famous nightlife which will probably continue because this is part of its marketing appeal.

Pattaya will never be able to compete with Phuket or Hua Hin or some of the Malaysian tourist destinations but it has its niche.

As for the beer bars and the number of them well there are obviously way too many and market forcess will sort this out eventually.

I have become very disillusioned with a lot of the beer bars because they are often over priced for beer and water down the spirits too much.

I have started to prefer to go to places like Gullivers where you get nice facilities and a proper drink and in the end it is probably not mcuh more expensive that your average beer bar.

No choice for me.

Pattaya may change around the margins a bit and the Russians are the flavour of the day at the moment but i don't see any earth shattering changes on the horizon.

[ray23]

You know it's interesting here in Udon we have had a large number of people relocate from Pattaya. Usually they complain there is nothing to do. Well partially true. They want the excitment that Pattaya offers, and it is just not here. Sometimes these people can get very angry.

Pattaya to me is like Vegas in the states, a great place to visit and enjoy. But not what I want as a home.

Will it change probably to some extent Udon certianly has in the past five years.

Will it be a good change, maybe. Udon now has many of the items most farrang shop for. But along with that there has been a changed not only with the Thia's who work in the downtown area, but farrangs a well. When I firs came here I never worried about being op out very late at night, with a few t many under the belt. The Thai' beleive it or not really took care of us stupid guys I actually had some walk me home to make sure I would be safe. Not so sure it would be a good idea these days. Farrangs when I first came here ewveryone always greeted one another, not so these days. These days just about everyone walking around is looking pretty gloomy. You greet them and yo get that look maybe I should hide my wallet

So changes will happen but not all of the cahnge will be something to look forward to.

Me I would rather take the long trip for shopping and have things the way they were when I adopted Udon for my home. Not going to happen change is normal. By the way you couldn't get a beer in a bar here either

[Jingthing]

Pattaya will never become a world class anything

Oh, please. We are working on the other stuff. And I still maintain, it has some of the best nonstop people watching in the world. Also, anyone who doesn't realize Pattaya is now a major Thai city really has no credibility.

Edited February 26, 2008 by Pattaya_Fox
Inappropriate phrases removed

[Jingthing]

maybe Pattaya is successful because it IS different!

If you're saying Pattaya gained fame from sleaze, yes, of course it did, it does, and it will. So did Rio, San Francisco, and New Orleans.

...and You're saying they're not different?

So sorry, I am not following you.

[rott]

making the city a younger, more attractive, refreshingly family-oriented destination instead of the scum of European jails being unleashed on us.

APMann

The world is full of ''family-oriented destinations'', what's wrong with having one Pattaya in the world?

The place is continually (if slowly) changing and evolving in the direction you favour, and it's never as bad as people like you make out.

A wet Sunday afternoon in Bournemouth circa 1955 it'll never be, enjoy it for what it is while it still is.

[Humphrey Bear]

I have just found this in the on-line COSMOS holiday brochure.

I thought there were laws in England protecting the consumer from such blatant lies.

INTRODUCTION TO PATTAYA

Why pick holidays to Pattaya? Simple really, you won't find better beaches anywhere in Asia! Yet there's more to your Pattaya holiday than mile upon mile of golden sandy beach. A Cosmos package holiday to Pattaya is your passport to nightlife that although often a little outré is never anything less than vibrant. Those looking for tranquillity will look elsewhere, those looking for a cheap package deal to one of Thailand's livliest and most popular resorts won't be disappointed. Bag a cheap deal to Pattaya today and you'll have an exciting holiday to look forward to.

[harleyclarkey]

Y

Let me deal with your thoroughly discourteous remarks by referring back to your own presumably enlightened and well-thought out question posed in your earlier post:

Just who do you think are being exploited? The local girls, and boys, or the unfortunate foreigner who in many cases has his life ruelly stripped away from him both financially and emotionally.

The question is phrased by you so that I can agree that only one of these two groups is being exploited, and if I presumably agree with you that it is the latter, then the former aren't. You know by my posts that I think it is the former group.

If you instead think it is the poor foreigner being exploited, then you are, on the terms of your own either/or question, agreeing that the boys and girls are not being exploited, and I stongly disagree. Had you used "and" it would have been different, but you chose to use "or", and you seem like a clever bloke, so there must have been intent.

I think the status quo (and advocating it) brutalises a whole slice of Thai life, and there is a price to pay for that. Sadly we see it every week in the press and on TV.

Discourteous remarks of mine?? You are surely joking? Your reply/remark to me was disgraceful. My reply to you was surprisingly polite and far less than I would have liked considering your appalling and unfounded remark (and indeed accusation) to me that I "advocate sexually brutalising a population of a country". This stated by you about me on a public forum without any basis in fact. You have NOT shown anywhere in my original reply that I advocate anything like such behaviour and you will not be able to show it as it is not there. Wherever you got such bizarre and whacky ideas it did not come from my reply.

You have not really thought this brutalisation thing out fully. Sexual brutalisation happens in your country (UK?) as it does in other parts of the world. Take Steve Wright as an example. I would consider the actions of this cold callous murderer of 5 women to be correctly referred to as "sexual brutalisation" as indeed the Russian who strangled and mutilated over 50 women, probably more. I personally consider a guy (inc. a lot of members here) going to a bar, meeting a girl, chatting and drinking with her and then as 2 mature adults going off together with whatever (if any) deal is struck to be in an altogether different category. Have you ever referred to any of the brutal Pimps in America? The same goes for Europe and Russia and Africa?? This is sexual brutalisation and I am against this 100%. If you are referring to child or enslaved sexual exploitation, then say so. I abhor these practices. How many people here on Thai Visa do you think go to bars and meet women?? Are we all deviants according to you?? Are we all advocating the sexual brutalisation of Thai people?

I personally have not seen any brutalisation of women in Thailand. The ones I meet are all free women and free to go, where and with whom, as they wish at any time. I do accept there are some who are not so free, but I have not seen this and would not be interested in any establishment where the girl did not have the right to choose her own path.

I asked who was being exploited. The answer could have been 1 or the other or BOTH. There was no intent as you dreamed up.

By declaring that there is sexual brutalisation in Thailand you implicate every Thai Visa member. We are all therefore involved either by taking part in this brutalisation or condone it by our silence.

I know the vast majority here are not involved and do not need to bang on about something that we do not see or take part in. If there was such brutality as you state they are far too many decent people on this site to create a roar about it.

Your initial remark to me about my advocating something I would abhor is totally unacceptable and uncalled for.

Edited February 25, 2008 by harleyclarkey

[Humphrey Bear]

I personally have not seen any brutalisation of women in Thailand. The ones I meet are all free women and free to go, where and with whom, as they wish at any time. I do accept there are some who are not so free, but I have not seen this and would not be interested in any establishment where the girl did not have the right to choose her own path.

Although I agree far more with your line of reasoning than the rather infantile dreams of the OP, I would here comment that many of the girls one meets in bars, discos, wherever, are coerced into their profession by their idle, layabout husband / boyfriend / family.

That they don't show this during their time with you speaks well of their professionalism, but there is a dark side.

But Pattaya will never develop as a high-class commercial centre for the sophisticates. It just ain't that sophisticated, thank goodness.